Arab Spring, Round 2

[jimmy olsen]

Here's an article on that clash with Republican Guard

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/08/19347026-42-dead-322-hurt-in-clashes-near-pro-morsi-sit-in?lite

[crazy canuck]

Assuming the next leader is a democratic one, I don't know that a Washington or a Mandela would be able to succeed. The problem with the coup is that a presumably large portion of population won't view the new administration as legitimate. Coupled with huge problems in Egypt, I don't think this is an opportunity for success.

Depends what you think "success" might be.  Egypt could very much use a Mandela who will not use power to further narrow political interests but rather will try to govern in an inclusive manner.  That seems to be one of the major problems with the Brotherhood.

Would that even be such a great thing? It isn't like South Africa is a lovely place post-Mandela.

A lot better than the alternative could have been.

[Admiral Yi]

So they've named Mohamd Elbaradei as the next Egyptian PM to be overthrown by the army.

They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.

You are right but good luck with that. "Government isn't there to do stuff for people" is a novel concept to a significant portion of the world.

What is it there for, Tamas.

It's right there in the post Tamas quoted: to resolve differences of opinion.

[Razgovory]

It's right there in the post Tamas quoted: to resolve differences of opinion.

That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does.  Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.

[Admiral Yi]

That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does.  Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.

Going to court is not the only way to resolve differences.

Coming to a group decision when individuals have different preferences is very much the objective of democracy. 

[DGuller]

Coming to a group decision when individuals have different preferences is very much the objective of democracy.

I hope there are other objectives out there.

[Razgovory]

That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does.  Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.

Going to court is not the only way to resolve differences.

Coming to a group decision when individuals have different preferences is very much the objective of democracy.

That's still really a means.  Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives.  Still, that's presumably doing stuff for people.

[Valmy]

That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does.  Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.

Well if that isn't than neither is 'doing stuff for people'.  Pretty sure the ancient Sumerians didn't create all those governments to do that.

[Admiral Yi]

That's still really a means.  Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives.  Still, that's presumably doing stuff for people.

OK Raz, what is the true objective of democracy?

[Razgovory]

That's still really a means.  Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives.  Still, that's presumably doing stuff for people.

OK Raz, what is the true objective of democracy?

To provide required and desired services to the citizenry.

[Maximus]

That's still really a means. 

What is government if not a means?

Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives.

Why?

[Razgovory]

Cause it's circular logic.

[Admiral Yi]

Cause it's circular logic.

No it's not.  Timmy wants a colony on Mars.  You want a bigger disability check.  The purpose of democracy is decide which one we, as a collective, will do.

The purpose of democracy is not plant a colony on Mars.

[Maximus]

Not at all. "objectives" implies that there is more than one objective in play(as does common sense), so one objective can reference another without causing a referential loop.

[Razgovory]

Cause it's circular logic.

No it's not.  Timmy wants a colony on Mars.  You want a bigger disability check.  The purpose of democracy is decide which one we, as a collective, will do.

The purpose of democracy is not plant a colony on Mars.

Okay, and tell me how that fits with what Tamas said then.