Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Duque de Bragança]

I love France, though. It may seem an odd distinction, but it's there.

Well that's fair. Many French people would agree.

Yeah, self-loathing is a big thing around there, specially among the left.

I would imagine that Otto's views are probably the same as most French people 

On this most important matter, yes. 

[mongers]

Epic strawman, do point out to me where I said this.

Of course -

Gaby, I think you're missing that the extreme right in Britain is now on the march, it'll feed off of any political indecision and take advantage of that vacuum.

What's now kicking off within the Labour party is a godsend to them, they can reposition themselves as the real voice of the British working class in those former labour heartlands.

What's going to be UKIP's platform now though? They essentially just achieved the party's raison d'être. Damn, it's even the name of the party.

Use Immigrants Out as a tool to gain political power and make the UK a bastion of the extreme right.

FYP

Perhaps you would like to clarify your position?

The first post is about the political vacuum we currently have and how the extreme right is beginning to take advantage of that, after all we've already had the  political assassination of a Labour MP.
And as I said the extremist hope to replace labour as the voice of the working class. And given the implosion of the labour party I see no reason to doubt they couldn't make some headway in that.

Your second quote of mine, isn't about what I think is likely to happen, but I was outlining what UKIP might think was it's way forward in the UK, rather than them just packing up and retiring.

I don't doubt a significant UKIP presences in the commons would be an active representation of the extreme right in parliament. Of course there are honourable members of that party, but I'm not counting Nigel Farage as one, nor the large majority of the ordinary members I've spoken with who seem to be racists to one degree or other.

[Agelastus]

I don't doubt a significant UKIP presences in the commons would be an active representation of the extreme right in parliament. Ofcourse there are honourable member of that party, but I'm not counting Nigel Farage as one, nor the large majority of the ordinary members I've spoken with who seem to be racists to one degree or other.

And as I've pointed out, if they do start acting like the racist Far Right they'll be electorally dead in a year. The high point for the BNP was a 100 local councillors and 2 Euro MEPS at the height of the Financial Crisis. And, as noted, the Far Right did not advance to power, or anywhere even within a thousand miles of it, in the 1930s under much more favourable conditions.

You and Tamas should be cheering if Farage and the other senior UKIP people are that stupid.

So no, I don't see a significant UKIP presence in the Commons as being an active representation of the extreme right in parliament. I stand by my comment that you and Tamas are over-reacting. I will withdraw the word "hysterical" however as it's poor form to use that term in a debate.

[Sheilbh]

Incredible scenes today. Corbyn invoked Jo Cox then attacked his own party from the dispatch box for factional infighting (by a man who's only ever known factional infighting) causing Labour MPs to laugh, shake their heads, point their fingers and shout 'resign' at their own leader

[mongers]

Incredible scenes today. Corbyn invoked Jo Cox then attacked his own party from the dispatch box for factional infighting (by a man who's only ever known factional infighting) causing Labour MPs to laugh, shake their heads, point their fingers and shout 'resign' at their own leader

Damn I missed that, only caught the Cameron 'What me gov, wasn't my fault, honest' routine.

[Valmy]

Surely if that many people oppose a party leader they can just get rid of them? Because if they cannot, that seems like a great idea designed to create lots of splinter parties and general political instability.

But then the British seem to be embracing destabilization and fragmentation recently so maybe they can't.

[mongers]

I don't doubt a significant UKIP presences in the commons would be an active representation of the extreme right in parliament. Ofcourse there are honourable member of that party, but I'm not counting Nigel Farage as one, nor the large majority of the ordinary members I've spoken with who seem to be racists to one degree or other.

And as I've pointed out, if they do start acting like the racist Far Right they'll be electorally dead in a year. The high point for the BNP was a 100 local councillors and 2 Euro MEPS at the height of the Financial Crisis. And, as noted, the Far Right did not advance to power, or anywhere even within a thousand miles of it, in the 1930s under much more favourable conditions.

You and Tamas should be cheering if Farage and the other senior UKIP people are that stupid.

So no, I don't see a significant UKIP presence in the Commons as being an active representation of the extreme right in parliament. I stand by my comment that you and Tamas are over-reacting. I will withdraw the word "hysterical" however as it's poor form to use that term in a debate.

Well time will tell.

[Agelastus]

Under just about any other circumstances I'd be calling for the metaphorical popcorn.

Maybe I should, anyway; regardless of numbers the SNP has been the second most important political party in our country since the 2015 election.

I'd definitely replace a party name in Kinnock Junior's comments about who should be the Deputy Head of the negotiating team for Brexit.

[garbon]

Epic strawman, do point out to me where I said this.

Of course -

Gaby, I think you're missing that the extreme right in Britain is now on the march, it'll feed off of any political indecision and take advantage of that vacuum.

What's now kicking off within the Labour party is a godsend to them, they can reposition themselves as the real voice of the British working class in those former labour heartlands.

What's going to be UKIP's platform now though? They essentially just achieved the party's raison d'être. Damn, it's even the name of the party.

Use Immigrants Out as a tool to gain political power and make the UK a bastion of the extreme right.

FYP

Perhaps you would like to clarify your position?

The first post is about the political vacuum we currently have and how the extreme right is beginning to take advantage of that, after all we've already had the  political assassination of a Labour MP.
And as I said the extremist hope to replace labour as the voice of the working class. And given the implosion of the labour party I see no reason to doubt they couldn't make some headway in that.

Your second quote of mine, isn't about what I think is likely to happen, but I was outlining what UKIP might think was it's way forward in the UK, rather than them just packing up and retiring.

I don't doubt a significant UKIP presences in the commons would be an active representation of the extreme right in parliament. Of course there are honourable members of that party, but I'm not counting Nigel Farage as one, nor the large majority of the ordinary members I've spoken with who seem to be racists to one degree or other.

Are you kidding me with this shit? Though he posted them in reverse order, that first post was actually your reply to me when I called out on the post listed before it. I guess we have it straight from your mouth then that the post I took issue with was ridiculous and the follow-on post was apparently unrelated.

[Agelastus]

Surely if that many people oppose a party leader they can just get rid of them? Because if they cannot, that seems like a great idea designed to create lots of splinter parties and general political instability.

But then the British seem to be embracing destabilization and fragmentation recently so maybe they can't.

As I commented above, blame the people who decided what the big political parties needed was more "democracy" in the way they picked their leaders.

Way back when (ie. the Sixties for the Tories and the Seventies for Labour) the Tories didn't even have an election, just "soundings" and the Labour party's MPs selected their leader without reference to local party members or the Unions.

[Valmy]

As I commented above, blame the people who decided what the big political parties needed was more "democracy" in the way they picked their leaders.

But a party leader is supposed to be beholden to the party officials...if he or she is not then what the hell is keeping the party together? Britain seems to be eagerly embracing all the horrible things its constitution was supposed to prevent

[Agelastus]

As I commented above, blame the people who decided what the big political parties needed was more "democracy" in the way they picked their leaders.

But a party leader is supposed to be beholden to the party officials...if he or she is not then what the hell is keeping the party together? Britain seems to be eagerly embracing all the horrible things its constitution was supposed to prevent

Why?

The system used to be that

Party Leaders were beholden to their MPs, who selected them.

MPs were beholden to their local constituency parties, who selected them.

The local constituency parties were ultimately beholden to the pro-their party voters in their constituency who elected their choice of MP.

It worked.

Now we have party leaders directly beholden to their party members and we have a right royal mess. Although Corbyn's election was the fault of senior MPs being to clever by half as much as a direct fault of the system that was set up, faulty as it is.

[Sheilbh]

That's a very Tory perspective.

The real change in Labour has been the empowerment of members at the expense of the unions.

Still amazed at Labour deposing a leader. This never happens

[Sheilbh]

Also Corbyn is really the fault of idiot MPs nominating a candidate they opposed to 'broaden the debate'.

[Valmy]

Why?

Indeed. No idea why.

The system used to be that

Party Leaders were beholden to their MPs, who selected them.

MPs were beholden to their local constituency parties, who selected them.

The local constituency parties were ultimately beholden to the pro-their party voters in their constituency who elected their choice of MP.

It worked.

Now we have party leaders directly beholden to their party members and we have a right royal mess. Although Corbyn's election was the fault of senior MPs being to clever by half as much as a direct fault of the system that was set up, faulty as it is.

Right. The previous system was designed logically. Now it seems designed to rip the parties apart.