Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[alfred russel]

What we need know is a foreign war to bring the country together. *


Worked for someone in '82.






* I'm not being serious.

Given a little time and the right circumstances, things might be heating up again in Northern Ireland. 

[mongers]

What makes you think he ever left it?

Next year say hello to President Trump for me.

[Sheilbh]

Some notes from inside the PLP meeting:

Inside account of Labour MPs' attacks on Jeremy Corbyn
The charges against the Labour leader as set out by his own MPs.
By   TOM MCTAGUE 6/27/16, 9:35 PM CET Updated 6/27/16, 10:04 PM CET
LONDON — At an extraordinary meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the House of Commons Monday, Jeremy Corbyn fought for his political life.

MP after MP lined up to attack the Labour leader and demand his immediate resignation, according to several MPs who were at the meeting. Corbyn point blank refused.

After leaving the packed private meeting, where a motion of no confidence against him was formally moved, the Labour leader headed straight to a protest on Parliament Square which had been quickly arranged by Momentum, the pressure group set up to defend his leadership.

Up to 3,000 hard-line supporters gathered, chanting "Tories out, Corbyn in," booing Tony Blair and the Labour MPs who had moved against their leader.

John McDonnell, Corbyn's closest ally and shadow chancellor, addressed the crowd first, announcing that the Labour leader would not resign and would stand again if there was another leadership election. "We're not going anywhere," he declared to huge cheers. Corbyn took to the stage next, equally defiant.

The Labour Party now faces an internal constitutional crisis, unable to remove a leader his MPs will not serve.

MPs emerged shell-shocked from the meeting, and told POLITICO they were contemplating the very real possibility that it will have to split. The Parliamentary Labour Party is now considering electing its own leader in a move which would essentially create a separate party. This nuclear option is being referred to by MPs as a "universal declaration of independence."

Here is the astonishing first-hand account of the hour-long meeting from one MP who took notes throughout:
Ian Murray, Edinburgh South
"It's not about you Jeremy. You're not just letting the party down, but the whole country."

Bridget Phillipson, Houghton and Sunderland South
"You're not fit to be prime minister and you've got to resign."

Alan Johnson, West Hull and Hessle and leader of the Labour In campaign
"I fought the [EU referendum] campaign and I take my responsibility, but you've got to take yours. Your office did not even turn up for the weekly meetings."

Helen Goodman, Bishop Auckland
"You just don't get it on immigration. You've got John McDonnell there in the background like Marc Antony."

Clive Efford, Eltham
"I gave you the benefit of the doubt. It's not about yourself Jeremy but you're not a prime minister and you're not electable."

Chris Matheson, Chester
"You've got to step down."

Chris Bryant, Rhonda
"You're not uniting the party. You've got no vision. The only person who can break this logjam is you by resigning."

Ivan Lewis, Bury South
"It's time to be honest with yourself. You're not a leader. You need to go for the sake of the party."

Margaret Hodge, Barking & Dagenham
"At this moment of grave danger, we simply cannot allow the party to flounder, become utterly irrelevant to the political debate and disintegrate into a second-rate pressure group. Make no mistake — unless we listen to our voters, our party faces political oblivion."

[frunk]

Would it be preferable to break up countries etc. through a 50+1 vote of elected representatives?  Or two maintain a status quo opposed by 50+1 % of the population?

Any such momentous decisions submitted to a referendum should always require a higher threshold of support.  Every society has low points where a thin majority will dislike the current situation.  That shouldn't be a criteria for big generational changes.  I'd say at least 55 preferably 60%.  Changes like this are difficult to roll back from once executed and there's a large societal and economic cost to them.  Require a bigger swing of opinion rather than the theoretical 2 people changing their minds. 

If you get a successful Brexit or Scottish independence referendum with 60+% mandate there won't be waffling on it.  It's a large enough margin that there's little thought given to "oh, well if a couple of percent of people voted differently the majority would want to stay, maybe we should have another referendum".  It means another referendum would take at least a 20% swing the other way to reverse.

[Sheilbh]

How is it right that the status quo can only need 45%+1? Our entire system is based on cruel but simple maths: first past the post, 50%+1 votes in the Commons can abolish the Monarchy and so on. We don't have super-majorities and personally I disagree with them.

There's not waffling - though Boris did suggest two referendums before the campaign - there's just contempt from people who were Leavers. They need to stop moaning, accept the result and start working out what they want to do with it.

Edit: Really intrigued by the 1000 British Eurocrats who will apparently keep their jobs after Brexit.

[garbon]

We don't have super-majorities and personally I disagree with them.

I still don't really understand that position. But then I don't think I ever will as you evinced the same when the whole Scottish bit was going down.

[Sheilbh]

Some Labour MPs are accusing Corbyn and McDonnell of encourage Momentum to protest outside MPs' homes

[mongers]

Farage is off visiting the battlefields and war graves of the First World War.   

[Valmy]

Farage is off visiting the battlefields and war graves of the First World War.   

Did these men not die to keep Germany from ruling over Britain?

[Valmy]

FFS

Which part?

[Sheilbh]

Farage is off visiting the battlefields and war graves of the First World War.   

Prick.

More importantly though the visit by the President of Ireland to the Somme memorials is extraordinary to mark the Irish dead feels extraordinary.

[Valmy]

How is it right that the status quo can only need 45%+1?

Depends on the issue. Creating a new nation requires more support than a slender majority. I mean generally it is bad when 49.99999% of your population does not even support the existence of your country. Constitution changes in the US requires 2/3rd support of the Congress. Which is absolutely correct. There should be overwhelming support to change the very foundation and existence of a state. I mean look what bullshit the Scottish referendum was: will the press say something to piss people off so they CREATE A FUCKING NEW COUNTRY just to spite the establishment? Sheilbh we shouldn't create more conflicts and jockeying nations pursuing their interests on such shallow and shaky ground.

I don't see why that is a controversial statement. It has long been said and repeated in government philosophy and thinking for centuries.

[Valmy]

More importantly though the visit by the President of Ireland to the Somme memorials is extraordinary to mark the Irish dead feels extraordinary.

That is a pretty unusual thing for the President of Ireland to do. You don't think this is to play up sympathy in Northern Ireland?

[Agelastus]

More importantly though the visit by the President of Ireland to the Somme memorials is extraordinary to mark the Irish dead feels extraordinary.

That is a pretty unusual thing for the President of Ireland to do. You don't think this is to play up sympathy in Northern Ireland?

Well, the 16th (Irish) Division did fight at the Somme as well as the 36th (Ulster) Division, albeit not on the First Day; given the composition of the 16th and the general significance awarded to 100 year anniversaries I'd almost be more surprised by him not going.

[Sheilbh]

More importantly though the visit by the President of Ireland to the Somme memorials is extraordinary to mark the Irish dead feels extraordinary.

That is a pretty unusual thing for the President of Ireland to do. You don't think this is to play up sympathy in Northern Ireland?

No, I think it's been coming for a while. For the last few years there have been more official events commemorating the Irish who died in WWI and I feel like now it's reached the point where that and the Easter Rising can be acknowledged and felt in Irish history without one necessarily slighting the other. Until the last few years it was a part of the history of that period that was largely ignored.

It's still a pretty special moment mind.