The Off Topic Topic

[Grey Fox]

not to mention the idea that change is always a good thing.

My comment this morning was prompted by that.

However for some time you've been saying little things that add to the total drop by drop.


The virgin dance is also a thing here too. Gotta switch between providers regularly for your mobile phones, internet & tv plans. Back when it was only cable/satellite. It was the Bell-Videotron dance.

[Josquius]

not to mention the idea that change is always a good thing.

My comment this morning was prompted by that.

However for some time you've been saying little things that add to the total drop by drop.

I mean. When the two options are keep everything as it is or reactionary populist far right fuck wittery...then any sensible socialist is a small c conservative yes.

[Grey Fox]

There is always a 3rd choice.

[Josquius]

There is always a 3rd choice.

Not really.
See US presidential elections for instance.
Vote to support the moderate Conservative or that's one fewer votes the fascist needs.

[Grey Fox]

Got me there.

[Admiral Yi]

Centrism's been a term of abuse for ages. Since at least Corbyn, especially for the Novara types - "centrist dad", Rest is Politics etc.

There's (as usual) half a point in the criticism.

And what would that half a point be?

[Sheilbh]

And what would that half a point be?

I think they often don't really have politics but our primarily about a style of politics - in this they're an interesting mirror to populists. They will refer to people as the "grown-ups", "sensible", "responsible" etc - this is not an assessment of that person's political agenda. It is just about their affect/style/vibe.

There is no content to their politics, it's pure surface. And I think this reflects the other issue that it is fundamnetally just nostalgia for the world before 2016 and particularly the 1990s. It's just restoration - put the adults back in charge and someone the NICE decade will come back. There's not really any accounting of how that era fell apart and how we got to shocks likee 2016: two failed wars, a financial crisis that hurt millions, austerity, the opioid epidemic etc. I suspect that's because it didn't really impact their circles - even though they probably supported all the parties backing those policies (New Labour to Cameron swing voters).

This is best symbolised in The Rest is Politics, which I like, where you have Alastair Campbell who was Tony Blair's spin doctor and has routinely been accused of lying to the press/massaging evidence to build the case for the Iraq War and Rory Stewart a Tory MP who supported and still supports austerity. They bemoan the state of modern Britain, the world, the West and our politics - with not a second of self-reflection on the role they (broadly in power in one way or another from 1997 to 2019) may have contributed to it or created the conditions for this world. And again there's no content, I really like Rory Stewart (and think, like the populists he's good at analysis but no solutions) but when he ran for Mayor and when he ran for Tory leader his big policy idea was planting lots of trees. Which is nice, but it's the politics of a minor royal not someone with a vision for London or the country, which I think is Stewart's problem. But it is indicative - except for reversing Brexit, there is no actual politics.

I'd also add I think a lot of their complaints - the lies, nastiness, polarisation etc is based on whitewashing their own experience in power. Alastair Campbell is, because of his own experiences with depression and his family, a big campaigner on mental health. I actually really like Alastair Campbell beccause he is very tribally anti-Tory, but I do slightly struggle with him being a mental health campaigner given that when he was Blair's spin doctor he was briefing reporters about Gordon Brown's "psychological flaws". Aside from the other complaints about him and the culture of spin etc.

I think that they feel let down and disappointed by Starmer is a good sign about him.

[Josquius]

And what would that half a point be?

I think they often don't really have politics but our primarily about a style of politics - in this they're an interesting mirror to populists. They will refer to people as the "grown-ups", "sensible", "responsible" etc - this is not an assessment of that person's political agenda. It is just about their affect/style/vibe.

There is no content to their politics, it's pure surface. And I think this reflects the other issue that it is fundamnetally just nostalgia for the world before 2016 and particularly the 1990s. It's just restoration - put the adults back in charge and someone the NICE decade will come back. There's not really any accounting of how that era fell apart and how we got to shocks likee 2016: two failed wars, a financial crisis that hurt millions, austerity, the opioid epidemic etc. I suspect that's because it didn't really impact their circles - even though they probably supported all the parties backing those policies (New Labour to Cameron swing voters).

This is best symbolised in The Rest is Politics, which I like, where you have Alastair Campbell who was Tony Blair's spin doctor and has routinely been accused of lying to the press/massaging evidence to build the case for the Iraq War and Rory Stewart a Tory MP who supported and still supports austerity. They bemoan the state of modern Britain, the world, the West and our politics - with not a second of self-reflection on the role they (broadly in power in one way or another from 1997 to 2019) may have contributed to it or created the conditions for this world. And again there's no content, I really like Rory Stewart (and think, like the populists he's good at analysis but no solutions) but when he ran for Mayor and when he ran for Tory leader his big policy idea was planting lots of trees. Which is nice, but it's the politics of a minor royal not someone with a vision for London or the country, which I think is Stewart's problem. But it is indicative - except for reversing Brexit, there is no actual politics.

I'd also add I think a lot of their complaints - the lies, nastiness, polarisation etc is based on whitewashing their own experience in power. Alastair Campbell is, because of his own experiences with depression and his family, a big campaigner on mental health. I actually really like Alastair Campbell beccause he is very tribally anti-Tory, but I do slightly struggle with him being a mental health campaigner given that when he was Blair's spin doctor he was briefing reporters about Gordon Brown's "psychological flaws". Aside from the other complaints about him and the culture of spin etc.

I think that they feel let down and disappointed by Starmer is a good sign about him.

I think this draws to my original point though.
There are those centrists who genuinely believe in not making any big waves. Give them a magic wand to fix the world and...it's basically the same but the pot holes filled in, a few more trees, and the whole place given a bit of a polish.
But then there are also those centrists who want the world to be a Star Trek style socialist utopia...But don't see it as very tactically astute to be shouting for this today, and that all they can get away with politically at the moment is micro nudges in that direction.

[grumbler]

It's interesting that UK political partisans see political non-partisans as people with "no content to their politics, it's pure surface."  I suspect that political partisans in the US feel the same way; that dispassionate politics is not politics at all.

It's as damning a piece of evidence for the decay of the liberal political system as there is.  Centrists, of course, have politics.  Their politics just lacks partisan fervor, and they choose their politicians based on what they consider will be best for their country, not what will be best for their party.

[Admiral Yi]

I think they often don't really have politics but our primarily about a style of politics

How are you defining "politics?"  I'm a centrist.  I vote.  I have opinions on preferred policies.  In what way do I not have politics?  Unless you're tautologically defining having politics as belonging to one of the extremes.

[Sheilbh]

It's interesting that UK political partisans see political non-partisans as people with "no content to their politics, it's pure surface."  I suspect that political partisans in the US feel the same way; that dispassionate politics is not politics at all.

It's as damning a piece of evidence for the decay of the liberal political system as there is.  Centrists, of course, have politics.  Their politics just lacks partisan fervor, and they choose their politicians based on what they consider will be best for their country, not what will be best for their party.

In the example I'm giving - Alastair Campbell was Tony Blair's Director of Communications and Rory Stewart was a Tory MP, cabinet minister and leadership candidate. They are partisan - although I think this will only come out when Labour win an election because Campbell is an absolute partisan, while Stewart isn't. That works when they're both criticising a Tory government they dislike. I think the dynamic may change when there's a Labour government

My half a point with the "centrist dad" type is that what seems to define their politics for that type is often more about style, personalities, nostalgia for the old days (when they were in charge) and is profoundly unreflective. The issues and the way politics has gone is simply that the wrong (bad) people are in charge/winning, put the right people in charge and it would all be fine again.

The US equivalent I think would maybe be someone like David Frum? I like him and I agree with him on Trump, but he was in Bush's White House and there doesn't seem to be any thought on how what he was doing there connects to what is happening now. It's like people who still romanticise Merkel - it's about a time and a vibe, not a reality (austerity that destroyed European renewables industry, getting Russia and Ukraine and China wrong, constitutional debt brake that's now undermining Germany's route to net zero).

How are you defining "politics?"  I'm a centrist.  I vote.  I have opinions on preferred policies.  In what way do I not have politics?  Unless you're tautologically defining having politics as belonging to one of the extremes.

A set of beliefs that shapes your views on political issues. I would never have pegged you as a centrist though

And again I'm mainly meaning the UK context, Novara Media "centrist dad" complaint which is who I think have half a point on this.

Also you're assuming having politics is necessarily good. Even taking an interest in politics is a bit of an infirmity. I've mentioned it before because it's my favourite study - but the people most likely to fall foul of misinformation (and stick to it) are highly educated people with strong political opinions. Highly educated people with politics seem unusually vulnerable to confirmation bias.

They're not centrists but the bulwark of democracy are the people who don't really pay attention. The normal, well-adjusted majority just living their lives and who day-to-day fade out politics - unless there's a really big or really outrageous story (Partygate) which riles them. But every 4-5 years they'll do their duty, pay attention for a bit (resentfully) and vote. Nine out of ten times, from the context they're in and of the option they're given - that voting public get it right.

[Josquius]

I think they often don't really have politics but our primarily about a style of politics

How are you defining "politics?"  I'm a centrist.  I vote.  I have opinions on preferred policies.  In what way do I not have politics?  Unless you're tautologically defining having politics as belonging to one of the extremes.

...you're a centrist? 

[Grey Fox]

I think they often don't really have politics but our primarily about a style of politics

How are you defining "politics?"  I'm a centrist.  I vote.  I have opinions on preferred policies.  In what way do I not have politics?  Unless you're tautologically defining having politics as belonging to one of the extremes.

...you're a centrist? 

Selfawereness is not YI's forte.

[Admiral Yi]

...you're a centrist? 

Yes.

[Razgovory]

Yi doesn't seem particularly extreme either way.