The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

Yes.

Interesting - I'd have pegged you as a sort of Jack Kemp/Paul Ryan/Reagan Revolution kind of guy.

Yi doesn't seem particularly extreme either way.

But I think this gets to an issue I have with the way "centrist" is used - where it is just the absence of zeal. I don't think that's right. Again it goes to my view that often what's defining is style, attitude rather than politics.

I always come back to him but my archetypical centrist is Blair - he is, if nothing else, a great believer in things. He is fervent, motivated by conviction and radical in his views but they absolutely come from the centre.

I think you can have such a thing as a radical centrist.

[Syt]

Well, what's centrist in one country might be on the left or right side of the spectrum in other countries.

[grumbler]

David Frum is not a centrist, except perhaps in the perception of Brits.  Frum self-describes as a conservative Republican who, for instance, supported Bill Clinton's impeachment and staunchly opposed the nuclear weapons agreement with Iran.

Opposition to Trump does not make a conservative Republican a centrist, it just makes them a sane conservative Republican.

[FunkMonk]

I considered myself a "centrist" before Trump but now am (more or less) a leftist.

To be completely honest, since Trump I've found a lot of the whining from "centrists" really nauseating in recent years. The moralizing, the holier-than-thou attitudes, it is like they are now channeling the things I found nauseating about the old left.

I think newer or younger leftists are more likely to actually do the hard work of improving the world while, in my experience, many centrists simply vote every 4 years or whatever and considered their civic duty fulfilled. I used to feel that way but since Trump I've decided that wasn't enough.

[grumbler]

But I think this gets to an issue I have with the way "centrist" is used - where it is just the absence of zeal. I don't think that's right. Again it goes to my view that often what's defining is style, attitude rather than politics.

I always come back to him but my archetypical centrist is Blair - he is, if nothing else, a great believer in things. He is fervent, motivated by conviction and radical in his views but they absolutely come from the centre.

I think you can have such a thing as a radical centrist.

After reading this, I realized that I have no idea what you think a centrist actually is.  You say that it is "style, attitude rather than politics" and then note that "you can have such a thing as a radical centrist."  How does a "radical centrist" have a radical style that distinguishes it from the radical style of leftists or rightists?

I think that one of the defining characteristics of a non-UK centrist is the willingness to listen to both sides before supporting a course of action.  That, to my mind, is the opposite of radical.

[Josquius]

From what I've seen from him (maybe he's different in reality?) Yi definitely isn't a centrist.
An extreme conservative? Certainly not.
But on the right beyond a doubt.

[DGuller]

There are two kinds of centrists, whose approaches are diametrically opposed to each other.  The first kind has solid principles, makes conclusions based on them, and lets the conclusions fall where they may, regardless of what camp is home to those conclusions.  The second kind splits the difference so that they're tautologically in the center always.  If one camp lurches to the extreme, they lurch halfway to the same extreme to maintain their central orientation.  Those kinds of centrists I would argue are worthy of disdain, because they add nothing to political discourse except smug. 

When people criticize generic centrist, the second kind, the algorithmic centrist, is what they usually have in mind.  The first kind, the principled centrist, is usually not the target of such criticism, although when people get extreme enough, they may cease being able to recognize that a first kind can even exist.  Conversely, when one camp becomes extreme and the other doesn't, the algorithmic centrists are the only ones that still remain in the center, so they may appear representative of all centrists during such times.

[grumbler]

From what I've seen from him (maybe he's different in reality?) Yi definitely isn't a centrist.
An extreme conservative? Certainly not.
But on the right beyond a doubt.

From what I've seen, you are far enough to the left that centrists look like rightists to you.  That's fine, except when you try to tell others what their own political beliefs are.

[HVC]

I guess yi seems centralist on most social issues , but he's definitely a righty where the economy is concerned.

[grumbler]

There are two kinds of centrists, whose approaches are diametrically opposed to each other.  The first kind has solid principles, makes conclusions based on them, and lets the conclusions fall where they may, regardless of what camp is home to those conclusions.  The second kind splits the difference so that they're tautologically in the center always.  If one camp lurches to the extreme, they lurch halfway to the same extreme to maintain their central orientation.  Those kinds of centrists I would argue are worthy of disdain, because they add nothing to political discourse except smug. 

When people criticize generic centrist, the second kind, the algorithmic centrist, is what they usually have in mind.  The first kind, the principled centrist, is usually not the target of such criticism, although when people get extreme enough, they may cease being able to recognize that a first kind can even exist.  Conversely, when one camp becomes extreme and the other doesn't, the algorithmic centrists are the only ones that still remain in the center, so they may appear representative of all centrists during such times.

Your "algorithmic centrists" sound more like apolitical types than centrists, but maybe I'm not understanding your point.  Can you provide some examples of these "algorithmic centrists" and how they've shifted their political views to stay in the algorithmic center?

[Josquius]

From what I've seen from him (maybe he's different in reality?) Yi definitely isn't a centrist.
An extreme conservative? Certainly not.
But on the right beyond a doubt.

From what I've seen, you are far enough to the left that centrists look like rightists to you.  That's fine, except when you try to tell others what their own political beliefs are.

Amazingly ironic statement.

[grumbler]

I guess yi seems centralist on most social issues , but he's definitely a righty where the economy is concerned.

Yi favors free market economic liberalism, which seems to me to be a centrist position.  The right favors market intervention for it's purposes, and the left does the same.

[grumbler]

From what I've seen from him (maybe he's different in reality?) Yi definitely isn't a centrist.
An extreme conservative? Certainly not.
But on the right beyond a doubt.

From what I've seen, you are far enough to the left that centrists look like rightists to you.  That's fine, except when you try to tell others what their own political beliefs are.

Amazingly ironic statement.

If you think so, you should read it more carefully and ask for help with the big words.

[Sheilbh]

After reading this, I realized that I have no idea what you think a centrist actually is.  You say that it is "style, attitude rather than politics" and then note that "you can have such a thing as a radical centrist."  How does a "radical centrist" have a radical style that distinguishes it from the radical style of leftists or rightists?

Yeah I think we are probably talking past each other.

The context for me is Jos seeing people being attacked for being centrists - and I've said there's a stream of that, particularly on the left against "centrist dads" in the UK which I think is not entirely inaccurate (but I think that about almost every political opinion ). That is my half a point bit - it's not about "centrists" per se. I think Matt Zarb-Cousins isn't a million miles away from it (and I generally don't like him) in describing "centrist dads" as "middle-aged men who cannot come to terms with the world and politics changing".

On centrism I'd agree with DG. I think there's a school which is basically triangulating between the points which is, to an extent, a practical politics for finding where the centre is and exploiting it. On the other hand I think there are politicians - Clinton, Macron, Blair all spring to mind who are ideologically of the centre.

I get Frum might not be the perfect comparison but I think he as an example of a US equivalent of the "centrist dad" but maybe not - it sounds similar from Funk's description - because I imagine lots of people who hated the policies he's associated with nod sagely as he talks about Trump now. Because it's about style which is anti-populist, appeals to authority/credentials, process-focused etc. I think in terms of where we are now, that stylistic difference matters less than the legacy of the Bush White House. Similarly in the UK context I won't listen to George Osborne opine wisely with his old opponent, Ed Balls, on politics today where they'll bemoan Brexit and Boris etc - because I think there is no man more singularly responsible for it than George Osborne.

I think that one of the defining characteristics of a non-UK centrist is the willingness to listen to both sides before supporting a course of action.  That, to my mind, is the opposite of radical.

I don't agree with that.

I wouldn't oppose radical to centrist. For me it's about attitude to change - radical at one end status quo at the other. It can be in the service of left, right, centre, all sorts of ideologies or beliefs. And a conservative attitude to change, process, current structures etc is also present in all ideologies left, right and centre.

Again I think Blair is my archetypical centrist on this - but Macron is possibly another. Their politics are deeply rooted in the centre, in an "en meme temps" understanding of the world. But they want really profound, quite radical change.. Blair on the role of the state and the way the state works (while still being fundamentally let the free market work and tax it and use it in order to deliver high quality public services and reduce inequality); Macron similarly, but also the single most ambitious vision of Europe (which I really like) that I think any European politician in my lifetime has articulated.

Edit: And needless to say I tend to find the radicals interesting (on all sides) because while I might disagree with their proposed solutions, I think their analysis is right and I agree with it that there is a need for profound radical change and we are where we are because of what the status quo produced.

[Razgovory]

From what I've seen from him (maybe he's different in reality?) Yi definitely isn't a centrist.
An extreme conservative? Certainly not.
But on the right beyond a doubt.

From what I've seen, you are far enough to the left that centrists look like rightists to you.  That's fine, except when you try to tell others what their own political beliefs are.

Amazingly ironic statement.

You thought I was a Trump supporter, and I'm a leftist.