Looks like Marty moved to Britain after all, and he's already made management!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2893828/Ranting-Karl-Winn-Id-rather-employ-a-paedo-than-a-hero.html
Quote
Boss: I'd rather employ a paedo than a hero
By JOHN COLES
Published: 16 Mar 2010
A RANTING company boss has caused outrage by claiming that he would rather employ a PAEDOPHILE than one of our brave troops.
Karl Winn, 60, said he would "recruit ex-drug dealers, convicts and child molesters" instead of former servicemen or women.
When The Sun confronted Winn yesterday he said he did not regret his actions - and would continue his "blanket ban" on heroes.
Forces Recruitment Services - which help find jobs for former military personnel back in Civvy Street - had emailed Winn inviting him to consider taking on ex-servicemen and women at the Webeurope net design company he runs in Taunton, Somerset.
Winn, a former social worker, wrote back: "Personally, I'd rather recruit ex-drug dealers, convicts and even child molesters rather than consider anybody who has been in the pay of the British Government.
British soldiers
Heroes ... troops in Afghanistan
"Anybody who has been in the pay of such a military force, and by their silence and complicity has condoned such illegal and immoral actions while accepting a monthly blood-stained pay-packet, certainly will not be considered for employment by us!
"Please remove us from your email list. Regards, Karl."
Winn tried to deny he wrote the email when The Sun first challenged him. He blamed a "disgruntled" worker he sacked, who had managed to hack into his personal email.
But confronted by further emails between him and the FRS he caved in and admitted he had written them - but refused to apologise.
Winn, who employs 16 people, agreed that his views were "a bit over the top" - but continued: "I don't regret saying it at all.
"Even if it costs me money I'll still stand up for what I believe in."
He shook and chain-smoked as he then tried to justify his twisted beliefs, saying: "If you have a paedophile, at least he goes to court and is seen to be accountable for what he's done. That's why I made a reference."
After our reporter left, Winn told his staff to remove all the corporate signs from outside their office.
But his comments have incensed those who support our military. Graham Brown, managing director of FRS, told Winn in an email exchange he was "absolutely staggered" and that his views "simply beggar belief".
He added: "I wonder if the Royal Marine detachment based in Taunton would share your belief."
Winn's office is a couple of miles from the HQ of 40 Commando, who have lost comrades in Afghanistan. Sam McEwan, who works for a leading ex-troop recruitment firm, said: "A lot of people in the business have seen this email and are enraged by it.
"Our servicemen and women continue to lose their lives so that we are free to express our beliefs."
Winn, who lives alone outside Taunton, later issued a "statement" to The Sun seeking to explain himself.
He said: "Ex-paedophiles and drug addicts who have been charged and paid the price for their actions deserve a chance to get on with their lives. In my opinion, military personnel who have got away with murder do not.
"I will therefore continue with my blanket ban on employing ex-military personnel. I understand this will affect innocent as well as guilty people."
The Marty crack doesn't work. He thinks soldiers are stupid and useless, not guilty of murder.
Can we have a blanket ban on Tim quoting the UK tabloids? This is unbearable.
And while I am at it, I hope you have a cancer relapse, you miserable piece of shit excuse for a human being. Die pls.
QuoteWinn, a former social worker, wrote back: "Personally, I'd rather recruit ex-drug dealers, convicts and even child molesters rather than consider anybody who has been in the pay of the British Government.
So he wouldn't hire himself then?
Quote from: Viking on March 17, 2010, 08:03:51 AM
QuoteWinn, a former social worker, wrote back: "Personally, I'd rather recruit ex-drug dealers, convicts and even child molesters rather than consider anybody who has been in the pay of the British Government.
So he wouldn't hire himself then?
Would you?
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 07:53:23 AM
Can we have a blanket ban on Tim quoting the UK tabloids? This is unbearable.
No. And Tim is better than you are, so watch your mouth.
For some reason I thought this would be about the Catholic Church.
Sounds like he wants to give people a second chance. What wrong with that?
Quote from: DGuller on March 17, 2010, 08:27:08 AM
Sounds like he wants to give people a second chance. What wrong with that?
People, by an large, don't really deserve second chances. Mostly they just screw them up, usually in the exact same way they screwed up their first chance.
Quote from: Berkut on March 17, 2010, 08:35:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 17, 2010, 08:27:08 AM
Sounds like he wants to give people a second chance. What wrong with that?
People, by an large, don't really deserve second chances. Mostly they just screw them up, usually in the exact same way they screwed up their first chance.
QuotePosts: 4750
:hmm:
FOR THE RECORD: I 'unofficially' give *preference* to veterans. They are far more likely to be good employees in my experience. Also, for the record, I do not hire convicted sex offenders. :)
The writing on that article is so jingoistic that it has gone to colonize Rhodesia again.
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 08:54:22 AM
FOR THE RECORD: I 'unofficially' give *preference* to veterans. They are far more likely to be good employees in my experience. Also, for the record, I do not hire convicted sex offenders. :)
Good man. :)
I love vets. And although I can't ask about dishonorable discharges, if I find out one has one they won't be sticking around.
Quote from: The Larch on March 17, 2010, 09:02:50 AM
The writing on that article is so jingoistic that it has gone to colonize Rhodesia again.
That's a actually a good idea.
Ed, didn't they change it to 'less than honorable discharge' or 'not honorable discharge' or something lame?
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 09:49:45 AM
Ed, didn't they change it to 'less than honorable discharge' or 'not honorable discharge' or something lame?
Other than Honorable is less severe than a dishonorable.
I think. I don't think they have jiggered with those too much.
Hmmm... I interviewed a guy a few years ago who was less than honorably discharged or other than honorably discharged because he had failed a random drug screen (he peed hot for pot).
If that's not a 'dishonorable' discharge... I mean, do you have to do a My Lai or rape someone to get a dishonorable discharge?
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 09:57:44 AM
Hmmm... I interviewed a guy a few years ago who was less than honorably discharged or other than honorably discharged because he had failed a random drug screen (he peed hot for pot).
If that's not a 'dishonorable' discharge... I mean, do you have to do a My Lai or rape someone to get a dishonorable discharge?
Isn't that what gay people get too, under DADT?
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 09:57:44 AM
Hmmm... I interviewed a guy a few years ago who was less than honorably discharged or other than honorably discharged because he had failed a random drug screen (he peed hot for pot).
If that's not a 'dishonorable' discharge... I mean, do you have to do a My Lai or rape someone to get a dishonorable discharge?
Dishonorables are the criminals. I think they get treated like felons and lose the right to vote, own a gun, etc. etc. The OTH are the screw-ups.
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 10:02:47 AM
Isn't that what gay people get too, under DADT?
Depends on what they discharge into.
According to wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge, General discharge is for stuff like DADT, OTH is for civilian court (usually minor) conviction and dishonorable is for court martial.
QuoteBoss: I'd rather employ a paedo than a hero
Hero.
:bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
There are 3 types of administrative discharge: Honorable, General, and Other Than Honorable. Since they are administrative, none of these involve a court-martial, though a serviceperson can appeal a General or Other Than Honorable discharge. A General discharge means that there are some relatively minor performance or conduct issues, and the person remains eligible for most (though not all) veterens' benefits. (FYI for Marty and other interested parties, discharges for homosexual conduct usually General discharges.) An Other Than Honorable discharge is used in cases of more severe problems that still don't merit a court martial. A person who receives an Other Than Honorable discharge will be ineligible for most veterens' benefits.
If an offense is serious enough to warrant a court-martial, then an enlisted person, if convicted, will be given either a Bad Conduct discharge or a Dishonorable discharge, usually after serving a term of imprisonment in a military prison. A person who gets one of these will basically forfeit all veterens' benefits; in addition, a person who gets a Dishonorable discharge may face further penalties even after leaving the service, for example, federal law bars a person who received a Dishonorable dischage from owning firearms, and some states won't allow a person with a Dishonorable discarge to vote (which makes sense in that some states don't allow convicted felons to vote, and someone who got a Dishonorable discharge was essentially convicted of a felony, just by a military court). Officers don't get Bad Conduct or Dishonorable discharges; if convicted by a court martial, they are subject to dismissal, which is basically the same as a Dishonorable discharge. (A discharge or dismissal is not automatic on conviction by a court martial--it has to be included as part of the sentence, but AFAIK, it is pretty much standard for it to be included.)
And Cal: yeah, basically to get a Dishonorable discharge you have to be guilty of serious shit, like rape or murder--pretty much something that would be a major felony if committed by a civilian. The only thing that I think of that would get you a Dishonorable discharge that wouldn't be likely to get you a substantial prison term in civilian life would be desertion.
Quote from: Tyr on March 17, 2010, 10:14:55 AM
QuoteBoss: I'd rather employ a paedo than a hero
Hero.
:bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
Given what he said about soldiers, I doubt he called them heroes.
So, would the guy employ Siegy?
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 07:54:09 AM
And while I am at it, I hope you have a cancer relapse, you miserable piece of shit excuse for a human being. Die pls.
After that first post, I was wondering if you were slipping. Nope. :P
Quote from: Syt on March 17, 2010, 11:05:08 AM
So, would the guy employ Siegy?
:lol:
I'd employ Seigey, assuming he was otherwise qualified for whatever he applied to. I like people who aren't afraid to pull the trigger. I have to deal with too much of that shit now as it is.
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 11:13:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 17, 2010, 11:05:08 AM
So, would the guy employ Siegy?
:lol:
I'd employ Seigey, assuming he was otherwise qualified for whatever he applied to. I like people who aren't afraid to pull the trigger. I have to deal with too much of that shit now as it is.
Might be awkward when he brought the goat carcass to work though.
Quote from: The Larch on March 17, 2010, 09:02:50 AM
The writing on that article is so jingoistic that it has gone to colonize Rhodesia again.
Since when did 'hero' become a synonym for 'serviceman'?
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 11:13:40 AM
I like people who aren't afraid to pull the trigger.
It's a hit or miss, IMO. In some environments it's a good trait to have. In typical office environments, however, people like that tend to alienate their co-workers and their next of kin.
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 11:13:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 17, 2010, 11:05:08 AM
So, would the guy employ Siegy?
:lol:
I'd employ Seigey
I think the question with regards to the employer in the OP was whether he'd hire someone who was both a serviceman
and a pedophile.
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 11:20:59 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 17, 2010, 09:02:50 AM
The writing on that article is so jingoistic that it has gone to colonize Rhodesia again.
Since when did 'hero' become a synonym for 'serviceman'?
It hasn't unless of course you work for Fox News.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on March 17, 2010, 12:23:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 11:20:59 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 17, 2010, 09:02:50 AM
The writing on that article is so jingoistic that it has gone to colonize Rhodesia again.
Since when did 'hero' become a synonym for 'serviceman'?
It hasn't unless of course you work for Fox News.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.mediamatters.org%2Fstatic%2Fvideo%2F2006%2F05%2F15%2Fhannity-20060511-north.jpg&hash=034bebd5b029725b372f2ac2070a4b45b3bf6ad7)
I clicked and nothing happened. :(
Quote from: Caliga on March 17, 2010, 08:54:22 AM
FOR THE RECORD: I 'unofficially' give *preference* to veterans. They are far more likely to be good employees in my experience. Also, for the record, I do not hire convicted sex offenders. :)
It's a no Winn situation.
I don't get the hero tag either.
Yeah, being a soldier is a tough job, its a tough life, its very dangerous, and it takes balls (or ovaries) to do it, but slapping the hero label on every single person in a particular occupation devalues the word and worse than that, it gives them nothing to aspire to.
Imagine if Romans called every single person in the legions a hero.
Christianity is to Rome what soldier worship is to the US (and seems to be spreading!!!)
It was amazing, the small differences between the US and Canada. The reverence for the military was rather unusual.
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
It was amazing, the small differences between the US and Canada. The reverence for the military was rather unusual.
Yes, it was.
Quote from: grumbler on March 17, 2010, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
It was amazing, the small differences between the US and Canada. The reverence for the military was rather unusual.
Yes, it was.
You're just mad because you had people spitting in your face and calling you a babykiller after the war of 1812.
I heard if we posted in this thread, we could colonize Rhodesia?
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 17, 2010, 05:22:56 PM
I heard if we posted in this thread, we could colonize Rhodesia?
Yup, go to it. You need to supply your own transportation though.
He can raise cats there and on a cool fall morning, you can hear the herd mew.
That notion is as adorable as it is unpractical. They would be mostly orange-and-white, and herded with a long balsa stick with a ball of yarn at the end.
I'd have attack cats to protect the herd from mischevious kaffirs.
The missus has been comissioned to draw this, now.
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 07:54:09 AM
And while I am at it, I hope you have a cancer relapse, you miserable piece of shit excuse for a human being. Die pls.
Please please please get hit by a bus tomorrow. :pope:
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 17, 2010, 06:26:48 PM
I'd have attack cats to protect the herd from mischevious kaffirs.
That doesn't work in real life.
Well no, but neither do dreadnoughts. Can't we all have our idle fantasies?
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 17, 2010, 06:36:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 07:54:09 AM
And while I am at it, I hope you have a cancer relapse, you miserable piece of shit excuse for a human being. Die pls.
Please please please get hit by a bus tomorrow. :pope:
:lmfao:
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 17, 2010, 09:17:04 PM
Well no, but neither do dreadnoughts. Can't we all have our idle fantasies?
Dreadnoughts worked very well, thank you. They saved Britain in two wars.
I thought it was Canada that saved Britain in two world wars. Must Vimy Ridge go unremembered?
Quote from: Jaron on March 17, 2010, 04:40:41 PM
I don't get the hero tag either.
I'm pretty sure you never will.
114BV!!!! :o
Quote from: derspiess on March 17, 2010, 10:13:48 PM
Quote from: Jaron on March 17, 2010, 04:40:41 PM
I don't get the hero tag either.
I'm pretty sure you never will.
It should be uncommon. Instead every one in the military from private to general gets lauded as some kind of modern day Achilles.
Quote from: Jaron on March 17, 2010, 10:54:00 PM
It should be uncommon. Instead every one in the military from private to general gets lauded as some kind of modern day Achilles.
Regardless, I don't see you bearing that tag ;)
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 17, 2010, 06:36:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 07:54:09 AM
And while I am at it, I hope you have a cancer relapse, you miserable piece of shit excuse for a human being. Die pls.
Please please please get hit by a bus tomorrow. :pope:
So, the bullet with your name on it hasn't made it yet? Well, let's wait some more.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 03:12:26 AM
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 17, 2010, 06:36:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2010, 07:54:09 AM
And while I am at it, I hope you have a cancer relapse, you miserable piece of shit excuse for a human being. Die pls.
Please please please get hit by a bus tomorrow. :pope:
So, the bullet with your name on it hasn't made it yet? Well, let's wait some more.
Fuck you. <_<
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
It was amazing, the small differences between the US and Canada. The reverence for the military was rather unusual.
That was an observation I made to Capetan Mihali when I met him in Philly in October, and later to Minsky as well, but extended it to reverence to authority in general, including police and firemen. I was meant to create an inflammatory thread about it but never got around to do it. :Embarrass:
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 04:53:52 AM
That was an observation I made to Capetan Mihali when I met him in Philly in October, and later to Minsky as well, but extended it to reverence to authority in general, including police and firemen. I was meant to create an inflammatory thread about it but never got around to do it. :Embarrass:
:mellow:
I get why there would be little to no reverence for the military in most of Europe (and quite frankly, too much reverence for the military is downright dangerous). But no reverence for police and firemen? Or do you mean to say there's no more reverence for police and firemen than there is for other types of valued civil servants such as doctors?
The police are probably as associated with state repression as the military in Europe if not more so.
Ok... but firemen?
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 04:59:11 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 04:53:52 AM
That was an observation I made to Capetan Mihali when I met him in Philly in October, and later to Minsky as well, but extended it to reverence to authority in general, including police and firemen. I was meant to create an inflammatory thread about it but never got around to do it. :Embarrass:
:mellow:
I get why there would be little to no reverence for the military in most of Europe (and quite frankly, too much reverence for the military is downright dangerous). But no reverence for police and firemen? Or do you mean to say there's no more reverence for police and firemen than there is for other types of valued civil servants such as doctors?
I think the European disdain/antipathy towards the police is even more understandable than Europeans' lukewarm attitude towards the military. I can't think of a single European state that hasn't experienced (within a living memory) either a police state of some sorts (Eastern Europe, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece etc.) or at least has a history of fairly recent clashes with the police (the 1968 student revolt in France, anti-Thatcher riots in the UK etc.). At least the military in some countries (UK for example) has had a rather good record, by comparison.
In fact, considering the American apparent individualism and anti-government sentiments (which are arguably bigger than in Europe), the anomaly here is the American worship of men in uniforms.
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 05:30:53 AM
Ok... but firemen?
I don't think firemen are disrespected. I think they are actually fairly respected and well-regarded, at least in Poland. Where do you get the "firemen are hated in Europe" thing from?
Edit: Ok, I saw Larch's post. I don't think firemen are viewed the same way as the military or the police in Europe, but if they are less respected in Europe than in the US, it could have to do with physical labour being regarded in Europe than it is in the US (so it is more along of the lines of my "too stupid to go to college" critique of the military, than the "fascist killers" critique the guy in the story has). In essence, Europe has a much higher regard for intellectuals and the "creative classes" (as opposed to the American anti-intellectualism which has a certain level of contempt for the "eggheads" and the like), so in relative social status, firemen may be lower in Europe than they are in the US.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 05:34:12 AM
I don't think firemen are disrespected. I think they are actually fairly respected and well-regarded, at least in Poland. Where do you get the "firemen are hated in Europe" thing from?
My guess would be from the post he quoted.
Generally speaking, I respect soldiers and am suspicious and uncharitable with police.
In a gross simplification, you could say that one part of Europe (the Romanesque countries, Poland, Greece, Hungary etc.) respects the intellectual and the artist, and the other part (the "Northern" countries) respects the civil servant and the academic - so everyone who isn't among these group is less respected by default. I think this is quite the opposite of the situation in the US, where these groups are not generally respected.
Who is respected in Slavic countries? The accordion player and the meat packer?
Firemen - overpayed muscular people that sleep all day waiting for fires.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 05:34:12 AM
Where do you get the "firemen are hated in Europe" thing from?
Probably from putting out all those burning Jews.
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 05:00:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 17, 2010, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
It was amazing, the small differences between the US and Canada. The reverence for the military was rather unusual.
Yes, it was.
You're just mad because you had people spitting in your face and calling you a babykiller after the war of 1812.
:lol:
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 17, 2010, 09:35:01 PM
I thought it was Canada that saved Britain in two world wars. Must Vimy Ridge go unremembered?
Canada helped, but it was dreadnoughts that allowed Britain to control the seas.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 06:01:21 AM
Firemen - overpayed muscular people that sleep all day waiting for fires.
That was the general consensus amongst the police I've talked to. They didn't think it was fair that the fire guys didn't have to work unless there was a fire and they had to work all the time.
NOTE: This may not be the opinion of police everywhere. Just here. Also the firemen here once burned down their own fire station one Christmas morning.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 18, 2010, 06:11:00 AM
Also the firemen here once burned down their own fire station one Christmas morning.
Fun factoid: wherever there's a firefighter convention, something somewhere is going to burn. Biggest bunch of arsonists you'll ever find.
At a slight tangent, would you employ an ex-con? My other half worked in Wandsworth nick as a chef for a bit and said if ever he owns his own restaurant he'll follow Gordon Ramsay's lead and employ a former lag, whatever they did to get there.
Personally, I have problems with prison's record of rehabilitation and wouldn't have it in me to employ a murderer, paedophile or rapist. Actually, not even a thief. There go my left-wing credentials.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 18, 2010, 06:11:00 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 06:01:21 AM
Firemen - overpayed muscular people that sleep all day waiting for fires.
That was the general consensus amongst the police I've talked to. They didn't think it was fair that the fire guys didn't have to work unless there was a fire and they had to work all the time.
NOTE: This may not be the opinion of police everywhere. Just here. Also the firemen here once burned down their own fire station one Christmas morning.
This
demands further explanation!
As for respect for the Army, Police and Fire Service in Britain? :hmm:
Well, I think the Fireservice are seen as "just there", no more or less respected than a teacher, priest or doctor, none of which profession generates any strong feelings these days.
The police? I am a law abiding citizen, and yet I dislike passing a policeman. There's no reason for this; it is just an atavistic reaction to the uniform, I think. I appreciate the need for the police but I dislike the presence, the aura if you will. The police are not well respected in Britain, in my opinion, and that has been true since the corruption scandals broke in the Seventies.
As for the army? Well, before the last couple of years I would have rated them as having as much respect as the fireservice, a "just there" organisation that is useful when needed. I personally felt a great deal more respect for them because of my studies in history and my own blatant national pride. The reaction of the people of Wooton Basset and other localities have made me reconsider my opinion, though. I suspect, with the police historically, and politicians currently, tarnished in the public mind that the Armed Forces are the most respected institution in the UK.
I "respect" firemen. I especially respect them posing naked bar the hats in calendars, wielding phallic hoses.
Quote from: Brazen on March 18, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
At a slight tangent, would you employ an ex-con?
It depends if he is hot. :P
For the record, I have no problem with hot, relatively young ex-soldiers either. I would probably think twice about hiring an older (say 40+) ex-veteran (assuming he was in the army for a considerable period of time) because I think he could be psychologically fucked up and wouldn't "play well with others".
I would never, ever hire a gay. They're lazy and unreliable.
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 04:59:11 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 04:53:52 AM
That was an observation I made to Capetan Mihali when I met him in Philly in October, and later to Minsky as well, but extended it to reverence to authority in general, including police and firemen. I was meant to create an inflammatory thread about it but never got around to do it. :Embarrass:
:mellow:
I get why there would be little to no reverence for the military in most of Europe (and quite frankly, too much reverence for the military is downright dangerous). But no reverence for police and firemen? Or do you mean to say there's no more reverence for police and firemen than there is for other types of valued civil servants such as doctors?
It's not that they get disrespected in Europe (as Yi and Mart said police may still provoke bad memories in some places, but that's a different thing), but that I felt that they were exageratedly respected in the States.
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 05:30:53 AM
Ok... but firemen?
Personal experience during my trip. I got to witness two separate firemen events in NY while I was there, some kind of get together in a small church next to St John the Divine, in the Upper West Side, and a massive event in the Rockefeller Center. For me it was really bizarre to see firemen getting so much attention and for them to be wearing elaborate uniforms, akin to military officers. Over here they're much more low profile. I concede that NY, after 9/11, may be a special case.
When there's a car crash the fire truck shows up here in addition to the ambulance. Is the same true in your strange and exotic land?
I am sure that one of the reasons why the military and police are more respected in the US is that, in the US, they are seen as servants of the people, doing useful things, just like paramedics and firefighters. In Europe, the idea that the people are the masters of "public servants" is barely a generation old in some countries, and not many generations old in the others. As Europe's political system matures and the populace gets more comfortable with the idea of the rule of the people, I think they will take on the more mature attitude of Americans towards their public servants (especially those that risk themselves in public service). It isn't reverence, by any means, though. The word you are looking for is "appreciation."
Around here, that's pretty new & it's only because there isn't enough regular Paramedics that they have started forming the firemen for it.
Quote from: Brazen on March 18, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
At a slight tangent, would you employ an ex-con? My other half worked in Wandsworth nick as a chef for a bit and said if ever he owns his own restaurant he'll follow Gordon Ramsay's lead and employ a former lag, whatever they did to get there.
Well, if you are asking theoretically, then I certainly would consider one in certain cases, depending on the nature of the conviction, how exclusive the applicant's skills were, and so forth.
But every organization I've worked for has had certain strict rules about what sort of ex-con you can and cannot hire. For example, a convicted sex offender is always a blanket no-no, regardless of the nature of the crime (yes, even the 19 year old doing the 17 year old that makes Marti froth so much). Illegal drug convictions are sometimes ok depending on the type (possession vs. trafficking) and severity. DUIs almost always pass muster unless the person has a pattern of multiple DUI convictions.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2010, 07:13:34 AM
When there's a car crash the fire truck shows up here in addition to the ambulance. Is the same true in your strange and exotic land?
Yup.
Anecdote: The buddy that hosted me in NY complained that the firemen of his nearest precint made outings quite frequently, for the flimsiest things, always with their sirens blazing, even in the middle of the night, and that it annoyed him a lot because they always woke him up when they did so.
:bleeding:
It was like that when I lived in Boston, too.
Now I live in a place where nothing bad ever happens. :cool:
Seriously... I've been on 'jury duty' since January 21st but there hasn't yet been a single trial for which a jury was needed.
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 07:34:04 AM
Quote from: Brazen on March 18, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
At a slight tangent, would you employ an ex-con? My other half worked in Wandsworth nick as a chef for a bit and said if ever he owns his own restaurant he'll follow Gordon Ramsay's lead and employ a former lag, whatever they did to get there.
Well, if you are asking theoretically, then I certainly would consider one in certain cases, depending on the nature of the conviction, how exclusive the applicant's skills were, and so forth.
But every organization I've worked for has had certain strict rules about what sort of ex-con you can and cannot hire. For example, a convicted sex offender is always a blanket no-no, regardless of the nature of the crime (yes, even the 19 year old doing the 17 year old that makes Marti froth so much). Illegal drug convictions are sometimes ok depending on the type (possession vs. trafficking) and severity. DUIs almost always pass muster unless the person has a pattern of multiple DUI convictions.
The different employers that I've worked for have been all over the place as far as their policies towards hiring ex-cons. Almost nobody wants to hire a thief, though; a convicted murderer probably has better job prospects than a convicted thief.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 06:29:51 AM
This demands further explanation!
This doesn't demand anything. But if you must know they had a call on Christmas morning and left the stove on. They came back and the whole place was on fire. Total loss. Admittedly the police aren't much better. The current chief of police has no working arms or legs. He should have been fired for telling two officers not to investigate the City administer when they found him asleep in his car in his drive way. They noticed the car had recently crashed into something and there was another car's paint chips stuck to it. They only found him sleeping in the car because the house across the street was on fire and they came accompanying the fire truck. Such is life in a small town.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 07:17:36 AM
I am sure that one of the reasons why the military and police are more respected in the US is that, in the US, they are seen as servants of the people, doing useful things, just like paramedics and firefighters. In Europe, the idea that the people are the masters of "public servants" is barely a generation old in some countries, and not many generations old in the others. As Europe's political system matures and the populace gets more comfortable with the idea of the rule of the people, I think they will take on the more mature attitude of Americans towards their public servants (especially those that risk themselves in public service). It isn't reverence, by any means, though. The word you are looking for is "appreciation."
It goes way beyond deserved appreciation, IMO, it's borderline worshiping them.
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 07:34:04 AMBut every organization I've worked for has had certain strict rules about what sort of ex-con you can and cannot hire.
Having rules like this would be illegal (and open the organization to discrimination lawsuits from prospective employees) under the Polish (and all relevant EU jurisdictions except the UK) labour regulations.
In fact, it's illegal to even ask a prospective employee for his criminal record, unless this is for a job that by law cannot be performed by ex-convicts (e.g. work in law enforcement).
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 08:37:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 07:17:36 AM
I am sure that one of the reasons why the military and police are more respected in the US is that, in the US, they are seen as servants of the people, doing useful things, just like paramedics and firefighters. In Europe, the idea that the people are the masters of "public servants" is barely a generation old in some countries, and not many generations old in the others. As Europe's political system matures and the populace gets more comfortable with the idea of the rule of the people, I think they will take on the more mature attitude of Americans towards their public servants (especially those that risk themselves in public service). It isn't reverence, by any means, though. The word you are looking for is "appreciation."
It goes way beyond deserved appreciation, IMO, it's borderline worshiping them.
Really? Borderline "worship"? So if your typical American like the police anymore, they would set up a shrine and deify them?
Have you ever been to the USA?
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 08:37:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 07:17:36 AM
I am sure that one of the reasons why the military and police are more respected in the US is that, in the US, they are seen as servants of the people, doing useful things, just like paramedics and firefighters. In Europe, the idea that the people are the masters of "public servants" is barely a generation old in some countries, and not many generations old in the others. As Europe's political system matures and the populace gets more comfortable with the idea of the rule of the people, I think they will take on the more mature attitude of Americans towards their public servants (especially those that risk themselves in public service). It isn't reverence, by any means, though. The word you are looking for is "appreciation."
It goes way beyond deserved appreciation, IMO, it's borderline worshiping them.
Really? Borderline "worship"? So if your typical American like the police anymore, they would set up a shrine and deify them?
Have you ever been to the USA?
Can you read or are you too stupid? He said he formed this view after his trip to the US.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 09:07:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 08:37:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 07:17:36 AM
I am sure that one of the reasons why the military and police are more respected in the US is that, in the US, they are seen as servants of the people, doing useful things, just like paramedics and firefighters. In Europe, the idea that the people are the masters of "public servants" is barely a generation old in some countries, and not many generations old in the others. As Europe's political system matures and the populace gets more comfortable with the idea of the rule of the people, I think they will take on the more mature attitude of Americans towards their public servants (especially those that risk themselves in public service). It isn't reverence, by any means, though. The word you are looking for is "appreciation."
It goes way beyond deserved appreciation, IMO, it's borderline worshiping them.
Really? Borderline "worship"? So if your typical American like the police anymore, they would set up a shrine and deify them?
Have you ever been to the USA?
Can you read or are you too stupid? He said he formed this view after his trip to the US.
It's true, I cannot read. You've found me out. You are so smart Marty, nobody can get anything past you.
I've been to a NASCAR race twice in person, which is known for being an extremely right-wing sport, and obviously not in a William F. Buckley intellectual way. I have to say that the worship of the military exhibited there has to be off-putting, regardless of how much you appreciate their service. The pre-race ceremony was almost like a Red Square parade.
The answer to the paradox of freedom-worshipping people being also uniform-worshipping is probably that those people aren't really freedom-worshipping in their actions or beliefs. They may use the concept of freedom to beat their political opponents over their heads, but there is more than a touch of fascism in their actual beliefs.
I love the flyovers. :)
It is like going to an airshow, without all the walking.
Oooooo! F-22's!
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 09:53:25 AM
The answer to the paradox of freedom-worshipping people being also uniform-worshipping is probably that those people aren't really freedom-worshipping in their actions or beliefs.
I don't understand how there is a paradox between being pro-military and freedom loving to begin with.
Unless, of course, you equate the military with being anti-freedom, which I think brings us back to grumblers point. I think that is a flawed assumption - the military in the US is largely seen as a force that protects and promotes freedom by those who tend to be pro-military in the relatively unsophisticated manner you are talking about.
So there is no paradox at all, and certainly not one that needs to be ever so neatly "explained" by some more purple/green Drazi "THEY are all liars who are secret fascists!" tribalism.
I'm not saying that they are liars, they're just the kinds of people to pick up a slogan without thinking through what it means, and thus come away with a highly inconsistent ideology.
I'd like a little more Prussia in my America.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 10:21:18 AM
I'm not saying that they are liars, they're just the kinds of people to pick up a slogan without thinking through what it means, and thus come away with a highly inconsistent ideology.
That may be the case, but this is a poor example, since having respect (even to the extent you claim) for the military is not inconsistent with being pro-freedom.
One can be both pro-military (even worshipfully so) AND pro-freedom at the same time.
In fact, if you asked one of them, I bet they could explain exactly how they manage to hold onto both ideas at once without much trouble. Assuming you could find one sober at a NASCAR race, of course.
WTF were you doing at a NASCAR race anyway?
Lastly....I know a lot of people who LOVE Nascar, who are most definitely NOT your stereotypical right wing, Rush Limbaugh loving Sarah Palin fans. It is kind of distressing how "mainstream" Nascar has become. :yuk:
DG is infamously a Nascar fan.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 08:37:12 AM
It goes way beyond deserved appreciation, IMO, it's borderline worshiping them.
Maybe you were not visiting the country I live in when you encountered this. Or it could be you were just hanging around with police groupies, who probably
do borderline-worship police, but are considered weird by the rest of the population.
I am always amazed at the people visitors to the states manage to run into.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 10:21:18 AM
I'm not saying that they are liars, they're just the kinds of people to pick up a slogan without thinking through what it means, and thus come away with a highly inconsistent ideology.
Nope. I am an expert in this because I signed up once for a web discussion board on this topic, and so say not only that you are wrong, but that your statement is a sad indictment of how poorly trained accountants are in how humans think.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
DG is infamously a Nascar fan.
I bet he likes the Busch brothers. :yuk:
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 10:33:39 AM
I am always amazed at the people visitors to the states manage to run into.
And how they can come to such firm conclusions about Americans after a coupla weeks. I lived in the UK for more than two years and formed no such firm conclusions about Brits.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:36:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 10:33:39 AM
I am always amazed at the people visitors to the states manage to run into.
And how they can come to such firm conclusions about Americans after a coupla weeks. I lived in the UK for more than two years and formed no such firm conclusions about Brits.
You are exceptionally slow - I found out everything there is to know about the UK, all parts of it in fact, in the 10 days I spent in London.
All Brits have bad teeth, and drink tea. And they say "Wot, wot?" all the time. They riot during soccer games a lot, and repress the Irish.
I saw this while I was there, so I know it is true.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 18, 2010, 10:34:31 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
DG is infamously a Nascar fan.
I bet he likes the Busch brothers. :yuk:
You can do it Mark Martin!
I still find it funny that Jeff Gordon owns a car but doesn't drive it but instead drives Rick Hendrick's car.
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:36:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 10:33:39 AM
I am always amazed at the people visitors to the states manage to run into.
And how they can come to such firm conclusions about Americans after a coupla weeks. I lived in the UK for more than two years and formed no such firm conclusions about Brits.
You are exceptionally slow - I found out everything there is to know about the UK, all parts of it in fact, in the 10 days I spent in London.
All Brits have bad teeth, and drink tea. And they say "Wot, wot?" all the time. They riot during soccer games a lot, and repress the Irish.
I saw this while I was there, so I know it is true.
Plus the people are surly, fat and not that clean.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
DG is infamously a Nascar fan.
Not just a NASCAR fan, but a fan of many kinds of auto racing. The reason I went to NASCAR races is because they're by far the easiest to attend. It's kind of hard to get a seat at Grand Prix of Monaco for me.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 18, 2010, 10:34:31 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
DG is infamously a Nascar fan.
I bet he likes the Busch brothers. :yuk:
Nope, Montoya fan. Followed him since his CART/Indy days.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 07:06:25 AM
I concede that NY, after 9/11, may be a special case.
Ya think?
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 11:10:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
DG is infamously a Nascar fan.
Not just a NASCAR fan, but a fan of many kinds of auto racing. The reason I went to NASCAR races is because they're by far the easiest to attend. It's kind of hard to get a seat at Grand Prix of Monaco for me.
Come to the Grand Prix of Montreal then!
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 11:34:08 AM
Come to the Grand Prix of Montreal then!
I actually might one day, especially if I can get a seat in the wall of champions section, although F1 races have a reputation for having grossly over-priced tickets.
~225$ canuck for the 3 days. For now that's ~225$ US, in 2 weeks ~230$ US.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 18, 2010, 11:48:04 AM
~225$ canuck for the 3 days. For now that's ~225$ US, in 2 weeks ~230$ US.
That's not so bad. Can you just ask your fellow Quebecans to not have a transit strike on the Grand Prix weekend, like they usually do?
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:30:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 08:37:12 AM
It goes way beyond deserved appreciation, IMO, it's borderline worshiping them.
Maybe you were not visiting the country I live in when you encountered this. Or it could be you were just hanging around with police groupies, who probably do borderline-worship police, but are considered weird by the rest of the population.
Let me tell you an anecdote, please bear with me.
When I was in Philly, Capetan Mihali (great host btw :thumbsup: ) took me to one of the two most famous cheesteak joints in town, called Pat's, located in South Philly. In front of Pat's there was its main competitor, called Geno's, world famous for their policy of only accepting orders in English. When there's a presidential campaign, candidates for each party will go to these joint and do a photo-op there trying to gain street cred in a "here I am rubbing shoulders with the salt of the earth" kind of gig. Both places have tons of pictures of celebrities eating there. Bottom line, these are not some hole in the wall dumpsters, they're actually very popular establishments.
So, after having our cheesteak (at Pat's), Capetan took me to Geno's and we walked around it just admiring the views. All around it, there were several things that really stroke me as odd, bizarre, or downright creepy. There were, besides the "English only" posters, other posters stating that servicemen, both active and retired, could always eat for free there, posters stating things like "You, foreigner, if you can speak English, you have to thank the Marines!" (I personally prefer to thank Miss Judith, my teacher when I was a kid), posters honoring the memory of officer Daniel Faulkner (The Philly policemen shot dead by Mumia Abu Jamal), a hollywood style walk of fame honoring fallen Philly policemen (quite gaudy IMO), and placards with police, firemen and emergency services badges and pictures from around the USA and some from abroad. Amongst these badges and souvenirs there were a few letters from county sheriffs congratulating the establishment, with one of them, from North Carolina's Mecklenburg county sheriff that was pretty fucking scary.
Pictures below (not mine, I googled them):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage.mac.com%2Fmr_bingley%2F.Pictures%2Fgenos4.jpg&hash=f95cfd2fcb09c3edee14f5a090a40c31ebfa0c3b)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage.mac.com%2Fmr_bingley%2F.Pictures%2Fgenos8.jpg&hash=4c4d31aa6638b94ff22da4fdbc8eeb66da225b1d)
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What do you make of this? Obviously for the owner, it's a sign of respect, appreciation and gratitude. For an observer like me, with a different mindset, worldview or however you may want to call it, it was really really strange thing, bordering as I said before in some kind of weird authority worship. Note that I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, although some parts of it were, as I said, scary and creepy from my POV, only that for an outsider like me it felt like something uncommon and absolutely unheard of.
To be devil's advocate (although I'm sure grumbler can argue for himself), all this shows is that Philly has one nutcase with a cheesesteak joint. That nutcase may also be a former cop and an ex-Marine.
More pictures of the place (I managed to find a flick gallery almost entirely devoted to it):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2139%2F2376760291_5732f9da07.jpg&hash=036f4efb246548a9372bc934e8c157b3d8507ca8)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3074%2F2377597646_faf0e5aee3.jpg&hash=aa268d7d01cfd2431952cee4ddeb3e51848df311)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2078%2F2377599856_212ab48cc1.jpg&hash=53a28f87fb95ab30e4b9187cd0dac081c46ebc32)
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Larch, I can say that I have never seen anything like that. Ever.
I am not going to say it is bizarre or creepy, but...yeah. That is so far away from typical it isn't even funny.
However, while I can understand the idea that the police are associated with "authority", I don't understand why you would assume that someone who makes a big deal about honoring them is worshipping that particular aspect of the police, rather than any number of other things the police are assocaited with in the US. Why not assume they are worshipping shiny shoes, or guns, or those goofy hats cops wear? Or better yet, why not assume nothing at all?
If you asked them, they would likely tell you that what they are honoring has nothing to do with "authority" and everything to do with service and sacrifice, two other elements that are commonly associated with being a police officer.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 12:06:37 PM
To be devil's advocate (although I'm sure grumbler can argue for himself), all this shows is that Philly has one nutcase with a cheesesteak joint. That nutcase may also be a former cop and an ex-Marine.
Heh, don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that it's not something you see everywhere over there and that the owner of the place is some kind of blowhard trying to get as much attention to its bussiness as it can. :)
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 12:11:27 PM
Larch, I can say that I have never seen anything like that. Ever.
I am not going to say it is bizarre or creepy, but...yeah. That is so far away from typical it isn't even funny.
However, while I can understand the idea that the police are associated with "authority", I don't understand why you would assume that someone who makes a big deal about honoring them is worshipping that particular aspect of the police, rather than any number of other things the police are assocaited with in the US. Why not assume they are worshipping shiny shoes, or guns, or those goofy hats cops wear? Or better yet, why not assume nothing at all?
If you asked them, they would likely tell you that what they are honoring has nothing to do with "authority" and everything to do with service and sacrifice, two other elements that are commonly associated with being a police officer.
As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. ;) It's only something to showcase the different values attached to service in the USA and in my neck of the woods.
Yeah Larch, I really don't think you can draw too much from one guy's cheesesteak shop.
You probably should have known that from the "you must speak english to order here" signs, which is also not typical.
Just curious - did you try to order in Spanish? :)
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 12:23:56 PM
Yeah Larch, I really don't think you can draw too much from one guy's cheesesteak shop.
You probably should have known that from the "you must speak english to order here" signs, which is also not typical.
Just curious - did you try to order in Spanish? :)
Or worse....French?
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself. Sure, the guy may be taking the idea to the extreme, but I don't imagine anything even remotely close taking place in Poland (or, I take it from Larchie's reaction, in Spain). Here we would have a nutso with pictures of a Pope everywhere instead, for example. :P
or worse...California English?
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:17:41 PM
As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. ;)
Right, but what I am saying is that I don't even think it is an extreme example of what you are trying to say - it is an extreme example, but I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".
QuoteIt's only something to showcase the different values attached to service in the USA and in my neck of the woods.
That is a telling point. In the US, it is considered honorable, at least among much of the population, to go into a career of service, whether that be the military, police, firefighters, etc., etc., etc.
While I don't really share in the sometimes shallow veneration that this sometimes manifests itself as, I would MUCH rather live in a society that values and respects those who go into these careers than one that belittles and mocks them.
Of course, I am a product of that very society, so I guess that is to be expected.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself.
Does it mean that the Polish society values incessant homosexuality?
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 12:33:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself.
Does it mean that the Polish society values incessant homosexuality?
Subconsciously, yes. Which is why it respects the men and women of cloth.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:34:33 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2010, 12:33:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself.
Does it mean that the Polish society values incessant homosexuality?
Subconsciously, yes. Which is why it respects the men and women of cloth.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself. Sure, the guy may be taking the idea to the extreme, but I don't imagine anything even remotely close taking place in Poland (or, I take it from Larchie's reaction, in Spain). Here we would have a nutso with pictures of a Pope everywhere instead, for example. :P
So we're back to the point that Americans respect police / military. But we already knew that.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself. Sure, the guy may be taking the idea to the extreme, but I don't imagine anything even remotely close taking place in Poland
Both Spain and Poland were authoritarian states withing a single generation - it would make sense that citizens in both states would have some ingrained suspicion of police, paramilitary and other uniformed authority figures. The US OTOH has been a functioning limited constitutional democracy for a few hundred years, and local law enforcement officers are subject to all sorts of controls. Other than with respect to certain socio-economic groups that have historically been subject to more intrusive police tactics, many Americans have no historical reason to have any particular suspicion and hostility of local authorities. It is more common to identify such authorities in a possessive way as being "our" police and firemen. That is a tendency reinforced by the fact that such organs recruit from predominantly working ("middle") class areas in the communities where the officers serve, underlining the connection between local law enforcement and the people who live in that locality.
For what it's worth in Canada I dare say the police have a long history of being very well respected. Hell a mountie in red serge is a national symbol.
The military - it's interesting. I understand of course the military was highly respected 40 years ago. But decades of spending cuts and de-emphazing the military... well 10-20 years ago it was still respected, but it became seen as something that only people with few options in life would go into.
Afghanistan has changed all that. Now the military again gets tons of respect, Rememberance Day has become huge again, that kind of thing. It is not uncommon to see "support our troops" signs, bumper stickers, etc.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 12:23:56 PMJust curious - did you try to order in Spanish? :)
Nope, we had already eaten at the joint across the street. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Here we would have a nutso with pictures of a Pope everywhere instead, for example. :P
Our nutso would sell Franco wine. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.20minutos.es%2Fmyfiles%2Fdesternillablog%2Fvino-espa%25C3%25B1ol.jpg&hash=b6821f49be8bab220194329c04b26b4f4ff8f7c3)
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 12:23:56 PMJust curious - did you try to order in Spanish? :)
Nope, we had already eaten at the joint across the street. ;)
All the more reason to walk up and order in spanish... :ph34r:
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 12:23:56 PMJust curious - did you try to order in Spanish? :)
Nope, we had already eaten at the joint across the street. ;)
All the more reason to walk up and order in spanish... :ph34r:
Apparently the guy had the policy not of refusing service (he could get sued out of his mind if he did it, I guess), but of giving the offending person a bun with cheese wiz on it alone, or something like that. I'm not paying 7 dollars for that. :P
Mumia Abu Jamal :rolleyes: :ultra:
I'm surprised that we've never had a thread wherein any Eurofruits have defended that piece of shit, actually. :huh:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 18, 2010, 12:40:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself. Sure, the guy may be taking the idea to the extreme, but I don't imagine anything even remotely close taking place in Poland
Both Spain and Poland were authoritarian states withing a single generation - it would make sense that citizens in both states would have some ingrained suspicion of police, paramilitary and other uniformed authority figures. The US OTOH has been a functioning limited constitutional democracy for a few hundred years, and local law enforcement officers are subject to all sorts of controls. Other than with respect to certain socio-economic groups that have historically been subject to more intrusive police tactics, many Americans have no historical reason to have any particular suspicion and hostility of local authorities. It is more common to identify such authorities in a possessive way as being "our" police and firemen. That is a tendency reinforced by the fact that such organs recruit from predominantly working ("middle") class areas in the communities where the officers serve, underlining the connection between local law enforcement and the people who live in that locality.
No disagreement there - I actually stated as much few pages ago. I think what Berkut et al. are arguing against is not that the American "military worship" is unjustified, but that it is non-existent.
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 01:02:02 PM
Mumia Abu Jamal :rolleyes: :ultra:
What? He was great in Airplane.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 01:12:10 PM
No disagreement there - I actually stated as much few pages ago. I think what Berkut et al. are arguing against is not that the American "military worship" is unjustified, but that it is non-existent.
Well, yeah. The word "worship" is hardly correct.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 12:46:09 PM
For what it's worth in Canada I dare say the police have a long history of being very well respected. Hell a mountie in red serge is a national symbol.
The military - it's interesting. I understand of course the military was highly respected 40 years ago. But decades of spending cuts and de-emphazing the military... well 10-20 years ago it was still respected, but it became seen as something that only people with few options in life would go into.
Afghanistan has changed all that. Now the military again gets tons of respect, Rememberance Day has become huge again, that kind of thing. It is not uncommon to see "support our troops" signs, bumper stickers, etc.
You know what is freaky? The Military is quite popular in Quebec.
Also it should be noted that the US hasn't been invaded for a long time. So the US doesn't have much experience with foreign soldiers.
Generally I respect police and soldiers. I wanted to be a soldier and I'm always polite and helpful to police. Even if they are questioning me or pulling me over. I've never had a reason to be otherwise. Even that time I went nuts and they were about to arrest me, I tried to be polite. I suppose that did pay off since they took the cuffs off and let me go. I even wrote them a letter afterwords apologizing for my behavior and making them come out there.
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:17:41 PM
As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. ;)
Right, but what I am saying is that I don't even think it is an extreme example of what you are trying to say - it is an extreme example, but I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".
On the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well. I was going to tell another anecdote in the same post but it'd be too much so I'll do it here. In NYC, when I was there, there was a big firefighter event one day on the Rockefeller Center. All the area was flooded with uniformed firemen, displaying all their equipment in some kind of showcase. There were lots of schoolbuses with children and their teachers attending. The fire commissioner of NYC gave a speech about fire prevention and administered the children an oath, with them being "honorary firefighters" and vowing to do their utmost to prevent fires and checking smoke detectors and stuff. I know that it's great to have kids taught about fire prevention, but the whole thing seems very over the top. I can't see something similar happening in Madrid, with firemen occupying a landmark for an event.
Another pet peeve of mine were the firefighter's uniforms. Why do they have such elaborate dress uniforms, complete with medals and everything? Is that something from NYC alone, or are other cities' firemen also dressed that way for ceremonial purposes? As I sad, they resembled military officers rather than firemen. Minsky explained it a bit to me, what with the historical background of it, but still it seemed quite exagerated.
And there are other things, maybe smaller, maybe more discreet, maybe things you're used to and don't see as special, but still there.
QuoteQuoteIt's only something to showcase the different values attached to service in the USA and in my neck of the woods.
That is a telling point. In the US, it is considered honorable, at least among much of the population, to go into a career of service, whether that be the military, police, firefighters, etc., etc., etc.
While I don't really share in the sometimes shallow veneration that this sometimes manifests itself as, I would MUCH rather live in a society that values and respects those who go into these careers than one that belittles and mocks them.
Of course, I am a product of that very society, so I guess that is to be expected.
I don't think that they're belittled or mocked over here, as Aegelastus (I think) said, they're "just there". They're people who do their jobs and that's it. They don't enjoy the veneration that their American counterparts do. I don't say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's quite over the top on occasions and very much in-your-face for an outsider.
You're surprised at there being a lot of firefighters at a big firefighter event?
You know the various Law Societies put on a Law Day once a year, where you have kids being taught about courtrooms and laws, a bunch of lawyers will be around... but it sure doesn't mean people worship lawyers. :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2010, 01:28:49 PM
You're surprised at there being a lot of firefighters at a big firefighter event?
Nope. :P I just wanted to say that the whole setup seemed over the top. ;) There were two fire engines with their telescopic stairs (? No idea of its name in English) elevated and used as props for a ginormous Stars & Stripes flag to serve as background for the podium, there were plenty of trucks of all kind (hazmat and the like), the area was enclosed. Lots of television and media. It seemed to be quite a big deal.
I have a picture of it, I'll see if I can get it scanned.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:17:41 PM
As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. ;)
Right, but what I am saying is that I don't even think it is an extreme example of what you are trying to say - it is an extreme example, but I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".
On the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well. I was going to tell another anecdote in the same post but it'd be too much so I'll do it here. In NYC, when I was there, there was a big firefighter event one day on the Rockefeller Center. All the area was flooded with uniformed firemen, displaying all their equipment in some kind of showcase. There were lots of schoolbuses with children and their teachers attending. The fire commissioner of NYC gave a speech about fire prevention and administered the children an oath, with them being "honorary firefighters" and vowing to do their utmost to prevent fires and checking smoke detectors and stuff. I know that it's great to have kids taught about fire prevention, but the whole thing seems very over the top. I can't see something similar happening in Madrid, with firemen occupying a landmark for an event.
Another pet peeve of mine were the firefighter's uniforms. Why do they have such elaborate dress uniforms, complete with medals and everything? Is that something from NYC alone, or are other cities' firemen also dressed that way for ceremonial purposes? As I sad, they resembled military officers rather than firemen. Minsky explained it a bit to me, what with the historical background of it, but still it seemed quite exagerated.
And there are other things, maybe smaller, maybe more discreet, maybe things you're used to and don't see as special, but still there.
That example doesn't evidence "authority worship" anymore than the other one does though.
I bet you could not find anyone who attended such a rally who would agree that they thing they admire and respect about fireman is that they are authority figures. I don't even think fireman ARE authority figures, really.
I think you are projecting a rather nasty little bit of pseudo-fascism on the entire thing that simply does not exist.
While you may not find the respect given to those in public service palatable, you could at least have the basic courtesy of not casting it as something it is not so you can feed your own rather shallow misconceptions about Americans.
It
Has
Nothing
To
Do
With
Authority
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 01:02:02 PM
Mumia Abu Jamal :rolleyes: :ultra:
I'm surprised that we've never had a thread wherein any Eurofruits have defended that piece of shit, actually. :huh:
I had to put up with Antioch College slurping that murderer's cock every graduation. Thankfully, Antioch College is closed, because nobody wants to go to that fruit farm anymore. Goddamn fucking hippies.
Also:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2139%2F2376760291_5732f9da07.jpg&hash=036f4efb246548a9372bc934e8c157b3d8507ca8)
I want that T-shirt.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:34:07 PM
I just wanted to say that the whole setup seemed over the top. ;)
If there's one cliche about the US that is completely true it is that they do a lot of things "over the top".
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 01:34:59 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:17:41 PM
As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. ;)
Right, but what I am saying is that I don't even think it is an extreme example of what you are trying to say - it is an extreme example, but I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".
On the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well. I was going to tell another anecdote in the same post but it'd be too much so I'll do it here. In NYC, when I was there, there was a big firefighter event one day on the Rockefeller Center. All the area was flooded with uniformed firemen, displaying all their equipment in some kind of showcase. There were lots of schoolbuses with children and their teachers attending. The fire commissioner of NYC gave a speech about fire prevention and administered the children an oath, with them being "honorary firefighters" and vowing to do their utmost to prevent fires and checking smoke detectors and stuff. I know that it's great to have kids taught about fire prevention, but the whole thing seems very over the top. I can't see something similar happening in Madrid, with firemen occupying a landmark for an event.
Another pet peeve of mine were the firefighter's uniforms. Why do they have such elaborate dress uniforms, complete with medals and everything? Is that something from NYC alone, or are other cities' firemen also dressed that way for ceremonial purposes? As I sad, they resembled military officers rather than firemen. Minsky explained it a bit to me, what with the historical background of it, but still it seemed quite exagerated.
And there are other things, maybe smaller, maybe more discreet, maybe things you're used to and don't see as special, but still there.
That example doesn't evidence "authority worship" anymore than the other one does though.
I bet you could not find anyone who attended such a rally who would agree that they thing they admire and respect about fireman is that they are authority figures. I don't even think fireman ARE authority figures, really.
I think you are projecting a rather nasty little bit of pseudo-fascism on the entire thing that simply does not exist.
While you may not find the respect given to those in public service palatable, you could at least have the basic courtesy of not casting it as something it is not so you can feed your own rather shallow misconceptions about Americans.
It
Has
Nothing
To
Do
With
Authority
Now you're the one that is projecting. I never said that it was pseudo-fascistic, or that it made me feel uneasy, that I found it unpalatable or anything. I only used that event as an anecdotical evidence of the level of resources, attention and support that NYC firemen could get to get their message across. I can't see Spanish firefighters doing something similar.
Greasy peoples don't like firefighters or cops. Film at 11.
I am going to defend my Spanish brother. He isn't Black Dragon 2.0, Isebrand 2.5 or Martim 3.1.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 18, 2010, 01:36:27 PMI want that T-shirt.
IIRC, they sold it over at the joint. You can always make the trip to Philly, treat yourself to one of Geno's cheesteaks and buy yourself a T-shirt. ;)
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 18, 2010, 01:44:57 PM
I am going to defend my Spanish brother. He isn't Black Dragon 2.0, Isebrand 2.5 or Martim 3.1.
:blush: :cheers:
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 18, 2010, 01:44:57 PM
I am going to defend my Spanish brother. He isn't Black Dragon 2.0, Isebrand 2.5 or Martim 3.1.
gay
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:25:57 PM
Another pet peeve of mine were the firefighter's uniforms. Why do they have such elaborate dress uniforms, complete with medals and everything? Is that something from NYC alone, or are other cities' firemen also dressed that way for ceremonial purposes? As I sad, they resembled military officers rather than firemen. Minsky explained it a bit to me, what with the historical background of it, but still it seemed quite exagerated.
Yes historically many of the early NYC fire companies were private volunteer companies sponsored by Tammany (machine) politicians. They were more like social clubs than serious fire fighting organizations. They wore outlandish uniforms because the whole idea was to attract attention - kind of like the 19th century equivalent of a TV spot or a campaign bill board. When the Civil War came, a number of these companies joined together to form their own regiment, which fought using French-Morrocan style "Zouave" uniforms. Within NYC there was a trend towards professionalization after the Barnum Museum fire, but the volunteer brigades were never entirely phased out, and are still quite common as one heads upstate. And the new professional force simply absorbed much of the personnel, equipment, and culture of the old volunteer fire clubs.
Comparatively speaking, things have toned down quite a bit since then.
Now I want to watch Gangs of New York again, and watch union troops shoot the mob.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:41:53 PM
Now you're the one that is projecting. I never said that it was pseudo-fascistic, or that it made me feel uneasy, that I found it unpalatable or anything. I only used that event as an anecdotical evidence of the level of resources, attention and support that NYC firemen could get to get their message across. I can't see Spanish firefighters doing something similar.
Quote from: Berkut...I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".
Quote from: LarchOn the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well.
Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it is what you said.
Again - nothing to do with "authority". I mostly agree with you, except that every time you keep dragging out the "authority worship" thing, which is simply wrong, and is precisely why DG brought up the supposed paradox of people who claim to love freedom being a bit fascist in their support of authority for its own sake.
It is only a paradox if you assume that the thing they care about is the authority that is represented. That is wrong for 2 reasons:
1. Firefighters do not represent authority, and
2. Even when talking about police (who do), the thing being respected/venerated/whatever is not their authority, it is their service and sacrifice.
A little thinking would in fact make it clear that it cannot really be "authority worship" if for no other reason than the two primary examples provided (police and firefighters) do not even share that trait.
I think that the insistence that this is some kind of "authority worship" says more about the person leveling that claim than the people it is being leveled at.
Ah, The Sun. As if The Daily Mail isn't bad enough. :bowler:
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:49:53 PM
Our nutso would sell Franco wine. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.20minutos.es%2Fmyfiles%2Fdesternillablog%2Fvino-espa%25C3%25B1ol.jpg&hash=b6821f49be8bab220194329c04b26b4f4ff8f7c3)
What would it take to get a bottle of that imported? I imagine keeping that around as a conversation piece would be pretty amusing.
I think this thread is telling us much more about the Larch than about anything else. Firefighters doing extravagant things to try to make kids aware of the dangers of fire? Zounds! Call the newspapers and let's get the film ready for the 11 o'clock broadcast!
In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 18, 2010, 02:59:17 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:49:53 PM
Our nutso would sell Franco wine. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.20minutos.es%2Fmyfiles%2Fdesternillablog%2Fvino-espa%25C3%25B1ol.jpg&hash=b6821f49be8bab220194329c04b26b4f4ff8f7c3)
What would it take to get a bottle of that imported? I imagine keeping that around as a conversation piece would be pretty amusing.
You know you just want to pour it over your naked body and revel in the fascism.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 12:49:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
Here we would have a nutso with pictures of a Pope everywhere instead, for example. :P
Our nutso would sell Franco wine. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.20minutos.es%2Fmyfiles%2Fdesternillablog%2Fvino-espa%25C3%25B1ol.jpg&hash=b6821f49be8bab220194329c04b26b4f4ff8f7c3)
:D
Btw, when I said "Pope" obviously you realise I meant the real Pope, not the German upstart. :P
I remember when he died, there were his pictures everywhere. My favourite was the one in the window of a shop with women lingerie. :D
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 03:40:36 PM
In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.
At least Spanish citizens who cross borders and murder innocent people are not welcomed home as heroes, or offered free lunch in some fascist steak houses.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 03:40:36 PM
In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.
At least Spanish citizens who cross borders and murder innocent people are not welcomed home as heroes, or offered free lunch in some fascist steak houses.
Untrue, as you well know. They are not only welcomed and fed as heroic assistants to the Nazis, they are eligible to become head of state. If they have killed some Jews, they are also made head of state (but of Poland, not Spain).
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Btw, when I said "Pope" obviously you realise I meant the real Pope, not the German upstart. :P
The only real Pope was the first one.
And he was a Jew, so the Polacks would have killed him! :cool:
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 04:59:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Btw, when I said "Pope" obviously you realise I meant the real Pope, not the German upstart. :P
The only real Pope was the first one.
And he was a Jew, so the Polacks would have killed him! :cool:
This is not funny.
Larch: Have you seen the movie The Hurricane? A white working class guy in Philly expressing support for the cops carries a lot of subtext.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 03:40:36 PM
I think this thread is telling us much more about the Larch than about anything else. Firefighters doing extravagant things to try to make kids aware of the dangers of fire? Zounds! Call the newspapers and let's get the film ready for the 11 o'clock broadcast!
In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.
I don't think they'd do that anywhere in Europe, even Britain.
Bussing in schoolkids? Taking over a public place? Making the kids take an oath? That to me just looks wierd, and I am sure it seems the same to my neighbours in Europe. As someone posted above, it's "over the top", but not unexpected in the USA.
The funny thing is that the three things I have written in italics, when taken in COMPLETE isolation, sound an awful lot like the practises of regimes such as North Korea. I'm very glad America is a genuinely democratic Republic, as as an authoritarian regime you would be terrifying.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 05:59:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 03:40:36 PM
I think this thread is telling us much more about the Larch than about anything else. Firefighters doing extravagant things to try to make kids aware of the dangers of fire? Zounds! Call the newspapers and let's get the film ready for the 11 o'clock broadcast!
In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.
Making the kids take an oath?
You mean the pledge of allegiance? The kid doesn't have to recite it. Lord knows how many times I faked that in my years of forced work in the K-12 system.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 05:59:51 PM
I don't think they'd do that anywhere in Europe, even Britain.
Bussing in schoolkids? Taking over a public place? Making the kids take an oath? That to me just looks wierd, and I am sure it seems the same to my neighbours in Europe. As someone posted above, it's "over the top", but not unexpected in the USA.
Kids in Europe do not go to public places on buses? I suppose not. Are there such things as school buses in Europe? We have them here, and bus kids around in them all the time. Doesn't seem weird or over the top at all, but then I am not European. Your tops may be very low.
As for using public spaces for public events, that also happens here all the time. I know Euros are afraid they will get all Nuremberg-rallyish if they meet in public spaces in any numbers, but I think you ought to try trusting yourself more. You also see less crowding in all the private places where you hold public events.
Dunno about the oath thing; I have never seen it. What is the oath, and how are the kids being made to take it? That would seem weird to me and my neighbors in the US. Are you
sure this is what you were seeing?
QuoteThe funny thing is that the three things I have written in italics, when taken in COMPLETE isolation, sound an awful lot like the practises of regimes such as North Korea.
It is kinda weird to think that Europeans have so lost perspective that they think having public events in public paces is found only in North Korea. Maybe if you got out into the world more, you would see that this isn't true - you see it throughout Asia, South America, Africa, North America, and Oceania. Busing school kids to events probably happens more in Australia than North Korea, but maybe more often in North Korea than in Denmark or Britain.
QuoteI'm very glad America is a genuinely democratic Republic, as as an authoritarian regime you would be terrifying.
Probably not as terrifying as the European authoritarian regimes have been, because of the traditional American individualism and lack of respect for authority, but I am very glad that America is genuinely democratic as well, and hope that Europe's conversion to the same standard is permanent this time.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 06:22:21 PM
Kids in Europe do not go to public places on buses? I suppose not. Are there such things as school buses in Europe? We have them here, and bus kids around in them all the time. Doesn't seem weird or over the top at all, but then I am not European. Your tops may be very low.
School trips yes, to museums and the like. Having
multiple schools send them all at the same time to a fireman's rally in a public space? No.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 06:22:21 PM
As for using public spaces for public events, that also happens here all the time. I know Euros are afraid they will get all Nuremberg-rallyish if they meet in public spaces in any numbers, but I think you ought to try trusting yourself more. You also see less crowding in all the private places where you hold public events.
:lol:
It's nothing to do with Nuremburg! Consider what country I live in. It's the idea of holding a mass public fire prevention day that's so strange. Or a mass crime prevention day. Firemen and policemen go to the schools rather than the other way round. In fact, isn't that more of a "servant of the people" method than public rallies anyway?
Hey...hasn't this come up before recently on Languish anyway? :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 06:22:21 PM
Dunno about the oath thing; I have never seen it. What is the oath, and how are the kids being made to take it? That would seem weird to me and my neighbors in the US. Are you sure this is what you were seeing?
Haven't got a clue - don't forget I am quoting my reaction and what I feel the general reaction here would be to what Larch's experience was. Ask him for confirmation. I believe he wrote that they were taking an oath regarding the prevention and reporting of fires.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 06:22:21 PM
It is kinda weird to think that Europeans have so lost perspective that they think having public events in public paces is found only in North Korea. Maybe if you got out into the world more, you would see that this isn't true - you see it throughout Asia, South America, Africa, North America, and Oceania. Busing school kids to events probably happens more in Australia than North Korea, but maybe more often in North Korea than in Denmark or Britain.
Grumbler, sometimes I despair of you. I had assumed that you wouldn't bother making the snarky comment since I had specifically said the "three points" when "taken in COMPLETE isolation". And you yourself seem surprised by the idea of the oath. Commenting on one or two parts of a three part statement that needs to be taken as a whole is a favourite trick of yours, and the only person it makes look stupid is you.
But to respond to your own words. So when people are bussed to public events in Asia, South America, Africa, North America and Oceania taking an oath regarding the subject matter of the event is normal then? Because due to your deliberate selectiveness in responding to my statement, that is what you have implied.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 06:22:21 PM
Probably not as terrifying as the European authoritarian regimes have been, because of the traditional American individualism and lack of respect for authority, but I am very glad that America is genuinely democratic as well, and hope that Europe's conversion to the same standard is permanent this time.
Given the enviable American achievements over the last century economically speaking, and the impressive natural resources of your country, I genuinely think an authoriatian regime in America would be much scarier than the Nazis, except possibly in the field of Eugenics...and even then, I am not entirely sure given some of the things your fringe groups seem to believe.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 06:48:37 PM
School trips yes, to museums and the like. Having multiple schools send them all at the same time to a fireman's rally in a public space? No.
So it is the fact that it was a fire prevention rally that bothered you? The fact that it was in a public space? the fact that it was multiple schools? I am still mystified.
QuoteIt's nothing to do with Nuremburg! Consider what country I live in. It's the idea of holding a mass public fire prevention day that's so strange. Or a mass crime prevention day. Firemen and policemen go to the schools rather than the other way round. In fact, isn't that more of a "servant of the people" method than public rallies anyway?
Firemen and policemen go to the schools around here as well, but this isn't New York City, where bringing kids together is easy and fast. I have never seen anything like what Larchie and Minsky describe, but I don't think it "weird" because I haven;t seen it. Big city types do lots of things we don't do outside the big cities.
QuoteHaven't got a clue - don't forget I am quoting my reaction and what I feel the general reaction here would be to what Larch's experience was. Ask him for confirmation. I believe he wrote that they were taking an oath regarding the prevention and reporting of fires.
Ah. I think we can dispense with that part of it, then.
QuoteGrumbler, sometimes I despair of you. I had assumed that you wouldn't bother making the snarky comment since I had specifically said the "three points" when "taken in COMPLETE isolation". And you yourself seem surprised by the idea of the oath. Commenting on one or two parts of a three part statement that needs to be taken as a whole is a favourite trick of yours, and the only person it makes look stupid is you.
:huh: If you have three different points, and take them in isolation, that means you are dealing with them individually (isolated from one another). That is exactly how I responded. If that's not what you meant, then you mis-spoke or I mis-heard.
If you mean to say that, if one were to take Larch's story at face value and isolated from everything else you knew, it would sound totalitarian, I wouldn't disagree - but that its because this is how he wanted it to sound.
QuoteBut to respond to your own words. So when people are bussed to public events in Asia, South America, Africa, North America and Oceania taking an oath regarding the subject matter of the event is normal then? Because due to your deliberate selectiveness in responding to my statement, that is what you have implied.
Not only is it not normal in the world, it isn't normal in the US either. The selectiveness isn't on my part, it is on yours. You are making an anecdote into a true sample, ad that is always dangerous.
QuoteGiven the enviable American achievements over the last century economically speaking, and the impressive natural resources of your country, I genuinely think an authoriatian regime in America would be much scarier than the Nazis, except possibly in the field of Eugenics...and even then, I am not entirely sure given some of the things your fringe groups seem to believe.
The problem is that an authoritarian regime in the US wouldn't even be as successful as the British one was. The country would be racked by strikes at the least, and civil war might well be likely. The military would be split between those who honored their oaths and those who thought loyalty to an athoritarian commander was more important than their oaths... it would be a mess.
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:25:57 PM
There were two fire engines with their telescopic stairs (? No idea of its name in English)
They're called ladders.
Quote from: Berkut on March 18, 2010, 02:35:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2010, 01:41:53 PM
Now you're the one that is projecting. I never said that it was pseudo-fascistic, or that it made me feel uneasy, that I found it unpalatable or anything. I only used that event as an anecdotical evidence of the level of resources, attention and support that NYC firemen could get to get their message across. I can't see Spanish firefighters doing something similar.
Quote from: Berkut...I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".
Quote from: LarchOn the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well.
Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it is what you said.
Again - nothing to do with "authority". I mostly agree with you, except that every time you keep dragging out the "authority worship" thing, which is simply wrong, and is precisely why DG brought up the supposed paradox of people who claim to love freedom being a bit fascist in their support of authority for its own sake.
It is only a paradox if you assume that the thing they care about is the authority that is represented. That is wrong for 2 reasons:
1. Firefighters do not represent authority, and
2. Even when talking about police (who do), the thing being respected/venerated/whatever is not their authority, it is their service and sacrifice.
A little thinking would in fact make it clear that it cannot really be "authority worship" if for no other reason than the two primary examples provided (police and firefighters) do not even share that trait.
I think that the insistence that this is some kind of "authority worship" says more about the person leveling that claim than the people it is being leveled at.
I think that we're laregely in agreement, but you're getting quite wound up on the "authority" thing, which I personally have no problem about defining or describing in some other way (uniforms, servicemen, whatever), in order to avoid the endless debate about semantics. You yourself called it "shallow veneration of service", or something like that, which I'm perfectly cool with as a definition. :)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2010, 05:41:03 PM
Larch: Have you seen the movie The Hurricane? A white working class guy in Philly expressing support for the cops carries a lot of subtext.
Nope, haven't seen it. I get the overtones of what you imply, though.
First thing. I HATE cropping posts for replies at this time of day. For some reason around midnight to 3am when I try it I have a massively delayed cursor reaction, on the order of 30 seconds quite often. It is a right royal pain. :mad:
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 08:15:40 PM
:huh: If you have three different points, and take them in isolation, that means you are dealing with them individually (isolated from one another). That is exactly how I responded. If that's not what you meant, then you mis-spoke or I mis-heard.
If you mean to say that, if one were to take Larch's story at face value and isolated from everything else you knew, it would sound totalitarian, I wouldn't disagree - but that its because this is how he wanted it to sound.
The three actions I listed were italicised, to indicate the continuity of the thought, and to highlight them for the next paragraph where I explicitly grouped them under one heading. Your final sentence pretty much expresses the point I made, although I deliberately removed the actions from the context of Larch's story for the point I was making, as it had been these points taken in isolation that had led me on to the consideration of how scary the USA would be as a dictatorship.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 08:15:40 PM
The problem is that an authoritarian regime in the US wouldn't even be as successful as the British one was. The country would be racked by strikes at the least, and civil war might well be likely. The military would be split between those who honored their oaths and those who thought loyalty to an athoritarian commander was more important than their oaths... it would be a mess.
I'd ask you about what exact period you were referring to when you spoke about the "British authoritarian regime" but I strongly suspect that would lead us on to a subject on which agreement between us would be genuinely impossible and one that I studiously avoid discussing on internet fora.
As for your points...well, you seem to be talking more about events during the creation of such a regime rather than the abilities of such a regime that was already in place. While strikes could, and would, happen under such a regime (and would probably be put down very bloodily) your comments about civil war and the split of the military aren't really germane to the thought of what an authoritarian regime in place in the USA could achieve.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 06:22:21 PM
Dunno about the oath thing; I have never seen it. What is the oath, and how are the kids being made to take it? That would seem weird to me and my neighbors in the US. Are you sure this is what you were seeing?
Haven't got a clue - don't forget I am quoting my reaction and what I feel the general reaction here would be to what Larch's experience was. Ask him for confirmation. I believe he wrote that they were taking an oath regarding the prevention and reporting of fires.
I managed to find an article about the event in the FDNY website, so you can read about it to your hearts content. ;)
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/events/2009/100509a.shtml (http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/events/2009/100509a.shtml)
QuoteFDNY Kicks off Fire Prevention Week in Rockefeller Center,
Swears in More Than 2,000 Junior Firefighters
Wearing red fire helmets, more than 2,000 children raised their right hand and pledged to "practice fire safety and share what I have learned with others."
The school children's oath as a junior firefighter - which echoed from the Rockefeller Center Ice Rink on Oct. 5 - helped kick off the FDNY's annual Fire Prevention Week.
"Thank you all for helping us save lives," said Chief of Department Salvatore Cassano. "With your help we'll keep New York fire safe."
The children, who hailed from 30 schools located throughout the five boroughs, were treated to demonstrations by firefighters, including high-angle rescue and vehicle extraction. They also got the chance to tour fire engines and fire trucks, and learn about fire safety from the Department's Fire Safety Education team.
It was all part of the annual Fire Prevention Week, which helps the Department inform the public about the importance of fire safety and fire prevention.
Lt. Anthony Mancuso, from the Bureau of Fire Safety Education, spoke to the crowd about the importance of changing smoke alarm batteries, practicing fire escape plans and calling 9-1-1.
"I hope you all will learn as much as you can about fire safety, then go home and teach your families about how to stay fire safe," he said.
Student Tony Jackson, 9, from P.S. 63 in Ozone Park, Queens, said he's going to do just that: "I want my family to always be fire safe."
National Fire Prevention Week was established in 1922, to commemorate the Great Chicago Fire on Oct. 8, 1871, that killed more than 250 people, left 100,000 homeless and destroyed more than 17,400 structures. Fire departments throughout the country have since commemorated the anniversary every year, in the second week of October, teaching others about how to stay fire safe.
There's a picture gallery as well:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/photo/galleries/2009/100509a/100509a_01.shtml (http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/photo/galleries/2009/100509a/100509a_01.shtml)
Edit: Here's another article with a better picture on it:
http://www.peepswim.com/2009/10/2000-jr-firefighters-sworn-in-at.html (http://www.peepswim.com/2009/10/2000-jr-firefighters-sworn-in-at.html)
As for Grumbler's continued difficulty with understanding what bothers me about the scene that Larch has described, I fear I may have to fall back on that hoary old goat of a phrase "cultural differences".
Perhaps it is the contrast of such a regimented approach to the ethos of individualism expressed by so many Americans?
Perhaps it is the cost of such an event, which surely must be more than sending firemen in to lecture schools or classes individually, rather than bussing them in en masse?*
Perhaps it is simply an atavistic rejection based on a perception that the whole event is overblown and out of proportion?
Perhaps it is simply that such an extravagant display is simply "not done" over here, and I am "old school" in this respect?
Suffice it to say, that I am not convinced that such an event would take place over here, even in London, and leave it at that. Fire engines, Fire crews are regular participants at events, but they do not have events built around them in this country, to the best of my knowledge and experience.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 08:38:25 PM
The three actions I listed were italicised, to indicate the continuity of the thought, and to highlight them for the next paragraph where I explicitly grouped them under one heading. Your final sentence pretty much expresses the point I made, although I deliberately removed the actions from the context of Larch's story for the point I was making, as it had been these points taken in isolation that had led me on to the consideration of how scary the USA would be as a dictatorship.
The US would be scary as a dictatorship even if it didn't bus school kids to the Robotics competition or the Physics Fair or the Spelling Bee or whatever.
QuoteI'd ask you about what exact period you were referring to when you spoke about the "British authoritarian regime" but I strongly suspect that would lead us on to a subject on which agreement between us would be genuinely impossible and one that I studiously avoid discussing on internet fora.
Okay. :)
QuoteAs for your points...well, you seem to be talking more about events during the creation of such a regime rather than the abilities of such a regime that was already in place. While strikes could, and would, happen under such a regime (and would probably be put down very bloodily) your comments about civil war and the split of the military aren't really germane to the thought of what an authoritarian regime in place in the USA could achieve.
I'd ask you about what exactly an "an authoritarian regime in place in the USA could achieve" but I strongly suspect that would lead us on to a subject on which agreement between us would be genuinely impossible and one that I studiously avoid discussing on internet fora.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 18, 2010, 08:53:59 PM
As for Grumbler's continued difficulty with understanding what bothers me about the scene that Larch has described, I fear I may have to fall back on that hoary old goat of a phrase "cultural differences".
Perhaps it is the contrast of such a regimented approach to the ethos of individualism expressed by so many Americans?
I guess some people don't understand anything about the US ethos of individualism, if they think a bunch of kids learning about fire safety is a threat to it. This is in NYC, of course, which uses the publicity of such events to get the word out to the 900,000+ kids who couldn't be there that day. I guess that is just a cultural difference, as you say, between British notions of individualism and American notions.
QuotePerhaps it is the cost of such an event, which surely must be more than sending firemen in to lecture schools or classes individually, rather than bussing them in en masse?*
How much did it cost? How much does sending firefighters to each school cost? What is the reletive effectiveness of the two approaches?
QuotePerhaps it is simply an atavistic rejection based on a perception that the whole event is overblown and out of proportion?
Perhaps. Remember that this is "overblown" precisely because it does get attention, and does let the school-aged kids in NYC who couldn't be there know that they can do something about fire safety.
QuotePerhaps it is simply that such an extravagant display is simply "not done" over here, and I am "old school" in this respect?
I understand. The strange can be scary, especially when you are from societies that shun the different. i am pretty sure that it has no bearing on authoritarian regimes, though. Except maybe the mob getting some "no show" jobs to award to members.
QuoteSuffice it to say, that I am not convinced that such an event would take place over here, even in London, and leave it at that.
Oh, I am quite convinced of that. Lots of stuff happens in NYC that would not happen elsewhere in the US, let alone London. I could see a big fire safety rally in other big US cities, though. After all, as we have pointed out before, in the US firefighters and police are not considered "them," they are considered part of "us" and so people are willing to listen to them about fire safety and whatnot, rather than shrugging and wondering what their ulterior motive is for talking about it.
Well this is the stupidest argument I've ever seen on Languish. And we've had some really stupid ones. Well at least we'll know that when the American Hitler rises to conquer the world we know where it all started. Grade schoolers on a field trip to learn fire safety.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 18, 2010, 10:26:47 PM
Well this is the stupidest argument I've ever seen on Languish. And we've had some really stupid ones. Well at least we'll know that when the American Hitler rises to conquer the world we know where it all started. Grade schoolers on a field trip to learn fire safety.
:lol: Sad but true.
The similarities are startling:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Ffdny%2Fimages%2Funits%2Fphoto%2Fgalleries%2F2009%2F100509a%2F100509a_02.jpg&hash=1b708aa7e8bc8eb470151e6a6e96dc7318dc52bf)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ushmm.org%2Flcmedia%2Fphoto%2Flc%2Fimage%2F69%2F69418.jpg&hash=152bad632829d3c86a41f3d676c7bb6b3bcbdc68)
The Führer's Fireman. :wub:
For decades German firemen have used this type of helmet ...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derfachhandel.de%2Fbilder%2Fprodukte%2Fgross%2F18_1.jpg&hash=24849b35179e284a5f4d88105df9287bf8be259d)
:whistle:
I think it is more a case of expectations. In Europe the fire department is a service provided by and paid for by the government. Those who do it do it as a job. It is not seen as a calling or as a service.
I am, of course, generalising for an entire continent.. but don't let that stop any of you.
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:19:51 AM
I think it is more a case of expectations. In Europe the fire department is a service provided by and paid for by the government. Those who do it do it as a job. It is not seen as a calling or as a service.
Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.
Quote from: Syt on March 19, 2010, 03:22:19 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:19:51 AM
I think it is more a case of expectations. In Europe the fire department is a service provided by and paid for by the government. Those who do it do it as a job. It is not seen as a calling or as a service.
Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.
How is that an objection? I was referring to the expectation of the public, not the means by which the service is provided.
On a slightly different topic, Feuerwehr in zeit der Nationalsozialismus, fuck those Nazis and the Feuerwehrpolitzei. And, the first Freiwilligefeuerwehr was founded by Napoleon. And, with all those volunteers, Germany has more firefighters than the US.
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:41:30 AM
. And, with all those volunteers, Germany has more firefighters than the US.
:o
Germany is once again getting round the disarmament provisions of the post-war settlement!
Quote from: Warspite on March 19, 2010, 03:48:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:41:30 AM
. And, with all those volunteers, Germany has more firefighters than the US.
:o
Germany is once again getting round the disarmament provisions of the post-war settlement!
You should see their fire trucks.
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:41:30 AM
Quote
Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.
I was referring to the expectation of the public, not the means by which the service is provided.
Well, the expectation of the public with regards to volunteer firemen is that they hold charity balls and drink a lot.
Quote from: Syt on March 19, 2010, 04:30:24 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:41:30 AM
Quote
Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.
I was referring to the expectation of the public, not the means by which the service is provided.
Well, the expectation of the public with regards to volunteer firemen is that they hold charity balls and drink a lot.
In Poland people think many of them are arsonists or at least pyromaniacs. :P
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2010, 04:42:41 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 19, 2010, 04:30:24 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2010, 03:41:30 AM
Quote
Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.
I was referring to the expectation of the public, not the means by which the service is provided.
Well, the expectation of the public with regards to volunteer firemen is that they hold charity balls and drink a lot.
In Poland people think many of them are arsonists or at least pyromaniacs. :P
Don't worry, most volunteer firefighters here are as well.
Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.
Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 05:49:37 AM
A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused.
Is this really all that unusual? Are there countries where criticism from foreigners is welcomed and embraced?
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 05:49:37 AM
Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.
Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.
We're a very insecure people, and want to be loved by everyone, and get very upset at the slightest criticism. In that way, we're the geopolitical equivalent of a chick you knew in high school.
Although admittedly we don't ban movies that paint us in a bad light like some francophone countries.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2010, 06:07:47 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 05:49:37 AM
A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused.
Is this really all that unusual? Are there countries where criticism from foreigners is welcomed and embraced?
I think there are places where it is much more welcome, where citizens are willing to pick and chose from observations from foreigners in order to either foster political points (Canada being amusingly used in such a way in the US now...). The contrast is great in the US because many Americans love - and use effectively - self-depreciating humor, including for their own country, but that evaporates whenever the context is enlarged with foreigners themselves, frequently deemed incapable of understanding or comparing meaningfully what they see. Americans believe so much in their own exceptionalism that they usually feel they have nothing or very little to gain from outside sources. If something is recognized as bad in the US, then it must be worse elsewhere, and if it is good in the US, then it must be less good elsewhere. Or at best, it is so different to be impossible to compare.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:00:31 PM
I'd ask you about what exactly an "an authoritarian regime in place in the USA could achieve" but I strongly suspect that would lead us on to a subject on which agreement between us would be genuinely impossible and one that I studiously avoid discussing on internet fora.
:lol:
Well, it's a hoary old claim of the radicalised juvenilia that the USA uses its economic and technological might to rule the world, with other governments just its' puppets. :tinfoil:
If the USA had an authoritarian regime on the lines of Nazi Germany, for example, this might actually be true. ;)
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 06:19:02 AM
I think there are places where it is much more welcome, where citizens are willing to pick and chose from observations from foreigners in order to either foster political points (Canada being amusingly used in such a way in the US now...). The contrast is great in the US because many Americans love - and use effectively - self-depreciating humor, including for their own country, but that evaporates whenever the context is enlarged with foreigners themselves, frequently deemed incapable of understanding or comparing meaningfully what they see. Americans believe so much in their own exceptionalism that they usually feel they have nothing or very little to gain from outside sources. If something is recognized as bad in the US, then it must be worse elsewhere, and if it is good in the US, then it must be less good elsewhere. Or at best, it is so different to be impossible to compare.
You may be right, but there are two points I would like you to consider.
America gets bashed constantly by foreigners. So whereas the first critical foreigner to visit the Faroe Islands in 50 years might have the value of novelty, the millionth foreign film slamming the superficiality of American culture or the millionth speech by a leftist politican blaming all the world's woes on American policy are closer to straws on the camel's back.
The flip side of that coin is that for non-Americans negative comments about the US are such a part of everyday life that they might lose sight of the fact that anyone can take offense at them, because obviously no one else around you does. I am reminded of Fromagia's story of his trip back to England with his American wife, during which his brother started to slag off the US, to his and his wife's embarassment.
Finally, I am sure you gathered more data on this topic during your time in the US, so I will just state the obvious and say one should not try to draw any generalizable rules from grumbler's response to Larch's comments.
It's like we discuss these topics over and over again and constantly rehash the same arguments.
It's amazing how you people cry constantly about being bashed by foreigners, whereas it's a matter of course for each day of Languish to make jokes or disparaging comments about pretty much every other nation in the world (example being CdM's pretty much constant bullshit about the alleged European antisemitism). Americans pretty much constantly express their contempt for every other nation in the world (which is a part of the American "exceptionalist" paradigm) but seem extremely thin skinned when the same kind of generalizations (often ignorant - as 99% of American opinions about the rest of the world) are hurtled their way instead.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:15:16 PM
I guess some people don't understand anything about the US ethos of individualism, if they think a bunch of kids learning about fire safety is a threat to it. This is in NYC, of course, which uses the publicity of such events to get the word out to the 900,000+ kids who couldn't be there that day. I guess that is just a cultural difference, as you say, between British notions of individualism and American notions.
A threat to it? No, I don't think I've even come close to saying that. It is a genuinely curious contrast though between aspects of the country.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:15:16 PMHow much did it cost? How much does sending firefighters to each school cost? What is the reletive effectiveness of the two approaches?
I am sure you have a study to hand to answer these questions?
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:15:16 PM
Perhaps. Remember that this is "overblown" precisely because it does get attention, and does let the school-aged kids in NYC who couldn't be there know that they can do something about fire safety.
Yes, it's reported in the news. How much news do kids of that age watch? The rest of the week's events, the ones in the schools, may be aimed at the kids exclusively. This extravaganza is as much aimed at the adults in the city. "See, we politicians are doing all this to safeguard the children. Vote for us again."
Perhaps you will say I am too cynical here, although I doubt it.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:15:16 PM
I understand. The strange can be scary, especially when you are from societies that shun the different. i am pretty sure that it has no bearing on authoritarian regimes, though. Except maybe the mob getting some "no show" jobs to award to members.
I wish you'd stop putting emotions in my mouth. Scary? More a feeling of dismay that such overblown pomp is felt neccessary. It is a lesser kin to the emotion I felt when observing the collective insanity that overtook my country when a certain manipulative bitch died in a carcrash.
And as for the "societies that shun the different" crack, I am fairly sure you know I am not a follower of Enoch Powell (slightly misrepresented as he was.) Given the amount of immigration to Britain over the last few decades, how could we be in this day and age? In fact, if we had a historical penchant for shunning the different, we would have locked ourselves up like China did and North America would probably be part of the Francophone world.
Quote from: grumbler on March 18, 2010, 10:15:16 PM
Oh, I am quite convinced of that. Lots of stuff happens in NYC that would not happen elsewhere in the US, let alone London. I could see a big fire safety rally in other big US cities, though. After all, as we have pointed out before, in the US firefighters and police are not considered "them," they are considered part of "us" and so people are willing to listen to them about fire safety and whatnot, rather than shrugging and wondering what their ulterior motive is for talking about it.
And, once again, you appear to put words in my mouth that I have not said, nor do I recall anyone else in the thread saying that.
"Just there" does not equate to "them" rather than "us". It is more that they are so much a part of us that we feel no need to create such extravaganzas to celebrate them.
I did, as I am sure you are aware, express a purely personal negative reaction to the
immediate presence of the police, for which I have no rational basis in fact. My own posts lumped them in with firemen as "just there" for the general case.
And where all of a sudden is this "ulterior motive" business coming from? The first time I have brought up the possibility is actually in this post.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2010, 06:36:23 AM
America gets bashed constantly by foreigners. So whereas the first critical foreigner to visit the Faroe Islands in 50 years might have the value of novelty, the millionth foreign film slamming the superficiality of American culture or the millionth speech by a leftist politican blaming all the world's woes on American policy are closer to straws on the camel's back.
Quite frankly, I am not so sure of that. There is a lot of difference between bashing and bashing: comments from a Frenchmen are bound to be coming from a different perspective than global demonizing by Iran officials - just like the typical trucker from Nebraska is clearly not used to meeting with the American-bashing lefitst demonstrator in Madrid.
While this has been a favorite theme of Languish over the years, what I saw and heard in the US (and in a variety of milieus, not just the leftist-ivory-tower-America-hating-liberal-elite) was much more hovering between the desire for praise and the incomprehension at pointed criticism (rather than wholesale, ignorant generalities). It is frequently safely filed under "they hate us for our freedoms" or tamer variation.
What is the difference between bashing and bashing?
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 06:53:04 AM
Quite frankly, I am not so sure of that. There is a lot of difference between bashing and bashing: comments from a Frenchmen are bound to be coming from a different perspective than global demonizing by Iran officials - just like the typical trucker from Nebraska is clearly not used to meeting with the American-bashing lefitst demonstrator in Madrid.
While this has been a favorite theme of Languish over the years, what I saw and heard in the US (and in a variety of milieus, not just the leftist-ivory-tower-America-hating-liberal-elite) was much more hovering between the desire for praise and the incomprehension at pointed criticism (rather than wholesale, ignorant generalities). It is frequently safely filed under "they hate us for our freedoms" or tamer variation.
Without knowing any of the particulars of your experiences it's difficult to comment.
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 05:49:37 AM
Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.
Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.
:lol:
If there is one thing that I am learning on Languish, it is that even some of the most educated and intelligent posters will support even the silliest generalization made based on the most unlikely or singular anecdote - if the generalization is made about America and the poster is not American. The support doesn't
always come off as self-pitying, but that's where you should place any bets you wanna make. When the support for silly sweeping generalizations is made in the form of a silly sweeping generalization, that is a bonus (which you shouldn't count on, as most posters have too much self-esteem to indulge in such laughable antics).
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 06:52:07 AM
A threat to it? No, I don't think I've even come close to saying that. It is a genuinely curious contrast though between aspects of the country.
I agree that it is curious, and note that it is a curious difference between NYC and where I live. The applicability to the US as a whole is what I doubt.
QuoteI am sure you have a study to hand to answer these questions?
You were drawing conclusions based on those answers. Surely you started with data and drew conclusions, rather than the reverse?
QuoteYes, it's reported in the news. How much news do kids of that age watch? The rest of the week's events, the ones in the schools, may be aimed at the kids exclusively.
I am sure that this event was shown in the schools as part of "fire safety week." That is the point of doing it, I would think.
QuoteThis extravaganza is as much aimed at the adults in the city. "See, we politicians are doing all this to safeguard the children. Vote for us again."
Okay. I will yield to your superior knowledge of NYC.
QuotePerhaps you will say I am too cynical here, although I doubt it.
I dunno. I don't knwo the city as well as you. Has this event worked out for the politicians this way in the past?
QuoteI wish you'd stop putting emotions in my mouth. Scary?
Okaqy, lets be rid of all that talk about how "terifying" things would be if blah, blah. There. The emotion is out of your mouth.
QuoteMore a feeling of dismay that such overblown pomp is felt neccessary.
Felt
necessary? You complain about others putting words in
your mouth?
QuoteIt is a lesser kin to the emotion I felt when observing the collective insanity that overtook my country when a certain manipulative bitch died in a carcrash.
I found that British reaction weird, but I didn't draw any conclusions about the British from that bit of media frenzy. I guess I am not "old school" enough.
Quote"Just there" does not equate to "them" rather than "us". It is more that they are so much a part of us that we feel no need to create such extravaganzas to celebrate them.
We don't either. This "extravaganza" was about "fire safety week." If you want extravaganzas to celebrate people in uniform, look up "Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo" and the former "Royal Tournament." You don't see quite this sort of thing in the US, and I think it is far closer to what you are talking about than Larch's anecdotes about the NYFD's fire safety week show, or his visit to a restaurant in Philly.
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 06:53:04 AM
While this has been a favorite theme of Languish over the years, what I saw and heard in the US (and in a variety of milieus, not just the leftist-ivory-tower-America-hating-liberal-elite) was much more hovering between the desire for praise and the incomprehension at pointed criticism (rather than wholesale, ignorant generalities). It is frequently safely filed under "they hate us for our freedoms" or tamer variation.
Surely this didn't shock you, and I genuinely hope that you do not think that this is anything uniquely American.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2010, 05:47:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2010, 04:42:41 AM
In Poland people think many of them are arsonists or at least pyromaniacs. :P
Don't worry, most volunteer firefighters here are as well.
I think we can all agree that boys who like to play with fire grow up to be men who like to play with fire. ( I guess the same thing happens with girls, I don't know) I have 3 brothers and 2 brothers-in-law who are or have been volunteer firefighters.
I grew up with a guy who I *know* was a pyro (I actually saw him start multiple fires) and he's now a volunteer firefighter. :contract:
Wow. Couple of notes here:
1) Kids dig firefighters.
2) NYC authorities routinely exploit this fact to teach kids fire saftety which otherwise would be just be boring adults telling them boring things they would ignore.
3) Fire safety is important in NYC b/s it is a big dense city and some of the big antiquated public schools are basically fire traps.
4) Minor point for grumbler - it is FDNY not NYFD. No idea why.
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 05:49:37 AM
America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.
Have you ever gotten into a cab? :D
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 19, 2010, 05:49:37 AM
Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.
Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.
This sure feels like a quotation from somewhere. de Toqueville?
Quote from: Barrister on March 19, 2010, 11:04:01 AM
This sure feels like a quotation from somewhere. de Toqueville?
Google says so.
congratulations! :D
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
You were drawing conclusions based on those answers. Surely you started with data and drew conclusions, rather than the reverse?
The world doesn't seem to work that way.. :(.
On the other hand, my experience is in purchasing, although unfortunately not in a field related to fire service. So, while I as an outsider, based on my own experience of labour and machinery costs, the cost of hiring areas etc. have a first reaction that New York is doing it the expensive way, that may, of course, not be true. But since you are the one who broke a generalisation into specifics, I repeat - do you know of a study we can refer to?
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AMOkay. I will yield to your superior knowledge of NYC.
Actually I bow to all the American posters here who cannot wait to post links to stories about their own particular asshat politicians, and the local variety over here who get up to equal shenanigans, for my knowledge. It has nothing to do with NYC in particular at all.
And seriously - do you really think that putting on a well reported event like this is purely for the children? Somebody thinks he's getting some good publicity or advantage over it.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
Okaqy, lets be rid of all that talk about how "terifying" things would be if blah, blah. There. The emotion is out of your mouth.
And again, you demonstrate your selective memory. You are determined to claim I thought the event was "scary" or "terrifying" when those terms were used in reference to a thought paradigm regarding the existence of an authoritarian America - a thought paradigm that I had deliberately stripped out of any relation to the event in my first post. The fact that you are being deliberately obtuse about this is not particularly edifying.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
Felt necessary? You complain about others putting words in your mouth?
:huh:
So it's put on because somebody felt it was "unnecessary" then? Somebody decided it was neccessary to put on this show, so I completely fail to see what point you think you are making here.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
I found that British reaction weird, but I didn't draw any conclusions about the British from that bit of media frenzy. I guess I am not "old school" enough.
Small point. Very small point. Other than in the thought paradigm about an authoritarian America, which does not at the moment exist, where have I drawn a conclusion about America in general? Let alone about Americans.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AMWe don't either. This "extravaganza" was about "fire safety week." If you want extravaganzas to celebrate people in uniform, look up "Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo" and the former "Royal Tournament." You don't see quite this sort of thing in the US, and I think it is far closer to what you are talking about than Larch's anecdotes about the NYFD's fire safety week show, or his visit to a restaurant in Philly.
Ah. So we are abandoning the fire service or police service (civilian or at most para-military bodies) to discuss the armed forces instead, just so you can try to score a non-existent point. Well, then, who has a National Cemetery for military personnel (even if its purpose has now been expanded slightly) - Britain or the USA? And a quick search of the internet proves that American soldiers take part in parades across the country, so I really don't see your issue here. No, they're not quite the same as a Tattoo, but they're equally visible.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 11:59:34 AM
And seriously - do you really think that putting on a well reported event like this is purely for the children? Somebody thinks he's getting some good publicity or advantage over it.
It was so well reported it happened a couple of good football punts away from me without me knowing about it. Heard about it from Larch.
Events like this happen all the time - the locals barely lift their heads as they walk by.
The FDNY doesn't need to do events like this to secure their funding. 9/11 pretty much guaranteed that for a generation.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 19, 2010, 12:55:23 PM
The FDNY doesn't need to do events like this to secure their funding. 9/11 pretty much guaranteed that for a generation.
So you're saying 9/11 was engineered by FDNY and NYPD accountants to secure a bump in funding for decades to come?
I think I know the problem here. I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.
Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America. Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that. Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety. Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc. Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever. Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision. Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin. I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff. It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
I think I know the problem here. I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.
Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America. Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that. Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety. Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc. Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever. Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision. Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin. I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff. It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.
yep.
Fireman, cop, EMT, Air force dude from the nearby base, nurse, some chick to talk about teeth, road safety guy with orange vest.
I loved the fire truck. I so wanted to soak Michelle Osborne with the fire hose. I hated her so much.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 06:52:07 AM
It is a lesser kin to the emotion I felt when observing the collective insanity that overtook my country when a certain manipulative bitch died in a carcrash.
I found that British reaction weird, but I didn't draw any conclusions about the British from that bit of media frenzy. I guess I am not "old school" enough.
To be fair, the insanity was hardly limited to 1 country, though its intensity differed in different countries.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 19, 2010, 01:21:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
I think I know the problem here. I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.
Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America. Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that. Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety. Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc. Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever. Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision. Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin. I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff. It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.
yep.
Fireman, cop, EMT, Air force dude from the nearby base, nurse, some chick to talk about teeth, road safety guy with orange vest.
I loved the fire truck. I so wanted to soak Michelle Osborne with the fire hose. I hated her so much.
We would get the Department of Conservation guy and he had live snakes and stuff. Clearly indoctrinated American youth for the eventual coup by park rangers.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 11:59:34 AM
The world doesn't seem to work that way.. :(.
On the other hand, my experience is in purchasing, although unfortunately not in a field related to fire service. So, while I as an outsider, based on my own experience of labour and machinery costs, the cost of hiring areas etc. have a first reaction that New York is doing it the expensive way, that may, of course, not be true. But since you are the one who broke a generalisation into specifics, I repeat - do you know of a study we can refer to?
My experience in education, program cost analysis, and organization would tell me that it is cheaper to conduct the event at a central location, but in the absence of actual data I refrain from drawing conclusions. Obviously, lack of data does not similarly restrain you, so I will leave it to the readers, if any, to decide how persuasive your unsupported assertion is (and, indeed, what significance it has).
QuoteActually I bow to all the American posters here who cannot wait to post links to stories about their own particular asshat politicians, and the local variety over here who get up to equal shenanigans, for my knowledge. It has nothing to do with NYC in particular at all.
Ah. So merely another unsupported assertion. Okay.
QuoteAnd seriously - do you really think that putting on a well reported event like this is purely for the children? Somebody thinks he's getting some good publicity or advantage over it.
How said anything about "purely for the children?" Obviously somebody thinks there is an advantage to doing this. Duh!
QuoteAnd again, you demonstrate your selective memory. You are determined to claim I thought the event was "scary" or "terrifying" when those terms were used in reference to a thought paradigm regarding the existence of an authoritarian America - a thought paradigm that I had deliberately stripped out of any relation to the event in my first post. The fact that you are being deliberately obtuse about this is not particularly edifying.
Again, I see no linkage between kids participating in a "Fire safety Week" event and authoritarian America. If the two are unrelated, then why mention them in the same post? If we aren't even addressing the Fire Safety Week event any more, then what, exactly, is your point?
QuoteSo it's put on because somebody felt it was "unnecessary" then? Somebody decided it was neccessary to put on this show, so I completely fail to see what point you think you are making here.
Maybe "necessary" means something different on that side of the pond. Here, things are "necessary" if they are " 1 a : of an inevitable nature : inescapable b (1) : logically unavoidable (2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction c : determined or produced by the previous condition of things d : compulsory
2 : absolutely needed : required" (Miriam Webster) Someone could have decided that this was a good use of resources, even without it being "necessary." In American English, that is. The British Cambridge Learner's Dictionary online seems to ssay the same thing ("needed in order to achieve a particular result"), but that is just a formal meaning, and perhaps there is an informal one that you are using. In any case, the use of the term "necessary" seems unnecessary in this context.
QuoteAh. So we are abandoning the fire service or police service (civilian or at most para-military bodies) to discuss the armed forces instead, just so you can try to score a non-existent point. Well, then, who has a National Cemetery for military personnel (even if its purpose has now been expanded slightly) - Britain or the USA?
So you want to draw a distinction between public servants in the military and the police or fire departments just so you can try to score a non-existent point. Okay. What non-existent point is mention of cemeteries supposed to be making? Britain has cemeteries, as does the US. The US call its Arlington National Cemetery and buries many people there, the UK calls theirs Westminster Abbey and buries fewer people there. I don't get your point.
QuoteAnd a quick search of the internet proves that American soldiers take part in parades across the country, so I really don't see your issue here. No, they're not quite the same as a Tattoo, but they're equally visible.
US soldiers take place in no events like Trooping the Colour, the Tatoo, or the former Royal Tournament. You may see US soldiers or Marines (especially their bands) in a parade, but the parade or event is not about the military or some authority figure. It would be held pretty much exactly the same without any US soldiers at all (unless it is being held in a military base, perhaps, but I know of no regular parades on any US military bases).
The bottom line, I guess, is that the "cultural differences" you are referring to do, indeed, exist, but it seems to me that Brits casting stones because the FDNY held a fire safety week "extravaganza" that seems to them to be (taken in complete isolation) "like the practises(sic) of regimes such as North Korea" should look at the glass (Tatoos, Trooping the Colour) of which their own home is constructed.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2010, 01:49:17 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 19, 2010, 01:21:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
I think I know the problem here. I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.
Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America. Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that. Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety. Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc. Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever. Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision. Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin. I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff. It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.
yep.
Fireman, cop, EMT, Air force dude from the nearby base, nurse, some chick to talk about teeth, road safety guy with orange vest.
I loved the fire truck. I so wanted to soak Michelle Osborne with the fire hose. I hated her so much.
We would get the Department of Conservation guy and he had live snakes and stuff. Clearly indoctrinated American youth for the eventual coup by park rangers.
I forgot about the park dudes. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
I think I know the problem here. I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.
Unfortunately for your statement, I have never read Fahrenheit 451. Might have studied it at school, but we ended up doing "Far from the Madding Crowd" instead. :glare:
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America. Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that. Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety. Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc. Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever. Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision. Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin. I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff. It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.
Fire departments over here stage demonstrations as well, either on their own premises or as a small part of a larger show. They visit schools to teach fire safety. They tend to co-organise fireworks displays to help get safety messages out in the advertising for these events. What they do not do is have a huge event
solely dedicated to them in a public square. And in fact, from what Grumbler is saying, this sort of event isn't even that common in the USA. In fact, you own recollections sound a lot more like the things I have just described than this event in New York.
I imagine it has to do with the logistics of doing stuff in New York City.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 02:00:25 PM
. What they do not do is have a huge event solely dedicated to them in a public square.
Rock Center is not really a public square. It's a private building complex.
FDNY actually rents out space in the complex where it has a fire safety "learning center".
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
My experience in education, program cost analysis, and organization would tell me that it is cheaper to conduct the event at a central location, but in the absence of actual data I refrain from drawing conclusions. Obviously, lack of data does not similarly restrain you, so I will leave it to the readers, if any, to decide how persuasive your unsupported assertion is (and, indeed, what significance it has).
So in your lexicon "opinion" equals "conclusion". Talk about two sides divided by a common language. And you are no more persuasive with your unsupported counters than I am with my own opinion.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PMAh. So merely another unsupported assertion. Okay.
You really are in a tiresome mood today, aren't you? OK then, from now on I'll add you to the list of people who somehow still think that politicians are as pure as the driven snow. Or is New York unique and its' politicians have nothing to do with "Fire Safety Week" and the events involved?
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PMHow said anything about "purely for the children?" Obviously somebody thinks there is an advantage to doing this. Duh!
Ah, I see. So you disagree with me with one sentence and then agree with me the next, while pretending that the two have no relevance to each other at all. Bravo!!!
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PMAgain, I see no linkage between kids participating in a "Fire safety Week" event and authoritarian America. If the two are unrelated, then why mention them in the same post? If we aren't even addressing the Fire Safety Week event any more, then what, exactly, is your point?
Because I never made a linkage? Again I see you are incapable of understanding simple English. For the last time I explicitly said about certain actions "taken in complete isolation", not the event as a whole, before moving on to musing about an authoritarian America.
But if you are incapable of understanding English, then there really is no point in discussing this further.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
Maybe "necessary" means something different on that side of the pond. Here, things are "necessary" if they are " 1 a : of an inevitable nature : inescapable b (1) : logically unavoidable (2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction c : determined or produced by the previous condition of things d : compulsory
2 : absolutely needed : required" (Miriam Webster) Someone could have decided that this was a good use of resources, even without it being "necessary." In American English, that is. The British Cambridge Learner's Dictionary online seems to ssay the same thing ("needed in order to achieve a particular result"), but that is just a formal meaning, and perhaps there is an informal one that you are using. In any case, the use of the term "necessary" seems unnecessary in this context.
If they decided it was a good use of resources, then they had decided that it was a necessary use of resources. Your determination to split hairs merely exposes your own limitations with your first language. After all, this if "Fire Safety Week" - I assume you are not now going to argue that this particular event was not intended "to achieve a particular result"?
You really are getting desperate when you resort to raising strawman issues about legitimate word choices, Grumbler.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
So you want to draw a distinction between public servants in the military and the police or fire departments just so you can try to score a non-existent point. Okay. What non-existent point is mention of cemeteries supposed to be making? Britain has cemeteries, as does the US. The US call its Arlington National Cemetery and buries many people there, the UK calls theirs Westminster Abbey and buries fewer people there. I don't get your point.
If you equate Westminster Abbey with Arlington, then you are being surprisingly obtuse. I'd consider the history of their establishment before considering the two as being beasts of the same ilk.
Arlington's relevant in the fact that if, as you say, you do not have tatoos, you do have a national cemetery that was originally, and is still mainly, dedicated to your military dead. This is something we do not have. They're two aspects of the same issue, which is reverence or respect for the military.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
US soldiers take place in no events like Trooping the Colour, the Tatoo, or the former Royal Tournament. You may see US soldiers or Marines (especially their bands) in a parade, but the parade or event is not about the military or some authority figure. It would be held pretty much exactly the same without any US soldiers at all (unless it is being held in a military base, perhaps, but I know of no regular parades on any US military bases).
You don't have Tatoos, we have nothing equivalent to Arlington. They both relate to respect for the military, but as different expressions. The root is the same.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
The bottom line, I guess, is that the "cultural differences" you are referring to do, indeed, exist, but it seems to me that Brits casting stones because the FDNY held a fire safety week "extravaganza" that seems to them to be (taken in complete isolation) "like the practises(sic) of regimes such as North Korea" should look at the glass (Tatoos, Trooping the Colour) of which their own home is constructed.
And once again you conflate the event with the actions that I specifically extracted from the event. You seem to be incapable of doing anything else in your odd desire to find fault with me.
Oh well. Five years ago I respected you as a well read and interesting poster, one whose positions I tended to agree with on most issues.
Now I see that you are simply another one schtick wonder. Which is a real shame. :(
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 19, 2010, 02:24:33 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 02:00:25 PM
. What they do not do is have a huge event solely dedicated to them in a public square.
Rock Center is not really a public square. It's a private building complex.
FDNY actually rents out space in the complex where it has a fire safety "learning center".
I'm amused that after four or more pages, you are the first person to point out that technically what the Larch saw was not in a public space! :lol:
Thanks for the clarification. :)
Far more elaborate and odd event than this -- the annual Steuben Day parade:
http://www.germanparadenyc.org/index.html
takes up all of 5th avenue next to the park for the better part of a day.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 02:29:34 PM
I'm amused that after four or more pages, you are the first person to point out that technically what the Larch saw was not in a public space! :lol:
Thanks for the clarification. :)
It didn't seem like an important detail but you seemed to attach special importance to it.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 19, 2010, 02:31:56 PM
Far more elaborate and odd event than this -- the annual Steuben Day parade:
http://www.germanparadenyc.org/index.html
takes up all of 5th avenue next to the park for the better part of a day.
The Panzer floats were in somewhat poor taste, but not compared to the march of the death camp inmates towards the back of the parade.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 19, 2010, 02:27:46 PM
So in your lexicon "opinion" equals "conclusion". Talk about two sides divided by a common language. And you are no more persuasive with your unsupported counters than I am with my own opinion.
Conclusions are opinions, yes. In American English, that is. I am not offering any "counters" as is made plan by my statement that I have no conclusion in the absence of data. Cost is something you brought up, and you have yet to make it relevant to the discussion.
QuoteYou really are in a tiresome mood today, aren't you? OK then, from now on I'll add you to the list of people who somehow still think that politicians are as pure as the driven snow. Or is New York unique and its' politicians have nothing to do with "Fire Safety Week" and the events involved?
Ah, the attempt to turn this into something about "me" and the strawman. How tiresome, yet inevitable.
QuoteAh, I see. So you disagree with me with one sentence and then agree with me the next, while pretending that the two have no relevance to each other at all. Bravo!!!
Nope. I state my own opinions, and reject your attempt at a false dilemma. This doesn't need to be either (a) "all about the children" or (b) "necessary" to some politician. I think it could have been done because fire officials saw it as a cost-effective way to get their message out.
QuoteBecause I never made a linkage? Again I see you are incapable of understanding simple English. For the last time I explicitly said about certain actions "taken in complete isolation", not the event as a whole, before moving on to musing about an authoritarian America.
I understand simple English well enough. I just don't understand why you are going on about some FDNY event, particularly when in your country there are events for more "North Korean looking.".
QuoteBut if you are incapable of understanding English, then there really is no point in discussing this further.
Again the attempt to make this about me! :lol:
QuoteIf they decided it was a good use of resources, then they had decided that it was a necessary use of resources.
This does not follow at all. Not in any meaning of the word necessary of which I am aware.
QuoteYour determination to split hairs merely exposes your own limitations with your first language. After all, this if "Fire Safety Week" - I assume you are not now going to argue that this particular event was not intended "to achieve a particular result"?
??? This makes no sense. You have cropped the dictionary meaning to eliminate a key word. Was that accidental, or is this a mere weasel?
QuoteYou really are getting desperate when you resort to raising strawman issues about legitimate word choices, Grumbler.
You need to learn the meaning of the term strawman, lest you continue to misuse it. There is a fine example of one above: "I'll add you to the list of people who somehow still think that politicians are as pure as the driven snow." See how that places in my mouth an argument that i never made? That's the very definition of a strawman.
QuoteIf you equate Westminster Abbey with Arlington, then you are being surprisingly obtuse. I'd consider the history of their establishment before considering the two as being beasts of the same ilk.
"Obtuse" is obviously your word of the say, but I will throw it back in your face: you are being obtuse to ignore the similarities between the two, and have yet to make your references to cemeteries (no matter their history) relevant to the discussion.
QuoteArlington's relevant in the fact that if, as you say, you do not have tatoos, you do have a national cemetery that was originally, and is still mainly, dedicated to your military dead. This is something we do not have. They're two aspects of the same issue, which is reverence or respect for the military.
So there is no Brookwood Military Cemetery in Brookwood, Surrey, England? No Aldershot Military Cemetery, in Aldershot Military Town, Hampshire? I don't see what point you are making here that wouldn't be countered by the mere existence of The Cenotaph in London, frankly, but go ahead and try to make it.
QuoteYou don't have Tatoos, we have nothing equivalent to Arlington. They both relate to respect for the military, but as different expressions. The root is the same.
Actually, you do have the equivelent of Arlington, but the US still has no equivelent of the tatoos.
QuoteAnd once again you conflate the event with the actions that I specifically extracted from the event. You seem to be incapable of doing anything else in your odd desire to find fault with me.
I still have no idea what your point is. You "siimple English" is so simply itt doesn't seem to be conveying any coherent message.
QuoteOh well. Five years ago I respected you as a well read and interesting poster, one whose positions I tended to agree with on most issues.
Now I see that you are simply another one schtick wonder. Which is a real shame. :(
Always finish with a personal attack when you have no logical counter-arguments left to make, eh? :lol:
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 04:27:24 PM
Always finish with a personal attack when you have no logical counter-arguments left to make, eh? :lol:
I take it that, since you have stopped countering my logical arguments with your logical arguments, we are done.
Thank God! :pope:
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
Thank God! :pope:
Yet another atheist reverts to his childhood religion when faced with the trenches of languish! :lol:
What *I* find a little weird is the swearing-in of new military recruits at halftime of sporting events.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2010, 04:51:26 PM
What *I* find a little weird is the swearing-in of new military recruits at halftime of sporting events.
That's just a myth.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
Thank God! :pope:
Yet another atheist reverts to his childhood religion when faced with the trenches of languish! :lol:
Atheism *is* my childhood religion. And debates like that only reinforce my belief that there is no God.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2010, 05:05:44 PM
...debates like that only reinforce my belief that there is no God.
The mortgage debate reinforced my belief that God didn't belong to a debate club in college!
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2010, 04:51:26 PM
What *I* find a little weird is the swearing-in of new military recruits at halftime of sporting events.
Never saw that one. Where did you see it? Agree that that is over the top, by pretty much any standard.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 06:03:16 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2010, 05:05:44 PM
...debates like that only reinforce my belief that there is no God.
The mortgage debate reinforced my belief that God didn't belong to a debate club in college!
No shit. I didn't believe in participating in clubs.
We have some posters that I wouldn't mind seeing get clubbed.
Quote from: dps on March 19, 2010, 07:19:30 PM
We have some posters that I wouldn't mind seeing get clubbed.
I'm Canadian - clubbing is for baby seals. :Canuck:
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 07:43:29 AM
:bleeding:
It was like that when I lived in Boston, too.
Now I live in a place where nothing bad ever happens. :cool:
Seriously... I've been on 'jury duty' since January 21st but there hasn't yet been a single trial for which a jury was needed.
MOTHERFUCKER, why did I have to go and post this? Now there's a goddamn trial on Monday I have to go to. :ultra:
I hope this hick criminal knows he has BROUGHT DOWN THE WRATH OF CAL. :mad:
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 06:04:16 PM
Never saw that one. Where did you see it? Agree that that is over the top, by pretty much any standard.
They did it at the Armed Forces Bowl, but I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Quote from: Barrister on March 19, 2010, 08:48:27 PM
Quote from: dps on March 19, 2010, 07:19:30 PM
We have some posters that I wouldn't mind seeing get clubbed.
I'm Canadian - clubbing is for baby seals. :Canuck:
:lol:
Quote from: Caliga on March 19, 2010, 08:54:41 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 07:43:29 AM
:bleeding:
It was like that when I lived in Boston, too.
Now I live in a place where nothing bad ever happens. :cool:
Seriously... I've been on 'jury duty' since January 21st but there hasn't yet been a single trial for which a jury was needed.
MOTHERFUCKER, why did I have to go and post this? Now there's a goddamn trial on Monday I have to go to. :ultra:
I hope this hick criminal knows he has BROUGHT DOWN THE WRATH OF CAL. :mad:
It's time for some Kentucky justice, Cal.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.authorsden.com%2Fworkscover%2F18723.jpg&hash=6cfe08eab62f7023265c1b05a3ceff51f7abe49a)
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 19, 2010, 09:28:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 19, 2010, 08:48:27 PM
Quote from: dps on March 19, 2010, 07:19:30 PM
We have some posters that I wouldn't mind seeing get clubbed.
I'm Canadian - clubbing is for baby seals. :Canuck:
:lol:
http://www.warsawtraveltours.com/warsaw-gay-night.html (http://www.warsawtraveltours.com/warsaw-gay-night.html)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warsawtraveltours.com%2Fzdjecia%2Fclub9_470x350.jpg&hash=d9c9c9ad586b86ee9e61fa1da21a5022407908ff)
Quote from: Caliga on March 19, 2010, 08:54:41 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 18, 2010, 07:43:29 AM
:bleeding:
It was like that when I lived in Boston, too.
Now I live in a place where nothing bad ever happens. :cool:
Seriously... I've been on 'jury duty' since January 21st but there hasn't yet been a single trial for which a jury was needed.
MOTHERFUCKER, why did I have to go and post this? Now there's a goddamn trial on Monday I have to go to. :ultra:
I hope this hick criminal knows he has BROUGHT DOWN THE WRATH OF CAL. :mad:
You know what to do. :cool:
Get a doctor's confirmation that he's too ill to sit jury?
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
Get a doctor's confirmation that he's too ill to sit jury?
That's Plan A
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2010, 04:51:26 PM
What *I* find a little weird is the swearing-in of new military recruits at halftime of sporting events.
What the fuck. Does it really happen? :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2010, 03:23:50 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2010, 04:51:26 PM
What *I* find a little weird is the swearing-in of new military recruits at halftime of sporting events.
What the fuck. Does it really happen? :huh:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wpafb.af.mil%2Fshared%2Fmedia%2Fphotodb%2Fweb%2F091203-F-5381S-007.jpg&hash=d2d7ad5a4cd817ac8aa36dbbdd855502a5ed3443)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.403wg.afrc.af.mil%2Fshared%2Fmedia%2Fphotodb%2Fweb%2F081004-F-1904D-0015.JPG&hash=601f6793c5f84ef29f8c423dfabea3f6939db6c5)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randolph.af.mil%2Fshared%2Fmedia%2Fphotodb%2Fweb%2F051108-F-0000S-024.jpg&hash=9489797174c958428399db0acb0ba66e2359d8e2)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usarec.army.mil%2Fimages%2F3rdbde%2F5ibn%2Fpistonswearin.jpg&hash=b410f68a8175770f31d07364380e659fd31acc6e)
The black guy in the second picture probably should have worn pants.
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
Get a doctor's confirmation that he's too ill to sit jury?
Wrongo. If I end up being empaneled, the person is going to be found guilty NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE MIGHT SUGGEST. :mad:
Quote from: Caliga on March 20, 2010, 05:03:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
Get a doctor's confirmation that he's too ill to sit jury?
Wrongo. If I end up being empaneled, the person is going to be found guilty NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE MIGHT SUGGEST. :mad:
Will you be: ONE ANGRY MAN?
OK I have taken what passes for a military oath in Sweden. I would have been SERIOUSLY WEIRDED OUT AND ANNOYED if they had cheapened it by having me do it AT A FUCKING SPORTS EVENT.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH AMERICA
Quote from: Caliga on March 20, 2010, 05:03:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
Get a doctor's confirmation that he's too ill to sit jury?
Wrongo. If I end up being empaneled, the person is going to be found guilty NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE MIGHT SUGGEST. :mad:
Great. Now languish will be subpoenaed.
WTF.
Grumbler, have you done something? I tried to access this thread and Windows DEP function crashed the tab, and nearly the whole of Internet Explorer. :)
Quote from: Caliga on March 20, 2010, 05:03:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
Get a doctor's confirmation that he's too ill to sit jury?
Wrongo. If I end up being empaneled, the person is going to be found guilty NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE MIGHT SUGGEST. :mad:
:hug:
I knew I liked Cal for a reason.
BTW, can you get in legal trouble for serving in bad faith as a juror?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 20, 2010, 04:34:29 AM
The black guy in the second picture probably should have worn pants.
Why not the white guy right next to him? Raciss
Quote from: sbr on March 20, 2010, 12:32:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 20, 2010, 04:34:29 AM
The black guy in the second picture probably should have worn pants.
Why not the white guy right next to him? Raciss
The black guy looks like he just showed up in his boxer shorts.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 04:27:24 PM
Conclusions are opinions, yes. In American English, that is. I am not offering any "counters" as is made plan by my statement that I have no conclusion in the absence of data. Cost is something you brought up, and you have yet to make it relevant to the discussion.
Opinions can be changed with facts. Conclusions are final. Is that too hard to understand?
Anyway, I can't be bothered with most of the mass cropping today just to counter your own mass with mass, so I'll eliminate most of the redundant crap.
Now then...
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 04:27:24 PM
"Obtuse" is obviously your word of the say, but I will throw it back in your face: you are being obtuse to ignore the similarities between the two, and have yet to make your references to cemeteries (no matter their history) relevant to the discussion.
Westminster Abbey and Arlington's only similarity is that important people are buried there. Comparing a location that has become important for burials due to accidents of history to one specifically established for that function is what I consider obtuse about your position.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 04:27:24 PM
So there is no Brookwood Military Cemetery in Brookwood, Surrey, England? No Aldershot Military Cemetery, in Aldershot Military Town, Hampshire? I don't see what point you are making here that wouldn't be countered by the mere existence of The Cenotaph in London, frankly, but go ahead and try to make it.
Brookwood's cemetary is related to the memorials around the world for WWI and WWII; I am fairly sure that the USA has its share of war memorials for those two particular conflicts too. Arlington is still in use and has a much broader remit, so again a direct comparison between the two is somewhat invidious. Which is, of course, why your mention of the cenotaph has no relevance either, as would be any mention I could make of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Aldershot's a garrison town, and has been for centuries. I'd be more surprised if there wasn't a military cemetery there. It is also not a :hmm: perhaps the best term is "designated national military cemetery" so again the two aren't really comparable. As far as I am aware Arlington's location is due to a battle rather than to it being near a long standing garrison, although I would be happy to be corrected on this point if this is not the case.
We do not have the equivalent of Arlington. The USA, as you have pointed out, does not have the equivalent of a Tatoo. You have used the existence of the Tatoo as evidence that Britain has events closer to North Korea's than the fire safety show in New York, despite the fact that I have never related the event
itself to North Korean practises.
On the other hand, if you are using the Tatoos as you have been doing as an example of reverence for the military that could be seen as excessive, then raising the issue of Arlington is entirely germane to the subject, and you are trying to avoid admitting this.
Quote from: grumbler on March 19, 2010, 04:27:24 PM
QuoteOh well. Five years ago I respected you as a well read and interesting poster, one whose positions I tended to agree with on most issues.
Now I see that you are simply another one schtick wonder. Which is a real shame. :(
Always finish with a personal attack when you have no logical counter-arguments left to make, eh? :lol:
All I can and will say here is that I can now read a thread on Languish and come to a point where I can tell exactly when you will post and ninety percent of the time what type of post it will be. That's why I used the term "one schtick wonder". All I can advise you to do is go back and reread a few of the threads you have added your wisdom too in the last few months.
After all, I've pretty much already said I constructed the original post deliberately to exclude the possibility of this type of spurious argumentative behaviour on your part, and all I can say is that I regret it failed to achieve its purpose. :(
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
We do not have the equivalent of Arlington. The USA, as you have pointed out, does not have the equivalent of a Tatoo. You have used the existence of the Tatoo as evidence that Britain has events closer to North Korea's than the fire safety show in New York, despite the fact that I have never related the event itself to North Korean practises.
We have many Arlingtons. They're in Flanders. Menin Gate serves a similar purpose in our national identity I think.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
We do not have the equivalent of Arlington. The USA, as you have pointed out, does not have the equivalent of a Tatoo. You have used the existence of the Tatoo as evidence that Britain has events closer to North Korea's than the fire safety show in New York, despite the fact that I have never related the event itself to North Korean practises.
We have many Arlingtons. They're in Flanders. Menin Gate serves a similar purpose in our national identity I think.
In the commemorative sense yes. As an ongoing official source of internment and national pride no. We tend to do things "after the fact", Arlington is doing something "before the fact" as it were. That's an essential point of the distinction between the two, in my mind.
And unfortunately, there's an awful lot of people in Britain these days who would not even recognise the term "Menin Gate". To them, it's dead and gone. :(
Arlington itself is alive, and is kept deliberately so by usage, in the minds of modern Americans. Or so it seems to me as a non-American.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 01:03:48 PM
In the commemorative sense yes. As an ongoing official source of internment and national pride no. We tend to do things "after the fact", Arlington is doing something "before the fact" as it were. That's an essential point of the distinction between the two, in my mind.
And unfortunately, there's an awful lot of people in Britain these days who would not even recognise the term "Menin Gate". To them, it's dead and gone. :(
I thought Arlington was established during or shortly after the American Civil War? Incidentally I think in terms of psychological importance to our nations the Civil War and WW1 are similarly defining conflicts.
I'm not sure about people forgetting, hundreds of thousands of school children go to Flanders every year and though they may forget the name 'Menin Gate' I've never met anyone who went and wasn't moved - they've not forgot the feeling, the pity.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2010, 01:12:39 PM
I thought Arlington was established during or shortly after the American Civil War?
I believe it was, but I also think the original remit was deliberately broader than that of the Commonwealth War Graves commission.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2010, 01:12:39 PMIncidentally I think in terms of psychological importance to our nations the Civil War and WW1 are similarly defining conflicts.
I can't argue with you there, not at all. Perhaps even more so than WWI was for us, in fact. Without doing a full analysis I can't be certain, but the impression I have from Languish is that Americans bring up the Civil War more often than Britons bring up WWI.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2010, 01:12:39 PM
I'm not sure about people forgetting, hundreds of thousands of school children go to Flanders every year and though they may forget the name 'Menin Gate' I've never met anyone who went and wasn't moved - they've not forgot the feeling, the pity.
And hundreds of thousands don't. I've never been there, but I can easily imagine myself breaking down and weeping if I came across my Great-grandfather's grave (he was killed on the Somme three months after my grandfather was born, and I am fairly certain he never saw his son. :( :cry:)
But I also study history for pleasure, which is not as common as it should be in Britain.
I've worked alongside a couple of otherwise bright and intelligent people who think history is meaningless and who would not know what the "Menin Gate" was, is or should mean. I've met even more, idiots and intelligent alike, who have a similar attitude. I think even our politicians are worrying about this forgetfulness now the last of the veterans are dead; am I right in remembering proposals recently for making Remembrance Day explicitly a day for remembering all soldiers killed, not just those during the two world wars?
Quote from: DGuller on March 20, 2010, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
Opinions can be changed with facts.
:lmfao:
Glad you're amused at this. And after I felt sympathy for you after you were ganged up on in the thread on the Toyota recall as well... :)
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 01:33:38 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 20, 2010, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
Opinions can be changed with facts.
:lmfao:
Glad you're amused at this. And after I felt sympathy for you after you were ganged up on in the thread on the Toyota recall as well... :)
:unsure: I hope you don't think I was laughing at you or your arguments.
Quote from: DGuller on March 20, 2010, 01:37:54 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 01:33:38 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 20, 2010, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
Opinions can be changed with facts.
:lmfao:
Glad you're amused at this. And after I felt sympathy for you after you were ganged up on in the thread on the Toyota recall as well... :)
:unsure: I hope you don't think I was laughing at you or your arguments.
:unsure: I may have misunderstood. Sorry.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 01:59:15 PM
:unsure: I may have misunderstood. Sorry.
No problem. I was just using your statement as a launching point to vent my frustration at the level of discourse, both in real life politics, and recently on Languish.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
Opinions can be changed with facts. Conclusions are final. Is that too hard to understand?
In American English, conclusions are not final, and are opinions. There are, as wordweb notes, "a position or opinion or judgment reached after consideration." Is that so hard to understand?
The fact that, in British English, it is no longer possible to consider changing a conclusion may help explain why so few Brits win scientific Nobel Prizes these days - you guys have defined away a critical part of the scientific method.
QuoteWestminster Abbey and Arlington's only similarity is that important people are buried there. Comparing a location that has become important for burials due to accidents of history to one specifically established for that function is what I consider obtuse about your position.
What is obtuse is that your "difference" does not even differentiate between the two things you consider so different! :lol:
If you have a point to make about Arlington cemetery, please feel free to make it. After dancing around the point for three posts, it certainly isn't too soon.
QuoteBrookwood's cemetary is related to the memorials around the world for WWI and WWII; I am fairly sure that the USA has its share of war memorials for those two particular conflicts too. Arlington is still in use and has a much broader remit, so again a direct comparison between the two is somewhat invidious. Which is, of course, why your mention of the cenotaph has no relevance either, as would be any mention I could make of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Still don't understand why we are even talking about cemeteries. Care to make a point?
QuoteAldershot's a garrison town, and has been for centuries. I'd be more surprised if there wasn't a military cemetery there. It is also not a :hmm: perhaps the best term is "designated national military cemetery" so again the two aren't really comparable. As far as I am aware Arlington's location is due to a battle rather than to it being near a long standing garrison, although I would be happy to be corrected on this point if this is not the case.
Still don't understand why we are even talking about cemeteries. Care to make a point?
QuoteWe do not have the equivalent of Arlington. The USA, as you have pointed out, does not have the equivalent of a Tatoo. You have used the existence of the Tatoo as evidence that Britain has events closer to North Korea's than the fire safety show in New York, despite the fact that I have never related the event itself to North Korean practises.
Britain does not have the exact equivalent of Arlington, but then one would not expect it to - it is another country, located on another continent. It has cemeteries very similar to Arlington, though. Aldershot is identical in function, insofar as I can tell, save for the state funeral types things you very occasionally see at Arlington, which are carried out at Westminster Abbey instead.
But I still don't understand why we are even talking about cemeteries. Care to make a point about them?
The US has nothing like Trooping the Colours or the Military Tatoo, true.
QuoteOn the other hand, if you are using the Tatoos as you have been doing as an example of reverence for the military that could be seen as excessive, then raising the issue of Arlington is entirely germane to the subject, and you are trying to avoid admitting this.
You keep saying that the existence of Arlington cemetery is "germane" but this is mere argument by assertion. You have to make it germane to an actual point in contention.
QuoteAll I can and will say here is that I can now read a thread on Languish and come to a point where I can tell exactly when you will post and ninety percent of the time what type of post it will be. That's why I used the term "one schtick wonder". All I can advise you to do is go back and reread a few of the threads you have added your wisdom too in the last few months.
I have done so. Now, you go back and reread the posts you have made, and count the number of times you have engaged in personal attacks, strawmanning, and ad hominim arguments. You see a complete absence of those from me. Why? Because for me, this is all intellectual, it isn't personal. I have no ego invested in this board.
QuoteAfter all, I've pretty much already said I constructed the original post deliberately to exclude the possibility of this type of spurious argumentative behaviour on your part, and all I can say is that I regret it failed to achieve its purpose. :(
Well, work on your language skills, and maybe you can do better next time.
For5 example, if you are eventually going to have to concede that "as far as I am aware Arlington's location is due to a battle" - a statement completely at odds with reality, and "although I would be happy to be corrected on this point if this is not the case," then one should never, ever tell another poster (who is aware of why both Arlington exists and Westminster Abbey exists) that "If you equate Westminster Abbey with Arlington, then you are being surprisingly obtuse. I'd consider the history of their establishment before considering the two as being beasts of the same ilk." Given that you later demonstrate you are ignorant of the history of the establishment of Arlington Cemetery, the earlier crack just sounds absurd (particularly when the whole "equate" thing is a bit of a strawman anyway).
Not that you ever made the references to Arlington Cemetery relevant to the discussion anyway.
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 06:27:09 PM
Still don't understand why we are even talking about cemeteries. Care to make a point?
Since I've made it three times, and you are the one who persist in bringing up cemeteries, no.
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 06:27:09 PM
I have done so. Now, you go back and reread the posts you have made, and count the number of times you have engaged in personal attacks, strawmanning, and ad hominim arguments. You see a complete absence of those from me. Why? Because for me, this is all intellectual, it isn't personal. I have no ego invested in this board.
Well, apart from the appropriate :lol: response at the comment that you do not engage in strawmanning and ad hominem arguments, or that you have no ego invested in the board when you demonstrably do, the simple fact is that you, personally, irritate me, and have done so since your inappropriate comments on the death of Robert Jordan. Hence my lack of patience with your standard tactics these days.
Even though, as I have said before, there's a large area of broad agreement between us.
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 06:27:09 PM
For5 example, if you are eventually going to have to concede that "as far as I am aware Arlington's location is due to a battle" - a statement completely at odds with reality, and "although I would be happy to be corrected on this point if this is not the case," then one should never, ever tell another poster (who is aware of why both Arlington exists and Westminster Abbey exists) that "If you equate Westminster Abbey with Arlington, then you are being surprisingly obtuse. I'd consider the history of their establishment before considering the two as being beasts of the same ilk." Given that you later demonstrate you are ignorant of the history of the establishment of Arlington Cemetery, the earlier crack just sounds absurd (particularly when the whole "equate" thing is a bit of a strawman anyway).
Yes, that is a fair point. My mind was dwelling on a shoddy reference from a book with a declamatory speech from someone standing in the cemetery running something like "over that hill blah, blah, blah Americans died" as if a battlefield was part of the grounds. The land was, of course, part of Robert E. Lee's estate, confiscated for use as a military cemetery. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't change the fact that comparing the two locations is a case of apples and oranges, which you still will not admit.
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 06:27:09 PM
Not that you ever made the references to Arlington Cemetery relevant to the discussion anyway.
Not that you ever made references to the Edinburgh tatoo relevant, you mean?
Well, let's try again then...
If you bring up something that one country does that another doesn't as something that is closer to North Korea than anything your own country does, then one should not be surprised if something your country has that another doesn't is brought up in response. Or were you not aware that North Korea has a Revolutionary Martyrs Cemetery? China has a similar institution as well. Britain doesn't. Westminster Abbey, the example you brought up initially, hasn't had a Royal buried there since George II. The other burials are a somewhat eclectic bunch, having nothing of the unity of purpose of the burials at Arlington or the Revolutionary Martyrs cemetery.
But since you are insistent on saying that I have compared the firefighters event itself in New York with North Korean practises when a simple perusal of my original post more than demonstrates that I didn't, I don't suppose anything I say will get through to you.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 20, 2010, 07:51:34 PM
Since I've made it three times, and you are the one who persist in bringing up cemeteries, no.
Okay, cemeteries are not relevant. Excellent.
QuoteWell, apart from the appropriate :lol: response at the comment that you do not engage in strawmanning and ad hominem arguments, or that you have no ego invested in the board when you demonstrably do
Please demonstrate, then. :)
Shuld be easy. Just find the posts with stawmen, ad hominem arguments, and that demonstrate ego-involvement, and post links here.
Quotethe simple fact is that you, personally, irritate me, and have done so since your inappropriate comments on the death of Robert Jordan. Hence my lack of patience with your standard tactics these days.
Boo fucking hoo. :) I didn't post any inappropriate comments about the death of Robert Jordan, and if you had such an emotional investment in the man that you see any critical remarks as "inappropriate," that is your problem, not mine.
Quote
Yes, that is a fair point. My mind was dwelling on a shoddy reference from a book with a declamatory speech from someone standing in the cemetery running something like "over that hill blah, blah, blah Americans died" as if a battlefield was part of the grounds. The land was, of course, part of Robert E. Lee's estate, confiscated for use as a military cemetery. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't change the fact that comparing the two locations is a case of apples and oranges, which you still will not admit.
Fortunately, cemeteries have no relevance here, so we need not debate the ways in which The Abbey and Arlington Cemetery are similar and different. :)
QuoteIf you bring up something that one country does that another doesn't as something that is closer to North Korea than anything your own country does, then one should not be surprised if something your country has that another doesn't is brought up in response.
:huh:
QuoteOr were you not aware that North Korea has a Revolutionary Martyrs Cemetery? China has a similar institution as well. Britain doesn't. Westminster Abbey, the example you brought up initially, hasn't had a Royal buried there since George II. The other burials are a somewhat eclectic bunch, having nothing of the unity of purpose of the burials at Arlington or the Revolutionary Martyrs cemetery.
:huh: The US does not have a "Revolutionary Martyrs Cemetery." There is no "unity of purpose" to burials at Arlington National Cemetery. The vast majority of those buried there were grunts, not "martyrs" of any sort. There are the occasional "big men" buried there, but then that is true of Westminster Abbey as well.
Was this the reason you brought up Arlington Cemetery? To try to compare it to North Korea's Revolutionary Martyrs Cemetery? In what way does Arlington Cemetary resemble RMC in which Aldershot Military Cemetery does not (other than having the occasional "big funeral" which in Britain would be at Westminster Abbey)?
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 09:36:06 PM
Should be easy. Just find the posts with strawmen, ad hominem arguments, and that demonstrate ego-involvement, and post links here.
You won't mind if I include casual insults, will you? You know, the thing you pointed out I was doing that you don't indulge in?
After all, in the last thirty minutes I've caught up on threads which contain at least two such examples merely from today. :)
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 09:36:06 PM
Boo fucking hoo. :) I didn't post any inappropriate comments about the death of Robert Jordan, and if you had such an emotional investment in the man that you see any critical remarks as "inappropriate," that is your problem, not mine.
Your words were along the lines of you imagining him tripping happily off to his grave pleased that he didn't have to finish his work (roughly, since the original words died with the old database.) You didn't seem to find anything wrong with what you had said then, and you still don't seem to now. I wouldn't have minded at all if you had criticised his writing, or some other aspect of his life, but what you said about his death was in extremely poor taste.
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 09:36:06 PM
:huh: The US does not have a "Revolutionary Martyrs Cemetery." There is no "unity of purpose" to burials at Arlington National Cemetery. The vast majority of those buried there were grunts, not "martyrs" of any sort. There are the occasional "big men" buried there, but then that is true of Westminster Abbey as well.
The vast majority of those buried there are from the Armed Forces, correct? Do you not consider that a unity of purpose compared to your average cemetery? Are residents local to the area who are not military personnel buried at Arlington as well then?
Arlington, when you consider as well the existence of parts of the site such as the National Memorial Amphitheatre, sounds as close to North Korean practise as the Edinburgh Tatoo does. Neither of them are very close at all, of course, but you are the one who brought the Tatoo up, not me.
As for Aldershot -
It is unlike any other military cemetery in the United Kingdom, for not only is it set on hills and small valleys in natural surrounds, but here, at rest, lie fighting men of nine nations, who have served and died in Aldershot.Here, in surroundings familiar during their soldiering days are the graves of the fighting men of all ranks and many nations, who have served, lived and died in Aldershot. Some of service personnel having died in the nearby Cambridge Military Hospital, from wounds or disease contracted while on active service overseas.The key point being that the majority of people buried at Aldershot died locally, they were not brought back from around the world specifically to be buried there. Families of the deceased are also buried there, which I do not believe to be the case at Arlington either. I consider these points to be key differences between the purpose of Aldershot and the purpose of Arlington.
So to recap.
Britain has the Edinburgh Tatoo, which you have stated is something that the USA does not do, and have stated that it is a ceremony closer to North Korean practises than the firefighter event in New York. Why you felt the need to state this is beyond me, given I had specifically separated out three actions from the whole for my thought experiment, but that is somewhat moot at this point. I then pointed out that Britain does not have a National Cemetery in the mold of Arlington, whereas North Korea does have a specifically National cemetery as well. It is, of course, far more extreme than anything at Arlington, but then I am sure that both you and I are aware that an actual North Korean ceremony is more extreme than anything at the Edinburgh Tatoo. You have tried to refute the point that the USA has something closer to the North Korean practise than Britain does by bringing up various British cemeteries to counter this point. Unfortunately for you, as Britain does not have a National Cemetery, you have singularly failed to support your contention in this case.
Satisfied now?
Quote from: Agelastus on March 21, 2010, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 09:36:06 PM
Should be easy. Just find the posts with strawmen, ad hominem arguments, and that demonstrate ego-involvement, and post links here.
You won't mind if I include casual insults, will you? You know, the thing you pointed out I was doing that you don't indulge in?
After all, in the last thirty minutes I've caught up on threads which contain at least two such examples merely from today. :)
Quote from: grumbler on March 20, 2010, 09:36:06 PM
Boo fucking hoo. :) I didn't post any inappropriate comments about the death of Robert Jordan, and if you had such an emotional investment in the man that you see any critical remarks as "inappropriate," that is your problem, not mine.
Still waiting for the examples of strawmen, ad hominem arguments, and posts that demonstrate ego-involvement. This utterly fails the test.
QuoteYour words were along the lines of you imagining him tripping happily off to his grave pleased that he didn't have to finish his work (roughly, since the original words died with the old database.) You didn't seem to find anything wrong with what you had said then, and you still don't seem to now. I wouldn't have minded at all if you had criticised his writing, or some other aspect of his life, but what you said about his death was in extremely poor taste.
Nope, I didn't say that I imagining him tripping happily off to his grave pleased that he didn't have to finish his work. You'll have to make up a more plausible lie; I am one of the few here that have stated the desire too finish the series.
QuoteThe vast majority of those buried there are from the Armed Forces, correct? Do you not consider that a unity of purpose compared to your average cemetery? Are residents local to the area who are not military personnel buried at Arlington as well then?
Nope, I find that the unity of purpose of cemeteries is to bury the dead. Arlington Cemetery allows the extension of a federal veterans benefit (free funerals) but that is something most Americans don't even know about. The overwhelming majority of service members and vets are buried in family plots, as I imagine is probably the case in Britain.
QuoteArlington, when you consider as well the existence of parts of the site such as the National Memorial Amphitheatre, sounds as close to North Korean practise as the Edinburgh Tatoo does.
Never heard of it, and I suspect you never had either. What is your point in bringing up the "National Memorial Amphitheatre?" And why does it have the British -tre ending to its name? I had heard of the Edinburgh Tatoo and Trooping the Colours before, though.
QuoteThe key point being that the majority of people buried at Aldershot died locally, they were not brought back from around the world specifically to be buried there. Families of the deceased are also buried there, which I do not believe to be the case at Arlington either. I consider these points to be key differences between the purpose of Aldershot and the purpose of Arlington.
The vast majority of those in Arlington died here in the US, and were not brought back specifically to be buried there. Spouses can be buried in National Cemeteries, but not children. As for Arlington in particular, I don't know if they are allowed any more for space reasons. I don't see any key differences between Aldershot and Arlington (or any of the other 146 US National Cemeteries) that are not also differences between them and the North Korean Martyrs cemetery
QuoteBritain has the Edinburgh Tatoo, which you have stated is something that the USA does not do, and have stated that it is a ceremony closer to North Korean practises than the firefighter event in New York. Why you felt the need to state this is beyond me, given I had specifically separated out three actions from the whole for my thought experiment, but that is somewhat moot at this point.
So far, so good. The comparison of the fire safety week event to North Korea is now moot. Agreed. Can we make the issue of North Korea moot as well? I never understood why you thought it useful to bring them into the discussion.
I
Quotethen pointed out that Britain does not have a National Cemetery in the mold of Arlington, whereas North Korea does have a specifically National cemetery as well.
And I pointed out that the North Korean cemetery seemed about as close to Aldershot + Westminster Abbey as it did to US National Cemeteries, but you never addressed why there was any significance to these cemeteries at all, so I have no idea what comparison is being made. "X is More like Y than Z is" isn't a useful observation when one doesn't know what about them is being compared. Types of trees that grow there? Overall size? Density of graves?
QuoteIt is, of course, far more extreme than anything at Arlington, but then I am sure that both you and I are aware that an actual North Korean ceremony is more extreme than anything at the Edinburgh Tatoo.
Again, saying that a military formation in Edinburgh or London is more like a military event in Pyongyang than a fire safety week in New York is like a military event in Pyongyang doesn't seem to me difficult to grasp. What is difficult to grasp is why we are comparing anything to anything in North Korea.
QuoteYou have tried to refute the point that the USA has something closer to the North Korean practise than Britain does by bringing up various British cemeteries to counter this point. Unfortunately for you, as Britain does not have a National Cemetery, you have singularly failed to support your contention in this case.
Since I have sen nothing in this debate that has anything to do with the national nature of any given cemetery, I can only observe that my contention is that cemeteries are where people are buried, and that Britain's lack of a national cemetery wherein people are buried doesn't mean that my contention is unsupported.
QuoteSatisfied now?
I still don't know why we were dicussing North Korea or cemeteries, but I can't say I really care all that much.
I'd still like to see this evidence of me engaging in strawmen, ad hominem arguments, and ego-involvement. So far you have you have "singularly failed to support your contention in this case," to borrow a phrase.
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
Nope, I didn't say that I imagining him tripping happily off to his grave pleased that he didn't have to finish his work. You'll have to make up a more plausible lie; I am one of the few here that have stated the desire too finish the series.
I do not lie. You wrote what you wrote. You have denied writing it before. As you are well aware, unless the old database can be revived, neither of us can prove the other wrong.
So it comes down to how good our respective memories are. Since you do not recall the post in question, I suspect mine is better. You will, of course, disagree with me. :)
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
Never heard of it, and I suspect you never had either. What is your point in bringing up the "National Memorial Amphitheatre?" And why does it have the British -tre ending to its name? I had heard of the Edinburgh Tatoo and Trooping the Colours before, though.
My apologies. That should, of course, be Arlington Memorial Amphitheater, although I am surprised you did not realise what I was talking about given your own knowledge of Arlington. The picture on Wikipedia suggests it is quite an imposing monument.
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
The vast majority of those in Arlington died here in the US, and were not brought back specifically to be buried there. Spouses can be buried in National Cemeteries, but not children. As for Arlington in particular, I don't know if they are allowed any more for space reasons. I don't see any key differences between Aldershot and Arlington (or any of the other 146 US National Cemeteries) that are not also differences between them and the North Korean Martyrs cemetery.
Until you fully consider the implications of having a cemetery officially designated as "national", I am sure you will not. :P
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 05:55:48 PMSo far, so good. The comparison of the fire safety week event to North Korea is now moot. Agreed. Can we make the issue of North Korea moot as well? I never understood why you thought it useful to bring them into the discussion.
Genuinely for the last time, I repeat, I extracted three actions from the event as a whole for a thought. You are the one who persisted in ignoring the fact that I had taken these actions in isolation and persisted in arguing as if I had directly compared the firemen's event to North Korea.
So if you want to drop North Korea, feel free to, since the fuss was on your side only.
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
...
I deleted all of the above due to the simple reason that it was more "why are we discussing North Korea" stuff when it was you who brought up comparisons of
specific events with North Korean practise in the first place. If you do not understand why we are discussing it, do not bring it up.
Are we done now? :)
Quote from: Agelastus on March 21, 2010, 06:41:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
The vast majority of those in Arlington died here in the US, and were not brought back specifically to be buried there. Spouses can be buried in National Cemeteries, but not children. As for Arlington in particular, I don't know if they are allowed any more for space reasons. I don't see any key differences between Aldershot and Arlington (or any of the other 146 US National Cemeteries) that are not also differences between them and the North Korean Martyrs cemetery.
Until you fully consider the implications of having a cemetery officially designated as "national", I am sure you will not. :P
The implication is that it's a cemetary established by the national government. Of course, I don't know whether or not grumbler has fully considered this or not.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 21, 2010, 06:41:50 PM
I do not lie. You wrote what you wrote. You have denied writing it before. As you are well aware, unless the old database can be revived, neither of us can prove the other wrong.
How profoundly tautological.
In the absence of evidence, we are stuck with expert opinion. Who is the greater expert on what I write: you, or me?
QuoteSo it comes down to how good our respective memories are. Since you do not recall the post in question, I suspect mine is better. You will, of course, disagree with me. :)
Since I remember what I write better than you do, I suspect that we both know who is likelier to be correct. It could well be that someone wrote a post which says something that I disagree with about Jordan, and you attributed it to me. It is even remotely possible that i said something about Jordan in jest that you took seriously and have been offended by ever since.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't care. You can carry that chip on your shoulder as long as you'd like. I just want it to be clear in everyone's mind that
you put it there, not me.
QuoteMy apologies. That should, of course, be Arlington Memorial Amphitheater, although I am surprised you did not realise what I was talking about given your own knowledge of Arlington. The picture on Wikipedia suggests it is quite an imposing monument.
I lived in Arlington and commuted through the cemetery many times. If it is an impressive monument, I have probably seen it. So what? It isn't well-known by name, and I fail to understand why you even bring it up. You keep mentioning places as though they were significant, and when pressed about their significance you just mention some other place.
QuoteUntil you fully consider the implications of having a cemetery officially designated as "national", I am sure you will not. :P
As I suspected: there is no reason why you brought it up, or else the reason you brought it up is so stupid that you won't say! :lol:
Okay, we'll consider the cemetery issue closed as being unrelated to anything in the thread.
QuoteGenuinely for the last time, I repeat, I extracted three actions from the event as a whole for a thought. You are the one who persisted in ignoring the fact that I had taken these actions in isolation and persisted in arguing as if I had directly compared the firemen's event to North Korea.
Genuinely for the last time, since you have made absolutely no points of any value about North Korea, can we drop the issue of North Korea?
And since yyou have no point about cemeteries and we have dropped North Korea, we have therefor dropped North Korean cemeteries too. Agreed?
QuoteI deleted all of the above due to the simple reason that it was more "why are we discussing North Korea" stuff when it was you who brought up comparisons of specific events with North Korean practise in the first place. If you do not understand why we are discussing it, do not bring it up.
So you don't even recall why you brought up North Korea? I though that as well.
QuoteAre we done now? :)
I'd say so. Let's just verify:
(1) You had nothing relevant to say about the fire prevention week events. Check.
(2) You had nothing relevant to say about the North Korea. Check.
(3) You had nothing relevant to say about the North Korean cemeteries. Check.
(4) You had nothing relevant to say about non-North Korean cemeteries. Check.
(5) You dropped that silliness about conclusions being final and not being opinions. Check.
(6) You proved unable to sustain in the slightest your contentions regarding my use of straw men or ad hominem arguments, or ego involvement. Check.
Yep, looks like we reached every necessary conclusion. We're done here.
Quote from: dps on March 21, 2010, 06:55:50 PM
The implication is that it's a cemetary established by the national government. Of course, I don't know whether or not grumbler has fully considered this or not.
Yes, I took the 0.9 nanoseconds of lifespan necessary to fully consider that angle.
Glad to see someone else who spells "cemetary" wrong. I do that every single time I type it, even knowing in advance that I will do so.
Quote from: DGuller on March 20, 2010, 12:28:35 PM
BTW, can you get in legal trouble for serving in bad faith as a juror?
On that note, I'm back from jury duty. Justice was: served. :menace:
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2010, 10:02:04 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 20, 2010, 12:28:35 PM
BTW, can you get in legal trouble for serving in bad faith as a juror?
On that note, I'm back from jury duty. Justice was: served. :menace:
I take it the verdict was guilty. Was the guy really guilty?
Oh, I have no idea... I was just kidding. The trial probably isn't over yet.
Some young kid (looked to be about 20), accused of robbery.
They randomly picked like 30 people to put through voir dire. They didn't pick me, but made me and the rest of the pool hang around in case anyone got booted. About a dozen did, for various reasons, so we were there to replace them on the panel. At the end after the Commonwealth and the defense were both done voir dire, the rest of us got to leave.
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Probably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire) It's wiki, so don't show Grumbler.
Interesting difference.
Yep.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 10:53:43 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Probably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire) It's wiki, so don't show Grumbler.
Interesting difference.
Don't anybody let Gay Fox know, but I use Wikipedia all the time, and instruct my students on how to use it. I am not sure how he would react to the news that sophisticated users know that Wikipedia is neither good nor bad, but rather good for some applications and bad for others - so let's not tell him.
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Yes, it is. Canadians are not using the term correctly.
Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2010, 11:17:16 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 10:53:43 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Probably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire) It's wiki, so don't show Grumbler.
Interesting difference.
Don't anybody let Gay Fox know, but I use Wikipedia all the time, and instruct my students on how to use it. I am not sure how he would react to the news that sophisticated users know that Wikipedia is neither good nor bad, but rather good for some applications and bad for others - so let's not tell him.
Do you have any links backing that up?
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 11:33:26 AM
Do you have any links backing that up?
Sure. http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=4053.msg207947#msg207947
Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2010, 11:37:43 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 11:33:26 AM
Do you have any links backing that up?
Sure. http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=4053.msg207947#msg207947
:lol:
Stop calling me Gay, it just makes Grallon hit on me and no one wants that.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 10:53:43 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Probably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire) It's wiki, so don't show Grumbler.
Interesting difference.
Huh.
What's wrong with the term 'jury selection'? :unsure:
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 11:53:55 AM
:lol:
Stop calling me Gay, it just makes Grallon hit on me and no one wants that.
Why? I'd prefer he stick to hitting on adults.
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 05:00:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 17, 2010, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
It was amazing, the small differences between the US and Canada. The reverence for the military was rather unusual.
Yes, it was.
You're just mad because you had people spitting in your face and calling you a babykiller after the war of 1812.
:spit take: :lol: :zing:
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 22, 2010, 11:53:55 AM
Stop calling me Gay, it just makes Grallon hit on me and no one wants that.
:lol: Done.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on March 22, 2010, 12:20:08 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 05:00:44 PM
You're just mad because you had people spitting in your face and calling you a babykiller after the war of 1812.
:spit take: :lol: :zing:
If it takes 5 days for you to get the joke, it probably wasn't all that funny. :cool:
Quote from: DGuller on March 22, 2010, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Yes, it is. Canadians are not using the term correctly.
:lol:
Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2010, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on March 22, 2010, 12:20:08 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 17, 2010, 05:00:44 PM
You're just mad because you had people spitting in your face and calling you a babykiller after the war of 1812.
:spit take: :lol: :zing:
If it takes 5 days for you to get the joke, it probably wasn't all that funny. :cool:
I just opened the thread. I don't spend all day on here.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on March 22, 2010, 12:25:22 PM
I just opened the thread. I don't spend all day on here.
your loss
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on March 22, 2010, 12:25:22 PM
[I just opened the thread. I don't spend all day on here.
This board would be
so much better if we had a :whoosh: smiley. :(
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 07:12:48 PM
How profoundly tautological.
In the absence of evidence, we are stuck with expert opinion. Who is the greater expert on what I write: you, or me?
In the absence of corroborating witnesses, neither of us. :P
Quote from: grumbler on March 21, 2010, 07:12:48 PM
Since I remember what I write better than you do, I suspect that we both know who is likelier to be correct. It could well be that someone wrote a post which says something that I disagree with about Jordan, and you attributed it to me. It is even remotely possible that i said something about Jordan in jest that you took seriously and have been offended by ever since.
You posted in response to news of his death (it was one of our obligatory RIP threads) on the first page and not in response to a preceding post. Additionally I challenged you at the time and you defended your post rather than claiming it was a jest, so no, I believe you meant it and I believe it was in extremely poor taste.
It even broke your own rules on posting by implying you knew what could not be known or backed up by facts; in this case his state of mind on dying.
...................
As to the other matters in this thread, considering your wilful determination to be ignorant regarding the relevance of the term "National" in regard to Arlington, and your persistence in disclaiming all responsibility for dragging North Korea into the matter in relation to actual events in the USA and the UK, then I agree that we have nothing further to discuss.
And Grumbler...
QuoteThis board would be so much better if we had a :whoosh: smiley.
That would be nice. Would it help if we took a vote on the issue?
Quote from: Agelastus on March 22, 2010, 04:38:14 PM
As to the other matters in this thread, considering your wilful determination to be ignorant regarding the relevance of the term "National" in regard to Arlington, and your persistence in disclaiming all responsibility for dragging North Korea into the matter in relation to actual events in the USA and the UK...
A classic weasel! Had to respond just to get this preserved in amber before you realize how silly you sound and delete it!
I am showing "wilful [sic] determination to be ignorant regarding the relevance of the term "National" in regard to Arlington" when I have repeatedly asked you to make a point regarding the cemeteries and you have squirmed away from answering? For that kind of reasoning, only :rolleyes: can
possibly apply!
And
you brought up North Korea, not me. If it didn't apply to anything, you should not have brought it up, no?
Again, :rolleyes: is the only possible response.
I thought we were done, but if you insist on dancing the Flamenco on your crank, maybe we can see more of your Carmen Miranda act. Please don't stop on my account.
This thread is gay.
Quote from: Siege on March 23, 2010, 05:15:17 AM
This thread is gay.
That wasn't a thread you were seeing, it was a mirror.
Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2010, 05:35:22 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on March 22, 2010, 04:38:14 PM
As to the other matters in this thread, considering your wilful determination to be ignorant regarding the relevance of the term "National" in regard to Arlington, and your persistence in disclaiming all responsibility for dragging North Korea into the matter in relation to actual events in the USA and the UK...
A classic weasel! Had to respond just to get this preserved in amber before you realize how silly you sound and delete it!
I am showing "wilful [sic] determination to be ignorant regarding the relevance of the term "National" in regard to Arlington" when I have repeatedly asked you to make a point regarding the cemeteries and you have squirmed away from answering? For that kind of reasoning, only :rolleyes: can possibly apply!
And you brought up North Korea, not me. If it didn't apply to anything, you should not have brought it up, no?
Again, :rolleyes: is the only possible response.
I thought we were done, but if you insist on dancing the Flamenco on your crank, maybe we can see more of your Carmen Miranda act. Please don't stop on my account.
I brought up North Korea when taking several actions in isolation related to the event carried to extremes. You are the one who has spent several pages insisting on connecting the real event to North Korea, despite repeatedly being reminded, in clear language, that this was not what I had posted. Simply put, the only weasel in this "discussion" is you; your determination to go on and on to avoid admitting your own mistake has been quite amusing, but it is over now.
I've had enough of this for this thread; even unemployed as I am I have better things to do than go in circles with a man who will not admit error. At least I am willing to admit when I have made a mistake, as has again been demonstrated in the course of this discussion.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 23, 2010, 07:24:51 AM
I brought up North Korea when taking several actions in isolation related to the event carried to extremes.
Why? Did you think everyone cared about events that didn't exist carried to an extreme that didn't exist and then compared to a country in a way that made no sense?
QuoteYou are the one who has spent several pages insisting on connecting the real event to North Korea, despite repeatedly being reminded, in clear language, that this was not what I had posted.
If I had been reading clearly, rather than with an assumption that your post meant something, i would have realized that your post was intentionally absurd and that the mention of North Kiorea was not intended to refer to any real North Koreas... or something. However, after you explained that you were not referring to real North Koreas or real firefighters or real children, and that the comparison you made between them was intended to be meaningless, we were done with that topic - but not with North Korea, because you then went on about some North Korean cemetery, while refusing to say what that meant, either. So, twice we have had North Korea brought into this discussion, and both times it was by you.
QuoteSimply put, the only weasel in this "discussion" is you; your determination to go on and on to avoid admitting your own mistake has been quite amusing, but it is over now.
I could not be mistaken because your posts were, by your own admission, not related to real events. You have weaselled around and refused to say what they actually refer to, but that isn't my problem, either.
QuoteI've had enough of this for this thread; even unemployed as I am I have better things to do than go in circles with a man who will not admit error. At least I am willing to admit when I have made a mistake, as has again been demonstrated in the course of this discussion.
I don't even know what "error" you claim I am refusing to admit to. I have stated the six errors you have made, and you have not stated one that you think i made.
So, no, I won't admit errors you are too weaselly to even state openly that you think I made! :lmfao:
You can stop at any time. I won't, because this is too, too funny watching you try to attack me while at the same time trying as hard as you can to say nothing meaningful at all.
Quote from: DGuller on March 22, 2010, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 10:48:04 AM
Are you sure they called the process a voir dire? We use the same term in a quite different way...
Yes, it is. Canadians are not using the term correctly.
:lol:
Well played.