Boss: I’d rather employ a paedo than a veteran

[Martinus]

Here we would have a nutso with pictures of a Pope everywhere instead, for example.

Our nutso would sell Franco wine. 

Btw, when I said "Pope" obviously you realise I meant the real Pope, not the German upstart.

I remember when he died, there were his pictures everywhere. My favourite was the one in the window of a shop with women lingerie.

[Martinus]

In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.

At least Spanish citizens who cross borders and murder innocent people are not welcomed home as heroes, or offered free lunch in some fascist steak houses.

[grumbler]

In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.

At least Spanish citizens who cross borders and murder innocent people are not welcomed home as heroes, or offered free lunch in some fascist steak houses.

Untrue, as you well know.  They are not only welcomed and fed as heroic assistants to the Nazis, they are eligible to become head of state.  If they have killed some Jews, they are also made head of state (but of Poland, not Spain).

[grumbler]

Btw, when I said "Pope" obviously you realise I meant the real Pope, not the German upstart.

The only real Pope was the first one.

And he was a Jew, so the Polacks would have killed him! 

[Jaron]

Btw, when I said "Pope" obviously you realise I meant the real Pope, not the German upstart.

The only real Pope was the first one.

And he was a Jew, so the Polacks would have killed him! 

This is not funny.

[Admiral Yi]

Larch: Have you seen the movie The Hurricane?  A white working class guy in Philly expressing support for the cops carries a lot of subtext.

[Agelastus]

I think this thread is telling us much more about the Larch than about anything else.  Firefighters doing extravagant things to try to make kids aware of the dangers of fire?  Zounds!  Call the newspapers and let's get the film ready for the 11 o'clock broadcast!

In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.

I don't think they'd do that anywhere in Europe, even Britain.

Bussing in schoolkids? Taking over a public place? Making the kids take an oath? That to me just looks wierd, and I am sure it seems the same to my neighbours in Europe. As someone posted above, it's "over the top", but not unexpected in the USA.

The funny thing is that the three things I have written in italics, when taken in COMPLETE isolation, sound an awful lot like the practises of regimes such as North Korea. I'm very glad America is a genuinely democratic Republic, as as an authoritarian regime you would be terrifying.

[Ed Anger]

I think this thread is telling us much more about the Larch than about anything else.  Firefighters doing extravagant things to try to make kids aware of the dangers of fire?  Zounds!  Call the newspapers and let's get the film ready for the 11 o'clock broadcast!

In Spain they might not do this, but then Spanish citizens cross the borders and murder French policemen, so maybe the kids learn from that.

Making the kids take an oath?

You mean the pledge of allegiance? The kid doesn't have to recite it. Lord knows how many times I faked that in my years of forced work in the K-12 system.

[grumbler]

I don't think they'd do that anywhere in Europe, even Britain.

Bussing in schoolkids? Taking over a public place? Making the kids take an oath? That to me just looks wierd, and I am sure it seems the same to my neighbours in Europe. As someone posted above, it's "over the top", but not unexpected in the USA.

Kids in Europe do not go to public places on buses?  I suppose not.  Are there such things as school buses in Europe?  We have them here, and bus kids around in them all the time.  Doesn't seem weird or over the top at all, but then I am not European.  Your tops may be very low.

As for using public spaces for public events, that also happens here all the time.  I know Euros are afraid they will get all Nuremberg-rallyish if they meet in public spaces in any numbers, but I think you ought to try trusting yourself more.  You also see less crowding in all the private places where you hold public events.

Dunno about the oath thing; I have never seen it.  What is the oath, and how are the kids being made to take it?  That would seem weird to me and my neighbors in the US.  Are you sure this is what you were seeing?

The funny thing is that the three things I have written in italics, when taken in COMPLETE isolation, sound an awful lot like the practises of regimes such as North Korea.

It is kinda weird to think that Europeans have so lost perspective that they think having public events in public paces is found only in North Korea.  Maybe if you got out into the world more, you would see that this isn't true - you see it throughout Asia, South America, Africa, North America, and Oceania.  Busing school kids to events probably happens more in Australia than North Korea, but maybe more often in North Korea than in Denmark or Britain.

I'm very glad America is a genuinely democratic Republic, as as an authoritarian regime you would be terrifying.

Probably not as terrifying as the European authoritarian regimes have been, because of the traditional American individualism and lack of respect for authority, but I am very glad that America is genuinely democratic as well, and hope that Europe's conversion to the same standard is permanent this time.

[Agelastus]

Kids in Europe do not go to public places on buses?  I suppose not.  Are there such things as school buses in Europe?  We have them here, and bus kids around in them all the time.  Doesn't seem weird or over the top at all, but then I am not European.  Your tops may be very low.

School trips yes, to museums and the like. Having multiple schools send them all at the same time to a fireman's rally in a public space? No.

As for using public spaces for public events, that also happens here all the time.  I know Euros are afraid they will get all Nuremberg-rallyish if they meet in public spaces in any numbers, but I think you ought to try trusting yourself more.  You also see less crowding in all the private places where you hold public events.

It's nothing to do with Nuremburg! Consider what country I live in. It's the idea of holding a mass public fire prevention day that's so strange. Or a mass crime prevention day. Firemen and policemen go to the schools rather than the other way round. In fact, isn't that more of a "servant of the people" method than public rallies anyway?

Hey...hasn't this come up before recently on Languish anyway?

Dunno about the oath thing; I have never seen it.  What is the oath, and how are the kids being made to take it?  That would seem weird to me and my neighbors in the US.  Are you sure this is what you were seeing?

Haven't got a clue - don't forget I am quoting my reaction and what I feel the general reaction here would be to what Larch's experience was. Ask him for confirmation. I believe he wrote that they were taking an oath regarding the prevention and reporting of fires.

It is kinda weird to think that Europeans have so lost perspective that they think having public events in public paces is found only in North Korea.  Maybe if you got out into the world more, you would see that this isn't true - you see it throughout Asia, South America, Africa, North America, and Oceania.  Busing school kids to events probably happens more in Australia than North Korea, but maybe more often in North Korea than in Denmark or Britain.

Grumbler, sometimes I despair of you. I had assumed that you wouldn't bother making the snarky comment since I had specifically said the "three points" when "taken in COMPLETE isolation". And you yourself seem surprised by the idea of the oath. Commenting on one or two parts of a three part statement that needs to be taken as a whole is a favourite trick of yours, and the only person it makes look stupid is you.

But to respond to your own words. So when people are bussed to public events in Asia, South America, Africa, North America and Oceania taking an oath regarding the subject matter of the event is normal then? Because due to your deliberate selectiveness in responding to my statement, that is what you have implied.

Probably not as terrifying as the European authoritarian regimes have been, because of the traditional American individualism and lack of respect for authority, but I am very glad that America is genuinely democratic as well, and hope that Europe's conversion to the same standard is permanent this time.

Given the enviable American achievements over the last century economically speaking, and the impressive natural resources of your country, I genuinely think an authoriatian regime in America would be much scarier than the Nazis, except possibly in the field of Eugenics...and even then, I am not entirely sure given some of the things your fringe groups seem to believe.

[grumbler]

School trips yes, to museums and the like. Having multiple schools send them all at the same time to a fireman's rally in a public space? No. 

So it is the fact that it was a fire prevention rally that bothered you?  The fact that it was in a public space?  the fact that it was multiple schools?  I am still mystified.

It's nothing to do with Nuremburg! Consider what country I live in. It's the idea of holding a mass public fire prevention day that's so strange. Or a mass crime prevention day. Firemen and policemen go to the schools rather than the other way round. In fact, isn't that more of a "servant of the people" method than public rallies anyway?

Firemen and policemen go to the schools around here as well, but this isn't New York City, where bringing kids together is easy and fast.  I have never seen anything like what Larchie and Minsky describe, but I don't think it "weird" because I haven;t seen it.  Big city types do lots of things we don't do outside the big cities.

Haven't got a clue - don't forget I am quoting my reaction and what I feel the general reaction here would be to what Larch's experience was. Ask him for confirmation. I believe he wrote that they were taking an oath regarding the prevention and reporting of fires.

Ah.  I think we can dispense with that part of it, then.

Grumbler, sometimes I despair of you. I had assumed that you wouldn't bother making the snarky comment since I had specifically said the "three points" when "taken in COMPLETE isolation". And you yourself seem surprised by the idea of the oath. Commenting on one or two parts of a three part statement that needs to be taken as a whole is a favourite trick of yours, and the only person it makes look stupid is you.

  If you have three different points, and take them in isolation, that means you are dealing with them individually (isolated from one another).  That is exactly how I responded.  If that's not what you meant, then you mis-spoke or I mis-heard. 

If you mean to say that, if one were to take Larch's story at face value and isolated from everything else you knew, it would sound totalitarian, I wouldn't disagree - but that its because this is how he wanted it to sound.

But to respond to your own words. So when people are bussed to public events in Asia, South America, Africa, North America and Oceania taking an oath regarding the subject matter of the event is normal then? Because due to your deliberate selectiveness in responding to my statement, that is what you have implied.

Not only is it not normal in the world, it isn't normal in the US either.  The selectiveness isn't on my part, it is on yours.  You are making an anecdote into a true sample, ad that is always dangerous.

Given the enviable American achievements over the last century economically speaking, and the impressive natural resources of your country, I genuinely think an authoriatian regime in America would be much scarier than the Nazis, except possibly in the field of Eugenics...and even then, I am not entirely sure given some of the things your fringe groups seem to believe.

The problem is that an authoritarian regime in the US wouldn't even be as successful as the British one was.  The country would be racked by strikes at the least, and civil war might well be likely.  The military would be split between those who honored their oaths and those who thought loyalty to an athoritarian commander was more important than their oaths... it would be a mess.

[dps]

There were two fire engines with their telescopic stairs (? No idea of its name in English)

They're called ladders.

[The Larch]

Now you're the one that is projecting. I never said that it was pseudo-fascistic, or that it made me feel uneasy, that I found it unpalatable or anything. I only used that event as an anecdotical evidence of the level of resources, attention and support that NYC firemen could get to get their message across. I can't see Spanish firefighters doing something similar.

...I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".

On the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well.

Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it is what you said.

Again - nothing to do with "authority". I mostly agree with you, except that every time you keep dragging out the "authority worship" thing, which is simply wrong, and is precisely why DG brought up the supposed paradox of people who claim to love freedom being a bit fascist in their support of authority for its own sake.

It is only a paradox if you assume that the thing they care about is the authority that is represented. That is wrong for 2 reasons:

1. Firefighters do not represent authority, and
2. Even when talking about police (who do), the thing being respected/venerated/whatever is not their authority, it is their service and sacrifice.

A little thinking would in fact make it clear that it cannot really be "authority worship" if for no other reason than the two primary examples provided (police and firefighters) do not even share that trait.

I think that the insistence that this is some kind of "authority worship" says more about the person leveling that claim than the people it is being leveled at.

I think that we're laregely in agreement, but you're getting quite wound up on the "authority" thing, which I personally have no problem about defining or describing in some other way (uniforms, servicemen, whatever), in order to avoid the endless debate about semantics. You yourself called it "shallow veneration of service", or something like that, which I'm perfectly cool with as a definition. 

[The Larch]

Larch: Have you seen the movie The Hurricane?  A white working class guy in Philly expressing support for the cops carries a lot of subtext.

Nope, haven't seen it. I get the overtones of what you imply, though.

[Agelastus]

First thing. I HATE cropping posts for replies at this time of day. For some reason around midnight to 3am when I try it I have a massively delayed cursor reaction, on the order of 30 seconds quite often. It is a right royal pain.

  If you have three different points, and take them in isolation, that means you are dealing with them individually (isolated from one another).  That is exactly how I responded.  If that's not what you meant, then you mis-spoke or I mis-heard. 

If you mean to say that, if one were to take Larch's story at face value and isolated from everything else you knew, it would sound totalitarian, I wouldn't disagree - but that its because this is how he wanted it to sound.

The three actions I listed were italicised, to indicate the continuity of the thought, and to highlight them for the next paragraph where I explicitly grouped them under one heading. Your final sentence pretty much expresses the point I made, although I deliberately removed the actions from the context of Larch's story for the point I was making, as it had been these points taken in isolation that had led me on to the consideration of how scary the USA would be as a dictatorship.

The problem is that an authoritarian regime in the US wouldn't even be as successful as the British one was.  The country would be racked by strikes at the least, and civil war might well be likely.  The military would be split between those who honored their oaths and those who thought loyalty to an athoritarian commander was more important than their oaths... it would be a mess.

I'd ask you about what exact period you were referring to when you spoke about the "British authoritarian regime" but I strongly suspect that would lead us on to a subject on which agreement between us would be genuinely impossible and one that I studiously avoid discussing on internet fora.

As for your points...well, you seem to be talking more about events during the creation of such a regime rather than the abilities of such a regime that was already in place. While strikes could, and would, happen under such a regime (and would probably be put down very bloodily) your comments about civil war and the split of the military aren't really germane to the thought of what an authoritarian regime in place in the USA could achieve.