Boss: I’d rather employ a paedo than a veteran

[Barrister]

For what it's worth in Canada I dare say the police have a long history of being very well respected.  Hell a mountie in red serge is a national symbol.

The military - it's interesting.  I understand of course the military was highly respected 40 years ago.  But decades of spending cuts and de-emphazing the military... well 10-20 years ago it was still respected, but it became seen as something that only people with few options in life would go into.

Afghanistan has changed all that.  Now the military again gets tons of respect, Rememberance Day has become huge again, that kind of thing.  It is not uncommon to see "support our troops" signs, bumper stickers, etc.

[The Larch]

Just curious - did you try to order in Spanish?   

Nope, we had already eaten at the joint across the street.

[The Larch]

Here we would have a nutso with pictures of a Pope everywhere instead, for example.

Our nutso would sell Franco wine. 

[Barrister]

Just curious - did you try to order in Spanish?   

Nope, we had already eaten at the joint across the street.

All the more reason to walk up and order in spanish... 

[The Larch]

Just curious - did you try to order in Spanish?   

Nope, we had already eaten at the joint across the street.

All the more reason to walk up and order in spanish... 

Apparently the guy had the policy not of refusing service (he could get sued out of his mind if he did it, I guess), but of giving the offending person a bun with cheese wiz on it alone, or something like that. I'm not paying 7 dollars for that. 

[Caliga]

Mumia Abu Jamal

I'm surprised that we've never had a thread wherein any Eurofruits have defended that piece of shit, actually. 

[Martinus]

Well, the owner is clearly a nutso, but I think that the type of nutsos you get in a society also speaks something about the overall values of the society itself. Sure, the guy may be taking the idea to the extreme, but I don't imagine anything even remotely close taking place in Poland

Both Spain and Poland were authoritarian states withing a single generation - it would make sense that citizens in both states would have some ingrained suspicion of police, paramilitary and other uniformed authority figures.  The US OTOH has been a functioning limited constitutional democracy for a few hundred years, and local law enforcement officers are subject to all sorts of controls.  Other than with respect to certain socio-economic groups that have historically been subject to more intrusive police tactics, many Americans have no historical reason to have any particular suspicion and hostility of local authorities.  It is more common to identify such authorities in a possessive way as being "our" police and firemen.  That is a tendency reinforced by the fact that such organs recruit from predominantly working ("middle") class areas in the communities where the officers serve, underlining the connection between local law enforcement and the people who live in that locality.

No disagreement there - I actually stated as much few pages ago. I think what Berkut et al. are arguing against is not that the American "military worship" is unjustified, but that it is non-existent.

[The Brain]

Mumia Abu Jamal

What? He was great in Airplane.

[Barrister]

No disagreement there - I actually stated as much few pages ago. I think what Berkut et al. are arguing against is not that the American "military worship" is unjustified, but that it is non-existent.

Well, yeah.  The word "worship" is hardly correct.

[Grey Fox]

For what it's worth in Canada I dare say the police have a long history of being very well respected.  Hell a mountie in red serge is a national symbol.

The military - it's interesting.  I understand of course the military was highly respected 40 years ago.  But decades of spending cuts and de-emphazing the military... well 10-20 years ago it was still respected, but it became seen as something that only people with few options in life would go into.

Afghanistan has changed all that.  Now the military again gets tons of respect, Rememberance Day has become huge again, that kind of thing.  It is not uncommon to see "support our troops" signs, bumper stickers, etc.

You know what is freaky? The Military is quite popular in Quebec.

[Razgovory]

Also it should be noted that the US hasn't been invaded for a long time.  So the US doesn't have much experience with foreign soldiers.

Generally I respect police and soldiers.  I wanted to be a soldier and I'm always polite and helpful to police.  Even if they are questioning me or pulling me over.  I've never had a reason to be otherwise.  Even that time I went nuts and they were about to arrest me, I tried to be polite.  I suppose that did pay off since they took the cuffs off and let me go.  I even wrote them a letter afterwords apologizing for my behavior and making them come out there.

[The Larch]

As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. 

Right, but what I am saying is that I don't even think it is an extreme example of what you are trying to say - it is an extreme example, but I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".

On the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well. I was going to tell another anecdote in the same post but it'd be too much so I'll do it here. In NYC, when I was there, there was a big firefighter event one day on the Rockefeller Center. All the area was flooded with uniformed firemen, displaying all their equipment in some kind of showcase. There were lots of schoolbuses with children and their teachers attending. The fire commissioner of NYC gave a speech about fire prevention and administered the children an oath, with them being "honorary firefighters" and vowing to do their utmost to prevent fires and checking smoke detectors and stuff. I know that it's great to have kids taught about fire prevention, but the whole thing seems very over the top. I can't see something similar happening in Madrid, with firemen occupying a landmark for an event.

Another pet peeve of mine were the firefighter's uniforms. Why do they have such elaborate dress uniforms, complete with medals and everything? Is that something from NYC alone, or are other cities' firemen also dressed that way for ceremonial purposes? As I sad, they resembled military officers rather than firemen. Minsky explained it a bit to me, what with the historical background of it, but still it seemed quite exagerated.

And there are other things, maybe smaller, maybe more discreet, maybe things you're used to and don't see as special, but still there.

It's only something to showcase the different values attached to service in the USA and in my neck of the woods.

That is a telling point. In the US, it is considered honorable, at least among much of the population, to go into a career of service, whether that be the military, police, firefighters, etc., etc., etc.

While I don't really share in the sometimes shallow veneration that this sometimes manifests itself as, I would MUCH rather live in a society that values and respects those who go into these careers than one that belittles and mocks them.

Of course, I am a product of that very society, so I guess that is to be expected.

I don't think that they're belittled or mocked over here, as Aegelastus (I think) said, they're "just there". They're people who do their jobs and that's it. They don't enjoy the veneration that their American counterparts do. I don't say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's quite over the top on occasions and very much in-your-face for an outsider.

[Barrister]

You're surprised at there being a lot of firefighters at a big firefighter event?

You know the various Law Societies put on a Law Day once a year, where you have kids being taught about courtrooms and laws, a bunch of lawyers will be around... but it sure doesn't mean people worship lawyers.   

[The Larch]

You're surprised at there being a lot of firefighters at a big firefighter event?

Nope.  I just wanted to say that the whole setup seemed over the top. There were two fire engines with their telescopic stairs (? No idea of its name in English) elevated and used as props for a ginormous Stars & Stripes flag to serve as background for the podium, there were plenty of trucks of all kind (hazmat and the like), the area was enclosed. Lots of television and media. It seemed to be quite a big deal.

I have a picture of it, I'll see if I can get it scanned.

[Berkut]

As I told DGuller, I know that it's an extreme example of what I'm trying to say. 

Right, but what I am saying is that I don't even think it is an extreme example of what you are trying to say - it is an extreme example, but I doubt it has anything to do with "authority worship".

On the contrary, I think it is. There's other stuff as well. I was going to tell another anecdote in the same post but it'd be too much so I'll do it here. In NYC, when I was there, there was a big firefighter event one day on the Rockefeller Center. All the area was flooded with uniformed firemen, displaying all their equipment in some kind of showcase. There were lots of schoolbuses with children and their teachers attending. The fire commissioner of NYC gave a speech about fire prevention and administered the children an oath, with them being "honorary firefighters" and vowing to do their utmost to prevent fires and checking smoke detectors and stuff. I know that it's great to have kids taught about fire prevention, but the whole thing seems very over the top. I can't see something similar happening in Madrid, with firemen occupying a landmark for an event.

Another pet peeve of mine were the firefighter's uniforms. Why do they have such elaborate dress uniforms, complete with medals and everything? Is that something from NYC alone, or are other cities' firemen also dressed that way for ceremonial purposes? As I sad, they resembled military officers rather than firemen. Minsky explained it a bit to me, what with the historical background of it, but still it seemed quite exagerated.

And there are other things, maybe smaller, maybe more discreet, maybe things you're used to and don't see as special, but still there.

That example doesn't evidence "authority worship" anymore than the other one does though.

I bet you could not find anyone who attended such a rally who would agree that they thing they admire and respect about fireman is that they are authority figures. I don't even think fireman ARE authority figures, really.

I think you are projecting a rather nasty little bit of pseudo-fascism on the entire thing that simply does not exist.

While you may not find the respect given to those in public service palatable, you could at least have the basic courtesy of not casting it as something it is not so you can feed your own rather shallow misconceptions about Americans.

It
Has
Nothing
To
Do
With
Authority