Boss: I’d rather employ a paedo than a veteran

[Martinus]

Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.

I was referring to the expectation of the public, not the means by which the service is provided.

Well, the expectation of the public with regards to volunteer firemen is that they hold charity balls and drink a lot.

In Poland people think many of them are arsonists or at least pyromaniacs.

[CountDeMoney]

Objection. Outside the big cities you'll usually have fire briagdes made up exclusive or mostly be volunteers in Germany.

I was referring to the expectation of the public, not the means by which the service is provided.

Well, the expectation of the public with regards to volunteer firemen is that they hold charity balls and drink a lot.

In Poland people think many of them are arsonists or at least pyromaniacs.

Don't worry, most volunteer firefighters here are as well.

[Oexmelin]

Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.

Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.

[Admiral Yi]

A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused.

Is this really all that unusual?  Are there countries where criticism from foreigners is welcomed and embraced?

[CountDeMoney]

Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.

Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.

We're a very insecure people, and want to be loved by everyone, and get very upset at the slightest criticism.  In that way, we're the geopolitical equivalent of a chick you knew in high school.

[Razgovory]

Although admittedly we don't ban movies that paint us in a bad light like some francophone countries.

[Oexmelin]

A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused.

Is this really all that unusual?  Are there countries where criticism from foreigners is welcomed and embraced?

I think there are places where it is much more welcome, where citizens are willing to pick and chose from observations from foreigners in order to either foster political points (Canada being amusingly used in such a way in the US now...). The contrast is great in the US because many Americans love - and use effectively - self-depreciating humor, including for their own country, but that evaporates whenever the context is enlarged with foreigners themselves, frequently deemed incapable of understanding or comparing meaningfully what they see. Americans believe so much in their own exceptionalism that they usually feel they have nothing or very little to gain from outside sources. If something is recognized as bad in the US, then it must be worse elsewhere, and if it is good in the US, then it must be less good elsewhere. Or at best, it is so different to be impossible to compare.

[Agelastus]

I'd ask you about what exactly an "an authoritarian regime in place in the USA could achieve" but I strongly suspect that would lead us on to a subject on which agreement between us would be genuinely impossible and one that I studiously avoid discussing on internet fora.

Well, it's a hoary old claim of the radicalised juvenilia that the USA uses its economic and technological might to rule the world, with other governments just its' puppets. 

If the USA had an authoritarian regime on the lines of Nazi Germany, for example, this might actually be true.

[Admiral Yi]

I think there are places where it is much more welcome, where citizens are willing to pick and chose from observations from foreigners in order to either foster political points (Canada being amusingly used in such a way in the US now...). The contrast is great in the US because many Americans love - and use effectively - self-depreciating humor, including for their own country, but that evaporates whenever the context is enlarged with foreigners themselves, frequently deemed incapable of understanding or comparing meaningfully what they see. Americans believe so much in their own exceptionalism that they usually feel they have nothing or very little to gain from outside sources. If something is recognized as bad in the US, then it must be worse elsewhere, and if it is good in the US, then it must be less good elsewhere. Or at best, it is so different to be impossible to compare.

You may be right, but there are two points I would like you to consider.

America gets bashed constantly by foreigners.  So whereas the first critical foreigner to visit the Faroe Islands in 50 years might have the value of novelty, the millionth foreign film slamming the superficiality of American culture or the millionth speech by a leftist politican blaming all the world's woes on American policy are closer to straws on the camel's back.

The flip side of that coin is that for non-Americans negative comments about the US are such a part of everyday life that they might lose sight of the fact that anyone can take offense at them, because obviously no one else around you does.  I am reminded of Fromagia's story of his trip back to England with his American wife, during which his brother started  to slag off the US, to his and his wife's embarassment.

Finally, I am sure you gathered more data on this topic during your time in the US, so I will just state the obvious and say one should not try to draw any generalizable rules from grumbler's response to Larch's comments.

[Martinus]

It's like we discuss these topics over and over again and constantly rehash the same arguments.

It's amazing how you people cry constantly about being bashed by foreigners, whereas it's a matter of course for each day of Languish to make jokes or disparaging comments about pretty much every other nation in the world (example being CdM's pretty much constant bullshit about the alleged European antisemitism). Americans pretty much constantly express their contempt for every other nation in the world (which is a part of the American "exceptionalist" paradigm) but seem extremely thin skinned when the same kind of generalizations (often ignorant - as 99% of American opinions about the rest of the world) are hurtled their way instead.

[Agelastus]

I guess some people don't understand anything about the US ethos of individualism, if they think a bunch of kids learning about fire safety is a threat to it.  This is in NYC, of course, which uses the publicity of such events to get the word out to the 900,000+ kids who couldn't be there that day.  I guess that is just a cultural difference, as you say, between British notions of individualism and American notions.

A threat to it? No, I don't think I've even come close to saying that. It is a genuinely curious contrast though between aspects of the country.

How much did it cost?  How much does sending firefighters to each school cost?  What is the reletive effectiveness of the two approaches?

I am sure you have a study to hand to answer these questions?

Perhaps.  Remember that this is "overblown" precisely because it does get attention, and does let the school-aged kids in NYC who couldn't be there know that they can do something about fire safety.

Yes, it's reported in the news. How much news do kids of that age watch? The rest of the week's events, the ones in the schools, may be aimed at the kids exclusively. This extravaganza is as much aimed at the adults in the city. "See, we politicians are doing all this to safeguard the children. Vote for us again."

Perhaps you will say I am too cynical here, although I doubt it.

I understand.  The strange can be scary, especially when you are from societies that shun the different.  i am pretty sure that it has no bearing on authoritarian regimes, though.  Except maybe the mob getting some "no show" jobs to award to members.

I wish you'd stop putting emotions in my mouth. Scary? More a feeling of dismay that such overblown pomp is felt neccessary. It is a lesser kin to the emotion I felt when observing the collective insanity that overtook my country when a certain manipulative bitch died in a carcrash.

And as for the "societies that shun the different" crack, I am fairly sure you know I am not a follower of Enoch Powell (slightly misrepresented as he was.) Given the amount of immigration to Britain over the last few decades, how could we be in this day and age? In fact, if we had a historical penchant for shunning the different, we would have locked ourselves up like China did and North America would probably be part of the Francophone world.

Oh, I am quite convinced of that.  Lots of stuff happens in NYC that would not happen elsewhere in the US, let alone London.  I could see a big fire safety rally in other big US cities, though.  After all, as we have pointed out before, in the US firefighters and police are not considered "them," they are considered part of "us" and so people are willing to listen to them about fire safety and whatnot, rather than shrugging and wondering what their ulterior motive is for talking about it.

And, once again, you appear to put words in my mouth that I have not said, nor do I recall anyone else in the thread saying that.

"Just there" does not equate to "them" rather than "us". It is more that they are so much a part of us that we feel no need to create such extravaganzas to celebrate them.

I did, as I am sure you are aware, express a purely personal negative reaction to the immediate presence of the police, for which I have no rational basis in fact. My own posts lumped them in with firemen as "just there" for the general case.

And where all of a sudden is this "ulterior motive" business coming from? The first time I have brought up the possibility is actually in this post.

[Oexmelin]

America gets bashed constantly by foreigners.  So whereas the first critical foreigner to visit the Faroe Islands in 50 years might have the value of novelty, the millionth foreign film slamming the superficiality of American culture or the millionth speech by a leftist politican blaming all the world's woes on American policy are closer to straws on the camel's back.

Quite frankly, I am not so sure of that. There is a lot of difference between bashing and bashing: comments from a Frenchmen are bound to be coming from a different perspective than global demonizing by Iran officials - just like the typical trucker from Nebraska is clearly not used to meeting with the American-bashing lefitst demonstrator in Madrid.
While this has been a favorite theme of Languish over the years, what I saw and heard in the US (and in a variety of milieus, not just the leftist-ivory-tower-America-hating-liberal-elite) was much more hovering between the desire for praise and the incomprehension at pointed criticism (rather than wholesale, ignorant generalities). It is frequently safely filed under "they hate us for our freedoms" or tamer variation.

[Razgovory]

What is the difference between bashing and bashing?

[Admiral Yi]

Quite frankly, I am not so sure of that. There is a lot of difference between bashing and bashing: comments from a Frenchmen are bound to be coming from a different perspective than global demonizing by Iran officials - just like the typical trucker from Nebraska is clearly not used to meeting with the American-bashing lefitst demonstrator in Madrid.
While this has been a favorite theme of Languish over the years, what I saw and heard in the US (and in a variety of milieus, not just the leftist-ivory-tower-America-hating-liberal-elite) was much more hovering between the desire for praise and the incomprehension at pointed criticism (rather than wholesale, ignorant generalities). It is frequently safely filed under "they hate us for our freedoms" or tamer variation.

Without knowing any of the particulars of your experiences it's difficult to comment.

[grumbler]

Poor Larch! If there is one thing I learned during my travels in the United States, it is that Americans resort to a thousand artifices, and to all the petty tricks of individual vanity do defend anything from their country.

Nothing is more embarrassing in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A stranger may be very well inclined to praise many of the institutions of their country, but he begs permission to blame some of the peculiarities which he observes—a permission which is, however, inexorably refused. America is therefore a free country, in which, lest anybody should be hurt by your remarks, you are not allowed to speak freely of private individuals, or of the State, of the citizens or of the authorities, of public or of private undertakings, or, in short, of anything at all, except it be of the climate and the soil; and even then Americans will be found ready to defend either the one or the other.

If there is one thing that I am learning on Languish, it is that even some of the most educated and intelligent posters will support even the silliest generalization made based on the most unlikely or singular anecdote - if the generalization is made about America and the poster is not American.  The support doesn't always come off as self-pitying, but that's where you should place any bets you wanna make.  When the support for silly sweeping generalizations is made in the form of a silly sweeping generalization, that is a bonus (which you shouldn't count on, as most posters have too much self-esteem to indulge in such laughable antics).