Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Yeah, I'm not getting what your point is.  It seems that "second only to the Qur'ran, for law ritual and creed" seems fit well with my statement that it is a religious authority. 

The point that I and the Britannica article are making is that there is no monolithic thing called the Hadiths as in your take them all or leave them all mindset. They are a series of anecdotal stories about what the Prophet said or did, frequently contradict each other, and possess no "word of God" authority.  Different sects and even different congregations accept some of them and reject others.  Citing a Hadith just tells you what some Muslims believe and you cannot generalize from them without very careful study.

Think of the collections of Hadiths as like a shelf of books in the library. You don't have to love, ignore, or hate the whole shelf.

Did I say, all?  No.  I said the majority.  Most Sunnis take this to be a religious authority, and that is why it makes a frequent appearance in antizionist discourse.  It is a reason why so many Muslims support the Palestinians.

[Razgovory]

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting the assassination of pro-peace political opponents.

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting and propping up Hamas.

It's like Arabs have no agency, things are the way there are solely because Israel wants it to be that way.

Can you blame them, they have an entire nation of Svengalis bordering them, controling their minds.

[grumbler]

Did I say, all?  No.  I said the majority.  Most Sunnis take this to be a religious authority, and that is why it makes a frequent appearance in antizionist discourse.  It is a reason why so many Muslims support the Palestinians.

You claimed that "Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims." I am pointing out that some Hadiths are considered religious authority by a majority of Muslims, and some are not.

You keep referring to them as though they were a unitary whole, and seem to claim that citing one tells us something about Muslims in general (or even what you call a "cult" amongst them, which makes no sense).  I keep pointing out that that is not how Hadiths work.

I teach this stuff. If you want any more lessons from me (and you need them) you'll have to pay me for them.  Charity time is over.

[Razgovory]

Did I say, all?  No.  I said the majority.  Most Sunnis take this to be a religious authority, and that is why it makes a frequent appearance in antizionist discourse.  It is a reason why so many Muslims support the Palestinians.

You claimed that "Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims." I am pointing out that some Hadiths are considered religious authority by a majority of Muslims, and some are not.

You keep referring to them as though they were a unitary whole, and seem to claim that citing one tells us something about Muslims in general (or even what you call a "cult" amongst them, which makes no sense).  I keep pointing out that that is not how Hadiths work.

I teach this stuff. If you want any more lessons from me (and you need them) you'll have to pay me for them.  Charity time is over.

The cult term was used by someone else.  I'm just echoing the usage.  Honestly, I think you are obfuscating.  We are talking about one particular hadith that has common currency among the Islamic antizionism.

[Iormlund]

The other way around, Rabin would have implemented the two state solution if he had lived. That is why he was assassinated.  The two state solution is still possible but not while those who wanted Rabin to be assassinated hold power.

I think the two-state solution had a deadline, and we're way past it.

The overwhelming majority of Israelis are against it now. That goes beyond those who want to claim the Occupied Territories. After Oct 7 most Jews simply don't trust a Palestinian entity on their borders.

[Zoupa]

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting the assassination of pro-peace political opponents.

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting and propping up Hamas.

It's like Arabs have no agency, things are the way there are solely because Israel wants it to be that way.

Yes.

[The Minsky Moment]

I think the two-state solution had a deadline, and we're way past it.

The overwhelming majority of Israelis are against it now. That goes beyond those who want to claim the Occupied Territories. After Oct 7 most Jews simply don't trust a Palestinian entity on their borders.

The alternatives to a two-state solution are an apartheid regime, a single Arab majority state, or destruction of any Jewish homeland in the region.

The notion that Israel can get security through ethnic cleansing is an obvious mirage.  Absent massive nuclear devastation engulfing the entire region, Israel will always be surrounded by hostile powers

[crazy canuck]

The other way around, Rabin would have implemented the two state solution if he had lived. That is why he was assassinated.  The two state solution is still possible but not while those who wanted Rabin to be assassinated hold power.

I think the two-state solution had a deadline, and we're way past it.

The overwhelming majority of Israelis are against it now. That goes beyond those who want to claim the Occupied Territories. After Oct 7 most Jews simply don't trust a Palestinian entity on their borders.

I, and everyone who cares about the well being of Israelis, hope you are wrong.  None of the alternatives end well for the Israelis.  Which is why Hamas has always opposed it.

[Admiral Yi]

The alternatives to a two-state solution are an apartheid regime, a single Arab majority state, or destruction of any Jewish homeland in the region.

The notion that Israel can get security through ethnic cleansing is an obvious mirage.  Absent massive nuclear devastation engulfing the entire region, Israel will always be surrounded by hostile powers

I've thought of an alternative.  A single state in which Arabs would win the vote after some period of nonparticipation in violence.

[crazy canuck]

Netanyahu is going to fully occupy Gaza.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday that Israel planned to take control of all of Gaza, bucking the advice of the Israeli military and warnings that expanding operations could endanger the hostages being held there and kill more Palestinian civilians.

Mr. Netanyahu made the comments in an interview with Fox News ahead of a security cabinet meeting on Thursday to discuss a proposal to expand military operations in Gaza. They came as talks to achieve a cease-fire and the release of the hostages have hit an impasse, with Israeli and Hamas officials blaming each other for the deadlock.

[Tonitrus]

I've thought of an alternative.  A single state in which Arabs would win the vote after some period of nonparticipation in violence.

There would be huge incentives for the in-power political parties/entities to continually broadly define "violence" so at to push off voting rights indefinitely/forever.  Maybe if it were to be monitored/enforced by a robust international authority, but I doubt Israel would ever go for that.

For myself, I think the two-state solution will never work, and a single/unified secular state (with peace and understanding among all) is the only workable plan...but also realize at the same time that that idea is absurdly utopian.

[crazy canuck]

I've thought of an alternative.  A single state in which Arabs would win the vote after some period of nonparticipation in violence.

There would be huge incentives for the in-power political parties/entities to continually broadly define "violence" so at to push off voting rights indefinitely/forever.  Maybe if it were to be monitored/enforced by a robust international authority, but I doubt Israel would ever go for that.

Yes, and also it assures the survival of Hamas. The option was so terrible that JR didn't bother mentioning it.

[Razgovory]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

Peace in the Middle East was not contingent on the life of one man.

That's your opinion.

If peace required Rabin, then by definition the two state solution is impossible.

The other way around, Rabin would have implemented the two state solution if he had lived. That is why he was assassinated.  The two state solution is still possible but not while those who wanted Rabin to be assassinated hold power.

It should also not be a surprise that those same people are currently starving Palestinian children and allowing settlers to kill Palestinians in the West Bank.

Rabin did not want a two state solution.

[Razgovory]

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting the assassination of pro-peace political opponents.

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting and propping up Hamas.

It's like Arabs have no agency, things are the way there are solely because Israel wants it to be that way.

Yes.

Then there can be no peace.  The Palestinians lack the agency to accept one.

[Tamas]

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting the assassination of pro-peace political opponents.

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting and propping up Hamas.

It's like Arabs have no agency, things are the way there are solely because Israel wants it to be that way.

Yes.

That's very French of you.