Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Zoupa]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

Peace in the Middle East was not contingent on the life of one man.

That's your opinion.

[The Minsky Moment]

You could analogize between the role of Hadith and the Schools of Jurisprudence in Islam and the Mishneh and Talmud in Judaism.

Ironically, the misuse of hadith to condemn Islam by some pro-Zionists in the 21st century is a very similar mode of argument used by anti-semites throughout history to attack Jews through the Mishnah and the Talmud.  "The Talmud Unmasked" is an example of such literature - I won't link to it but it can found easily online.

There is a lot of wacky stuff in the Mishnah and Talmud, just as there are in the hadith, and for similar reason.  Both were drafted and collected in or around the Near East in the early middle ages and thus reflect the less than PC attitudes of that time and place.  In some cases, when the rulings seem barbaric, a closer examination reveals that they are actually attempts to ameliorate or water down even harsher cultural practices that were common at the time.

[Iormlund]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

Peace in the Middle East was not contingent on the life of one man.

That's your opinion.

If peace required Rabin, then by definition the two state solution is impossible.

[Razgovory]

You could analogize between the role of Hadith and the Schools of Jurisprudence in Islam and the Mishneh and Talmud in Judaism.

Ironically, the misuse of hadith to condemn Islam by some pro-Zionists in the 21st century is a very similar mode of argument used by anti-semites throughout history to attack Jews through the Mishnah and the Talmud.  "The Talmud Unmasked" is an example of such literature - I won't link to it but it can found easily online.

There is a lot of wacky stuff in the Mishnah and Talmud, just as there are in the hadith, and for similar reason.  Both were drafted and collected in or around the Near East in the early middle ages and thus reflect the less than PC attitudes of that time and place.  In some cases, when the rulings seem barbaric, a closer examination reveals that they are actually attempts to ameliorate or water down even harsher cultural practices that were common at the time.

But is it a misuse?  I am more than willing to overlook the loopy shit in the Hadiths, just as I can overlook the loopy shit in the Bible, but this Hadith seems particularly important to Muslim antizionism.  The stuff in the Talmud about Jesus burning in shit was typically seen as  something of an embarrassment in the modern era, and not a rallying cry.  It's not like Herzl put it in any of his books that I know of.  I think the Hadiths (and the Koranic antisemitism) can be put in the same category as the apocalyptic stuff in the Bible.  We can dwell on both or neither.  Unfortunately, the antizionist movement is very keen to dwell on both (differing wings of course).  If someone wants to go on about "wacky cultists" trying to bring about the end of the world and stoking this conflict, then there is plenty to go around.

[Razgovory]

Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.

Do your homework and try again.

For Muslims, hadiths are among the sources through which they come to understand the practice of Muhammad and his Muslim community (ummah). As such, they constitute an important source, second only to the Qurʾān, for law, ritual, and creed.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hadith

Read what I wrote, read the Britannica article, and try again.

Yeah, I'm not getting what your point is.  It seems that "second only to the Qur'ran, for law ritual and creed" seems fit well with my statement that it is a religious authority.  

[Zoupa]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

Peace in the Middle East was not contingent on the life of one man.

That's your opinion.

If peace required Rabin, then by definition the two state solution is impossible.

Do you think russia would have invaded Ukraine if someone other than Putin was in charge?

[Razgovory]

You know Rabin wasn't keen on an actual Palestinian state, right?

[Zoupa]

Yes. What does that have to do with what caused Oslo to fail?

[Razgovory]

Yes. What does that have to do with what caused Oslo to fail?

Nothing, I was supporting Iormlund's point that with Rabin alive a two state solution was impossible.  He didn't support an actual Palestinian state.  Him dying resulted in the Palestinian being offered a better deal, which Arafat walked away from.  This increased his support among Palestinians, who were not that keen on peace in the first place.  

There will only be peace when the Palestinians are sick of war and put away the idea of one state in the Levant, Arab and Muslim.

[Zoupa]

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting the assassination of pro-peace political opponents.

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting and propping up Hamas.

[Josquius]

This is no True Scott's Man.  There are plenty of Muslims, hundreds of millions who do this.  Why should I take your word on what being a good Muslim is over Islamic leaders in Islamic countries.

Its not my word. Nor yours. Its people who actually know what they're talking about.
What you're doing here is even worse than when the evangelicals pick out one line from the bible, ignoring all those that go counter to it, and going "See! God wants us to be shit!"

But you do do it.  These beliefs are were not made up by Hamas, or the Qataris.  You say things about Christian Fundies that you wouldn't say about Muslim ones.  You do it because Muslims are labeled as marginalized and you don't want to punch down.

Which Muslim fundies are we talking about here?
The Saudi monarchy? You think I'm fond of them?
Or some random uneducated idiot off the streets of Gaza?

There's a big difference between those who have been drawn to fundamentalism as its the only game in town and they see it as their only chance, vs. those who with all the choices in the world choose to twist and contort their religion for evil.

Its exactly the same rules as with Christian fundies.
Random hick on a trailer park somewhere? You can get how they ended up in that place. Sympathy is there. They need education and opportunities.
Upper class mega bucks preacher? Cunt.

I used to do it as well, but have since come to the conclusion that such behavior is simply bigoted.

 
Your journey down the far right pipeline is truly fascinating.

You say that agree that Hamas are the bad guys, but you still want to give them victory.  As soon as the Israelis withdraw, Hamas will come out of their hidey-holes, put on their uniforms and celebrate.  And then they will go back to preparing for war and we will go through this all over again.

Ah yes. If Japan had just held out a little longer and let Kokura be nuked as well then that would absolutely have been a victory for them.

You're the one calling for actions that play right into Hamas' hands here.

[crazy canuck]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

Peace in the Middle East was not contingent on the life of one man.

That's your opinion.

If peace required Rabin, then by definition the two state solution is impossible.

The other way around, Rabin would have implemented the two state solution if he had lived. That is why he was assassinated.  The two state solution is still possible but not while those who wanted Rabin to be assassinated hold power.

It should also not be a surprise that those same people are currently starving Palestinian children and allowing settlers to kill Palestinians in the West Bank.

[DGuller]

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting the assassination of pro-peace political opponents.

There will only be peace when the Likud and other right-wing extremists in Israel stop supporting and propping up Hamas.

It's like Arabs have no agency, things are the way there are solely because Israel wants it to be that way.

[grumbler]

Yeah, I'm not getting what your point is.  It seems that "second only to the Qur'ran, for law ritual and creed" seems fit well with my statement that it is a religious authority. 

The point that I and the Britannica article are making is that there is no monolithic thing called the Hadiths as in your take them all or leave them all mindset. They are a series of anecdotal stories about what the Prophet said or did, frequently contradict each other, and possess no "word of God" authority.  Different sects and even different congregations accept some of them and reject others.  Citing a Hadith just tells you what some Muslims believe and you cannot generalize from them without very careful study.

Think of the collections of Hadiths as like a shelf of books in the library. You don't have to love, ignore, or hate the whole shelf.

[Razgovory]

Its not my word. Nor yours. Its people who actually know what they're talking about.
What you're doing here is even worse than when the evangelicals pick out one line from the bible, ignoring all those that go counter to it, and going "See! God wants us to be shit!"

 

It would help if you told me which authority you were appealing to.

Your journey down the far right pipeline is truly fascinating.

 [/quote]

Just to be clear, do you think it is right to have double standards based on religions or ethnicity?  Should people be treated differently depending on their religion or ethnic background?

Ah yes. If Japan had just held out a little longer and let Kokura be nuked as well then that would absolutely have been a victory for them.

You're the one calling for actions that play right into Hamas' hands here.

Yeah, I'm sure the Japanese militarists would have been deveasted if the US simply withdrew.

Which Muslim fundies are we talking about here?The Saudi monarchy? You think I'm fond of them?Or some random uneducated idiot off the streets of Gaza?There's a big difference between those who have been drawn to fundamentalism as its the only game in town and they see it as their only chance, vs. those who with all the choices in the world choose to twist and contort their religion for evil.Its exactly the same rules as with Christian fundies.Random hick on a trailer park somewhere? You can get how they ended up in that place. Sympathy is there. They need education and opportunities.Upper class mega bucks preacher? Cunt.

This is very patronizing.  The Muslim fundies aren't uneducated, they just think in ways you don't care for.  And you have frequently demonstrated your contempt for the random hick in a trailer park