Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Hamas' attack was a success in the end.

Only because the Israelis made it so.

The 911 attacks were similarly successful.

I'll note that the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin seems to have worked just spectacularly as well.

I'm forced to reluctantly conclude that terrorism works.

The purpose of terrorist acts has always been to provoke a response that meets their ends. They do not always succeed. But it can.  911 being, as you say, an example of that.

Hamas has historically been handled by Israel in a way that did not give Hamas success.  This Israeli government went off the rails in that regard.

Quite the contrary, they've been remarkably successful.  They were very successful in derailing the peace plan in the 1990's, and their propaganda arm has been very successful in West. 

[The Minsky Moment]

Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.

There are multiple hadith collections that are accorded different levels of authority or acceptance by different Muslim schools of thought and are given different levels of interpretation.

The particular hadith you are referring to are hadith of the end times, and in particular the Second Coming of Jesus (Isa), which happens to be a part of Islamic eschatology.  Not surprisingly, the Islamic traditions borrowed heavily from Christian accounts, including an Antichrist.  But also including the Christain tradition of the Tribulation which on some accounts includes the annihilation of the Jewish people, other than the select few that embrace Christ.   There are many Christians who continue to hold similar views; still, I think we should refrain from bombing them and reducing them to death through starvation.  At least for now,

[Josquius]

You've definitely been cribbing from certain Islamophobic sources there. This seems a popular one with a quick Google.

Worth noting Hamas are shit Muslims and that this verse is generally interpreted as just meaning soldiers. Genocide is haram (which yes. Doesn't stop the crazies much like in Christianity).

Also it's a prophecy. Not a command.

Islam just like Christianity has a long history of anti semitism, though very different and considerably less bad in nature.

Again though needs highlighting for the thousandth time. Hamas suck. Nobody here supports them at all. We all agree they're part of the problem in the area. This isn't a black and white topic.

It is a requirement for the end times to occur.  It is not relegated to just Hamas either, it comes up rather frequently.  This is taught to children.  This is not worth defending Josq, anymore than the Christian antisemitism.

What makes you think it very different and "considerably less bad in nature" than Christian antisemitism by the way?

It's not a requirement for the end times to occur. It's a prophecy of something that will happen during the apocalypse.

You're presenting it as a standard Muslim commandment to kill Jews.
Its not in the Koran and even within itself there's more to it than genocide is good.
Again, the world isn't black and white.

Islam has respect for people of the book as a core rule and generally averaged out muslim nations did treat Jews better than Christian nations treat infidels.

They also had a fundamentally different slant on why Jews were bad.
Christianity saw them as the christ killers and all the typical various anti semitic tropes we know and love. They were seen as an outright evil threat.
Islam on the other hand saw them more as idiots. The Jews rejected Islam... But they weren't an active problem. There was no vast united conspiracy to take over the world via satanic rituals.

[Razgovory]

Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.

There are multiple hadith collections that are accorded different levels of authority or acceptance by different Muslim schools of thought and are given different levels of interpretation.

The particular hadith you are referring to are hadith of the end times, and in particular the Second Coming of Jesus (Isa), which happens to be a part of Islamic eschatology.  Not surprisingly, the Islamic traditions borrowed heavily from Christian accounts, including an Antichrist.  But also including the Christain tradition of the Tribulation which on some accounts includes the annihilation of the Jewish people, other than the select few that embrace Christ.  There are many Christians who continue to hold similar views; still, I think we should refrain from bombing them and reducing them to death through starvation.  At least for now,

Okay, that's nice but it doesn't discount what I said.  And I pointed it out in the context of Christian Zionists, those wacky cult members trying to bring about the apocalypse.  Apparently those wacky cult members are who give aid to Israel are bad, but the wacky cult members who are driven to give aid to Palestine and are incited to kill get a pass.

[Razgovory]

You've definitely been cribbing from certain Islamophobic sources there. This seems a popular one with a quick Google.

Worth noting Hamas are shit Muslims and that this verse is generally interpreted as just meaning soldiers. Genocide is haram (which yes. Doesn't stop the crazies much like in Christianity).

Also it's a prophecy. Not a command.

Islam just like Christianity has a long history of anti semitism, though very different and considerably less bad in nature.

Again though needs highlighting for the thousandth time. Hamas suck. Nobody here supports them at all. We all agree they're part of the problem in the area. This isn't a black and white topic.

It is a requirement for the end times to occur.  It is not relegated to just Hamas either, it comes up rather frequently.  This is taught to children.  This is not worth defending Josq, anymore than the Christian antisemitism.

What makes you think it very different and "considerably less bad in nature" than Christian antisemitism by the way?

It's not a requirement for the end times to occur. It's a prophecy of something that will happen during the apocalypse.

You're presenting it as a standard Muslim commandment to kill Jews.
Its not in the Koran and even within itself there's more to it than genocide is good.
Again, the world isn't black and white.

Islam has respect for people of the book as a core rule and generally averaged out muslim nations did treat Jews better than Christian nations treat infidels.

They also had a fundamentally different slant on why Jews were bad.
Christianity saw them as the christ killers and all the typical various anti semitic tropes we know and love. They were seen as an outright evil threat.
Islam on the other hand saw them more as idiots. The Jews rejected Islam... But they weren't an active problem. There was no vast united conspiracy to take over the world via satanic rituals.

I'm presenting it as a common belief, held by religious authority, that Muslims are required to kill the Jews before the end of days.  Muslims did treat Jews better in the Middle Ages.  But that is a pretty low bar; Jews couldn't even live in England for centuries.  Treatment was not really good, more like Jim Crow or Jews living in Tsarist Russia.  Jews couldn't testify against Muslims in criminal court, Muslims had a religious duty to belittle Jews, Jews still faced pogroms and ethnic cleansing.

But we aren't talking about Muslims in the 10th century inventing the yellow badge for Jews, we are talking about Muslims now.  Large numbers of Muslims do see Jews as part of the vast united conspiracy to take over the the world.  They do see Jews as subhuman.  They do see Jews as the killers of the prophets and drinkers of children's blood.  Some of these ideas, like the blood libel, are imports from the West.  Others, like Jews being subhuman decedents of pigs and apes, are indigenous.

To decry Christian supporters of Israel as stupid fundies while ignoring the Islamic ones is extremely hypocritical.  

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Being opposed to islam is necessary though since it's an authoritarian system opposed to western liberal culture. Like nazism and communism. Just as there isn't naziphobia or communiphobia there is no such thing as Islamophobia.
It's a word invented to shut down criticism of that ideology. And it's working given how many people fall for that nonsense.

Yes, keep repeating it and shift  reality, thats the way it works.

Keep being in denial about the fact that you already surrendered. Soumission.

[Josquius]

I'm presenting it as a common belief, held by religious authority, that Muslims are required to kill the Jews before the end of days

this is not the case.
Those who try to present their anti semitism in this way are rubbish Muslims.

To decry Christian supporters of Israel as stupid fundies while ignoring the Islamic ones is extremely hypocritical.   

Nobody is doing that. We all agree Hamas are bad guys. Pretty sure we are all on the same page that Qatar isn't great either.

uote author=Josquius
 
Keep being in denial about the fact that you already surrendered. Soumission.

Ironic considering you're the one who has been hoodwinked by the elites misdirection and meekly fallen into line repeating the lines they want working people to repeat.
I continue to be outspoken against this.

[Razgovory]

this is not the case.
Those who try to present their anti semitism in this way are rubbish Muslims.

This is no True Scott's Man.  There are plenty of Muslims, hundreds of millions who do this.  Why should I take your word on what being a good Muslim is over Islamic leaders in Islamic countries.

Nobody is doing that. We all agree Hamas are bad guys. Pretty sure we are all on the same page that Qatar isn't great either.

But you do do it.  These beliefs are were not made up by Hamas, or the Qataris.  You say things about Christian Fundies that you wouldn't say about Muslim ones.  You do it because Muslims are labeled as marginalized and you don't want to punch down.  I used to do it as well, but have since come to the conclusion that such behavior is simply bigoted.  You say that agree that Hamas are the bad guys, but you still want to give them victory.  As soon as the Israelis withdraw, Hamas will come out of their hidey-holes, put on their uniforms and celebrate.  And then they will go back to preparing for war and we will go through this all over again.

[grumbler]

Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.

Do your homework and try again.

[Zoupa]

Quite the contrary, they've been remarkably successful.  They were very successful in derailing the peace plan in the 1990's, and their propaganda arm has been very successful in West.

What else happened in the 90s that derailed the peace plan?

[Razgovory]

Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.

Do your homework and try again.

For Muslims, hadiths are among the sources through which they come to understand the practice of Muhammad and his Muslim community (ummah). As such, they constitute an important source, second only to the Qurʾān, for law, ritual, and creed.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hadith

[Razgovory]

Quite the contrary, they've been remarkably successful.  They were very successful in derailing the peace plan in the 1990's, and their propaganda arm has been very successful in West.

What else happened in the 90s that derailed the peace plan?

The people at Camp David put their finger squarely on Yasser Arafat.

[Zoupa]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

[Razgovory]

Anything else? In 1995 perhaps?

Peace in the Middle East was not contingent on the life of one man.

[grumbler]

Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.

Do your homework and try again.

For Muslims, hadiths are among the sources through which they come to understand the practice of Muhammad and his Muslim community (ummah). As such, they constitute an important source, second only to the Qurʾān, for law, ritual, and creed.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hadith

Read what I wrote, read the Britannica article, and try again.