Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Being opposed to islam is necessary though since it's an authoritarian system opposed to western liberal culture. Like nazism and communism. Just as there isn't naziphobia or communiphobia there is no such thing as Islamophobia.
It's a word invented to shut down criticism of that ideology. And it's working given how many people fall for that nonsense.

Yes, keep repeating it and shift  reality, thats the way it works.

[Tamas]

With the really dedicated nazis sure.
But with the rank and file of the far right I expect that would take quite some building in much of the country where Jewish people are invisible if they exist at all.
I grew up not far from one of the major Haredi communities in Europe, and growing up I heard basically nothing about Jewish people outside of American media and WW2 history.

If we imagined anti-semitism was seen as just as acceptable as Islamophobia then I do still think they'd pick the Muslims as their preferred target over Jews.

Ironically no doubt the "OMG anti semitic left" stuff helps a lot too -  That's the enemy's belief so we automatically support the opposite.

Along with the Holocaust being such a key part of learning about the war.
Its not what Nazis were all about which annoys your typical British far right BNP sort about that label, its that it implies being German. They're really ironically obsessed with the war.

IDK this might be a cultural thing, I don't know of British antisemitism but in Hungary and Eastern Europe in general it was an integral part of culture and everyday discourse for centuries. It had a flare-up in Hungary at least from the early 90s right until post-9/11 when the Western nazi switch toward Muslims slowly took effect but it's been very obviously under the not-so-well hidden surface.

[celedhring]

Over here "direct" antisemitism has always been tempered by the fact that there are so few jews in Spain because REASONS. Harder to be racist to somebody when they aren't around. But our nazis always go the extra mile.

But it's always been a favorite boogeyman. Franco still made speeches alluding to a vast freemason-jewish conspiracy that kept Spain down. And it remained part of the culture, with a bunch of pejorative stereotypes and idioms.

Heck, Barcelona had a street commemorating a progrom* until just a few years ago.

*In our discharge, most people (including myself) were completely unaware what the street in question was alluding to, since it was rather oblique. But it had been brought up to the local authorities several times over the years until it was finally changed.

Muslims didn't get much better, mind. My granny lived in the street of the Moor Slayer (it also got changed).

[The Minsky Moment]

Well, all the fascists appear to be joining one side, so that's something I suppose.

Correct, the MAGA GOP.

[HVC]

I mean, when the inevitable collapse of mainstream support for Israel happens, it WILL be a green light for all the antisemites to start "speaking up"

There will still be a sizeable and powerful evangelical support for Israel. They get over 3 billion in military aid because of the wacky end of day cultists.

Why does the wacky end of day cultists against Israel not get mentioned?  They've been much more influential. 

I don't know what you're referring to? Do you think  white liberals are end of day cultists too? And if they're anti Israel why would they support military aid?

[Jacob]

Hamas' attack was a success in the end.

Only because the Israelis made it so.

The 911 attacks were similarly successful.

I'll note that the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin seems to have worked just spectacularly as well.

I'm forced to reluctantly conclude that terrorism works.

[grumbler]

Why does the wacky end of day cultists against Israel not get mentioned?  They've been much more influential. 

I don't know what you're referring to? Do you think  white liberals are end of day cultists too? And if they're anti Israel why would they support military aid?

That must be a Missouri thing. I am also unacquainted with it.

[Razgovory]

I mean, when the inevitable collapse of mainstream support for Israel happens, it WILL be a green light for all the antisemites to start "speaking up"

There will still be a sizeable and powerful evangelical support for Israel. They get over 3 billion in military aid because of the wacky end of day cultists.

Why does the wacky end of day cultists against Israel not get mentioned?  They've been much more influential. 

I don't know what you're referring to? Do you think  white liberals are end of day cultists too? And if they're anti Israel why would they support military aid?

The Islamic extremists.  They too have an end day prophecy they like to recite.

[HVC]

Not sure how you reconcile Islamic extremists as more influential then evangelicals in the US politics.

As for end of day cultists, if that's your threshhold then nearly every religion is. Hell even Buddhist and Hindus have a destruction phase in their cycles. Although in there case the cycle starts up again instead of people skipping up to heaven or being dragged  down to hell. However as far as I know theres no sizeable contingent in these  other religions that are actively trying to bring about the end of days like the evangelicals.

[Razgovory]

Not sure how you reconcile Islamic extremists as more influential then evangelicals in the US politics.

As for end of day cultists, if that's your threshhold then nearly every religion is. Hell even Buddhist and Hindus have a destruction phase in their cycles. Although in there case the cycle starts up again instead of people skipping up to heaven or being dragged  down to hell. However as far as I know theres no sizeable contingent in these  other religions that are actively trying to bring about the end of days like the evangelicals.

Remarkably this isn't just a US issue, there are other people involved.  What you are apparently ignorant of is the Hadith of stones and trees:

"The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews."

This is a massive factor, so much so that Hamas quoted it in their original charter.  When Muslims say that God has promised them victory over the Zionists, something you see quite often, even among Western Muslims, this is what they are talking about.  God's plan involves the genocide of the Jews, and end times can not come until this occurs.  This is a major reason why Palestinians refuse to make peace with Israel: Because they believe that they are ordered by God to massacre Jews.

The emphasis on American evangelicals in left-wing antizionists circles, because it reveals who they would like to be against.  It is less about Israel and Palestine but about thwarting culture war enemies.

[Josquius]

You've definitely been cribbing from certain Islamophobic sources there. This seems a popular one with a quick Google.

Worth noting Hamas are shit Muslims and that this verse is generally interpreted as just meaning soldiers. Genocide is haram (which yes. Doesn't stop the crazies much like in Christianity).

Also it's a prophecy. Not a command.

Islam just like Christianity has a long history of anti semitism, though very different and considerably less bad in nature.

Again though needs highlighting for the thousandth time. Hamas suck. Nobody here supports them at all. We all agree they're part of the problem in the area. This isn't a black and white topic.

[Razgovory]

You've definitely been cribbing from certain Islamophobic sources there. This seems a popular one with a quick Google.

Worth noting Hamas are shit Muslims and that this verse is generally interpreted as just meaning soldiers. Genocide is haram (which yes. Doesn't stop the crazies much like in Christianity).

Also it's a prophecy. Not a command.

Islam just like Christianity has a long history of anti semitism, though very different and considerably less bad in nature.

Again though needs highlighting for the thousandth time. Hamas suck. Nobody here supports them at all. We all agree they're part of the problem in the area. This isn't a black and white topic.

It is a requirement for the end times to occur.  It is not relegated to just Hamas either, it comes up rather frequently.  This is taught to children.  This is not worth defending Josq, anymore than the Christian antisemitism.

What makes you think it very different and "considerably less bad in nature" than Christian antisemitism by the way?

[crazy canuck]

Hamas' attack was a success in the end.

Only because the Israelis made it so.

The 911 attacks were similarly successful.

I'll note that the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin seems to have worked just spectacularly as well.

I'm forced to reluctantly conclude that terrorism works.

The purpose of terrorist acts has always been to provoke a response that meets their ends. They do not always succeed. But it can.  911 being, as you say, an example of that.

Hamas has historically been handled by Israel in a way that did not give Hamas success.  This Israeli government went off the rails in that regard.

[grumbler]

A Hadith is just an anecdote about Mohammed.  They contain no inherent religious authority, they were not inspired by Allah, and different sects and congregations of Muslims pay heed to different Hadiths and reject others.

The hadith in question was first promulgated in the Ninth Century, two hundred years after it was alleged to have been uttered.

[Razgovory]

A Hadith is just an anecdote about Mohammed.  They contain no inherent religious authority, they were not inspired by Allah, and different sects and congregations of Muslims pay heed to different Hadiths and reject others.

The hadith in question was first promulgated in the Ninth Century, two hundred years after it was alleged to have been uttered.

 Hadiths are considered religious authority by the majority of Muslims.