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Israel-Hamas War 2023

Started by Zanza, October 07, 2023, 04:56:14 AM

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Josquius

#4725
August 06, 2024, 12:30:05 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 06, 2024, 12:21:54 PM
Quote from: Josquius on August 06, 2024, 10:28:30 AMIt's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

Let's say you are right. What then? Does that mean Israel should disappear? Stay put when Hamas shoots rockets or raids their towns?
Does that mean New Yorkers deserved 9/11 because the US supported the Mujaheddin in the 80s?


And finally, why are Israelis the only ones with agency here?


I don't understand how you jump to these extreme conclusions. Obviously not.

Israel is the one with agency because they're
1: the only relevant answer really. They're the ones we are talking about here. Any other actors in Hamas'rise to power are irrelevant when the question is did Israel play a role in supporting Hamas' rise.
2: more broadly we shouldn't forget they are the ones with all the power when it comes to what enters Gaza (with a hint of Egypt)
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Valmy

#4726
August 06, 2024, 12:33:06 PM Last Edit: August 06, 2024, 12:34:55 PM by Valmy
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2024, 12:02:53 PMThey couldn't keep them in check in Gaza.  Armed convoys of PA fighters moving through Israel meet armed convoys of Hamas fighters.  I can see how that wouldn't be in Israel's best interest.

PA fighting Hamas seems in Israel's best interests to me. But you do you.

Also yes they lost in Gaza. But I wasn't talking about Gaza. Besides keeping the PA out of Gaza would make it harder for them to reverse that.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

#4727
August 06, 2024, 12:58:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 06, 2024, 12:18:44 PMHow would armed Hamas convoys be moving through Israel? Wouldn't the IDF have something to say about that?
If Fatah can move through Israel, why not Hamas?  As Josq said 

QuoteOr just not apply different standards to Hamas and to the Palestinian government.
To allow the Palestinians to transfer between parts of their territory.

I really don't see a situation where Israel lets a hostile military force transit through their country.  Lithuania doesn't let Russians transit across their country.  Cause that would be stupid.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Josquius

#4728
August 06, 2024, 01:05:48 PM Last Edit: August 06, 2024, 01:13:13 PM by Josquius
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2024, 12:58:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 06, 2024, 12:18:44 PMHow would armed Hamas convoys be moving through Israel? Wouldn't the IDF have something to say about that?
If Fatah can move through Israel, why not Hamas?  As Josq said



QuoteOr just not apply different standards to Hamas and to the Palestinian government.
To allow the Palestinians to transfer between parts of their territory.

Neither Fatah or Hamas should be able to.
The PA however, as the legitimate government, should. 

Interesting you're suddenly for equal treatment here but not with the other key problem.
QuoteI really don't see a situation where Israel lets a hostile military force transit through their country.  Lithuania doesn't let Russians transit across their country.  Cause that would be stupid.

You might want to recheck your facts there.
Things have changed since the ukraine invasion but historically Russia has had extensive transit rights to Kaliningrad.

I note you're really going in for extremes here. Assuming the Palestinians have the right to transfer police between the two halves of their country means it's a complete free for all.
There's far more moderate ways to do this where for instance requests must be submitted first and the forces are disarmed and transported under escort.
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Razgovory

#4729
August 06, 2024, 01:11:08 PM
Russia doesn't have military transit rights across Lithuania. You really think Palestinians are going to let Israelis disarm them?  Will, Hamas get to transit across Israel as well as your post indicated?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#4730
August 06, 2024, 01:11:52 PM
How do the Palestinians do anything without agency?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

PJL

#4731
August 06, 2024, 01:21:28 PM
Russia has transit rights on the Lithuanian - Polish border IIRC.

Razgovory

#4732
August 06, 2024, 01:27:21 PM
Military transit rights?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

OttoVonBismarck

#4733
August 06, 2024, 01:28:34 PM
Russia doesn't have military transit rights or a military corridor into Kaliningrad, they pushed for one in the 90s after the USSR collapsed, but Lithuania rebuffed them.

They do have a longstanding transit agreement for road and rail travel, I believe after the 2022 invasion of Ukraine they now can only use the road connection to transit goods that aren't under EU sanction, which the EU clarified only applies to road and not rail transit. So the rail connection is still fully unrestricted, but any road freight is subject to Lithuanian customs and if carrying prohibited goods can be turned back.

This was the cause of a big brouhaha earlier in the war, but when the EU "clarified" their sanctions regime didn't apply to rail transit Russia largely quit crying about it.

Josquius

#4734
August 06, 2024, 01:28:35 PM Last Edit: August 06, 2024, 01:30:07 PM by Josquius
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2024, 01:11:08 PMRussia doesn't have military transit rights across Lithuania. You really think Palestinians are going to let Israelis disarm them?  Will, Hamas get to transit across Israel as well as your post indicated?
I never indicated that at all.  Seriously stop this delusional nonsense.

I don't see why the PA would object to letting the Israelis put their entirely legal arms in storage for the drive across to gaza.

Russia having access rights to Kaliningrad is well known. The way this has been hit in recent years has been reported a fair bit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_transit_to_Kaliningrad_Oblast

https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1143876/russia-s-military-corridor-in-lithuania-that-never-was
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Razgovory

#4735
August 06, 2024, 01:33:33 PM
Cause the PA doesn't like or trust the Israelis?  The PA would not be able to put down Hamas with police weapons.  They would need heavier ordnance then just pistols.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

#4736
August 06, 2024, 01:55:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2024, 12:58:10 PMIf Fatah can move through Israel, why not Hamas? 

I can't believe that you are asking such dumb questions.  Fatah is not the PA, nor is Hamas recognized by the Israeli government.

The PA is not at war with Israel and the Israeli decision to prevent the PA from maintaining its control over Gaza was a purely political decision.  The Israeli government calculated that splitting the Palestinian-controlled territories would make it easier for Israel to continue to implement its settlement policies on the West Bank.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

#4737
August 06, 2024, 01:55:59 PM
The PA was shooting at Israelis not long before this happened.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

#4738
August 06, 2024, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2024, 01:55:59 PMThe PA was shooting at Israelis not long before this happened.

Well exactly what I was getting at. It seems obvious to us here in the US that the PA should be the ones who defeat Hamas. But the PA is an enemy of Israel, I can see why the Israelis are not excited about helping them even when the alternative is Hamas. But I still think they should anyway. Obviously Netanyahu and company disagree.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

grumbler

#4739
August 06, 2024, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2024, 01:55:59 PMThe PA was shooting at Israelis not long before this happened.

Cite?
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!
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