Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

Like literally anyone can say they are "Hamas", that isn't what anyone is talking about, they are talking about operational Hamas as it existed on 10-7 and perpetrated the attack. Not "any random group of evil Muslims waving the Hamas flag."

So Israel can keep killing Palestinians because there will be a Hamas.

Hamas today is not the same Hamas as in 1987.

And it only exists because Israel made it so.  Without Israel's past and recent help, it would never have come to be.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Okay viper, do you ever get tired of reposting the same well debunked claim that Israel "made Hamas"? Like we've gone over this multiple times in this thread.

[Valmy]

I mean I do think it is an issue that the main forces that could take down Hamas are also groups that are very hostile to Israel like the PLA. Israel wasn't going to help the PLA take Gaza back.

But, of course, nobody forced the Palestinians to put Hamas in power in 2006.

[Josquius]

Okay viper, do you ever get tired of reposting the same well debunked claim that Israel "made Hamas"? Like we've gone over this multiple times in this thread.

It's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

[Tamas]

Okay viper, do you ever get tired of reposting the same well debunked claim that Israel "made Hamas"? Like we've gone over this multiple times in this thread.

It's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

So when Israel doesn't send the tanks in to stop Hamas, that's bad. When Israel sends in the tanks to stop Hamas, that's also bad.

Gotcha'

[OttoVonBismarck]

Okay viper, do you ever get tired of reposting the same well debunked claim that Israel "made Hamas"? Like we've gone over this multiple times in this thread.

It's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

I mean, it has been addressed? Largely that Israeli support for Hamas is both distorted and exaggerated. I posted about it last year for sure.

In the 80s Israel actively supported Hamas, but at the time it was an Islamist "civil society" group, it did not espouse violence. Hamas was revealed to have been covertly building a terror arm and was linked to bombings in the later 1980s, at which point Israel blacklisted them and quit directly aiding them.

Since that time Israel's "aid" to Hamas has been in the form of:

1. Not going in with the IDF to remove them from power in 2008 to reinstate Fatah's PA, which isn't the same as "supporting" Hamas, and the international community and the josq's and viper's of the world would be foaming at the mouth crying if Israel had attempted to re-impose PA rule over Gaza back then.

2. Allowing various entities to send resources to Hamas through channels Israel could have blocked (for example Qatar's funding, some of the funding for the PA etc.)

It is true the Netanyahu coalition largely saw the division of Palestinians into two political camps as being to their benefit, but "not cutting off all aid and financing to Gaza for 15 years" is not the same thing as "making Hamas."

[Josquius]

"Distorted and exaggerated" you say.
It's debatable to what level it happened. But that it happened is pretty certain.

Claim Israel created Hamas from nothing and it's entirely their beast and you're talking nonsense.
Likewise claim Israel is totally innocent in Hamas' rise to power then you're also talking crap.

Israel has been perfectly happy with the situation in Gaza - until the inevitable happened and they tried to heavily strike back... And Israel completely messed up in handling the immediate attack and the aftermath.

Okay viper, do you ever get tired of reposting the same well debunked claim that Israel "made Hamas"? Like we've gone over this multiple times in this thread.

It's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

So when Israel doesn't send the tanks in to stop Hamas, that's bad. When Israel sends in the tanks to stop Hamas, that's also bad.

Gotcha'

Or just not apply different standards to Hamas and to the Palestinian government.
To allow the Palestinians to transfer between parts of their territory.

[Valmy]

So when Israel doesn't send the tanks in to stop Hamas, that's bad. When Israel sends in the tanks to stop Hamas, that's also bad.

Gotcha'

Well the civilian casualties seem very extensive and naturally that is upsetting.

If this was in the process of scoring absolute victory in a week or so and Hamas and Gaza was about to surrender and a peace deal was about to worked out then I think people could accept it with a moderate amount of despair, but as this is one of these interminable modern conflicts that is almost certain to stretch on for decades it is hard to see. So I get why people have such a negative response to it.

And hell this stupid ass thing may spread back to Lebanon and beyond again. 

[grumbler]

Okay viper, do you ever get tired of reposting the same well debunked claim that Israel "made Hamas"? Like we've gone over this multiple times in this thread.

It's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

So when Israel doesn't send the tanks in to stop Hamas, that's bad. When Israel sends in the tanks to stop Hamas, that's also bad.

Gotcha'

So when the Israelis refuse to allow the PA to reinforce its positions in Gaza during the Hamas-adjacent coup, it wasn't benefiting Hamas, and when Israel doesn't send tanks to stop Hamas, it wasn't benefiting Hamas.

Gotcha'

[Razgovory]

If the Palestinians can move between Gaza and the West Bank that means Hamas can move between Gaza and the West Bank.  I don't see how that helps.

[OttoVonBismarck]

PA also has never had a functioning military, they have a more police-like security force. And in EU terms they don't have military access between their holdings in the West Bank and Gaza, since Israel hasn't granted it to them (nor should they.)

[Valmy]

If the Palestinians can move between Gaza and the West Bank that means Hamas can move between Gaza and the West Bank.  I don't see how that helps.

Hamas has tons of support in the West Bank. They don't even need to move.

But the PA keeps them in check, and that is the whole point.

[Razgovory]

They couldn't keep them in check in Gaza.  Armed convoys of PA fighters moving through Israel meet armed convoys of Hamas fighters.  I can see how that wouldn't be in Israel's best interest.

[Jacob]

How would armed Hamas convoys be moving through Israel? Wouldn't the IDF have something to say about that?

[Iormlund]

It's been mentioned many times but nobody has even attempted to argue against the facts that Israel supported Hamas to some level, at the least looked the other way and let it do things it would never have let Fatah do (letting through foreign funding for instance) , seeing it as a great weapon to divide the Palestinians.

Let's say you are right. What then? Does that mean Israel should disappear? Stay put when Hamas shoots rockets or raids their towns?
Does that mean New Yorkers deserved 9/11 because the US supported the Mujaheddin in the 80s?


And finally, why are Israelis the only ones with agency here?