Israel-Hamas War 2023

[garbon]

Odd brush given Britain's own struggles.

Huh?
Starmer being married to a Jewish woman has never been an issue.
Miliband being Jewish was only made a bit of an issue with the bacon sandwich silliness.

I clearly meant around people being Jewish. Labour definitely has had issues with anti-semitism.

[Josquius]

Odd brush given Britain's own struggles.

Huh?
Starmer being married to a Jewish woman has never been an issue.
Miliband being Jewish was only made a bit of an issue with the bacon sandwich silliness.

I clearly meant around people being Jewish. Labour definitely has had issues with anti-semitism.

I have no idea what you mean. I talked about Labours recent leaders with Jewish links. It wasnt an issue.

Labours anti semitism stuff was something completely different. That was about not handling anti semitism in the party properly. Not people refusing to vote for a Jewish leader.

[Josquius]

I'm not sad enough to trawl back through the thread for a gotcha... But pretty sure that was your position. Glad you've moderated.

[The Minsky Moment]

Literally no one has said there is a goal to remove everyone tangentially involved in Hamas

I believe what I said above was that it would not be politically feasible for an Israeli government to agree to a peace that left Hamas with a continuing governing role in Gaza.

[crazy canuck]

Literally no one has said there is a goal to remove everyone tangentially involved in Hamas

I believe what I said above was that it would not be politically feasible for an Israeli government to agree to a peace that left Hamas with a continuing governing role in Gaza.

Yes, and how is anyone going to ensure that no one associated with Hamas has a role governing Gaza?

To expand on that thought.  Israel would have to occupy Gaza or be in a state of constant war to ensure an terrorist organization like Hamas doesn't just fill the void or stop Hamas itself from establishing itself again.

[Razgovory]

You can put the Hamas members in a big camp, like they did with ISIS members.

[crazy canuck]

You can put the Hamas members in a big camp, like they did with ISIS members.

Some, sure. But the thing about terrorist organizations is they are not exactly wearing name tags.

[Razgovory]

You can put the Hamas members in a big camp, like they did with ISIS members.

Some, sure. But the thing about terrorist organizations is they are not exactly wearing name tags.

They have pay rolls.

[crazy canuck]

You can put the Hamas members in a big camp, like they did with ISIS members.

Some, sure. But the thing about terrorist organizations is they are not exactly wearing name tags.

They have pay rolls.

Ok, but I am not sure Hamas will submit their records for audit.

[Razgovory]

That's the great thing about taking over Gaza.  They can capture the documents.

[Josquius]

Let's not forget Hamas are just the biggest and most powerful group.
Also taking part in the attack were a myriad of other groups, some worse than Hamas, to varying extents.
A better solution is needed than expecting a victory in ww2 analogue.

[Iormlund]

Literally no one has said there is a goal to remove everyone tangentially involved in Hamas

I believe what I said above was that it would not be politically feasible for an Israeli government to agree to a peace that left Hamas with a continuing governing role in Gaza.

That was me. And I don't get your point.

You don't have to kill half the population to deny Hamas the government and its resources. You just have to occupy it, as it was done for decades.
Once Hamas is underground no Oct 7 attacks are possible and the number of smuggled/made rockets should go down significantly.

[crazy canuck]

That's the great thing about taking over Gaza.  They can capture the documents.

Right, and so you are conceding the scenario I suggested, which is ongoing occupation is what would have to happen.

But even so, there is some small chance that Hamas is sophisticated enough not to keep records where the Israelis can find them.  I have been having this conversation with you tongue in cheek.  And I hope you are too.  You are not serious about Hamas keeping good records available for audit, right?

[Admiral Yi]

I gather his strong support for zionism is rather more of an issue.

Who are you talking about?

[Barrister]

Is this no money for governers thing a concern? It sounds weird and potentially a bit of a hindrance?

Though shapiro makes sense. Pennsylvsnia is the key one to lock down right?

It's a very large, very swing, state.  So no single state is essential, but PA is important.

The knock against Shapiro as I understand it though is that he is, well, Jewish.  And the activist left of the Democratic Party is very much on the pro-Palestinian side of things in the Middle East.

Now worth noting that Harris' husband is also Jewish, even though Harris herself is not.

America is a weird place. But do many really care that much about someone being Jewish?
Seems very weird to state people are pro Palestinian as meaning they're anti Jewish.
I gather his strong support for zionism is rather more of an issue.

Jos, you can't possibly be this ignorant or stupid.

Yes - one can be "anti-zionist" without being "anti-semitic".

But put it in a Venn diagram and there's a hell of a lot of overlap between those two categories.

This shouldn't surprise you, but maybe it will - a large majority of jewish people are zionists.  Not 100% for sure - but a lot of them, even those that don't live in Israel.

I mean in those pro-Palestine/pro-Hamas protests from earlier this year you saw an awful lot of grafitti/vandalism of synagogues or jewish-owned businesses - ones that had nothing to do with Israel, just because they're jewish.

So hence my concern.  Now Harris has definitely been tacking hard to the centre right now (turns out there's an advantage to not having to go through a primary).  She's positioning herself as pro-cop, pro-border control.  She has denounced some anti-Israel protestors.  So maybe she won't care about Shapiro being jewish.  I mean - her own husband is jewish so maybe just lean into it.  But she might also want to not pick a fight with that portion of the activist left if she can avoid it.