Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Barrister]

I don't think it is politically feasible for any Israeli government to agree to a resolution that leaves Hamas in charge of Gaza.  It would be like America agreeing to a truce in 2002 where al-Qaeda occupied Mexico and Bin Laden controlled the Mexican state. 

Hamas broke a truce and murdered hundreds of civilians. No cease fire agreement or truce with them is worth the paper it is written on; Hamas will break it without compunction the instant they believe it be convenient to do so.

I never would have thought that the US would agree to a resolution that would leave the Taliban in control of Afghanistan, yet here we are...

[The Minsky Moment]

I never would have thought that the US would agree to a resolution that would leave the Taliban in control of Afghanistan, yet here we are...

If the Taliban had crossed the (non-existent) border with California and murdered thousands of Americans, then they wouldn't be in control of anything. They would not exist anymore as a meaningful organization.

[Barrister]

I never would have thought that the US would agree to a resolution that would leave the Taliban in control of Afghanistan, yet here we are...

If the Taliban had crossed the (non-existent) border with California and murdered thousands of Americans, then they wouldn't be in control of anything. They would not exist anymore as a meaningful organization.

Seriously Joan?

The Taliban aided and abetted the murder of thousands of Americans on 9/11.  Yet the USA reached a peace agreement with them (as bad an idea as that was).

I thought I was just making a funny quip.  I don't think Israel should make a truce with Hamas.  But to pretend that such a truce is impossible and will never happen is just ignorant of history.

[Jacob]

It did take more than a decade to get there.

I imagine if Israel occupies Gaza for ten years, continuously bleeding money and lives to maintain the occupation - with no signs of improvement - it might end up accepting some sort of truce that leaves Hamas in control.

But I think from an Israeli POV it's much too soon.

[Norgy]

The Taliban and the Hamas share at least one feature, they are creatures made from foreign intelligence agencies and oil wealth.

Oh. And one more thing. Norway has diplomacy going with both. 
Sometimes it hurts being Norwegian. I mean, outside of football.

[Barrister]

The Taliban and the Hamas share at least one feature, they are creatures made from foreign intelligence agencies and oil wealth.

Oh. And one more thing. Norway has diplomacy going with both. 
Sometimes it hurts being Norwegian. I mean, outside of football.

I hear you - being Canadian I mean.



In case this image isn't clear.  The vessel in the foreground is the Canadian HMCS Margaret Brooke.  The port is Havana, Cuba.  The vessels in the background are the Russian submarine Kazan and the Russian frigate Admiral Gorshkov.  Yup - our government decided to send a RCN vessel to visit communist Cuba at the same time as the Russians were in town.

I'm mostly pretty proud to be Canadian, but sometimes I'm so fucking embarrassed by my country.

[Iormlund]

Seriously Joan?

The Taliban aided and abetted the murder of thousands of Americans on 9/11.  Yet the USA reached a peace agreement with them (as bad an idea as that was).

I thought I was just making a funny quip.  I don't think Israel should make a truce with Hamas.  But to pretend that such a truce is impossible and will never happen is just ignorant of history.

The Taliban of today are an entirely different beast. They seem to have understood that harboring international terrorists is bad for business.

It probably helps that pretty much everyone involved in what happened back then is dead.

[Razgovory]

Not that different, we killed the top guy in Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan after we left.

[Barrister]

Seriously Joan?

The Taliban aided and abetted the murder of thousands of Americans on 9/11.  Yet the USA reached a peace agreement with them (as bad an idea as that was).

I thought I was just making a funny quip.  I don't think Israel should make a truce with Hamas.  But to pretend that such a truce is impossible and will never happen is just ignorant of history.

The Taliban of today are an entirely different beast. They seem to have understood that harboring international terrorists is bad for business.

It probably helps that pretty much everyone involved in what happened back then is dead.

Totally disagree they're an "entirely different beast".  Women are still prohibited from going to school.  It's only a matter of time before they start blowing up more historical statues.

I mean yes - they no longer see it in their interest to overtly host international terrorists, but that's a purely tactical decision on their part, not a change of heart.

[Grey Fox]

The Taliban and the Hamas share at least one feature, they are creatures made from foreign intelligence agencies and oil wealth.

Oh. And one more thing. Norway has diplomacy going with both. 
Sometimes it hurts being Norwegian. I mean, outside of football.

I hear you - being Canadian I mean.



In case this image isn't clear.  The vessel in the foreground is the Canadian HMCS Margaret Brooke.  The port is Havana, Cuba.  The vessels in the background are the Russian submarine Kazan and the Russian frigate Admiral Gorshkov.  Yup - our government decided to send a RCN vessel to visit communist Cuba at the same time as the Russians were in town.

I'm mostly pretty proud to be Canadian, but sometimes I'm so fucking embarrassed by my country.

Why was it embarrassing? It was a good idea to show the Russian they don't get to go to Cuba without NATO noticing and sending a US vessel wasn't possible. (They went to Guantanamo base instead)

The Russian ships were accompanied by their customary flagship tugboat & if iirc one of them broke down upon leaving. Now, that's embarrassing.

[Iormlund]

Totally disagree they're an "entirely different beast".  Women are still prohibited from going to school.  It's only a matter of time before they start blowing up more historical statues.

I mean yes - they no longer see it in their interest to overtly host international terrorists, but that's a purely tactical decision on their part, not a change of heart.

That's precisely what I meant.

Of course they are still ruthless fanatics. But that's something the West can live with, as long as it doesn't directly affect us. And they know it.

Whether they maintain that pragmatic attitude remains a question. But given how controlling Afghanistan is basically impossible, it is probably a sound avenue to explore.

Gaza, OTOH, is much, much smaller. And controllable. Not for free, of course. But Israel occupied it for decades before the withdrawal.
And Hamas of course is the same as it was a year ago. Nothing has changed there. Their objective is still the destruction of Israel.

[crazy canuck]

I never would have thought that the US would agree to a resolution that would leave the Taliban in control of Afghanistan, yet here we are...

If the Taliban had crossed the (non-existent) border with California and murdered thousands of Americans, then they wouldn't be in control of anything. They would not exist anymore as a meaningful organization.

And yet they did murder thousands of Americans in American soil and they continue to exist.

What I think you are getting at is geographical proximity.  But I am not sure that makes sense either given the proximity of other enemies of Israel.

[Barrister]

Why was it embarrassing? It was a good idea to show the Russian they don't get to go to Cuba without NATO noticing and sending a US vessel wasn't possible. (They went to Guantanamo base instead)

The Russian ships were accompanied by their customary flagship tugboat & if iirc one of them broke down upon leaving. Now, that's embarrassing.

There was no question that NATO noticed the Russian vessels going to Cuba - given how close Cuba is to the US.

We certainly didn't need to sent a Canadian vessel as a guest of Cuba to "notice" the Russian vessels.

[Jacob]

I also don't understand why it's embarrassing, Beeb. Can you elaborate?

[The Minsky Moment]

CC, BB: The Taliban didn't murder thousands of Americans. Not sure where that comes from.  The Taliban killed American troops in Afghanistan but that is not the same thing. The Taliban provided sanctuary to the organization responsible for 9/11. But that is also not the same thing.  There isn't a perfect analogy for the role of Taliban in 9/11 and what happened in Gaza.  But as an example, Qatar provides sanctuary, financial support, and refuge for Hamas leaders and gives them access to diplomatic assets and media. Yet Israel is not hostile to Qatar and has sought diplomatic engagement with them.