Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

Is this no money for governers thing a concern? It sounds weird and potentially a bit of a hindrance?

Though shapiro makes sense. Pennsylvsnia is the key one to lock down right?

It's a very large, very swing, state.  So no single state is essential, but PA is important.

The knock against Shapiro as I understand it though is that he is, well, Jewish.  And the activist left of the Democratic Party is very much on the pro-Palestinian side of things in the Middle East.

Now worth noting that Harris' husband is also Jewish, even though Harris herself is not.

America is a weird place. But do many really care that much about someone being Jewish?
Seems very weird to state people are pro Palestinian as meaning they're anti Jewish.
I gather his strong support for zionism is rather more of an issue.

Jos, you can't possibly be this ignorant or stupid.

Yes - one can be "anti-zionist" without being "anti-semitic".

But put it in a Venn diagram and there's a hell of a lot of overlap between those two categories.

This shouldn't surprise you, but maybe it will - a large majority of jewish people are zionists.  Not 100% for sure - but a lot of them, even those that don't live in Israel.

I mean in those pro-Palestine/pro-Hamas protests from earlier this year you saw an awful lot of grafitti/vandalism of synagogues or jewish-owned businesses - ones that had nothing to do with Israel, just because they're jewish.

So hence my concern.  Now Harris has definitely been tacking hard to the centre right now (turns out there's an advantage to not having to go through a primary).  She's positioning herself as pro-cop, pro-border control.  She has denounced some anti-Israel protestors.  So maybe she won't care about Shapiro being jewish.  I mean - her own husband is jewish so maybe just lean into it.  But she might also want to not pick a fight with that portion of the activist left if she can avoid it.

I read a piece in the NYTimes saying essentially this.  And the writer made the point that she will probably get more net votes by pissing off the Pro-Palestinian left and gaining the centrist Haley supporters.  Besides it's unlikely the Democratic left is going to vote Trump.

[Josquius]

Is this no money for governers thing a concern? It sounds weird and potentially a bit of a hindrance?

Though shapiro makes sense. Pennsylvsnia is the key one to lock down right?

It's a very large, very swing, state.  So no single state is essential, but PA is important.

The knock against Shapiro as I understand it though is that he is, well, Jewish.  And the activist left of the Democratic Party is very much on the pro-Palestinian side of things in the Middle East.

Now worth noting that Harris' husband is also Jewish, even though Harris herself is not.

America is a weird place. But do many really care that much about someone being Jewish?
Seems very weird to state people are pro Palestinian as meaning they're anti Jewish.
I gather his strong support for zionism is rather more of an issue.

Jos, you can't possibly be this ignorant or stupid.

Yes - one can be "anti-zionist" without being "anti-semitic".

But put it in a Venn diagram and there's a hell of a lot of overlap between those two categories.

This shouldn't surprise you, but maybe it will - a large majority of jewish people are zionists.  Not 100% for sure - but a lot of them, even those that don't live in Israel.

I mean in those pro-Palestine/pro-Hamas protests from earlier this year you saw an awful lot of grafitti/vandalism of synagogues or jewish-owned businesses - ones that had nothing to do with Israel, just because they're jewish.

So hence my concern.  Now Harris has definitely been tacking hard to the centre right now (turns out there's an advantage to not having to go through a primary).  She's positioning herself as pro-cop, pro-border control.  She has denounced some anti-Israel protestors.  So maybe she won't care about Shapiro being jewish.  I mean - her own husband is jewish so maybe just lean into it.  But she might also want to not pick a fight with that portion of the activist left if she can avoid it.

You're the one being pretty fucking stupid here.

Many many people are not particularly fond of zionism whilst having zero issues whatsoever with Jewish people
This "omfg you criticised Israel you anti semite" bollocks is nothing but a tired old rightist smear.
What about all those Jewish creatives who signed a petition condemning Israel? Are they anti semites?

Focus in on the anti semites then yep. Their Venn diagram is basically swallowed up by those who are anti zionist.
But look at the anti zionists and the anti semites aren't the majority at all. There's plenty of reasons to dislike the Israeli far right other than "Jooz".

As I said America is America. Maybe things are very different there. But concern about pissing off the minority who take anti zionism really seriously and have let it grow into a general anti semitism... Not really something any serious politician should be worrying about on a national level.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I see a lot of the Hamastans in this thread spewing out nonsense arguments and false narratives, I can only conclude it is because they are upset that realization is setting in--Hamas is not going to win, Israel is not going to be destroyed. The evil Muslim terrorists who make up the vast majority of the Palestinian population are not going to get what they want, and Israel is going to come out of this stronger than ever.

[Barrister]

You're the one being pretty fucking stupid here.

Many many people are not particularly fond of zionism whilst having zero issues whatsoever with Jewish people
This "omfg you criticised Israel you anti semite" bollocks is nothing but a tired old rightist smear.
What about all those Jewish creatives who signed a petition condemning Israel? Are they anti semites?

Focus in on the anti semites then yep. Their Venn diagram is basically swallowed up by those who are anti zionist.
But look at the anti zionists and the anti semites aren't the majority at all. There's plenty of reasons to dislike the Israeli far right other than "Jooz".

As I said America is America. Maybe things are very different there. But concern about pissing off the minority who take anti zionism really seriously and have let it grow into a general anti semitism... Not really something any serious politician should be worrying about on a national level.

Jos, I'm not calling you anti-semitic.  I can't read your heart, so perhaps you are that person who hates Israel but loves jewish people.

But you're fucking crazy if you can't realize that anti-semitism is a huge motivation behind so-called "anti-zionism".

It's like all those "Lost cause" defenders in the US South who want to talk about "states rights", but when you dig down just a really tiny amount you realize they just don't like darkies.

[Barrister]

I see a lot of the Hamastans in this thread spewing out nonsense arguments and false narratives, I can only conclude it is because they are upset that realization is setting in--Hamas is not going to win, Israel is not going to be destroyed. The evil Muslim terrorists who make up the vast majority of the Palestinian population are not going to get what they want, and Israel is going to come out of this stronger than ever.

1.  Why isn't Harris going to win, I just went through - the race is a total jump ball at this point.

2. Israel is not going to be destroyed.  Not anytime soon at least (thank goodness).

3. Israel stronger than ever?  That's the big unknown.  Netanyahu has not exactly rallied the world community to his side, never mind the Israeli population itself.  It's not impossible to imagine that Israel comes out of this weaker, not stronger.  Now that's not a prediction - it's just an unknown.

[Razgovory]

That's the great thing about taking over Gaza.  They can capture the documents.

Right, and so you are conceding the scenario I suggested, which is ongoing occupation is what would have to happen.

But even so, there is some small chance that Hamas is sophisticated enough not to keep records where the Israelis can find them.  I have been having this conversation with you tongue in cheek.  And I hope you are too.  You are not serious about Hamas keeping good records available for audit, right?

This isn't some gang of disaffected youth, they are a government.  They have assets in excess of 500 million dollars, large stockpiles of weapons.  They run the courts, the hospitals, the mail etc.  They need to keep records to do all of that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The fact people like CC know so little about the region is interesting given that doesn't stop him from spewing out his bad opinions.

When Hamas took over the strip there was an established PA civil service and bureaucracy, which continued to operate basically until the strip was bombed into anarchy this year. The Hamas militant wing is not the same thing as its bureaucrats.

[Josquius]

Jos, I'm not calling you anti-semitic.  I can't read your heart, so perhaps you are that person who hates Israel but loves jewish people.

But you're fucking crazy if you can't realize that anti-semitism is a huge motivation behind so-called "anti-zionism".

It's like all those "Lost cause" defenders in the US South who want to talk about "states rights", but when you dig down just a really tiny amount you realize they just don't like darkies.

It's weird but you seem to actually believe this despite it usually being nothing but a bad faith smear.

The zionists are hard right, Jewish-supremacist scum bags actively pushing for the seizure of land owned by their neighbours.

I'm sure many people do start from a place of Jews =bad and dislike zionism because it places their hated group on top.

But for myself and many many others it's the supremacist part of the equation we find issue with. Not the Jewish part.
Exactly the same views we would have if they were anything else - supremacist.
Thinking one group should have more rights than another and has the right to steal land from its neighbour... That's something that is consistently bad no matter whether it's Israel, Russia, Azerbaijan, China, etc...

Focusing only on those for whom the Jewish part is the primary motivator and insisting they represent anyone who has a bad word to say about Israeli policy is simply dishonest. Yet out it comes time and again. Can't be arguing in good faith with those who point out the situation in Palestine is crap.

[Razgovory]

If the supremacist thing is wrong why support explicitly Arab supremist like Fatah?  Why not call out the Arabists?  Palestinian nationalism was built on premise that Arabs should be supreme, and any refugees that come to Palestine should be killed.  Do you not call them out because dishonest people will call you racist or an Islamophobe if you do?

[Zoupa]

Why do you care so much Jos? I've washed my hands of the whole thing a decade ago. Both sides are fucking terrible in different ways.

[Josquius]

If the supremacist thing is wrong why support explicitly Arab supremist like Fatah?  Why not call out the Arabists?  Palestinian nationalism was built on premise that Arabs should be supreme, and any refugees that come to Palestine should be killed.  Do you not call them out because dishonest people will call you racist or an Islamophobe if you do?

Why do you care so much about a white supremacist in the running to rule the country when there's this black guy always hanging around my local town who says exactly the same sort of thing but from a position of how black people should be on top?

Why do you care so much Jos? I've washed my hands of the whole thing a decade ago. Both sides are fucking terrible in different ways.

I don't. In the list of issues in the world I care about it's not particularly up there.
It's sad and horrible but fairly small scale.
It is what is being discussed however and something I do care a lot about is disinformation and lies.

[Josquius]

Learn to read... He didn't argue they don't keep records. He said completely the opposite. Theyre smart enough not to keep them somewhere Israel can easily get them.
Given the amount of corruption going on and money being funneled off for dodgy purposes too...

[Sophie Scholl]

Ugh. I thought we had Israel/Palestine quarantined in its own topic, but it keeps leaking out.   

[Razgovory]

If the supremacist thing is wrong why support explicitly Arab supremist like Fatah?  Why not call out the Arabists?  Palestinian nationalism was built on premise that Arabs should be supreme, and any refugees that come to Palestine should be killed.  Do you not call them out because dishonest people will call you racist or an Islamophobe if you do?

Why do you care so much about a white supremacist in the running to rule the country when there's this black guy always hanging around my local town who says exactly the same sort of thing but from a position of how black people should be on top?

This is stupid, hypocritical and downright evil reasoning.  I see it quite a bit among the left these days unfortunately.  It doesn't matter what you say or think or do, what matters is if your ethnic group is disadvantaged or not.  It's implicit permission for race war.

[Razgovory]

What I was surprised about was that he didn't object to the ISIS camp thing, probably because he doesn't know.