Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Solmyr]

Israel-Palestine stuff does tend to tear communities apart. Everyone takes it way too personally.

[Norgy]

Well, I am certainly pulling out of this thread. And apologies for being a cunt.

[Threviel]

Islamic fundamentalism is horrible, but on a global scale it's like the black knight of Monty Python fame. Powerless and pathetic.

[Valmy]

Well, I am certainly pulling out of this thread. And apologies for being a cunt.

It's alright man. It is why we love you.

[The Minsky Moment]

I need to do better than that? I don't actually, because much more accomplished journalists than me established that link as a fact long ago.

Andrew Higgins of the WSJ, for instance, back in 2009.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas

I addressed this above in the big block of quotations.  It's one of those stories that people just accept and repeat without considering the factual basis too deeply.

In the first decade or so of Hamas' existence, Israel took a very hard line even as (during the 90s) it pursued some engagement with the PLO.  That didn't destroy Hamas, on the contrary, it allowed the organization to portray itself as the genuine resistance.  Thus, the policy may have helped Hamas, but it certainly was not intentional, and that is not what people usually mean when they make this claim.

The real source of the claim was the aftermath of the 2006 elections, when Israel did not intervene more strongly on Fatah's side in the Fatah=Hamas civil war.  As the block quoted passages, indicate, Israel did in fact take Fatah's side, but support was limited.  Reading into that a pro-Hamas policy is not reasonable, however. The decisions were made by the Olmert government, not the Bibi bloc. The claim that Israel should have permitted free passage through its territory of the al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades - an internationally designated terrorist organization responsible for many atrocities against Israel - was not remotely realistic.

The other piece of the picture is the last decade, where Israel has permitted some funds to flow to Hamas in their role as de facto civil authority in Gaza, and where Bibi and others have made statements indicating that the status quo of Palestinian division favored Israel. That is clear evidence of Bibi's poor understanding of the strategic situation but not evidence of Hamas being a creature of Israel. Israel permitted support funds to go through on the understandable theory that reducing civilian misery would lower demands for militancy, not because they wanted to bankroll Hamas. I find it quite ironic that many of the people who would criticize this policy or cite it as evidence of a pro-Hamas tilt are the same people who would have (and indeed have) accused Israel of "genocide" for not facilitating more aid for Gaza.

I also find the whole "Mossad created Hamas" theory to reek of ethnocentrism, as it portrays the dynamics of Palestinian politics as a puppet show of Israeli masters, instead of what it is, the product of political mobilization and the exercise of power by and among Palestinians themselves.

[viper37]

If Israel's military response is justified, is the Hamas also justified in targeting Israeli civilians for retaliation?

In the post WWII age I don't anyone is justified in targeting civilians, in the way I understand the term.

What is your understanding of the term then?

[viper37]

I need to do better than that? I don't actually, because much more accomplished journalists than me established that link as a fact long ago.

Andrew Higgins of the WSJ, for instance, back in 2009.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas

I addressed this above in the big block of quotations.  It's one of those stories that people just accept and repeat without considering the factual basis too deeply.

In the first decade or so of Hamas' existence, Israel took a very hard line even as (during the 90s) it pursued some engagement with the PLO.  That didn't destroy Hamas, on the contrary, it allowed the organization to portray itself as the genuine resistance.  Thus, the policy may have helped Hamas, but it certainly was not intentional, and that is not what people usually mean when they make this claim.

The real source of the claim was the aftermath of the 2006 elections, when Israel did not intervene more strongly on Fatah's side in the Fatah=Hamas civil war.  As the block quoted passages, indicate, Israel did in fact take Fatah's side, but support was limited.  Reading into that a pro-Hamas policy is not reasonable, however. The decisions were made by the Olmert government, not the Bibi bloc. The claim that Israel should have permitted free passage through its territory of the al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades - an internationally designated terrorist organization responsible for many atrocities against Israel - was not remotely realistic.

The other piece of the picture is the last decade, where Israel has permitted some funds to flow to Hamas in their role as de facto civil authority in Gaza, and where Bibi and others have made statements indicating that the status quo of Palestinian division favored Israel. That is clear evidence of Bibi's poor understanding of the strategic situation but not evidence of Hamas being a creature of Israel. Israel permitted support funds to go through on the understandable theory that reducing civilian misery would lower demands for militancy, not because they wanted to bankroll Hamas. I find it quite ironic that many of the people who would criticize this policy or cite it as evidence of a pro-Hamas tilt are the same people who would have (and indeed have) accused Israel of "genocide" for not facilitating more aid for Gaza.

I also find the whole "Mossad created Hamas" theory to reek of ethnocentrism, as it portrays the dynamics of Palestinian politics as a puppet show of Israeli masters, instead of what it is, the product of political mobilization and the exercise of power by and among Palestinians themselves.

You are conveniently letting aside the testimony of Segev and others:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israels-own-creation/


And other studies on the subject summarized here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

At every turn, Israel did everything it could to nurture the beast instead of starving it.  Then it blew in its face, more than once.

[Admiral Yi]

What is your understanding of the term then?

verb

    select as an object of attention or attack.
    "two men were targeted by the attackers"

"Hey Lev, there's a civilian.  Raise your rifle, put your sights on him and shoot him, because he's a civilian."

[Razgovory]

I'm still not seeing where the Mossad creates Hamas.

[The Minsky Moment]

You are conveniently letting aside the testimony of Segev and others:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israels-own-creation/

You mean the "testimony" (third hand press report) about the provincial governor (not Mossad) providing money to a political faction in Gaza years before Hamas was formed?

The real takeaway from the article is that the political underpinnings of Hamas were deeply rooted in Palestinian society going back decades and that Yassin was adroit in manipulating the simple mindedness of Israeli military authorities.  Basically, the exact opposite of the "Mossad created Hamas" false narrative.

[Oexmelin]

Haaretz Investigation: Israeli Army Uses Palestinian Civilians to Inspect Potentially Booby-trapped Tunnels in Gaza

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000

[OttoVonBismarck]

I won't be paying to read that article, but I assume the headline is exaggerated.

[crazy canuck]

It is being reported widely,

An excerpt from the Guardian:

The practice was so widespread across different units fighting in Gaza that it could in effect be considered a "protocol", said Nadav Weiman, the executive director of Breaking the Silence, a group founded by Israeli combat veterans to document military abuses.

[OttoVonBismarck]

In its response to the report, the IDF does not appear to deny that the practice is carried out. It says that such conduct is prohibited, that this was made clear to troops and that the allegations are under investigation.

Sounds like it is prohibited to me. You will have soldiers misbehaving in any war, that is why courts and investigations exist.

[Razgovory]

The heroic Palestinian resistance is producing more propaganda:








Globalizing the intifada, the resistance in New York has been busy:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/report-new-york-hate-crimes-skyrocket-with-jews-targeted-in-majority-of-incidents/ar-AA1pELV4?ocid=winp2fptaskbar&cvid=69d08b3fd0e740099dabe3b30dec2249&ei=10

(The Center Square) — Hate crimes have skyrocketed in New York over the past five years, according to a new report by state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli, which revealed nearly half of the incidents reported last year targeted Jewish people.

DiNapoli said there were 1,089 reported hate crime instances in 2023 — a 69% increase over pre-pandemic levels in 2019 and the highest number since the state began collecting the data as required by New York's 2000 Hates Crimes Act.

The most common hate crime reported in New York state in 2023 was based on religious discrimination, with 543 incidents reported. Discrimination based on race, ethnicity and national origin constituted about one-third, and sexual orientation/gender identity accounted for almost 17% of the hate crimes reported to authorities.
In 2023, 44% of all recorded hate crime incidents and 88% of religious-based hate crimes targeted Jewish victims, the largest share of all such crimes.

The share of racially motivated incidents in the state is now greater than it was five years ago, DiNapoli's report said. Nearly 17% of all hate crime incidents and 52% of racially motivated hate crimes were anti-Black, the report noted.

DiNapoli said the data is troubling and a call to action by state policymakers — and average New Yorkers — to take steps to reduce discrimination based on race, ethnicity, religion and sexual orientation.

"Fighting hatred and bigotry demands that we communicate with, respect and accept our neighbors," he said in a statement. "It requires our spiritual, political, community and business leaders to take active roles in denouncing hate, investing in prevention and protection efforts, and increasing education that celebrates the value of New York's diversity."

DiNapoli said the data likely doesn't capture all hate crimes because victims may be hesitant to report incidents due to "language barriers, fear of retaliation, mistrust in law enforcement or lack of confidence that justice will be served."

Antisemitic and anti-Muslim hate incidents and crimes have skyrocketed in New York and nationally since the war between Israel and Hamas began, according to advocacy groups, who say some of the confrontations have been violent.

The data shows the uptick in violence and intimidation against Jewish and Arab Americans has coincided with the Middle East conflict and comes in the wake of an increase in hate crimes nationally in recent years.

Mark Treyger, CEO of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York, said the report "challenges every New Yorker, from our government offices, religious institutions, private industries, to our schools, to actively build strategies to combat all forms of hatred."

"It is more than timely; it's a crucial reminder that each hate crime statistic represents a New Yorker who is suffering," Treyger said. "This isn't merely about data — it's about upholding our state and city's core values of compassion and inclusion."

There have also been several high-profile attacks on Muslim and Palestinian New Yorkers, with hate crimes against Asian New Yorkers remaining elevated over the past few years.

The recently signed budget expanded the list of offenses eligible for prosecution as hate crimes to nearly 100 by adding offenses such as graffiti, arson, gang assault, first-degree rape, criminal possession of a weapon and sex trafficking. Under previous law, there were only 66 offenses that could be charged as hate crimes.

Hochul has also provided more funding to the Securing Communities Against Hate initiative, which provides security grants to churches, synagogues and mosques to harden their infrastructure against attacks.

Hochul's budget plan boosted that funding to $35 million – a $10 million increase over the previous fiscal year.