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QuoteTurkish police fire tear gas in worst protests in years

(Reuters) - Turkish police fired tear gas and water cannon on Friday at demonstrators in central Istanbul, wounding scores of people and prompting rallies in other cities in the fiercest anti-government protests in years.

Thousands of demonstrators massed on streets surrounding Istanbul's central Taksim Square, long a venue for political unrest, while protests erupted in the capital, Ankara, and the Aegean coastal city of Izmir.

Broken glass and rocks were strewn across a main shopping street near Taksim. Primary school children ran crying from the clouds of tear gas, while tourists caught by surprise scurried to get back to luxury hotels lining the square.

The unrest reflects growing disquiet at the authoritarianism of Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan and his Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP).

Riot police clashed with tens of thousands of May Day protesters in Istanbul this month. There have also been protests against the government's stance on the conflict in neighboring Syria, a tightening of restrictions on alcohol sales and warnings against public displays of affection.

"We do not have a government, we have Tayyip Erdogan. ... Even AK Party supporters are saying they have lost their mind, they are not listening to us," said Koray Caliskan, a political scientist at Bosphorus University, who attended the protest.

"This is the beginning of a summer of discontent."

The protest at Taksim's Gezi Park started late on Monday after trees were torn up under a government redevelopment plan, but has widened into a broader demonstration against Erdogan's administration. Friday's violence erupted after a dawn police raid on demonstrators who had been camped out for days.

"This isn't just about trees anymore, it's about all of the pressure we're under from this government. We're fed up, we don't like the direction the country is headed in," said 18-year-old student Mert Burge, who came to support the protesters after reading on Twitter about the police use of tear gas.

"We will stay here tonight and sleep on the street if we have to," he said.

Thousands chanting for the government to resign gathered at a park in the center of Ankara, where police earlier fired tear gas to disperse several dozen opposition supporters trying to reach the AKP headquarters. Protesters also rallied at two locations in Izmir, according to pictures on social media.

EXCESSIVE FORCE

A Turkish woman of Palestinian origin was in a critical condition after being hit by a police gas canister, hospital sources said. The 34-year-old, who doctors had earlier identified as Egyptian, was undergoing an operation after suffering a brain hemorrhage.

A total of 12 people, including a pro-Kurdish MP and a Reuters photographer, suffered trauma injuries and hundreds suffered respiratory problems due to tear gas, doctors said.

Some people were injured when a wall they were climbing collapsed as they tried to flee clouds of tear gas.

Amnesty International said it was concerned by "the use of excessive force" by the police against what had started out as a peaceful protest. Ria Oomen-Ruijten, the European parliament rapporteur on Turkey, also voiced concern.

In Washington, the State Department said it was concerned with the number of injuries and was gathering its own information on the incident.

"We believe that Turkey's long-term stability, security and prosperity is best guaranteed by upholding the fundamental freedoms of expression, assembly and association, which is what it seems these individuals were doing," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters.

Interior Minister Muammer Guler promised that allegations that police had used disproportionate force would be investigated.

Erdogan has overseen a transformation in Turkey during his decade in power, turning its economy from crisis-prone into Europe's fastest-growing. Per-capita income has tripled in nominal terms since his party rose to power.

He remains by far Turkey's most popular politician, and is widely viewed as its most powerful leader since Mustafa Kemal Ataturk founded the modern secular republic on the ashes of the Ottoman Empire 90 years ago.

DEFIANCE

But Erdogan brooks little dissent. Hundreds of military officers have been jailed for plotting a coup against him in recent years. Academics, journalists, politicians and others face trial on similar charges.

He has made no secret of his ambition to run for the presidency in elections next year when his term as prime minister ends, increasing opposition dismay.

"These people will not bow down to you" read one banner at the Gezi Park protest, alongside a cartoon of Erdogan wearing an Ottoman emperor's turban.

Postings on social media including Twitter, where "Occupy Gezi" - a reference to protests in New York and London last year - was a top-trending hashtag, and Facebook said similar demonstrations were planned for the next few days in other Turkish cities including Ankara, Izmir, Adana and Bursa.

"Kiss protests," in which demonstrators are urged to lock lips, had already been planned for Istanbul and Ankara this weekend after subway officials were reported to have admonished a couple for kissing in public a week ago.

Erdogan is pushing ahead with a slew of multibillion-dollar projects he sees as embodying Turkey's emergence as a major power. They include a shipping canal, a giant mosque and a third Istanbul airport billed to be one of the world's biggest.

Speaking a few miles (km) from Gezi Park at the launch on Wednesday of construction of a third bridge linking Istanbul's European and Asian shores, Erdogan vowed to pursue plans to redevelop Taksim Square.

Architects, leftist parties, academics, city planners and others have long opposed the plans, saying they lacked consultation with civic groups and would remove one of central Istanbul's few green spaces.

QuotePeaceful Protest Over Istanbul Park Turns Violent as Police Crack Down

ISTANBUL — Police officers attacked a group of peaceful demonstrators on Friday in Istanbul's Taksim Square with water cannons and tear gas, sending scores of people, protesters and tourists alike, scurrying into shops and luxury hotels and turning the center of this city into a battle zone at the height of tourist season.

The police action was the latest violent crackdown by the government against a growing protest movement challenging plans to replace a park in Taksim Square, Istanbul's equivalent of Cairo's Tahrir Square, with a replica Ottoman-era army barracks that would house a shopping mall.

But while the removal of the park, which is filled with sycamore trees and is the last significant green space in the center of Istanbul, set off the protests at the beginning of the week, the gatherings have broadened into a wider expression of anger against the heavy-handed tactics and urban development plans of the government and its leader, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. His party, now in power a decade, is increasingly viewed by many Turks as becoming authoritarian.

Mr. Erdogan still has great support among Turkey's religious masses, but secular critics cite his government's sweeping prosecution and intimidation of journalists as evidence of its intolerance of dissent.

Much of the anger also centers on the struggle over Istanbul's public spaces. Mr. Erdogan's government has proceeded with disputed urban development plans with little public input, while his police forces have increasingly used tear gas against peaceful protesters, resulting in scores of injuries, including the hospitalization on Friday of a Kurdish lawmaker, who had become a vocal participant in the protests, after he was hit by a tear gas canister.

The protest movement comes amid continued public anger at Turkey's policy of supporting the rebels in Syria, which many Turks feel has led to a violent spillover inside Turkey, including recent car bombings in the southern city of Reyhanli, which killed dozens of people. The rising public disenchantment represents a significant political challenge to Mr. Erdogan, who is planning to run for the presidency next year and has been trying to alter the Constitution to create a more powerful presidential system.

In the early afternoon Friday, as protesters gathered and began shouting antigovernment chants, police officers in riot gear began surrounding the group, positioning vehicles that resembled tanks at the edge of the square around the protesters, who were mostly sitting.

"Taksim is ours; we are not giving it to the A.K.P.!" they chanted, referring to Mr. Erdogan's Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party, known as the A.K.P.

As they chanted, police officers casually put on their gas masks and the operators of the tanklike vehicles aimed their big guns, which fire a mixture of water and tear gas, at the group. Then chaos erupted. Protesters and onlookers, some of them tourists, ran down side streets where shopkeepers offered sliced lemons to soothe the burning sensation of the gas, and pharmacists doled out ointments for skin burns.

"The pigs, the pigs," said Esra Yurtnac, who was crying as she sought refuge in a bakery after being gassed. "All they know is how to use gas."

She added, "They think they can silence us with force, but they won't."

Hours after the clashes with protesters, an Istanbul court on Friday ruled in favor of a petition by a local advocacy group and halted the project until parties submitted their legal arguments to court, the semiofficial Anatolian News Agency reported. The interior minister also pledged on Friday that claims of excessive force would be investigated.

The chaos followed a dawn raid on an Occupy Wall Street-style encampment in Gezi Park, near Taksim, in which the police also used tear gas to drive away protesters and later barricaded the park. In an earlier raid on the camp, on Thursday, the police set fire to some tents. The brief occupation of the park, which began after bulldozers had started to take down trees, had taken on a festival-like atmosphere, with yoga, barbecues and musical performances, while those gathered chanted, "Taksim is ours! Istanbul is ours!"

The people adorned the camp with banners expressing the rising anger at the reshaping of Istanbul's urban spaces by the government. One read, "Don't touch our neighborhood, our squares, our trees, our water, our soil, our homes, our villages, our cities and our parks."

Another referred to Mr. Erdogan and the growing number of shopping malls being built around the city. "Let all shopping malls crumble and let Tayyip get crushed by their rubble," the banner read.

In building new mosques and emphasizing Turkey's Islamic past over its Byzantine and Roman legacies, Mr. Erdogan has been referred to as a latter-day Ottoman sultan, with little regard for seeking public input on the projects. On Wednesday, the government held a groundbreaking ceremony for a third bridge over the Bosporus that is being named for an Ottoman sultan.

"It's all about superiority, and ruling over the people like sultans," said one of the protesters, Seckin Barbaros, 26, a former journalist who is now unemployed. "When were we asked what we wanted? We have three times the amount of mosques as we do schools. Yet they are building new mosques. There are eight shopping malls in the vicinity of Taksim, yet they want to build another."

In a speech earlier in the week, Mr. Erdogan dismissed the protesters and said the destruction of park would go ahead, "no matter what they do."

The anger in the streets is also a rebuke to the economic policies of the government, which have relied heavily on construction and new housing in Istanbul to power economic growth. Turkey has had a resilient economy that emerged relatively unscathed from the global financial crisis, eclipsing the performance of Europe and many other nations. But some analysts worry the government's focus on construction projects could lead to a bubble much like the one in the United States that led to the economic collapse of 2008.

Ms. Barbaros said, "What about the day when all these shopping malls will be empty like in Greece and then they will wish they never constructed them."

She added: "Where are the opera houses? The theaters? The culture and youth centers? What about those? They only choose what will bring them the most profit without considering what we need."

Another demonstrator, Seyfettin Sabaz, who is training to be a dentist, said: "Many of the Turkish public think that we are here as environmentalists to save our sycamore trees. But that's not it. We are here to stand up against those that are trying to make a profit from our land."

Around Taksim Square, the site of several other tear gas attacks on protesters this year, including one on May Day demonstrators, the chaos is taking on a sense of the familiar to shopkeepers who are becoming accustomed to offering shelter and aid to tear gas victims.

"I own a decorations shop, but for the past year it has felt like I run a shelter for gas raid victims," said Ali Yildrim, who has lived in Istanbul for 35 years. "Soon I'll be keeping lemons and medicine behind my counter."

QuoteThe US has expressed concern over Turkey's handling of the protests and Amnesty International condemned the police's tactics.

In his speech, Mr Erdogan criticised the "preaching" of foreign governments, saying they "should first look at their own countries".

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 01, 2013, 07:56:53 AM
No one has made a photochop of that fat cop what gassed the Occupy people gassing Turks?

Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2013, 08:05:16 AM
This would be a good starting point.

Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2013, 03:11:10 AM
Who were those idiots who thought Erdogan is a good thing for Turkey again? Come forward and admit you were wrong.

Quote(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ftq7qnNB.jpg&hash=3c35cf4e8c31b1992c3effddea28cd3f643de9ee)

Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2013, 08:05:16 AM

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 01, 2013, 07:56:53 AM
No one has made a photochop of that fat cop what gassed the Occupy people gassing Turks?

This would be a good starting point.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.dazedcdn.com%2F786%2Fdd%2F1030%2F6%2F1036652.jpg&hash=3f8f774e8b1ea13aa30ba48f5cee5a9fd92c9d9b)

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 01, 2013, 02:50:17 PM
OC spray is a defensive weapon, you jackbooted thug.  Enjoy your future lawsuit.

Quote from: Grallon on June 01, 2013, 06:16:29 PM
How can anyone keep on advocating these people are fit for civilized company?  For civilized interactions?  For civilized reasoning?

I have no doubt a great many Muslims are reasonable enough to 'live and let live'.  Yet there's always this minority that is ready - and able - to throw it all  out for the sake of religious purity.  And more importantly, there's always the fact that the majority will tolerate this minority (and all its excesses) out of some... loyalty in the face of 'outsiders' I guess... 

I suppose that the fact Islam is presented/packaged/marketed as a concurrent value system to the Western one doesn't help these poor souls to distinguish between the personal, civic and religious spheres of their lives.  However it should be a red flag to any Western nation when it comes to immigration.  That way they wouldn't be caught up with 2nd generation terrorism and all the assorted 'pleasantries' offered by Islam...



G.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 07:40:17 PM

Quote from: Grallon on June 01, 2013, 06:16:29 PM
How can anyone keep on advocating these people are fit for civilized company?  For civilized interactions?  For civilized reasoning?

I have no doubt a great many Muslims are reasonable enough to 'live and let live'.  Yet there's always this minority that is ready - and able - to throw it all  out for the sake of religious purity.  And more importantly, there's always the fact that the majority will tolerate this minority (and all its excesses) out of some... loyalty in the face of 'outsiders' I guess... 

I suppose that the fact Islam is presented/packaged/marketed as a concurrent value system to the Western one doesn't help these poor souls to distinguish between the personal, civic and religious spheres of their lives.  However it should be a red flag to any Western nation when it comes to immigration.  That way they wouldn't be caught up with 2nd generation terrorism and all the assorted 'pleasantries' offered by Islam...



G.

All this because of anti-government protesters?

Quote from: Iormlund on June 02, 2013, 10:41:41 AM
I thought he wanted to build a mall.

QuoteTurkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has stepped back from building a shopping mall in the Artillery Barracks project to replace Taksim Gezi Park, while also announcing that a mosque will be built on Taksim Square.

"You cannot make an AVM [shopping mall] familiar to the international ones in this area. There is no conclusive AVM project here. Maybe we will make a city museum there or an architectural work that will put different activities in place. Is there any certain document? No," said Erdoğan on June 2 in Istanbul as he attended the Rumeli Turks Association's general assembly.

Erdoğan also said the much debated Atatürk Cultural Center (AKM), also on Taksim Square, should be demolished, proposing to build an opera house and a mosque there instead.

"A mosque will be built in Taksim," said Erdoğan adding that he did not have to receive permission from the main opposition leader or a "few marauders" for the projects. He said that the authority had already been given by people who voted for the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP).

Erdoğan remains defiant against Taksim Gezi Park protests

Erdoğan has remained defiant against the demonstrations taking place in Istanbul's Taksim Gezi Park for the past six days.

"Is your issue about planting trees? It is not tree cutting going on there. It is the stubbing 12 trees as part of the pedestrianization project of Taksim," said Erdoğan, citing the projects of his government that had planted trees across the country.

He also accused the protesters of causing damage to property. "They are burning, damaging the shops. Is this democracy?" asked Erdoğan. He also criticized those who called him a "dictator" for the excessive use of force against the protesters in Taksim.

"[They say] Tayyip Erdoğan is dictator. If they call one who serves the people a dictator, I cannot not say anything," he added. Erdoğan also reiterated that building a shopping mall in the Taksim Gezi was not a conclusive decision.

The police forces started to withdraw from Taksim on June 1, where a brutal crackdown targeting demonstrators protesting the demolition of Taksim Gezi Park had been ongoing for over a day. Clashes broke out in Istanbul's symbolic İstiklal Avenue, the Beşiktaş and Harbiye districts.

Protesters entered Taksim Square and even took over Gezi Park, which had been cordoned off by the police after a very violent dawn raid on demonstrators on May 31. The raid had triggered some of the largest clashes between police and peaceful protesters in Turkey in recent years after activists occupied Gezi Park on May 28.

QuoteThe center is home to the
Istanbul State Symphony Orchestra and Choir (İstanbul Devlet Senfoni Orkestrası ve Korosu),
Istanbul State Modern Folk Music Ensemble (İstanbul Devlet Modern Halk Müziği Topluluğu) and
Istanbul State Classical Turkish Music Choir (İstanbul Devlet Klasik Türk Müziği Korosu).
During the summer and Informationmonths, AKM hosts the Istanbul Arts and Culture Festival.
The complex is a rebuilding of the former AKM, which was burnt down in a fire on November 27, 1970 during a performance. It is currently undergoing major refurbishments to bring it up to date before Istanbul takes over the title of European Capital of Culture in 2010. The modernization works have been designed by renowned Turkish architecture firm Tabanlıoğlu Mimarlık.[1]

Quote from: Syt on June 02, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Well, Turkish politics since Atatürk has been about having a strong leader at the top. He enjoys a lot of support in the conservative rural regions in the country and had close to 50% of votes in the last elections. Given that, he can afford to talk big. As long as he manages to piss off less than half of the people, he will be fine.

QuoteRegarding corruption - it seems to be an issue for many, but at the same time it seems to be expected that the ruling party does favors for their friends. What worries me more is that a lot of the economic growth in past years comes from lots and lots of construction projects that has some analysts worried that a bubble is building that, when it bursts, will send the country crashing back down.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2013, 02:12:53 PMFair enough. But I mean from his own perspective. When party leaders stop even pretending to care about the people who might vote for the opposition they're normally creating a far stronger and more aggressive opposition. Which Turkey needs - the CHP are a shower.

But also people who may not like him, and are a bit worried but willing to give him a chance may hear his rhetoric and get on the streets too.

QuoteIncidentally I walked past a solidarity protest in Trafalgar Square yesterday. Turkish protesters look like they have a lot of fun. There was organised dancing and sit-ins, they also looked really annoyed at the Socialist Workers who'd joined in with anti-Iraq war placards :lol:

QuoteViolence reignites on Turkey's streets

By Daniel Dombey in Istanbul

Turkey's prime minister lashed out at tens of thousands of protesters on Sunday, deepening a rift that has spawned Turkey's biggest demonstrations in years as tensions grow between the Islamist-rooted government and secular middle-class Turks.

In a series of television appearances following the occupation of Taksim Square, Recep Tayyip Erdogan dismissed protesters as "looters", described Twitter as a "curse" and branded anyone who drank alcohol an alcoholic.

He spoke as demonstrators marched again to Taksim, which has been surrounded by protesters' barricades since his government withdrew police forces on Saturday. The police were again extensively using tear gas against protesters late on Sunday in worsening clashes in both Istanbul's Besiktas area and Ankara, the capital city.

In Besiktas, protesters thronged the streets among a heavy police presence as residents leaned from their windows banging pots and pans in support of the demonstration.

Mr Erdogan's plans to replace Gezi Park, adjoining Taksim, with a reconstruction of an Ottoman-style barracks, complete with a shopping mall, sparked the initial protest last week. But the scale of the police crackdown – including hours of relentless tear gas attacks by the police on overwhelmingly peaceful protesters from Friday – magnified the dispute.

On Sunday, Mr Erdogan discarded some of his rhetoric from a day before, when he had suggested he could summon 1m people on to the street if the demonstrators called out 200,000.

"If you can call someone who is a servant of the country a dictator, then it leaves me speechless," he said in a speech. "I have no aim other than serving the nation."

It was unclear when Mr Erdogan would order the police to move back into Taksim. "These events have nothing to do with trees," Mr Erdogan said, referring to initial protests against his plans to develop Gezi Park. "This is an ideological fight against me."

The face-off between Mr Erdogan and demonstrators across the country comes after 10 years in which the prime minister has presided over rapidly rising living standards and dominated the country's political landscape, winning three elections and defeating a series of coups by the army.

Many protesters say that authoritarian tendencies on the part of Mr Erdogan are the root cause of the scale of discontent, citing measures such as a new law to restrict the consumption of alcohol.

"I do these things because I love all of my citizens; I want them to get rid of their bad habits," Mr Erdogan said.

He argued that anyone who drank alcohol was an alcoholic unless they voted for the ruling Justice and Development party, although he later said he was referring to regular users of alcohol.

Mr Erdogan also said that he would not be deterred from plans to build a mosque in the square by Turkey's opposition party, which he accused of manipulating the protests for its electoral advantage, or by "looters" – a reference to the protesters.

In scenes earlier in the weekend some protesters threw stones at police and smashed public property. But the protesters insisted that much of the damage was caused by police and on Sunday hundreds cleaned Taksim square and the neighbouring Gezi Park in a celebratory atmosphere.

While protesters have vehemently criticised Turkish mass media for restricting coverage of the demonstrations, Mr Erdogan inveighed against social media for passing misinformation. "There is this curse called Twitter . . . Social media is the curse of society," he said.

QuoteSyria issues travel warning for Turkey

Syrian authorities, battling a rebel uprising in which 80,000 people have been killed, has advised citizens against travel to neighbouring Turkey on safety grounds.

Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
:lol:



Also: are these protests really causing Erdogan to come out of the islamist closet? What kind of retard comments are those?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 02, 2013, 10:38:36 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 07:40:17 PM

Quote from: Grallon on June 01, 2013, 06:16:29 PM
How can anyone keep on advocating these people are fit for civilized company?  For civilized interactions?  For civilized reasoning?

I have no doubt a great many Muslims are reasonable enough to 'live and let live'.  Yet there's always this minority that is ready - and able - to throw it all  out for the sake of religious purity.  And more importantly, there's always the fact that the majority will tolerate this minority (and all its excesses) out of some... loyalty in the face of 'outsiders' I guess... 

I suppose that the fact Islam is presented/packaged/marketed as a concurrent value system to the Western one doesn't help these poor souls to distinguish between the personal, civic and religious spheres of their lives.  However it should be a red flag to any Western nation when it comes to immigration.  That way they wouldn't be caught up with 2nd generation terrorism and all the assorted 'pleasantries' offered by Islam...



G.

All this because of anti-government protesters?

taksim square is Ataturk-central for Istanbul iirc. A physical symbol of the secular state that Turkey supposedly is. Now Ergodgan wants to build a gigantic mosque there -right across the opera and what not. Seems like an another assault on the symbols of secularism in the country.

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Military dictatorship is a good thing in the muslim world.

Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
Also: are these protests really causing Erdogan to come out of the islamist closet? What kind of retard comments are those?

QuoteI agree. However, such persons usually have a tendency to get into a situation where the mask comes off. Hell, it happened even to Chancellor Kohl who was a champion of sitting back and waiting for a situation to blow over when he refused to reveal the source of 2 million DM he had accepted on behalf of his party, because he had given his "word of honor" that he wouldn't reveal the donor.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 07:26:21 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Military dictatorship is a good thing in the muslim world.

I wonder if Tamas and Viking agree with you.  It's better to have secular despot then a Democratically elected Islamist.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:38:53 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 07:26:21 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Military dictatorship is a good thing in the muslim world.

I wonder if Tamas and Viking agree with you.  It's better to have secular despot then a Democratically elected Islamist.

Viking most assuredly would.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2013, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

When the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

Quote from: Viking on June 02, 2013, 10:05:51 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:38:53 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 07:26:21 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Military dictatorship is a good thing in the muslim world.

I wonder if Tamas and Viking agree with you.  It's better to have secular despot then a Democratically elected Islamist.

Viking most assuredly would.

I certainly do. Better a secular despot than an elected Islamist.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

Not at all.

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

See? It takes one to know one so Neil is the ideal witness to truth here.



The fundamental problem with the Islamist, even the peaceful one using Democratic means, is that Islamism in and of itself is anti-Democratic. The very central core of Islamist ideology is that the Shariah is the law given by God to man and that man is obligated to follow this law or be punished by Gods followers in this lifetime and by God in the next. Islamism is all about dismantling any democracy it might find itself in control of and replacing it with the 7th century example set by Muhammed and the Rightly Guided Califs. The way to replace an injust (in their view this means un-islamic) ruler is for the faithful to revolt violently against him and replace him.

This is fundamentally anti-democratic. When you vote in anti-democratic parties, you just held your last free election.

The advantage of the secular despot is that the secular despot cannot and usually does not pretend to have a viable alternative to western liberal democracy. I choose the evil which admits that it is the lesser of many evils rather than the one that falsely pretends that it is good.

This view is not a result of my atheism, but rather a result of my politics.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:23:00 PM
Yeah, it hasn't devolved into theocracy yet.  Simply because some people protest does not mean the country has become a theocracy.

Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2013, 11:55:59 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:23:00 PM
Yeah, it hasn't devolved into theocracy yet.  Simply because some people protest does not mean the country has become a theocracy.

No, but democratic institutions, limited as they already were in Turkey, are being eroded.  We don't know what the end game is, maybe Erdogan is more interested in becoming Turkey's Putin rather than Turkey's Khomeini, but in any case, democracy without institutions is no democracy.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 12:02:28 AM
Or he could just be Turkey's George W. Bush.

Destroying democracy to save it seems like a losing proposition, and if I am to understand correctly Democracy is so fragile in Turkey because of the secularists in the military keep overthrowing the government.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:21:46 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Oh, I think it is.  Dawkins himself signed a petitions to outlaw the teaching of religion on the UK, has said that teaching religion to children is as bad as child abuse, and his meme theory attacks the idea of freedom of speech and religion.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:24:19 PM

It would appear that you are prime example of the authoritarian streak in the Dawkinites.  You just endorsed dictatorship.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:21:46 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Oh, I think it is.  Dawkins himself signed a petitions to outlaw the teaching of religion on the UK, has said that teaching religion to children is as bad as child abuse, and his meme theory attacks the idea of freedom of speech and religion.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 07:54:32 AM
Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism :mellow:

Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2013, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

When the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 07:54:32 AM
Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism :mellow:

Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2013, 08:13:50 AM

Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2013, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

When the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

True but what does that have to do with this situation?  Unless peaceful protests is how one carries out a military coup these days.

Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2013, 08:16:47 AM
It's the same situation as the Egyptian Army is in. They probably want to carry out a coup but their close relationship to the US military means that they cant' without breaking that vital relationship.

Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2013, 03:05:34 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:21:46 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Oh, I think it is.  Dawkins himself signed a petitions to outlaw the teaching of religion on the UK, has said that teaching religion to children is as bad as child abuse, and his meme theory attacks the idea of freedom of speech and religion.

He signed a petition trying to ban the teaching of religion as if it were true in government schools in the UK. He wishes the UK law on the issue to be like the US law. He considers threatening children with the fear of hell as equivalent to child abuse. He agrees with Dan Dennet in teaching it as literature and that teaching comparative religion is probably the best way (apart from reading the bible cover to cover) to de-convert the religious. His meme hypothesis does not attack anything.

I have no desire to discuss this with you, but did see the need, just in case anybody takes you seriously, that you are completely wrong.

QuoteWe the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make it illegal to indoctrinate or define children by religion before the age of 16.

    In order to encourage free thinking, children should not be subjected to any regular religious teaching or be allowed to be defined as belonging to a particular religious group based on the views of their parents or guardians.

Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2013, 03:07:42 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2013, 11:24:19 PM

It would appear that you are prime example of the authoritarian streak in the Dawkinites.  You just endorsed dictatorship.

No I did not you blithering idiot. I was preferring the lesser of two evils when democracy is not possible.

Quote from: Neil on June 03, 2013, 08:15:26 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 07:54:32 AM
Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism :mellow:

So?  They're an uncontrollable mess of retards who think that they're the smartest people in the room, and that only the smartest people in the room should have a say.  My point is that I am right, everyone else is wrong, and you're a terrible person for hating on people who want movies based on old properties to bear some resemblance to those properties.

Quote from: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 01:07:19 PM
Blogpost from the ground, so to speak: http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 01:43:42 PM
Sounds more like "Occupy Istanbul" then, "We must stop the theocracy!".

Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2013, 01:46:48 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 01:43:42 PM
Sounds more like "Occupy Istanbul" then, "We must stop the theocracy!".

Doesn't really sound like they are demanding a military dictatorship either oddly.

Quote from: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 01:07:19 PM
Blogpost from the ground, so to speak: http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

QuoteThe whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its people's will

Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2013, 01:46:48 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 01:43:42 PM
Sounds more like "Occupy Istanbul" then, "We must stop the theocracy!".

Doesn't really sound like they are demanding a military dictatorship either oddly.

Quotetrust a yoga teacher to score points against the demonstrators. I mean come on:

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 12:02:50 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 03, 2013, 08:15:26 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 07:54:32 AM
Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism :mellow:

So?  They're an uncontrollable mess of retards who think that they're the smartest people in the room, and that only the smartest people in the room should have a say.  My point is that I am right, everyone else is wrong, and you're a terrible person for hating on people who want movies based on old properties to bear some resemblance to those properties.

Wait, what?  You lost me on the last part.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 02:35:18 PM
What? :o

Edit: I'll give you 'hateful, hateful', but the rest is nonsense.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 02:35:18 PM
What? :o

Edit: I'll give you 'hateful, hateful', but the rest is nonsense.

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 01:55:24 PM

Quote from: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 01:07:19 PM
Blogpost from the ground, so to speak: http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

trust a yoga teacher to score points against the demonstrators. I mean come on:

QuoteThe whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its people's will

WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US? Freeways? POWER PLANTS?!!!

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 02:46:31 PM
In your country I suppose you could say the same thing about the communists...

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 02:46:31 PM
In your country I suppose you could say the same thing about the communists...

QuoteWHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US? Freeways? POWER PLANTS?!!!

Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2013, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

When the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Well, I am still with the protesters though. Fuck bigotry and fucking religion-induced personal life micromanager laws. That kind of shit will eventually ruin any country.

And fascists and thugs being out in force? Well of course. Regardless of how noble the cause of civil unrest is, it will always be the violent scum on the initial front line.

Quote from: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 04:56:50 PM
What do you mean by "sexual deviants"?

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:02:53 PM
:lmfao: you still don't give up the rose-tinted glasses do you? :p

Broad support for bigotry and populism is there to stay

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 05:02:24 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Well, I am still with the protesters though. Fuck bigotry and fucking religion-induced personal life micromanager laws. That kind of shit will eventually ruin any country.

And fascists and thugs being out in force? Well of course. Regardless of how noble the cause of civil unrest is, it will always be the violent scum on the initial front line.

What you fail to understand is that the CHP has a far longer, more violent history of religious repression than the AKP.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:02:53 PM
:lmfao: you still don't give up the rose-tinted glasses do you? :p

Broad support for bigotry and populism is there to stay

You have no intellectual or emotional investment in the country.  All I am seeing right now is a tribal hostility to religious populations.

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:04:41 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 05:02:24 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Well, I am still with the protesters though. Fuck bigotry and fucking religion-induced personal life micromanager laws. That kind of shit will eventually ruin any country.

And fascists and thugs being out in force? Well of course. Regardless of how noble the cause of civil unrest is, it will always be the violent scum on the initial front line.

What you fail to understand is that the CHP has a far longer, more violent history of religious repression than the AKP.

I don't get it. So akp should stay because at least they oppress non-Islamists?

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:06:35 PM
What you see is unrest against a religious rightish populism you would despise if you saw it in a western country

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:06:35 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:02:53 PM
:lmfao: you still don't give up the rose-tinted glasses do you? :p

Broad support for bigotry and populism is there to stay

You have no intellectual or emotional investment in the country.  All I am seeing right now is a tribal hostility to religious populations.

What you see is unrest against a religious rightish populism you would despise if you saw it in a western country

Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2013, 03:14:44 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 02:46:31 PM
In your country I suppose you could say the same thing about the communists...

Well first they destroyed Budapest in a bloody siege and then again in a vicious street battle in 1956 and finally they replaced beautiful old buildings with big ugly green boxes.  The Hungarians sure have alot to be thankful for.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 05:08:49 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:04:41 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 05:02:24 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Well, I am still with the protesters though. Fuck bigotry and fucking religion-induced personal life micromanager laws. That kind of shit will eventually ruin any country.

And fascists and thugs being out in force? Well of course. Regardless of how noble the cause of civil unrest is, it will always be the violent scum on the initial front line.

What you fail to understand is that the CHP has a far longer, more violent history of religious repression than the AKP.

I don't get it. So akp should stay because at least they oppress non-Islamists?

They don't hang or assassinate people as the CHP have done in living memory.  Turgut Ozal was murdered because he posed a danger to the Army's stake nationalized industries. 

Also, the CHP was at the helm during the burning of Izmir, during the Istanbul pogrom, closing of Haliki, etc...

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Well, I am still with the protesters though. Fuck bigotry and fucking religion-induced personal life micromanager laws. That kind of shit will eventually ruin any country.

And fascists and thugs being out in force? Well of course. Regardless of how noble the cause of civil unrest is, it will always be the violent scum on the initial front line.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 05:07:58 PM
I'm with the protesters too. But that's because I love a protest movement and I think Erdogan's been around too long, it'll do everyone good for the party managers to move him on.

QuoteWhen did those happen

Quotewhere did the protesters declare that their agenda is to put this other party back in power?

Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2013, 08:38:32 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2013, 05:07:58 PM
I'm with the protesters too. But that's because I love a protest movement and I think Erdogan's been around too long, it'll do everyone good for the party managers to move him on.

I actually agree with you on this.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 05:15:58 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Well, I am still with the protesters though. Fuck bigotry and fucking religion-induced personal life micromanager laws. That kind of shit will eventually ruin any country.

And fascists and thugs being out in force? Well of course. Regardless of how noble the cause of civil unrest is, it will always be the violent scum on the initial front line.

What sort of bigotry are we talking about?  The Euro Islamaphobia type that so infests countries like Hungary?  I don't think they protesting that.

Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2013, 03:11:10 AM
Who were those idiots who thought Erdogan is a good thing for Turkey again? Come forward and admit you were wrong.

Quote from: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 04:56:50 PM
What do you mean by "sexual deviants"?

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2013, 01:29:13 AM
if I took Psellus' reasoning and replaced AKP with FIDESZ, and that other party with MSZP, I would arrive at the exact rhetoric FIDESZ supporters use to justify their support for the slide into dictatorship: AT LEAST IT IS NOT THE OTHER GUYS!!!

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:44:20 AM

Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2013, 03:11:10 AM
Who were those idiots who thought Erdogan is a good thing for Turkey again? Come forward and admit you were wrong.

I can see that not only this has not happened but the pro-AKP idiots are in full swing.

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:55:18 AM
Tamas, stop responding to Raz. He is an obstinate, obnoxious and deliberately obtuse moron - there is no point arguing against him. Btw, didn't he announce recently he won't be posting his bullshit in this forum any more? I knew that was too good to be true.

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:55:18 AM
Tamas, stop responding to Raz. He is an obstinate, obnoxious and deliberately obtuse moron - there is no point arguing against him. Btw, didn't he announce recently he won't be posting his bullshit in this forum any more? I knew that was too good to be true.

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:55:18 AM
Btw, didn't he announce recently he won't be posting his bullshit in this forum any more? I knew that was too good to be true.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2013, 02:11:43 AM
I would rather side with the tea party then a dictatorship.  I Guess you don't feel the same way.

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2013, 02:48:09 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2013, 02:11:43 AM
I would rather side with the tea party then a dictatorship.  I Guess you don't feel the same way.

didn't that "dicatorship" lost to the present government IN AN ELECTION?

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 04, 2013, 04:07:19 AM
What is Erdogan doing specifically that makes some posters here characterize him as on the verge of instituting a theocracy? 

And in particular, egregious enough to justify a dictatorship?

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 04:33:44 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 04, 2013, 04:07:19 AM
What is Erdogan doing specifically that makes some posters here characterize him as on the verge of instituting a theocracy? 

And in particular, egregious enough to justify a dictatorship?

www.google.com

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2013, 05:09:41 AM
Who is advocating that? It was a strawman by Raz, of all people.

QuoteWhen the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

QuoteBetter a secular despot than an elected Islamist.

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:55:18 AM
Tamas, stop responding to Raz. He is an obstinate, obnoxious and deliberately obtuse moron - there is no point arguing against him. Btw, didn't he announce recently he won't be posting his bullshit in this forum any more? I knew that was too good to be true.

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2013, 01:40:16 AM
Also, I saw mentioned, a supposedly announced AKP plan to move toward a Presidential system with widespread powers for the future President (hmmm, wonder who might that be). Is that legit?

QuoteTurkey protests: 'message received', says President Abdullah Gul
Abdullah Gul, the president of Turkey, has called for calm after days of violence clashes between police and protesters, promising that their message has been "received".
By AFP2:44PM BST 03 Jun 2013

"Democracy does not only mean elections," Mr Gul was quoted by the Anatolia news agency as saying on the fourth day of nationwide anti-government protests. "The messages delivered with good intentions have been received."

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has repeatedly said that protesters were manipulated by extremist groups and should show their discontent "at the ballot box", urging them to end their demonstrations immediately.

"I am calling on all my citizens to abide by the rules and state their objections and views in a peaceful way, as they have already done," Mr Gul added.

His comments came amid reports of a 20-year-old Turkish man dying when a taxi drove into a group of demonstrators on an Istanbul highway during an anti-government protest,

Turkish doctors' association TBB said on Monday, the first known death related to the demonstrations.

The protester was named as Mehmet Ayvalitas, and TBB board member Huseyin Demirduzen said four other people were also injured, one of them seriously.

The president said the protesters should watch out for "illegal organisations" infiltrating their demonstrations.
He warned against actions that would tarnish Turkey's image.

The protests started out as a local environment campaign and quickly turned into one of the biggest demonstrations against Erdogan's government since it took power a year ago.

Earlier, Mr Erdogan dismissed the street protests as being organised by extremists, described them as a temporary blip and angrily rejected comparisons with the Arab Spring uprisings.

Appearing defensive and angry, he lashed out at reporters who asked whether the government had understood "the message" by protesters or whether he would soften his tone.

"What is the message? I want to hear it from you," he retorted.

"What can a softened tone be like? Can you tell me?" he said ahead of leaving for a trip to Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia.
He also lashed out at Twitter, used by many of the protesters.

"There is a troublemaker called Twitter, the worst of lies are in there," he told the Haberturk television channel on Sunday, citing false tweets about attacks against protesters and fatalities.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 05:13:07 PM
Sounds fine to me.  I have no particular love of Erdogan, I just wanted to see a democratic government survive a religious conservative in office.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2013, 08:04:34 AM
Surely depends what you mean. A few democratic governments in Europe certainly have been brought down by public unrest.

Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 04, 2013, 08:18:16 AM
I've noticed in other threads about this series of protests (most recently the current SA thread), along with others in various places, that people seem to want closeup photos of the spent tear gas canisters.  Anyone know why this is?

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2013, 08:09:16 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2013, 08:04:34 AM
Surely depends what you mean. A few democratic governments in Europe certainly have been brought down by public unrest.

Ooops.  I meant to type 'peaceful' when I typed 'public' :blush:

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:48:44 AM

Quote from: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 04:56:50 PM
What do you mean by "sexual deviants"?

It's an internationally famous gay cruising area. Of course he knows it, which makes his backtracking about "country bumpkins" (which there is no evidence about at all on all kinds of internet write-ups about the park) all the more laughable.

Quote from: Viking on June 04, 2013, 08:22:52 AM
I don't know about peaceful, but I'm pretty sure a democratic government or two has been brought down by pubic unrest.

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2013, 02:08:29 AM

Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 01:55:18 AM
Tamas, stop responding to Raz. He is an obstinate, obnoxious and deliberately obtuse moron - there is no point arguing against him. Btw, didn't he announce recently he won't be posting his bullshit in this forum any more? I knew that was too good to be true.

I tend to agree. At least Psellus has his hard-on for anything east of the Bosporus so he has some excuse on siding with the creeping theocracy. But Raz just saw that the initial posts were pro-protesters and decided to side with the Turkish Tea Party just so he can argue.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 04, 2013, 08:22:12 AM
You can tell where they were made. During the Egypt protests against Mubarak, there was a stink (GET IT?) about the American markings on the tear gas grenades.

Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 04, 2013, 08:33:02 AM

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 04, 2013, 08:22:12 AM
You can tell where they were made. During the Egypt protests against Mubarak, there was a stink (GET IT?) about the American markings on the tear gas grenades.

Oh right, I remember that now.  Guess I should have connected the two, no matter how dumb it seems.  "Hm. Russian, Russian, OMERGAWD MADE IN USA!!11"

The canisters being used in Turkey seem, at least from the photos I've glanced at, to be a mix of Turkish and US stuff (going by the languages on the labels), and a lot of it seems to be expired.

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2013, 08:28:55 AM

Quote from: Viking on June 04, 2013, 08:22:52 AM
I don't know about peaceful, but I'm pretty sure a democratic government or two has been brought down by pubic unrest.

Really?  Correcting me after I already said I mistyped?

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 04, 2013, 08:45:40 AM
What was funny in Egypt was they should have noticed the m113's and m60's. but OMG, AMERICAN TEAR GAS!

Quote from: Viking on June 04, 2013, 08:54:27 AM
try again

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2013, 08:58:23 AM

Quote from: Viking on June 04, 2013, 08:54:27 AM
try again

One bush of shame not enough?

Quote from: Neil on June 04, 2013, 07:48:39 AM
No, he took a week off.  You're the one who has 'quit' seven or eight times.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 04, 2013, 08:23:00 AM
There are gay bars in Istanbul. I see no reason why the fact that the park is made use of by Turkish closet cases is an argument for keeping it. And there is other illegal activity there.

QuoteWhen Recep Tayyip Erdogan was mayor of Istanbul in the mid-1990s, he did what successful big city mayors do -- he made life a little easier for the millions of residents of his beautiful, maddening megalopolis. Erdogan cleaned up the garbage in the streets, unknotted traffic, and literally cleared the air by introducing environmentally friendlier public transportation. Always one for grand ambitions, during his tenure at City Hall the future prime minister made a now often repeated statement to a journalist from the daily Cumhuriyet, "Democracy," he declared, "is like a tram. You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off."

These stories go a long way toward explaining the demonstrations against Turkey's prime minister over the past several days. Erdogan, who hails from a rough-and-tumble neighborhood of Istanbul, has both an innate sense of what makes average Turks tick and an oddly instrumental view of democracy. He never indicated the "destination" toward which he thought Turkey's democracy should be headed. But 15 years later, many Turks have drawn the conclusion that Erdogan had always intended to step off the tram as soon he had accumulated unrivaled power.

The prime minister's party, Justice and Development (AKP), was founded in August 2001 after young reformists broke from the old guard of Turkey's Islamist movement. Even then, Erdogan was a first among equals, but he had important associates, especially Abdullah Gul, who now occupies the presidential palace and remains officially above politics. Yet, in time, Erdogan became the party and the party became him. Not that Turkish voters seemed to mind: the AKP has had a majority in parliament since November 2002.

Trees were only a proximate cause of the first full-fledged political crisis of Erdogan's remarkable decade long run. For many of the people who turned out to protest over the last four days, Erdogan wore out his welcome from the very start. Supporters of the Republican People's Party (CHP), which represents a peevish, reckless, and visionless group of Kemalist elites and alleged social democrats, oppose the AKP on principle. There were also reports of Leftists and "anti-capitalist Muslims" joining the fray. A variety of small, less-influential political parties turned up to wave flags in Taksim Square. Yet the anger went beyond the typically narrow interests of Turkey's party politics. The demonstrators were not "marginal" as Erdogan asserted, but rather profoundly frustrated because they have been marginalized.

The prime minister has responded to the demonstrations with anger, at one point threatening to bring millions of supporters into the streets. Erdogan's style may be lamentable, but he was right to point out his millions of supporters. When he and the AKP scored an unprecedented 47 percent of the popular vote in the 2007 elections, the prime minister enjoyed the backing of a broad section of Turkish society -- pious Muslims, Kurds, liberals, big business, and average Turks whose bank accounts grew during Erdogan's first term. With a majority in the parliament and a vast reservoir of public support, the prime minister plowed ahead with plans to transform the country politically and economically, dismissing criticism with a high-hand and arresting and silencing peaceful political opponents. This shattered his coalition as liberals fled, Kurds drifted away, and big business cowered in fear of a powerful government that had demonstrated its willingness to punish firms that failed to heel to the prime minister and his party.

Even though Erdogan has resorted to intimidation and other authoritarian tactics, he keeps racking up impressive electoral victories. In June 2011, voters returned the prime minister and his party to power with 49.95 percent of the vote. Even today, as the tear gas continues to fly, there is no question that Erdogan would win an election. It is hard to see how the moribund opposition can capitalize on Erdogan's missteps, and although AKP supporters may be watching developments with consternation, they are not ditching their membership cards. This is because, consistent with Erdogan's record as mayor of Istanbul, he has done many things as prime minister to make the lives of Turks appreciably better. Advances in transportation, health care, and economic opportunity are profoundly important to a growing middle class who returns the favor in the form of votes.

Still, Turkey is decidedly split. Erdogan governs one half the country -- his supporters -- and intimidates the other. His political lineage and personal background have instilled within him a certain amount of paranoia. Turkey's Islamists, no matter how powerful they become, are always on the lookout for the next coup or round of repression. (In 1998, for example, Erdogan was jailed for reciting a poem that was allegedly a call to holy war against the Turkish state even though the author is one of the most important theorists in Turkish nationalist pantheon.) For the rising new political and business class that Erdogan represents, correcting the past wrongs of the Kemalist elite -- which discriminated and repressed the two bogeymen of the Turkish politics, Kurds and Islamists -- has been a priority. They have worked to accomplish it through both democratic and (more often recently) non-democratic means. The problem for Erdogan is that, despite his best efforts, the tram that he referred to when he was mayor of Istanbul stopped in Taksim Square, where a lot of Turks are signaling they will no longer tolerate his authoritarian turn.

QuoteThe prime minister has responded to the demonstrations with anger, at one point threatening to bring millions of supporters into the streets. Erdogan's style may be lamentable, but he was right to point out his millions of supporters.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 04, 2013, 04:07:19 AM
What is Erdogan doing specifically that makes some posters here characterize him as on the verge of instituting a theocracy? 

And in particular, egregious enough to justify a dictatorship?

QuoteSocial media, the supreme arsenal of the demonstrators at the Gezi Park protests, is now being targeted by the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) for working against society's "serenity and peace," and the government is now seeking ways to restrict it.

After Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan called Twitter a "plague," the government has moved to bring certain legal regulations to the use of social media. Following the snowballing impact it engendered in organizing the Gezi Park protests, Erdoğan is reportedly considering precautions to take, as discussed during an emergency meeting of the Central Decision and Executive Council (MKYK) of the AKP on June 8.

The AKP's vice chairman of media and public relations responsible for social media, Ali Şahin, hinted at a "legal regulation" to "set social media in order." "Social media must be brought under order and regularity ... A legal regulation could be made. People must be held responsible for the content they write. If as a result of a tweet they write, people loot shops and burn vehicles, the one who wrote it must bear its costs," Şahin told the Hürriyet Daily News yesterday.

Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2013, 03:26:19 AM
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/twitter-lies-deadlier-than-car-bombs-ruling-party-official.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48567&NewsCatID=341

Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
I'm curious Tamas, would you support the Hungarian communists against Orban?

Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2013, 07:59:54 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
I'm curious Tamas, would you support the Hungarian communists against Orban?

There is no real difference between the communists and Orban except for the cover their wrap around the same shit, so no.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2013, 08:13:06 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2013, 07:59:54 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
I'm curious Tamas, would you support the Hungarian communists against Orban?

There is no real difference between the communists and Orban except for the cover their wrap around the same shit, so no.

Living under Orban is the same as living under Communist rule?

Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2013, 08:23:45 AM
Go on Raz, please keep explaining the Hungarian political situation to me.

Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2013, 07:26:12 AM
Reports (and photos made with mobile photos) indicate that in the "çağlayan" courthouse whatever that may be, lawyers who went to work and could be IDed as having protested, are being arrested.


Psellus' democratic hero in action again :P

Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2013, 03:26:19 AM
BUT AT LEAST THEY ARE NOT FORCEFUL SECULARISTS!

QuoteHis nasty habit of imprisoning journalists and having them sacked when they displease him is a good start to the list.

QuoteThe comparison to Putin is eerie, down to the plan to shuttle between PM and President.

Quote from: Syt on June 12, 2013, 11:41:11 PM
Erdogan has announced yesterday the whole thing will be over within 24 hours, and that the police actions haven't been tough enough yet.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 12, 2013, 06:46:25 PM
I also don't know who you're arguing with :mellow:

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2013, 07:50:02 PM
Heh.  I was actually thinking that if Erdogan was not a Muslim he'd be viewed more like Sarkosy.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 13, 2013, 03:06:51 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2013, 07:50:02 PM
Heh.  I was actually thinking that if Erdogan was not a Muslim he'd be viewed more like Sarkosy.

There's no way a conservative would go against the wine lobby in France. Now, a dhimmi socialist...  :frog: :hmm:

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 03:24:07 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 13, 2013, 03:06:51 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2013, 07:50:02 PM
Heh.  I was actually thinking that if Erdogan was not a Muslim he'd be viewed more like Sarkosy.

There's no way a conservative would go against the wine lobby in France. Now, a dhimmi socialist...  :frog: :hmm:

Choose the restricted substance appropriate to your culture.

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2013, 06:38:36 PM
Its really strange the way supposidely hip lefty young Turkish kids rally around the iamge of a right wing douche of 80 years past. :hmm:

Quote from: Tamas on June 13, 2013, 03:41:19 AM

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2013, 06:38:36 PM
Its really strange the way supposidely hip lefty young Turkish kids rally around the iamge of a right wing douche of 80 years past. :hmm:

that right wing douche saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization, instead of islam retardedness.

Quote from: Tamas on June 13, 2013, 06:37:56 AM
Maybe, just MAYBE, and I am REALLY stretching my imagination here, but bear with me Raz:

MAYBE HE KNEW HIS PEOPLE AND COUNTRYMEN'S TENDENCIES EVEN BEFORE FUCKTARD ISLAM TRIBALIST MOONWORSHIP BECAME FRONT PAGE NEWS FOR AMERICANS!


FFS man

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 06:43:03 AM
And maybe Lenin and Stalin knew their countrymen's tendencies when they "saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization,"  This bigotry thing is unbecoming of you.  I expect that from Viking, cause he's nuts.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM
Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 06:43:03 AM
And maybe Lenin and Stalin knew their countrymen's tendencies when they "saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization,"  This bigotry thing is unbecoming of you.  I expect that from Viking, cause he's nuts.

Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Quote from: Valmy on June 13, 2013, 10:47:33 AM
Can I compare him to Hitler?

Quote from: grumbler on June 13, 2013, 10:47:07 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM
Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Better than comparing him to Napoleon, or Julius Caesar.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 13, 2013, 11:01:14 AM
Apparently there's going to be a referendum on the fate of the park. It seems a bit too late for that to work.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: grumbler on June 13, 2013, 10:47:07 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM
Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Better than comparing him to Napoleon, or Julius Caesar.

There a lots of comparisons that don't work.  Like JS Bach, Liza Minnelli, or Jared from Subway.

Quote from: Maximus on June 13, 2013, 11:43:37 AM
Was Ataturk involved in the Armenian thing? If my memory serves he must have been at some level. A quick google turns up some not so impartial sites.

QuoteThese left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule ... They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow ... Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish youth to satisfy the criminal ambition of Enver Pasha, has, in a cowardly fashion, intrigued against my life, as well as the lives of the members of my cabinet.

Quote from: Maximus on June 13, 2013, 11:43:37 AM
Was Ataturk involved in the Armenian thing? If my memory serves he must have been at some level. A quick google turns up some not so impartial sites.

Quote from: Maximus on June 13, 2013, 11:55:10 AM
Well yea he was a general at Gallipolli. My impression was the genocide was later. Not sure at what point he went from being a general to being president or whatever.

Quote from: Maximus on June 13, 2013, 11:55:10 AM
Well yea he was a general at Gallipolli. My impression was the genocide was later. Not sure at what point he went from being a general to being president or whatever.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 06:43:03 AM
And maybe Lenin and Stalin knew their countrymen's tendencies when they "saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization,"  This bigotry thing is unbecoming of you.  I expect that from Viking, cause he's nuts.

Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Quote from: PDH on June 13, 2013, 11:40:49 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: grumbler on June 13, 2013, 10:47:07 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM
Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Better than comparing him to Napoleon, or Julius Caesar.

There a lots of comparisons that don't work.  Like JS Bach, Liza Minnelli, or Jared from Subway.

Though the Liza Minnelli one does work on a few levels...

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 03:58:02 PM
Could ""saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization," be used to describe those two men?

QuoteEveryone who enters Taksim Square, the heart of nearly 20-day-long protests against the government, will be considered a member or a supporter of a terrorist organization, Turkey's European Union minister said in a televised interview late last night.

"I requests our citizens, who supported the protests until today, to kindly return their homes," Minister Egemen Bağış said in an interview on broadcaster A Haber.

"From now on the state will unfortunately have to consider everyone who remains there as a supporter or member of a terror organization," he said. "Our prime minister has already assured [activist] about their aim with the protests. The protests from now on will play into hands of some separatist organizations which want to break peace and prioritize vandalism and terrorism."

Highest ranking Turkish officials have been posting warnings on the issue and everyone should act in a sensitive manner, he said.

Clashes between the police and protesters in Istanbul continued around the square along with some other parts of the city until this morning.

Bağış repeated his criticism on foreign media for exaggerating the protests in Turkey.

"Unfortunately, the foreign press is in a big mistake in this issue," he said, saying that they wanted to reflect Turkey as a country where life is halted.

"Hours-long broadcasting which are even not interrupted by commercials, have damaged Turkey's image," he said.

"But these long broadcastings sure have a financial reason, and these will be revealed. International channels such as BBC, CNN never do such broıadcasting without any advertisement. Somebody, somehow financed these broadcasts, Like our prime minister said, the loss of the interest rate lobby has exceeded $650 billion in turkey due to the low interest rates," he said adding that this was a a result of the government's dedication. "They are crazy about this, and making everything to disturb the clam in our country and win back their losses."

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2013, 04:39:37 AM
:huh:

And yesterday they gassed a nearby luxury hotel because some protesters fled inside.

So I see two possible explanations for this:

-Erdogan went batshit power-crazy and couldn't read the situation to save his life, which of course means he is totally unfit to lead the country
-He knows perfectly well what he is doing, and intends to escalate the protests because he has an agenda on coming out stronger from the whole thing.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 05:45:41 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 03:58:02 PM
Could ""saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization," be used to describe those two men?

Not really, as per Yi Lenin & Stalin backed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, while Ataturk opposed Sevres.
More to the point, the fact that two people have attribute X in common doesn't support a more general comparison.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 10:52:22 AM
And Lenin and Stalin fought against the efforts to see Russia turned into spheres of influence by the Allies.  Lenin and Kemal were both dictators, and they were both strongmen who attempted to modernize their countries.  In fact, I was under the impression that Kemal's goverment was quite friendly with the Soviets.

QuoteThe police raids that started on Saturday afternoon and quickly cleared and occupied Gezi Park included acts of startling brutality that outraged normally apolitical Istanbul citizens, as well as human rights monitors.

Impromptu medical clinics housed in tents were invaded and tear-gassed. A luxury hotel on Taksim Square being used as an emergency refuge for victims and for the wounded was repeatedly invaded by the police and tear gas fired into the enclosed spaces.

"It was horrible in there," said Mehmet Polat, 32. "They shot teargas inside the hotel several times, the gas rose up to the sixth floor of the hotel, everything was filled with white smoke."

Another young man next to him nodded. "People were shoving each other, panicking, but the police kept attacking us." Both were not giving up. "Our demands are very clear," Polat said. "And until they are met, we are not going anywhere."

But on Sunday Turkey's minister for European affairs, Egemen Bagis, said any civilians entering Taksim Square would be viewed as terrorists. Gezi Park was completely cleared of the gaudy paraphernalia of pluralist protest that had been its hallmark.

Stands, tents and banners were all gone. The central park fountain, hung with flags of a wide array of political factions on Saturday morning, was adorned with one single Turkish flag the following morning.

Istanbul's governor, Huseyin Avni Mutlu, said no one would be allowed to return to the park to protest.

Erdogan's confrontational style, his divisive rhetoric and the extreme force used by the police on victims who included young children, with one pregnant woman losing her baby on Saturday evening, have tarnished his credentials internationally as a reformist Muslim leader.

But the strong-arm tactics do not appear to have closed down the protests and have sown dismay among many non-political Turks.

One policeman guarding the entrance to Gezi Park said he was not happy with the way things were going: "The government is working against the people, and they are using the police to do it. They are handling it very badly. I hate doing this."

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 12:21:50 PM
Kemal was one of many early 20th century strongmen and simply because he had "Firm resolve and drove his country to modernism" doesn't mean we should all fall over ourselves saying what a great guy he was.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 12:48:42 PM
Did Tamas do that?  I missed it.

edit:  I also don't see what Lenin and Stalin have to do with that statement.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
Also strongmen with a firm resolve who modernized their nations.  Social engineering and Atheism a bonus.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on June 16, 2013, 01:09:40 PM
Turkey is much better off today than it would have been without Ataturk. Can the same be said of Lenin and Russia?

QuoteParadise Lost about the destruction of Smyrna is really interesting.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 06:43:03 AM
And maybe Lenin and Stalin knew their countrymen's tendencies when they "saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization,"  This bigotry thing is unbecoming of you.  I expect that from Viking, cause he's nuts.

Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
Thinking back, I saw a woman wearing a headscarf yesterday.  Strangely I was not driven into a rage over it.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 01:16:25 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
Also strongmen with a firm resolve who modernized their nations.  Social engineering and Atheism a bonus.

Point taken.  Being a strongman with firm resolve who modernizes a nation is not a sufficient condition to warrant falling all over oneself saying what a great guy he was.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
Kemal wasn't against Revolution.  The ideology of Kemalism is


Republicanism
Nationalism
Populism
Secularism
Statism
Revolutionism

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
The main people who try to convince us Kemal was a god are Turks so maybe Raz thinks he is on a Turkish nationalist forum?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 03:28:08 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
The main people who try to convince us Kemal was a god are Turks so maybe Raz thinks he is on a Turkish nationalist forum?

I think it's more likely that Raz is mischaracterizing Tamas' position, the easier to discredit it.

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2013, 03:21:24 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
Thinking back, I saw a woman wearing a headscarf yesterday.  Strangely I was not driven into a rage over it.

Glad you are getting out out of the house.

Are you supposed to be driven into a rage over it? :hmm:

Because I see them everyday on campus and was not aware about this requirement.

QuoteThat said, I readily admit that I am unable to be objective in this.

Maybe because I only occasionally venture into western Europe and I haven't gotten used to this, but every time I saw a jerk arab guy in shorts and T shirt and his women covered completely in heavy black clothing... That needs to stop.

Tamas was giving me a rage vibe here.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:33:19 PM
A curious response, since I never attempted argue that anyone was saying Kemal was a god.

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
Still Tamas's position is pretty boneheaded.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 01:19:10 PM

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on June 16, 2013, 01:09:40 PM
Turkey is much better off today than it would have been without Ataturk. Can the same be said of Lenin and Russia?

It's certainly less Greek.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 03:47:50 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:33:19 PM
A curious response, since I never attempted argue that anyone was saying Kemal was a god.

A curious response, as I never claimed you did.  Valmy proposed an explanation for your position, I proposed an alternative.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 04:28:59 PM
Your alternative was based on faulty information.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 04:36:43 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 04:28:59 PM
Your alternative was based on faulty information.

Please elaborate.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 04:39:40 PM
I thought it was clear.  Valmy was wrong in claiming I said that people were trying to make Kemal a god.  Therefore any alternative interpretation is tainted by incorrect facts.

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2013, 04:03:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
Still Tamas's position is pretty boneheaded.

ISn't that from the french vail thread?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 04:44:00 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 04:39:40 PM
I thought it was clear.  Valmy was wrong in claiming I said that people were trying to make Kemal a god.  Therefore any alternative interpretation is tainted by incorrect facts.

For an alternate interpretation to be tainted by incorrect facts it would have to rely on those incorrect facts as a basis for the argument.  I did not base my interpretation on the assumption that you said people were trying to make Kemal a god.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
Then what was your interpretation on?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 05:57:02 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
Then what was your interpretation on?

Your posting history and Tamas'.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 06:00:20 PM
Ah, then I see the confusion as Valmy has little to do with that.

QuoteThen perhaps you would like to elaborate on that.

QuoteTurkish government says it may use army to end protests

The Turkish government has said it may use the armed forces to end nearly three weeks of unrest by protesters in Istanbul and other cities.

The government would use "all its powers" and "the Turkish armed forces in cities" if necessary, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on TV.

It is the first time the Islamist-rooted ruling party has threatened to use the military against protesters.

The issue is sensitive as the army is seen as a bastion of secularism.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told hundreds of thousands of supporters at a rally in Istanbul on Sunday that the protesters were manipulated by "terrorists".

Trade unions have called a strike to protest against the police crackdown on demonstrators which has seen some 500 people arrested.

Medical officials estimate that 5,000 people have been injured and at least four killed in the unrest.

The protests began on 28 May against a plan to redevelop Istanbul's Gezi Park, on the city's central Taksim Square, but it snowballed into nationwide anti-government protests after the perceived high-handed response of the authorities under their three-term prime minister.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 04:39:40 PM
Valmy was wrong in claiming I said that people were trying to make Kemal a god.

Quotefalling all over oneself saying what a great guy he was

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 05:07:17 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2013, 04:03:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
Still Tamas's position is pretty boneheaded.

ISn't that from the french vail thread?

So?

Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2013, 08:56:38 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 05:07:17 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2013, 04:03:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
Still Tamas's position is pretty boneheaded.

ISn't that from the french vail thread?

So?

I am not sure if I am happy about Raz keeping logs of what I post and then quoting me in the wrong thread to prove whatever point is feeding his inner troll of the day.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 16, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
Kemal deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Chiang Kai-Shek, Peron, or any other complicated mid-20th Century grand political figure who attempted to forge a third way between a faltering Liberalism and revolution.  I think comparisons with early Mussolini make a lot of sense.

Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2013, 09:09:15 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2013, 08:56:38 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 05:07:17 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2013, 04:03:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
Still Tamas's position is pretty boneheaded.

ISn't that from the french vail thread?

So?

I am not sure if I am happy about Raz keeping logs of what I post and then quoting me in the wrong thread to prove whatever point is feeding his inner troll of the day.

Are you claiming that he is stalking you? :yeahright:

All he did was happen to quote a recent post of yours from one thread into another. Teh horrors!1

Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2013, 09:28:41 AM
One point which looked pretty silly if it was written in this thread.

Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2013, 09:28:41 AMAnyways, I am honestly sorry I broke silence on this. The juveline attempts to try and out-logic each other on inane shit can grow to tiresome levels and I see you are at it, and Hod forbid that Raz actually gets here while I give a fuck.

Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2013, 10:52:34 AM
Ease off, I am not playing today.

Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2013, 10:33:22 AM


I'm being juvenile by pointing out that you made a statement in another thread and that you really shouldn't get that worked up when Raz quotes it elsewhere? After all, Yi already quickly pointed out that Raz was misconstruing your original point.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2013, 09:27:00 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 16, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
Kemal deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Chiang Kai-Shek, Peron, or any other complicated mid-20th Century grand political figure who attempted to forge a third way between a faltering Liberalism and revolution.  I think comparisons with early Mussolini make a lot of sense.

Pilsudski would be a better comp, I think.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 17, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
Pilsudski's Poland was extremely multiethnic, and Pilsudski was a-okay with that. Ataturk exiled the only ethnicities in Turkey with decent literacy rates or commercial skills, and then proceeded to attempt to eradicate all "foreign" influence from the country, including such a rapid, complete reformation of the language that most Turks barely understand his early speeches, and the violent repression of the only substantial minority left. Mussolini works.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2013, 10:59:17 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 17, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
Pilsudski's Poland was extremely multiethnic, and Pilsudski was a-okay with that. Ataturk exiled the only ethnicities in Turkey with decent literacy rates or commercial skills, and then proceeded to attempt to eradicate all "foreign" influence from the country, including such a rapid, complete reformation of the language that most Turks barely understand his early speeches, and the violent repression of the only substantial minority left. Mussolini works.

If you mean the Greeks, then their removal was a good thing.  You can't pretend like it was possible for Western Anatolia to be some kind of multi-ethnic paradise, what with the Megali Idea and all that.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 12:46:12 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2013, 10:59:17 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 17, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
Pilsudski's Poland was extremely multiethnic, and Pilsudski was a-okay with that. Ataturk exiled the only ethnicities in Turkey with decent literacy rates or commercial skills, and then proceeded to attempt to eradicate all "foreign" influence from the country, including such a rapid, complete reformation of the language that most Turks barely understand his early speeches, and the violent repression of the only substantial minority left. Mussolini works.

If you mean the Greeks, then their removal was a good thing.  You can't pretend like it was possible for Western Anatolia to be some kind of multi-ethnic paradise, what with the Megali Idea and all that.

Both nations were exhausted, and Greece has effectively protected the Muslim population in Thrace, while Inonu and Ataturk presided over constant persecution of the remaining Greek population of Istanbul.  Also, the Armenians were effectively without a state after the Russian Revolution, and their expulsion from historical Armenia only accomplished the total impoverishment of Eastern Anatolia.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 17, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
Pilsudski's Poland was extremely multiethnic, and Pilsudski was a-okay with that. Ataturk exiled the only ethnicities in Turkey with decent literacy rates or commercial skills, and then proceeded to attempt to eradicate all "foreign" influence from the country, including such a rapid, complete reformation of the language that most Turks barely understand his early speeches, and the violent repression of the only substantial minority left.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2013, 01:52:55 PM

Pilsudski tolerated other ethnicities and religions only to the extent they maintained absolute loyalty to the Polish state.  As most of the Polish minorities chose not to test him, we can only speculate what would have happened otherwise, but I would expect a less than relaxed response.  Accusing Kemal of attempting to eradicate "foreign" influence is also very odd given his strong Europeanizing tendencies.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
He butchered the language and helped feed a lot of bizarre, Yule Society-ish nationalist pseduo-scholarship that is still surprisingly popular there.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2013, 06:23:57 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
He butchered the language and helped feed a lot of bizarre, Yule Society-ish nationalist pseduo-scholarship that is still surprisingly popular there.

He truly is worse than Stalin after all!

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2013, 06:23:57 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
He butchered the language and helped feed a lot of bizarre, Yule Society-ish nationalist pseduo-scholarship that is still surprisingly popular there.

He truly is worse than Stalin after all!

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 06:47:02 PM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2013, 06:23:57 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
He butchered the language and helped feed a lot of bizarre, Yule Society-ish nationalist pseduo-scholarship that is still surprisingly popular there.

He truly is worse than Stalin after all!

:D
You don't have to spend hundreds of hours studying it.  It's butchered and hideous.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2013, 06:23:57 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
He butchered the language and helped feed a lot of bizarre, Yule Society-ish nationalist pseduo-scholarship that is still surprisingly popular there.

He truly is worse than Stalin after all!

Quote from: Queequeg on June 19, 2013, 12:50:57 AM
I'm comparing him to Chiang Kai-Shek.  Considering that until recently Turks were thrown in jail for not comparing him to Jesus, it's a real insult.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 19, 2013, 12:50:57 AM
I'm comparing him to Chiang Kai-Shek.