Turkish police use tear gas, injure dozens in break up of protests

Started by Syt, June 01, 2013, 01:43:40 AM

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Admiral Yi

#210
June 16, 2013, 12:28:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 12:21:50 PM
Kemal was one of many early 20th century strongmen and simply because he had "Firm resolve and drove his country to modernism" doesn't mean we should all fall over ourselves saying what a great guy he was.

Agreed.  Anyone who falls all over themselves saying what a great guy he is simply because he had a firm resolve and drove his country to modernism is in the wrong.

Razgovory

#211
June 16, 2013, 12:29:57 PM
I'm glad we agree that Tamas is wrong then.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Admiral Yi

#212
June 16, 2013, 12:48:42 PM
Did Tamas do that?  I missed it.

edit:  I also don't see what Lenin and Stalin have to do with that statement.

Razgovory

#213
June 16, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 12:48:42 PM
Did Tamas do that?  I missed it.

edit:  I also don't see what Lenin and Stalin have to do with that statement.

Also strongmen with a firm resolve who modernized their nations.  Social engineering and Atheism a bonus.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Grinning_Colossus

#214
June 16, 2013, 01:09:40 PM Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 01:12:07 PM by Grinning_Colossus
Turkey is much better off today than it would have been without Ataturk. Can the same be said of Lenin and Russia?
Quis futuit ipsos fututores?

Admiral Yi

#215
June 16, 2013, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
Also strongmen with a firm resolve who modernized their nations.  Social engineering and Atheism a bonus.

Point taken.  Being a strongman with firm resolve who modernizes a nation is not a sufficient condition to warrant falling all over oneself saying what a great guy he was.

Razgovory

#216
June 16, 2013, 01:19:10 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on June 16, 2013, 01:09:40 PM
Turkey is much better off today than it would have been without Ataturk. Can the same be said of Lenin and Russia?

It's certainly less Greek.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Queequeg

#217
June 16, 2013, 03:08:31 PM
QuoteParadise Lost about the destruction of Smyrna is really interesting.
This book gets a lot of basic facts wrong, and it's bizarre arguments about numbers of Armenian deaths during the Genocide is unhinged. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Razgovory

#218
June 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
Thinking back, I saw a woman wearing a headscarf yesterday.  Strangely I was not driven into a rage over it.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Queequeg

#219
June 16, 2013, 03:11:32 PM Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 03:22:55 PM by Queequeg
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 13, 2013, 10:39:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2013, 06:43:03 AM
And maybe Lenin and Stalin knew their countrymen's tendencies when they "saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization,"  This bigotry thing is unbecoming of you.  I expect that from Viking, cause he's nuts.

Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???
Kemal deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Chiang Kai-Shek, Peron, or any other complicated mid-20th Century grand political figure who attempted to forge a third way between a faltering Liberalism and revolution.  I think comparisons with early Mussolini make a lot of sense. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Razgovory

#220
June 16, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
Kemal wasn't against Revolution.  The ideology of Kemalism is


Republicanism
Nationalism
Populism
Secularism
Statism
Revolutionism

I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

#221
June 16, 2013, 03:21:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
Thinking back, I saw a woman wearing a headscarf yesterday.  Strangely I was not driven into a rage over it.

Glad you are getting out out of the house.

Are you supposed to be driven into a rage over it? :hmm:

Because I see them everyday on campus and was not aware about this requirement.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

#222
June 16, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2013, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
Also strongmen with a firm resolve who modernized their nations.  Social engineering and Atheism a bonus.

Point taken.  Being a strongman with firm resolve who modernizes a nation is not a sufficient condition to warrant falling all over oneself saying what a great guy he was.

The main people who try to convince us Kemal was a god are Turks so maybe Raz thinks he is on a Turkish nationalist forum?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Queequeg

#223
June 16, 2013, 03:23:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
Kemal wasn't against Revolution.  The ideology of Kemalism is


Republicanism
Nationalism
Populism
Secularism
Statism
Revolutionism
I meant a specifically Leftist variety of revolution.  Mussolini talked about a "Fascist Revolution." 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Admiral Yi

#224
June 16, 2013, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
The main people who try to convince us Kemal was a god are Turks so maybe Raz thinks he is on a Turkish nationalist forum?

I think it's more likely that Raz is mischaracterizing Tamas' position, the easier to discredit it.
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