Turkish police use tear gas, injure dozens in break up of protests

[Syt]

My colleague from Turkey tells me that the reports in the media completely overstate the demonstrations and violence, and that at least 75% of he people in Istanbul are against the demonstrations.

[Tamas]

well, an Erdogan supporter will say that. And of course what he does must have popular support. It's a country between the Balkans and the Middle East, after all.
Plus Raz is on the government's side so the protesters must be wrong.


That doesn't change the apparent fact that these are major demonstrations, and there is a crackdown. This is maybe the last stop before proper Erdoganland is formed.

Also, it is hillarious how the Orban-fans on blog comments are in a frenzy over protests. I mean of course blaming the communists and jews for triggering them,and for blowing it out of proportions.
I think they got genuinely scared  The similarities are too striking to ignore - a government slowly destroying the old order with the apparent silent approval of the masses, and then BOOM all hell breaks loose.

[Neil]

There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Oh, I think it is.  Dawkins himself signed a petitions to outlaw the teaching of religion on the UK, has said that teaching religion to children is as bad as child abuse, and his meme theory attacks the idea of freedom of speech and religion.

Yeah, but thinking isn't exactly your strong suit.  Dawkins is a complete and utter dick, but most of his followers tend towards elitism, not authoritarianism.  They generally reject the idea of anyone telling them what to do, which is where their whole problem with religion comes from in the first place.

[Sheilbh]

Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism

[Viking]

Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism

Hayek sort of made the point that Idealistic Elitism leads to Authoritarianism.

Besides, in Dawkins' world peopel aren't elites, ideas are elites.

[Valmy]

I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

When the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

True but what does that have to do with this situation?  Unless peaceful protests is how one carries out a military coup these days.

[Neil]

Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism

So?  They're an uncontrollable mess of retards who think that they're the smartest people in the room, and that only the smartest people in the room should have a say.  My point is that I am right, everyone else is wrong, and you're a terrible person for hating on people who want movies based on old properties to bear some resemblance to those properties.

[Viking]

I wouldn't have expected so many people to be endorsing military dictatorship.

When the alternative is a democracy self-devolving into theocracy, military dictatorship doesn't seem like a half-bad alternative.  It's a vicious circle, you don't teach people to defend democratic institutions by instituting dictatorship, but theocracy doesn't quite do that either.

True but what does that have to do with this situation?  Unless peaceful protests is how one carries out a military coup these days.

It's the same situation as the Egyptian Army is in. They probably want to carry out a coup but their close relationship to the US military means that they cant' without breaking that vital relationship.

[Valmy]

It's the same situation as the Egyptian Army is in. They probably want to carry out a coup but their close relationship to the US military means that they cant' without breaking that vital relationship.

The military has always acted a bit too prematurely in defense of the Republic in the past, in I think the overall impact was to weaken it.  If the AKP actually goes as far as to institute a council of unelected Clerics a la Iran I could see it being justified.  In this case the AKP is over-reaching.  Best to just wait and see how events unfold.  Besides it is not like the Turkish countryside is going to be full of bumpkins reliably voting AKP forever.

But anyway these protests are people who disagree with specific government policies speaking out peacefully.  Not sure why that gets associated with military dictatorship.

[Razgovory]

There is a strong authoritarian streak in the Dawkin fans.

I don't think that's quite right.

Oh, I think it is.  Dawkins himself signed a petitions to outlaw the teaching of religion on the UK, has said that teaching religion to children is as bad as child abuse, and his meme theory attacks the idea of freedom of speech and religion.

He signed a petition trying to ban the teaching of religion as if it were true in government schools in the UK. He wishes the UK law on the issue to be like the US law. He considers threatening children with the fear of hell as equivalent to child abuse. He agrees with Dan Dennet in teaching it as literature and that teaching comparative religion is probably the best way (apart from reading the bible cover to cover) to de-convert the religious. His meme hypothesis does not attack anything.

I have no desire to discuss this with you, but did see the need, just in case anybody takes you seriously, that you are completely wrong.

The petition he signed read

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make it illegal to indoctrinate or define children by religion before the age of 16.

    In order to encourage free thinking, children should not be subjected to any regular religious teaching or be allowed to be defined as belonging to a particular religious group based on the views of their parents or guardians.

When called on it, he backed off.  However his child abuse statements betray him here.  If you claim equivalency between a legal act and a criminal act, (in this case particularity heinous criminal act), then a person can only draw two conclusions from your statement.  A: the criminal act should be not be criminal and should be legal or B: the legal act should be criminalized.  So unless he has desire to make child abuse legal, I'd say he has a desire to make teaching religion to a child illegal.  One of the ideas behind "Memes" is that we don't really have ideas.  We are simply a medium for ideas to hop around evolving and propagating.  When talking about religion he starts talking about "Virus of the Mind".  If people aren't actually having ideas, and they are just mind viruses that severely undermines freedom of speech and religion.  You don't have a right to carry around potentially harmful viruses do you?  Of course not.

[Razgovory]

It would appear that you are prime example of the authoritarian streak in the Dawkinites.  You just endorsed dictatorship.

No I did not you blithering idiot. I was preferring the lesser of two evils when democracy is not possible.

No, you are preferring a dictatorship to democracy where people elect things you don't like.  It's the line used by despots the world over.  "If those people get elected there won't be anymore freedoms, so we have to step in to prevent it.  Who, "Those people" are often changes: Socialists, liberals, Jews, conservatives, etc but the solution is the same.  We remove the rights of the people to elect their own government cause we don't trust them with it.

[Razgovory]

Elitism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism

So?  They're an uncontrollable mess of retards who think that they're the smartest people in the room, and that only the smartest people in the room should have a say.  My point is that I am right, everyone else is wrong, and you're a terrible person for hating on people who want movies based on old properties to bear some resemblance to those properties.

Wait, what?  You lost me on the last part.

[Jacob]

Blogpost from the ground, so to speak: http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

[Razgovory]

Blogpost from the ground, so to speak: http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

Sounds more like "Occupy Istanbul" then, "We must stop the theocracy!".

[Valmy]

Sounds more like "Occupy Istanbul" then, "We must stop the theocracy!".

Doesn't really sound like they are demanding a military dictatorship either oddly.