Turkish police use tear gas, injure dozens in break up of protests

[Sheilbh]

Was Ataturk involved in the Armenian thing? If my memory serves he must have been at some level. A quick google turns up some not so impartial sites.

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. I have a biography to read, but I think he made his name in Gallipoli which was around the same time. He was involved in Smyrna though.

[Maximus]

Well yea he was a general at Gallipolli. My impression was the genocide was later. Not sure at what point he went from being a general to being president or whatever.

[Valmy]

Well yea he was a general at Gallipolli. My impression was the genocide was later. Not sure at what point he went from being a general to being president or whatever.

The Young Turks were in power right up until Turkey surrendered.  And by Turkey I mean the Ottoman Empire.

[Sheilbh]

Well yea he was a general at Gallipolli. My impression was the genocide was later. Not sure at what point he went from being a general to being president or whatever.

That happened in the early 1920s. The allies had carved up Turkey to make a 'Greater Greece' and the rest as zones of influence:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG
Ataturk rebuilt the army in the centre of Anatolia. I think after a pretty torrid campaign when the Greeks reached far into Anatolia he successfully started to beat them back, eventually forcing all foreign troops out of Turkey (by this point most of the Allies had stopped caring and made their own deals with the Turks) and created Turkey as we know her now.

In the process he destroyed Smyrna in an absolute massacre and hundreds of thousands of Greeks were forced out of Anatolia and hundreds of thousands of Muslims out of Thrace. In fairness, from what I've read the Greeks were burning everything they could during their retreat so the Turks didn't have much sympathy by the time they reached Smyrna.

Paradise Lost about the destruction of Smyrna is really interesting. This reminds me I really need to read that biography.

[Razgovory]

And maybe Lenin and Stalin knew their countrymen's tendencies when they "saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization,"  This bigotry thing is unbecoming of you.  I expect that from Viking, cause he's nuts.

Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Could ""saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization," be used to describe those two men?

[garbon]

Comparing Ataturk to Lenin and Stalin???

Better than comparing him to Napoleon, or Julius Caesar.

There a lots of comparisons that don't work.  Like JS Bach, Liza Minnelli, or Jared from Subway.

Though the Liza Minnelli one does work on a few levels...

+1

[The Minsky Moment]

Could ""saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization," be used to describe those two men?

Not really, as per Yi Lenin & Stalin backed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, while Ataturk opposed Sevres.
More to the point, the fact that two people have attribute X in common doesn't support a more general comparison.

[Syt]

So, Erdogan gave the protestors till Sunday to clear Gezi and Taksim (officially, so his party can hold a rally on Taksim Square). General response from the protestors is, "No, you haven't addressed all our grievances yet."

So on Saturday evening, before the end of the ultimatum, the police take Gezi park by force, using water cannon and tear gas against the protestors who included many families with children.

Which in turn caused more protests throughout the country.

[Syt]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/police-to-consider-protesters-in-istanbuls-taksim-square-as-terror-organization-member-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48875&NewsCatID=338

Everyone who enters Taksim Square, the heart of nearly 20-day-long protests against the government, will be considered a member or a supporter of a terrorist organization, Turkey's European Union minister said in a televised interview late last night.

"I requests our citizens, who supported the protests until today, to kindly return their homes," Minister Egemen Bağış said in an interview on broadcaster A Haber.

"From now on the state will unfortunately have to consider everyone who remains there as a supporter or member of a terror organization," he said. "Our prime minister has already assured [activist] about their aim with the protests. The protests from now on will play into hands of some separatist organizations which want to break peace and prioritize vandalism and terrorism."

Highest ranking Turkish officials have been posting warnings on the issue and everyone should act in a sensitive manner, he said.

Clashes between the police and protesters in Istanbul continued around the square along with some other parts of the city until this morning.

Bağış repeated his criticism on foreign media for exaggerating the protests in Turkey.

"Unfortunately, the foreign press is in a big mistake in this issue," he said, saying that they wanted to reflect Turkey as a country where life is halted.

"Hours-long broadcasting which are even not interrupted by commercials, have damaged Turkey's image," he said.

"But these long broadcastings sure have a financial reason, and these will be revealed. International channels such as BBC, CNN never do such broıadcasting without any advertisement. Somebody, somehow financed these broadcasts, Like our prime minister said, the loss of the interest rate lobby has exceeded $650 billion in turkey due to the low interest rates," he said adding that this was a a result of the government's dedication. "They are crazy about this, and making everything to disturb the clam in our country and win back their losses."

[Tamas]

 

And yesterday they gassed a nearby luxury hotel because some protesters fled inside.

So I see two possible explanations for this:

-Erdogan went batshit power-crazy and couldn't read the situation to save his life, which of course means he is totally unfit to lead the country
-He knows perfectly well what he is doing, and intends to escalate the protests because he has an agenda on coming out stronger from the whole thing.

[Viking]

And yesterday they gassed a nearby luxury hotel because some protesters fled inside.

So I see two possible explanations for this:

-Erdogan went batshit power-crazy and couldn't read the situation to save his life, which of course means he is totally unfit to lead the country
-He knows perfectly well what he is doing, and intends to escalate the protests because he has an agenda on coming out stronger from the whole thing.

Never attribute to malice what can easily be attribute to incompetence.

[Razgovory]

Could ""saved their country from sliced-up colony status, and with a firm resolve put them on a course of modernization," be used to describe those two men?

Not really, as per Yi Lenin & Stalin backed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, while Ataturk opposed Sevres.
More to the point, the fact that two people have attribute X in common doesn't support a more general comparison.

And Lenin and Stalin fought against the efforts to see Russia turned into spheres of influence by the Allies.  Lenin and Kemal were both dictators, and they were both strongmen who attempted to modernize their countries.  In fact, I was under the impression that Kemal's goverment was quite friendly with the Soviets.

[Admiral Yi]

And Lenin and Stalin fought against the efforts to see Russia turned into spheres of influence by the Allies.  Lenin and Kemal were both dictators, and they were both strongmen who attempted to modernize their countries.  In fact, I was under the impression that Kemal's goverment was quite friendly with the Soviets.

What would you like us to conclude from this Raz?

[Razgovory]

Kemal was one of many early 20th century strongmen and simply because he had "Firm resolve and drove his country to modernism" doesn't mean we should all fall over ourselves saying what a great guy he was.

[Syt]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/16/turkey-unrest-clashes-istanbul-erdogan

The police raids that started on Saturday afternoon and quickly cleared and occupied Gezi Park included acts of startling brutality that outraged normally apolitical Istanbul citizens, as well as human rights monitors.

Impromptu medical clinics housed in tents were invaded and tear-gassed. A luxury hotel on Taksim Square being used as an emergency refuge for victims and for the wounded was repeatedly invaded by the police and tear gas fired into the enclosed spaces.

"It was horrible in there," said Mehmet Polat, 32. "They shot teargas inside the hotel several times, the gas rose up to the sixth floor of the hotel, everything was filled with white smoke."

Another young man next to him nodded. "People were shoving each other, panicking, but the police kept attacking us." Both were not giving up. "Our demands are very clear," Polat said. "And until they are met, we are not going anywhere."

But on Sunday Turkey's minister for European affairs, Egemen Bagis, said any civilians entering Taksim Square would be viewed as terrorists. Gezi Park was completely cleared of the gaudy paraphernalia of pluralist protest that had been its hallmark.

Stands, tents and banners were all gone. The central park fountain, hung with flags of a wide array of political factions on Saturday morning, was adorned with one single Turkish flag the following morning.

Istanbul's governor, Huseyin Avni Mutlu, said no one would be allowed to return to the park to protest.

Erdogan's confrontational style, his divisive rhetoric and the extreme force used by the police on victims who included young children, with one pregnant woman losing her baby on Saturday evening, have tarnished his credentials internationally as a reformist Muslim leader.

But the strong-arm tactics do not appear to have closed down the protests and have sown dismay among many non-political Turks.

One policeman guarding the entrance to Gezi Park said he was not happy with the way things were going: "The government is working against the people, and they are using the police to do it. They are handling it very badly. I hate doing this."