Today, I got into a discussion about the use of the term "Christmas". I mentioned to a couple of friends that I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do celebrate the holiday season. One of them took great offense at that, saying that if I celebrate the holiday season I obviously celebrate Christmas. My problem with that is that I do not celebrate the birth of Christ, which is the whole point of Christmas. So, I kind of feel like it's disinenguous to say that I celebrate Christmas. He said that the whole holiday is Christmas, not just the religious aspect, so I'm wrong in saying that I don't celebrate the holiday.
What says Languish on the subject?
The point of Christmas is to not argue over such things. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.backupot.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fohgodicantthinkofanonoffensivenameforthis_2.gif&hash=c04e996ead2a21e75085a8ee653ec87546356074)
White people problems.
A distinction without a difference. After all Christmas is just a Christian excuse to continue celebrating the symbolism of rebirth of the world with the Winter Solstice. I mean even for us who do celebrate Christ-like stuff the holiday really is not about that as getting together and celebrating another year gone by with everybody. I know you don't do the whole family thing but it sounds like you and Max make it special just the two of you.
So I challenge the notion it is disinenguous to say you don't celebrate Christmas just because you don't do the whole Christ thing. That part is pretty arbitrary anyway, as it is the symbolism of Jesus' birth that is the deal, not the fact that there is a 1/366 this may have been his birthday.
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:31:45 AM
White people problems.
What? In your opinion do other races lack the brain power to ponder on the nature of Holidays or something?
I say that you should punch your friend in the balls.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:35:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:31:45 AM
White people problems.
What? In your opinion do other races lack the brain power to ponder on the nature of Holidays or something?
It's a term used by Louis CK to describe problems that people who have no real problems have. I meant that most people probably do not bother with arguing about stuff like that. ;)
Calnac the Magnificent predicts that 'white people problems' will show up in Mart-generated threads often in the near future. :osama:
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 10:42:21 AM
Calnac the Magnificent predicts that 'white people problems' will show up in Mart-generated threads often in the near future. :osama:
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:33:30 AM
So I challenge the notion it is disinenguous to say you don't celebrate Christmas just because you don't do the whole Christ thing. That part is pretty arbitrary anyway, as it is the symbolism of Jesus' birth that is the deal, not the fact that there is a 1/366 this may have been his birthday.
That's kind of what I keep in the holster in case anyone gets all shitty with me telling them "Merry Christmas". I mean, you're accepting the day off from work, right? Enjoy the day off if that's all Christmas means to you.
You are wrong. You celebrate Christmas.
You celebrate whatever you damn well feel like.
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:39:27 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:35:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:31:45 AM
White people problems.
What? In your opinion do other races lack the brain power to ponder on the nature of Holidays or something?
It's a term used by Louis CK to describe problems that people who have no real problems have. I meant that most people probably do not bother with arguing about stuff like that. ;)
This is Languish. It's what we do here. :mellow:
Quote from: Faeelin on December 20, 2012, 10:52:35 AM
You celebrate whatever you damn well feel like.
That's right.......and call it what you want too.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 20, 2012, 10:54:54 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on December 20, 2012, 10:52:35 AM
You celebrate whatever you damn well feel like.
That's right.......and call it what you want too.
I don't think Meri is under the impression she is being oppressed here guys as much as I appreciate your bomb throwing anarchism :P
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 10:48:58 AM
You are wrong. You celebrate Christmas.
I prefer to say that I celebrate Yule, since the parts that I like are secular and historical in nature rather than Christmasy. :)
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:33:30 AM
So I challenge the notion it is disinenguous to say you don't celebrate Christmas just because you don't do the whole Christ thing. That part is pretty arbitrary anyway, as it is the symbolism of Jesus' birth that is the deal, not the fact that there is a 1/366 this may have been his birthday.
That's kind of what I keep in the holster in case anyone gets all shitty with me telling them "Merry Christmas". I mean, you're accepting the day off from work, right? Enjoy the day off if that's all Christmas means to you.
I never get shitty with anyone says something nice to me. When someone says Merry Christmas, I reply with, "Thank you! And happy holidays to you, too!"
As for accepting the day off from work, I don't have a choice of which day I take off, just like I don't have a choice on what counts as a weekend. The company is closed; I don't work.
I'm not being bitchy about this. I was actually trying to be respectful to those who actually celebrate Christ's birth as the important part of the holiday. I don't celebrate Kwanza or Hannakah either, but no one gets uppity when I say that even though I have some blue and white decorations on my tree and light candles during the season.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:58:28 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 10:48:58 AM
You are wrong. You celebrate Christmas.
I prefer to say that I celebrate Yule, since the parts that I like are secular and historical in nature rather than Christmasy. :)
Isn't the Yule the celebration when Odin drives all the spirits of the dead back into Hel?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wearysloth.com%2FGallery%2FActorsY%2F18859-28333.gif&hash=0a063a08389eff2a1a2d5fed8954b692576a6bfd)
Bah, humbug.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:56:55 AM
I don't think Meri is under the impression she is being oppressed here guys as much as I appreciate your bomb throwing anarchism :P
No, no. If anything, it's more of a different justification for not saying/celebrating "Christmas". I find it disrespectful to Christianity to say that I am doing so when I'm really not, but that doesn't seem to be how Christians take it.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:26:39 AM
What says Languish on the subject?
That you should celebrate whatever you wish, and even of you chose not to celebrate our opinion of you would not change :)
Christmas as we know it is mostly a commercial holyday invented in the late 19th century. People of the 17th century probably didn't celebrate Christmas with a tree&gifts. Traditions changes, people changes. If people are offended that you do not celebrate "Christmas", they are idiots, it's not their business.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 11:00:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:56:55 AM
I don't think Meri is under the impression she is being oppressed here guys as much as I appreciate your bomb throwing anarchism :P
No, no. If anything, it's more of a different justification for not saying/celebrating "Christmas". I find it disrespectful to Christianity to say that I am doing so when I'm really not, but that doesn't seem to be how Christians take it.
Its mainly just a pissup for them too; Easter might be more of a problem :hmm:
Quote from: viper37 on December 20, 2012, 11:02:44 AM
Christmas as we know it is mostly a commercial holyday invented in the late 19th century. People of the 17th century probably didn't celebrate Christmas with a tree&gifts. Traditions changes, people changes. If people are offended that you do not celebrate "Christmas", they are idiots, it's not their business.
If I am to believe Calvinist preachers they mostly celebrated it in the 17th century by eating, drinking heavily, and fornicating.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
Isn't the Yule the celebration when Odin drives all the spirits of the dead back into Hel?
So far as I know, it was what the ancient Germanic tribes called the month(s) of winter. There are a ton of stories that surround that month/time period, including the Odin one, but it wasn't what they called the story anymore than July is what we call the Independence War.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:58:28 AM
I never get shitty with anyone says something nice to me. When someone says Merry Christmas, I reply with, "Thank you! And happy holidays to you, too!"
Now this I do not get. Since it's pretty much established that the person wishing you a Merry Christmas celebrates Christmas himself, why would you not wish him a merry Christmas? I don't celebrate Hanukkah but if I knew someone who did I'd be sure to wish them a happy one. I even once wished a muslim acquaintance a happy Eid al-Fitr (boy did that throw him for a loop).
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 11:13:21 AM
Now this I do not get. Since it's pretty much established that the person wishing you a Merry Christmas celebrates Christmas himself, why would you not wish him a merry Christmas? I don't celebrate Hanukkah but if I knew someone who did I'd be sure to wish them a happy one. I even once wished a muslim acquaintance a happy Eid al-Fitr (boy did that throw him for a loop).
A thoughtful an interesting point.
For a terrorist lover.
I'm ambivalent on it. I know an Asian couple (both Buddhist) that have bought into Christmas big time. They believe nothing supernatural about any historical Jesus and don't even really know anything firm about Christianity itself. When they first got married they both really liked the whole Christmas tree, presents, cards etc stuff. To me personally, as an actual Christian, I'm not offended at all if they say they are "celebrating Christmas." I recognize that since at least the 19th century a secular set of traditions and holidays have evolved making Christmas possibly the biggest (or at worst second biggest) of America's "secular holidays." I do know for some people (on both the Christian / non-Christian side) it creates awkwardness that society has basically continued to call the secularized version "Christmas" but I'm ambivalent.
If you're non-Christian and you like all the secular traditions associated with the holiday season, I'm fine with you saying you celebrate Christmas. If you're non-Christian and you want to celebrate the traditions but not call it Christmas, I'm fine with that too.
I notice that more with Jewish people I know than atheists, though. Most atheists I know are fine celebrating secular Christmas and are unconcerned with what anyone thinks about it. For some reason the Jews I know vary between "we'll do a lot of the Christmas stuff but won't dare call it Christmas" to "we will intentionally not do any of the Christmas stuff, and we'll glare at you if you even ask if we have a Christmas tree up." I'll admit to not entirely "getting" that. I read an article in the Atlantic where a Jewish parent said "he couldn't put up a Christmas tree, the symbol of the religion his ancestors had fought against assimilating into." But as Christian I think that's nonsense. Christmas is not our biggest holiday, the Christmas tree is not part of our religious celebration and etc. A Jew with a Christmas tree is about as Christian as a Jew with an Easter bunny.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 11:00:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 10:56:55 AM
I don't think Meri is under the impression she is being oppressed here guys as much as I appreciate your bomb throwing anarchism :P
No, no. If anything, it's more of a different justification for not saying/celebrating "Christmas". I find it disrespectful to Christianity to say that I am doing so when I'm really not, but that doesn't seem to be how Christians take it.
I think you're just being pedantic about the term "Christmas". In reality Christmas has become rather secularized in our culture and even those who celebrate the religious aspect of it still probably spend more time on the secular stuff.
So how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 11:08:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
Isn't the Yule the celebration when Odin drives all the spirits of the dead back into Hel?
So far as I know, it was what the ancient Germanic tribes called the month(s) of winter. There are a ton of stories that surround that month/time period, including the Odin one, but it wasn't what they called the story anymore than July is what we call the Independence War.
The joke was there was nothing secular about Yule.
Independence War? Who calls it that?
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 11:07:06 AM
Quote from: viper37 on December 20, 2012, 11:02:44 AM
Christmas as we know it is mostly a commercial holyday invented in the late 19th century. People of the 17th century probably didn't celebrate Christmas with a tree&gifts. Traditions changes, people changes. If people are offended that you do not celebrate "Christmas", they are idiots, it's not their business.
If I am to believe Calvinist preachers they mostly celebrated it in the 17th century by eating, drinking heavily, and fornicating.
ahhh, traditions.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:58:28 AM
I never get shitty with anyone says something nice to me. When someone says Merry Christmas, I reply with, "Thank you! And happy holidays to you, too!"
Now this I do not get. Since it's pretty much established that the person wishing you a Merry Christmas celebrates Christmas himself, why would you not wish him a merry Christmas? I don't celebrate Hanukkah but if I knew someone who did I'd be sure to wish them a happy one. I even once wished a muslim acquaintance a happy Eid al-Fitr (boy did that throw him for a loop).
:huh:
Well, most of the time I do if I know that they celebrate Christmas, but just because someone says Merry Christmas, it doesn't necessarily follow that they celebrate Christmas. After all, I've known Jewish people who default to that if they're somewhere that's primarily Christian. A lot of people default to that because they assume that the person they're talking to is Christian. I prefer not to assume that. :)
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 11:19:05 AM
The joke was there was nothing secular about Yule.
I got the joke, but disagree with the premise. :sleep:
QuoteIndependence War? Who calls it that?
It was shorter typing than The War for Independence. We call it the Fourth of July, of course, which is similar to calling the celebrations in Yule "Yule". Same idea. It was a joke.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 11:18:52 AM
I think you're just being pedantic about the term "Christmas". In reality Christmas has become rather secularized in our culture and even those who celebrate the religious aspect of it still probably spend more time on the secular stuff.
So how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
If anything, I'm being literal with the meaning of the word, rather than pedantic about it. As for the rest, seriously? Come on now. You know me better than that. ;)
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 12:11:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 11:18:52 AM
I think you're just being pedantic about the term "Christmas". In reality Christmas has become rather secularized in our culture and even those who celebrate the religious aspect of it still probably spend more time on the secular stuff.
So how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
If anything, I'm being literal with the meaning of the word, rather than pedantic about it. As for the rest, seriously? Come on now. You know me better than that. ;)
:huh: Being literal is also being pedantic, at least in this case.
And the last part was a direct quote from Full Metal Jacket :P
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 12:05:04 PM
Well, most of the time I do if I know that they celebrate Christmas, but just because someone says Merry Christmas, it doesn't necessarily follow that they celebrate Christmas. After all, I've known Jewish people who default to that if they're somewhere that's primarily Christian.
Okay, then obviously in that case you'd know they're Jewish.
QuoteA lot of people default to that because they assume that the person they're talking to is Christian. I prefer not to assume that. :)
I think there's a very strong chance that they celebrate Christmas in some way if they're saying that. And at the very least you can be comfortable that they wouldn't be offended if you wished them a Merry Christmas because, you know, they just did that themselves.
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:31:45 AM
White people problems.
You wouldn't know anything about those, you filthy Russian. White people problems are for whites, not for Asian mongrel races.
At any rate Meri, your friend is right: You're crazy for trying to draw a distinction between old-style religious Christmas and new-style commercial Christmas. I suspect it has something to do with your love of peacocking how non-traditional you are.
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Yeah, 'cuz Christmas is so rarely celebrated :lol:
I tend to get annoyed with someone telling me "Happy Holidays". I don't do the "Merry Christmas" retort, but I feel like saying "Yeah, same bland meaningless expression back atcha"
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
It is because that paranoia of some religious wackos has them thinking people are trying to destroy Christmas and force people to say 'Happy Holidays'. So in the name of freedom they are forcing everybody to go 'Merry Christmas'.
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
:huh: Wish them "Happy Hanukkah" instead? What's the problem with doing that?
I'm an expert on the Jews and I can tell you there are some Jews who actually get irritated when people wish them "Merry Christmas" knowing full well that they are Jewish.
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
Beeb has won the thread.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
It is because that paranoia of some religious wackos has them thinking people are trying to destroy Christmas and force people to say 'Happy Holidays'. So in the name of freedom they are forcing everybody to go 'Merry Christmas'.
That sounds about right.
Probably the same crowd that thinks Obama is intentionally trying to "destroy America". :wacko:
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
:huh: Wish them "Happy Hanukkah" instead? What's the problem with doing that?
Well for starters Hanukkah is over... :hmm:
I have no problems celebrating Christmas as a Jew. In fact, I celebrate two of 'em - regular Christmas, and the Ukranian one. :D
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
Well for starters Hanukkah is over... :hmm:
I'm an expert on the Jews so I knew that. :shifty:
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:26:39 AM
Today, I got into a discussion about the use of the term "Christmas". I mentioned to a couple of friends that I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do celebrate the holiday season. One of them took great offense at that, saying that if I celebrate the holiday season I obviously celebrate Christmas. My problem with that is that I do not celebrate the birth of Christ, which is the whole point of Christmas. So, I kind of feel like it's disinenguous to say that I celebrate Christmas. He said that the whole holiday is Christmas, not just the religious aspect, so I'm wrong in saying that I don't celebrate the holiday.
What says Languish on the subject?
I say this is an indication of how deeply religious your corner of the world is. It is fairly normal for people around here to accept that not everyone (and perhaps even a minority) are Christian and celebrate the holiday season as such.
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 12:40:28 PM
I have no problems celebrating Christmas as a Jew. In fact, I celebrate two of 'em - regular Christmas, and the Ukranian one. :D
That's the way to do it. :thumbsup:
We have occasionally celebrated Ukrainian Christmas. It is rather nice actually. All the presents and Santa are done with, so it's much more family, religious and culturally oriented.
It's a shame the 12 meatless dishes aren't more tasty. :(
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
Because to them, it's another season altogether.
I hate how in the last 100 years it's become necessary to celebrate Christmas this time of year whether you are actually celebrating Christmas or not. I don't like the crass, commercialization of the secular Christmas traditions in the US. I am not Christian, so the whole nativity bit is lost to me. At the end of the day, the only things that I like about this time of year have to do with the historical aspects (green and red decor, singing carols (Christmas as well as Winter Wonderland-type), lights, celebrating winter) rather than anything to do with "Christmas", per se. And it really annoys the hell out of me that because I happen to live in the US, I'm somehow supposed to bow to that pressure since, well, it's the Christmas season!
I'm respectful of others - I haven't said a word to anyone who's been kind enough to give me a Christmas card or small bits of candy at the office other than a very cheerful, "Thank you!" But please don't push that holiday off on me.
@cc It's less about deep religious conviction and more about demographics, I think. When virtually everyone is a Christian or has Christian heritage it tends to be more of a non-issue.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:41:54 PM
I say this is an indication of how deeply religious your corner of the world is. It is fairly normal for people around here to accept that not everyone (and perhaps even a minority) are Christian and celebrate the holiday season as such.
I suspect that you are correct on this. :sleep:
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:44:47 PM
@cc It's less about deep religious conviction and more about demographics, I think. When virtually everyone is a Christian or has Christian heritage it tends to be more of a non-issue.
If everyone is a Christian or sees themselves as such isnt that the definition of a deeply religious area of the world?
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 12:40:28 PM
I have no problems celebrating Christmas as a Jew. In fact, I celebrate two of 'em - regular Christmas, and the Ukranian one. :D
Lucky for Carl.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
If everyone is a Christian or sees themselves as such isnt that the definition of a deeply religious area of the world?
I don't think so, no. You can self-identify as a Christian and not be particularly religious at all. For example, I'm an atheist but if I had to pick a religious greeting that I would want wished to me during the holidays, the only one that seems appropriate would be "Merry Christmas", since I at least
used to be nominally Christian and a number of my relatives are in fact still believers.
That said, in Kentucky a great majority ARE deeply religious Christians. Not sure about where Meri lives in downstate Illinois.
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
Well yeah nothing wrong with that. What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:48:58 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
If everyone is a Christian or sees themselves as such isnt that the definition of a deeply religious area of the world?
I don't think so, no. You can self-identify as a Christian and not be particularly religious at all. For example, I'm an atheist but if I had to pick a religious greeting that I would want wished to me during the holidays, the only one that seems appropriate would be "Merry Christmas", since I at least used to be nominally Christian and a number of my relatives are in fact still believers.
That said, in Kentucky a great majority ARE deeply religious Christians. Not sure about where Meri lives in downstate Illinois.
But that is the point Cal, even you as a non Christian living in an area which is dominated by Christians buy cards of a religious nature because that is the cultural norm in your area. Compare that to the kinds of cards that fly around these parts - almost all say Seasons Greetings etc.
That goes to Meri's point of people becoming offended if she chooses to go outside the cultural norm in her area which is defined by its Christianity.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays". I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that. I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday. :hmm:
Meh. It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?
Well yeah nothing wrong with that. What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.
Valmy wins the thread
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:51:59 PM
But that is the point Cal, even you as a non Christian living in an area which is dominated by Christians buy cards of a religious nature because that is the cultural norm in your area. Compare that to the kinds of cards that fly around these parts - almost all say Seasons Greetings etc.
That goes to Meri's point of people becoming offended if she chooses to go outside the cultural norm in her area which is defined by its Christianity.
The only point I'm trying to make (and probably not very clearly) is that I don't think it's correct to assume that just because a particular region has individuals of mostly Christian background means that region is also deeply religious. Obviously both Vancouver and Kentucky are poor examples for this... but what about say Denmark?
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
Well yeah nothing wrong with that. What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.
Exactly.
My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie. Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well. Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie. Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well. Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).
Yeah, that does seem a bit odd. Basically, she liked some of the Hanukkah things, but rather than just saying that, she made up a story about it.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays are more or less used interchangeably. I don't overthink it.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie. Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well. Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).
Yeah if you are going to celebrate Jew Holidays you need to celebrate Purim, that is the best one.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
Well yeah nothing wrong with that. What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.
I don't insist someone wish me a Merry Christmas-- I just think "Happy Holidays" is meaningless to the point of being annoying.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 20, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays are more or less used interchangeably. I don't overthink it.
Well yeah you are not a religious wacko.
I remember when the Obama administration announced that because of the ruling by several Federal Courts that article 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act was unconstitutional, the Feds would no longer attempt to challenge challenges to it in court. This seemingly boring bit about allocation of Judicial resources was taken, by the nutters in Texas, to mean Obama was no longer enforcing the laws and giving all power to teh Gays in an attempt to destroy Christian values, subvert the Constitution, and violated his oath of office. I mean there is nothing that those people will not take as persecution. So of course they rebel against the Nero-esque use of 'Happy Holidays'.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 01:08:33 PM
I don't insist someone wish me a Merry Christmas-- I just think "Happy Holidays" is meaningless to the point of being annoying.
I always just thought it referred to the Holiday Season, you know Thanksgiving through New Years (though some are saying it is Halloween through Valentine's...that is fine to). I think it was actually invented as a way for department stores to cover their Jew and Christian bases.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 12:43:55 PM
Because to them, it's another season altogether.
I hate how in the last 100 years it's become necessary to celebrate Christmas this time of year whether you are actually celebrating Christmas or not. I don't like the crass, commercialization of the secular Christmas traditions in the US. I am not Christian, so the whole nativity bit is lost to me. At the end of the day, the only things that I like about this time of year have to do with the historical aspects (green and red decor, singing carols (Christmas as well as Winter Wonderland-type), lights, celebrating winter) rather than anything to do with "Christmas", per se. And it really annoys the hell out of me that because I happen to live in the US, I'm somehow supposed to bow to that pressure since, well, it's the Christmas season!
I'm respectful of others - I haven't said a word to anyone who's been kind enough to give me a Christmas card or small bits of candy at the office other than a very cheerful, "Thank you!" But please don't push that holiday off on me.
Every society is going to have certain cultural traditions. I don't really see much value in rebelling against that, especially not for a middle aged adult.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:26:39 AM
Today, I got into a discussion about the use of the term "Christmas". I mentioned to a couple of friends that I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do celebrate the holiday season. One of them took great offense at that, saying that if I celebrate the holiday season I obviously celebrate Christmas. My problem with that is that I do not celebrate the birth of Christ, which is the whole point of Christmas. So, I kind of feel like it's disinenguous to say that I celebrate Christmas. He said that the whole holiday is Christmas, not just the religious aspect, so I'm wrong in saying that I don't celebrate the holiday.
What says Languish on the subject?
In my country we celebrate
jul.
Kristusmäss is unheard of.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:20:14 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 12:43:55 PM
Because to them, it's another season altogether.
I hate how in the last 100 years it's become necessary to celebrate Christmas this time of year whether you are actually celebrating Christmas or not. I don't like the crass, commercialization of the secular Christmas traditions in the US. I am not Christian, so the whole nativity bit is lost to me. At the end of the day, the only things that I like about this time of year have to do with the historical aspects (green and red decor, singing carols (Christmas as well as Winter Wonderland-type), lights, celebrating winter) rather than anything to do with "Christmas", per se. And it really annoys the hell out of me that because I happen to live in the US, I'm somehow supposed to bow to that pressure since, well, it's the Christmas season!
I'm respectful of others - I haven't said a word to anyone who's been kind enough to give me a Christmas card or small bits of candy at the office other than a very cheerful, "Thank you!" But please don't push that holiday off on me.
Every society is going to have certain cultural traditions. I don't really see much value in rebelling against that, especially not for a middle aged adult.
Because cultural traditions should not be forced on anyone, but especially a religious-based tradition in a multi-religious society.
Where did Otto say anything about forcing traditions on people? :huh:
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 01:08:12 PM
Yeah if you are going to celebrate Jew Holidays you need to celebrate Purim, that is the best one.
Dude, Passover seder :mmm:
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:51:59 PM
But that is the point Cal, even you as a non Christian living in an area which is dominated by Christians buy cards of a religious nature because that is the cultural norm in your area. Compare that to the kinds of cards that fly around these parts - almost all say Seasons Greetings etc.
That goes to Meri's point of people becoming offended if she chooses to go outside the cultural norm in her area which is defined by its Christianity.
The only point I'm trying to make (and probably not very clearly) is that I don't think it's correct to assume that just because a particular region has individuals of mostly Christian background means that region is also deeply religious. Obviously both Vancouver and Kentucky are poor examples for this... but what about say Denmark?
I dont understand what you are saying Cal. If most everyone around you is Chrisitian then by definition are you not in an area of high religiousity (to remove the "deeply" adjective which seems to have caused the difficulty).
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 01:28:18 PM
Where did Otto say anything about forcing traditions on people? :huh:
When he suggested it was immature to do otherwise ;)
Otto gets the seasonal cultural blinders award.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 01:28:18 PM
Where did Otto say anything about forcing traditions on people? :huh:
Yeah, what I'm responding to is this specifically:
QuoteAnd it really annoys the hell out of me that because I happen to live in the US, I'm somehow supposed to bow to that pressure since, well, it's the Christmas season!
That's what I find ridiculous. I'm not saying you need to go to Church for the Christmas season, put up a nativity scene, convert to Christianity or any of that. But maybe someone a bit more provincial than me has never really experienced a lot of different cultures doesn't understand how to go with the flow, having lived overseas quite a bit growing up I have taken part in lots of cultural activities and festivals that are not practiced here in America. The saying "when in Rome..." is just common sense. I'm not saying you need to decorate, need to put up a tree, need to even exchange gifts or do
anything to even recognize Christmas. I'm just saying it's a little unreasonable to be annoyed at a cultural tradition. Would you prefer there were no cultural traditions at all?
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 01:30:16 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:51:59 PM
But that is the point Cal, even you as a non Christian living in an area which is dominated by Christians buy cards of a religious nature because that is the cultural norm in your area. Compare that to the kinds of cards that fly around these parts - almost all say Seasons Greetings etc.
That goes to Meri's point of people becoming offended if she chooses to go outside the cultural norm in her area which is defined by its Christianity.
The only point I'm trying to make (and probably not very clearly) is that I don't think it's correct to assume that just because a particular region has individuals of mostly Christian background means that region is also deeply religious. Obviously both Vancouver and Kentucky are poor examples for this... but what about say Denmark?
I dont understand what you are saying Cal. If most everyone around you is Chrisitian then by definition are you not in an area of high religiousity (to remove the "deeply" adjective which seems to have caused the difficulty).
You're honestly horrible to discuss anything with. There are tons of countries in Europe for example with high majority officially Christian populations. Most social scientists will differentiate between areas like that, and say, the U.S. bible belt by looking at "annual church visits" and etc. A place that is 80% "Christian" but where 90% of the people attend Church once a year isn't really that religious.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 01:31:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 01:28:18 PM
Where did Otto say anything about forcing traditions on people? :huh:
When he suggested it was immature to do otherwise ;)
Otto gets the seasonal cultural blinders award.
What I'm suggesting is someone get over themselves if their complaint is "I find it annoying that in America it feels like I am being pressured to participate in the cultural traditions." Especially when it's just mild social pressure. Like I said, every culture has traditions, and when it's not anything harmful I see no reason why someone can't just make peace with that, even if they aren't a fan of that particular tradition.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:33:41 PM
That's what I find ridiculous. I'm not saying you need to go to Church for the Christmas season, put up a nativity scene, convert to Christianity or any of that. But maybe someone a bit more provincial than me has never really experienced a lot of different cultures doesn't understand how to go with the flow, having lived overseas quite a bit growing up I have taken part in lots of cultural activities and festivals that are not practiced here in America. The saying "when in Rome..." is just common sense. I'm not saying you need to decorate, need to put up a tree, need to even exchange gifts or do anything to even recognize Christmas. I'm just saying it's a little unreasonable to be annoyed at a cultural tradition. Would you prefer there were no cultural traditions at all?
:huh:
You obviously didn't read what I wrote further up the thread. The whole reason behind this thread was the idea that because I DO celebrate in a somewhat similar fashion, a friend told me that I HAD to say that I celebrated Christmas, even though I don't consider it so because I'm not Christian, I don't believe in the nativity, and I despise the crass commercialization of the "Christmas gift-giving season".
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
You're honestly horrible to discuss anything with.
Pot meet Kettle
QuoteThere are tons of countries in Europe for example with high majority officially Christian populations. Most social scientists will differentiate between areas like that, and say, the U.S. bible belt by looking at "annual church visits" and etc. A place that is 80% "Christian" but where 90% of the people attend Church once a year isn't really that religious.
And your point is what exactly? I dont think Cal is saying he lives in an area where 90% of the people go to church only once per year - do you.
For that matter if Meri lived in such an area why the heck are they so uppity about demanding people celebrate Christmas.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
What I'm suggesting is someone get over themselves if their complaint is "I find it annoying that in America it feels like I am being pressured to participate in the cultural traditions." Especially when it's just mild social pressure. Like I said, every culture has traditions, and when it's not anything harmful I see no reason why someone can't just make peace with that, even if they aren't a fan of that particular tradition.
The problem is that there are a myriad of winter traditions in the US, and forcing a particular one on any one is, to my mind, assinine.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:40:41 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
What I'm suggesting is someone get over themselves if their complaint is "I find it annoying that in America it feels like I am being pressured to participate in the cultural traditions." Especially when it's just mild social pressure. Like I said, every culture has traditions, and when it's not anything harmful I see no reason why someone can't just make peace with that, even if they aren't a fan of that particular tradition.
The problem is that there are a myriad of winter traditions in the US, and forcing a particular one on any one is, to my mind, assinine.
Except there aren't. There's just Christmas, which is celebrated in a myriad of different ways. :mellow:
I hate everybody.
:hmm:
Now that I know you are going to be attending midnight services on Christmas Eve I am sort of baffled how you do not celebrate Christmas. I mean I celebrate Ramadan every year and that involves me showing up one night at the Turkish Cultural center and being non-alcoholically wined and dined.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:40:41 PM
The problem is that there are a myriad of winter traditions in the US
:lol:
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
Except there aren't. There's just Christmas, which is celebrated in a myriad of different ways. :mellow:
:huh:
Yule
Winter Solstice
Hanukkah
Kwanzaa
Sadeh
Diwali
(I went to a UU service, and these were the ones that they celebrated alongside Christmas, as at least one person in the congregation celebrated one of these.)
But yeah, the Buddhist couple I know are a good example of how I think you should adapt to a new culture. They still teach their kid their native language, they aren't converting to Christianity, they still mostly cook their culture's dishes and still practice all their cultural traditions. But they also don't get butt hurt over the mild social emphasis on Christmas.
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 01:48:13 PM
:hmm:
Now that I know you are going to be attending midnight services on Christmas Eve I am sort of baffled how you do not celebrate Christmas. I mean I celebrate Ramadan every year and that involves me showing up one night at the Turkish Cultural center and being non-alcoholically wined and dined.
I don't go every year. I was invited by a friend to go this year, so I am. :mellow:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:53:40 PM
But yeah, the Buddhist couple I know are a good example of how I think you should adapt to a new culture. They still teach their kid their native language, they aren't converting to Christianity, they still mostly cook their culture's dishes and still practice all their cultural traditions. But they also don't get butt hurt over the mild social emphasis on Christmas.
So you're going to completely ignore that I'm not "butt hurt over the mild social emphasis on Christmas", are you? Okay. So now I know to completely ignore your posts in this thread.
And it's kind of ridiculous to claim that it's a "mild" social emphasis, too. :lol: That's like saying that a hurricane is a mild rain.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Um, Kwanzaa was created by an American for African-Americans. To claim that it has no cultural relevance is kind of stupid. And Yule has been adopted by Neo-Pagans as their celebration.
Otto's on fire! :lol:
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
Except there aren't. There's just Christmas, which is celebrated in a myriad of different ways. :mellow:
:huh:
Yule
Winter Solstice
Hanukkah
Kwanzaa
Sadeh
Diwali
(I went to a UU service, and these were the ones that they celebrated alongside Christmas, as at least one person in the congregation celebrated one of these.)
Diwali was over in mid November. The fact that you have to mention the Zoroastrian holiday of Sadeh shows how far you are reaching on this one. :lol:
I have no doubt if you hunt hard enough you can find someone who celebrates Yule, but not Christmas, or a pagan Winter Solstice, or even the made-up holiday of Kwanzaa. But this are fringe beyond fringe. There really is just Christmas, with Hanukkah coming an incredibly distant second.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
I wonder why you guys don't celebrate Boxing Day. It's not religious, or tied to anything particular to Britain.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:54:47 PM
I don't go every year. I was invited by a friend to go this year, so I am. :mellow:
Ok so this year you are celebrating Christmas. As this weird cultural experiment or something. I cannot wait to hear the outsider's perspective.
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 02:01:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
Except there aren't. There's just Christmas, which is celebrated in a myriad of different ways. :mellow:
:huh:
Yule
Winter Solstice
Hanukkah
Kwanzaa
Sadeh
Diwali
(I went to a UU service, and these were the ones that they celebrated alongside Christmas, as at least one person in the congregation celebrated one of these.)
Diwali was over in mid November. The fact that you have to mention the Zoroastrian holiday of Sadeh shows how far you are reaching on this one. :lol:
I have no doubt if you hunt hard enough you can find someone who celebrates Yule, but not Christmas, or a pagan Winter Solstice, or even the made-up holiday of Kwanzaa. But this are fringe beyond fringe. There really is just Christmas, with Hanukkah coming an incredibly distant second.
As I said, these were celebrated at a service at a UU church that I attended because there were those in the congregation that celebrated it. (My son is a member.) That they don't where you are doesn't mean that they don't anywhere. :mellow:
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
I wonder why you guys don't celebrate Boxing Day. It's not religious, or tied to anything particular to Britain.
Right, I think Boxing Day is a good holiday actually, wish we did celebrate it. It'd fit in well with our joy of chaining holidays together and commercialism. I also would like it if Shrove / Fat Tuesday was celebrated here like it was in Britain and elsewhere, it's a nice precursor to Lent. But for whatever reason those just aren't cultural traditions in the US.
I'm sorry but all of those holidays are truly fringe in America.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
Right, I think Boxing Day is a good holiday actually, wish we did celebrate it.
It's a day for the butlers and maids to have off. What the hell would we do with that?
Probably the same thing we do on our national day of "thanks", eat til our stomach's burst and watch sports.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 02:07:58 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
Right, I think Boxing Day is a good holiday actually, wish we did celebrate it.
It's a day for the butlers and maids to have off. What the hell would we do with that?
It means you don't have to get ready for work on the evening of the 25th. :)
Plus all the good sales. Who doesn't enjoy a good sale?
For me it's usually a day to stay in your pajamas all day, eat leftovers, and play with all your Christmas goodies.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 02:03:10 PM
Ok so this year you are celebrating Christmas. As this weird cultural experiment or something. I cannot wait to hear the outsider's perspective.
What the hell are you talking about? A friend invited me to go to a midnight mass with him because I mentioned that I missed it. As a recovering Catholic, I spent many years going to mignight mass, back when I believed in the whole Christ's nativity thing. I don't believe in it anymore - ergo, I don't celebrate Christmas - but I do still like some of the traditions surrounding that particular holiday. Much like I also enjoy some of the traditions of Neo-Pagans and those who celebrate the secular bits of the season.
You guys are completely missing my point, and I almost wonder if it's not deliberate. You're not addressing me or my opinion. Rather you're addressing some other complaint entirely.
I have no problem with the traditions surrounding the holidays this time of year. I have no issue with people wishing me a Merry Christmas or any other greeting that fits the timeframe. I have no issue with how other people celebrate the season. I do not, however, assume that everyone celebrates Christmas, so I don't say Merry Christmas unless I know it for a fact. I also do not consider what I celebrate as "Christmas", as I don't believe in the whole nativity thing. I don't force this on others. If they say Merry Christmas, I say thank you. (As I've said.) If given a gift, I do the same.
What I DO have a problem with is the overriding need to push that version of the winter holidays on EVERYONE rather than accepting that there are cultural and religious differences. I do not celebrate Christmas, though I celebrate a winter holiday. Telling me that because I celebrate a winter holiday that I then must be celebrating Christmas is silly to me.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
Except there aren't. There's just Christmas, which is celebrated in a myriad of different ways. :mellow:
:huh:
Yule
Winter Solstice
Hanukkah
Kwanzaa
Sadeh
Diwali
(I went to a UU service, and these were the ones that they celebrated alongside Christmas, as at least one person in the congregation celebrated one of these.)
Diwali is in early November. Ignorant racists are ignorant.
Nobody celebrates Sadeh.
Kwanzaa is just Christmas for racist black people.
Winter Solstice and Yule are both Christmas.
I would like to wish you all a merry christmas. :)
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
Except there aren't. There's just Christmas, which is celebrated in a myriad of different ways. :mellow:
:huh:
Yule
Winter Solstice
Hanukkah
Kwanzaa
Sadeh
Diwali
(I went to a UU service, and these were the ones that they celebrated alongside Christmas, as at least one person in the congregation celebrated one of these.)
Ok so you want to the this service where Christmas was being celebrated along with all these other things. And you are not celebrating Christmas? You have the 25th as a special day for you and Max.
What exactly are you celebrating by attending all these Christmas things and making the 25th special? If went to two separate Synagogues before attending a Passover Seder it would be weird to insist I just didn't celebrate Passover.
I say it is a yearly excuse to be around family in southern California. A temporary reprieve from weather in the north east. -_-
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 02:07:06 PM
I'm sorry but all of those holidays are truly fringe in America.
I don't know. Diwali is at least one where you know that most of your offshore staff won't be working and you'll have to make other arrangements. -_-
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 02:16:42 PM
What exactly are you celebrating by attending all these Christmas things and making the 25th special? If went to two separate Synagogues before attending a Passover Seder it would be weird to insist I just didn't celebrate Passover.
She said a friend invited her, right? When I was a kid friends used to invite me to their bar mitzvah celebrations, but that didn't make me Jewish. :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 02:25:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 02:16:42 PM
What exactly are you celebrating by attending all these Christmas things and making the 25th special? If went to two separate Synagogues before attending a Passover Seder it would be weird to insist I just didn't celebrate Passover.
She said a friend invited her, right? When I was a kid friends used to invite me to their bar mitzvah celebrations, but that didn't make me Jewish. :hmm:
No. But it did mean you celebrated their Bar Mitzvah.
No, it meant he celebrated a separate coming of age ritual in parallel and with most of the same customs as the Bar Mitzvah. But not the Bar Mitzvah!
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
I wonder why you guys don't celebrate Boxing Day. It's not religious, or tied to anything particular to Britain.
It'd be nice. We'd have to rob a holiday from somewhere else on the calendar to make up for it but I'd be down with getting another day after Christmas. I usually take that day off anyway and we celebrate my brother's birthday that day so it's almost like a holiday to me, if unofficially.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Again with the cultural blinders. Just because they are not in the numbers of your religiously concentrated belief system doesnt make it any less valid for them.
To paraphrase Valmy - only an ass would deny the ability of others to celebrate the season as they wish.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 02:16:42 PM
Ok so you want to the this service where Christmas was being celebrated along with all these other things. And you are not celebrating Christmas? You have the 25th as a special day for you and Max.
What exactly are you celebrating by attending all these Christmas things and making the 25th special? If went to two separate Synagogues before attending a Passover Seder it would be weird to insist I just didn't celebrate Passover.
My son was in a UU church service, so I went to see it. While there, a friend invited me to the 24th service to hear him sing a solo with the choir. Since it's a block from my office, I said sure. The 25th isn't a "special day" for Max and me. It's a day off from work where I can actually get away with doing nothing since everything is closed and no one will be dropping by.
Why is it so bloody important for you to "trap" me into saying that celebrate Christmas? The holiday, in and of itself, has zero special meaning to me. Why do you keep insisting to find meaning where there is none? I celebrate the season, not the holiday.
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 02:25:49 PM
She said a friend invited her, right? When I was a kid friends used to invite me to their bar mitzvah celebrations, but that didn't make me Jewish. :hmm:
Huh? Of course not. But you celebrated his Bar Mitzvah right? She is saying she is does not celebrate Christmas.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 02:31:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 02:16:42 PM
Ok so you want to the this service where Christmas was being celebrated along with all these other things. And you are not celebrating Christmas? You have the 25th as a special day for you and Max.
What exactly are you celebrating by attending all these Christmas things and making the 25th special? If went to two separate Synagogues before attending a Passover Seder it would be weird to insist I just didn't celebrate Passover.
My son was in a UU church service, so I went to see it. While there, a friend invited me to the 24th service to hear him sing a solo with the choir. Since it's a block from my office, I said sure. The 25th isn't a "special day" for Max and me. It's a day off from work where I can actually get away with doing nothing since everything is closed and no one will be dropping by.
Why is it so bloody important for you to "trap" me into saying that celebrate Christmas? The holiday, in and of itself, has zero special meaning to me. Why do you keep insisting to find meaning where there is none? I celebrate the season, not the holiday.
Why is it so bloody important for you that you say you don't celebrate Christmas? Seems odd to do celebrating on that day but say you aren't celebrating Christmas because you aren't a Christian. I'd think there are a lot of Americans who celebrate on Christmas that aren't really Christians.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 02:25:49 PM
She said a friend invited her, right? When I was a kid friends used to invite me to their bar mitzvah celebrations, but that didn't make me Jewish. :hmm:
Huh? Of course not. But you celebrated his Bar Mitzvah right? She is saying she is does not celebrate Christmas.
Maybe that's the difference to me. I do not celebrate Christmas as I understand it. As a Christian, celebrating Christmas meant something specific to me. It meant honoring Christ's birth and all that that entailed. As I am no longer Christian, I do not do that, ergo, I do not celebrate Christmas. I do follow some seasonal traditions, but they have nothing to do with Christ's birth. Christmas has a very specific and distinct meaning to me, which apparently it doesn't to the majority of you. Because it does, however, I do not feel comfortable saying that I celebrate that particular holy day.
If you feel a need to berate that, feel free, but at least I've put more thought into it than, "But it's the season!!!!!!!11111" :w00t: :w00t:
:glare:
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Because it does, however, I do not feel comfortable saying that I celebrate that particular holy day.
If you feel a need to berate that, feel free, but at least I've put more thought into it than, "But it's the season!!!!!!!11111" :w00t: :w00t:
:glare:
Just seems overly pedantic given that a great many people who celebrate Christmas aren't Christians.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Again with the cultural blinders. Just because they are not in the numbers of your religiously concentrated belief system doesnt make it any less valid for them.
To paraphrase Valmy - only an ass would deny the ability of others to celebrate the season as they wish.
I didn't see Otto denying anyone the ability to celebrate Kwanzaa.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 02:41:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Again with the cultural blinders. Just because they are not in the numbers of your religiously concentrated belief system doesnt make it any less valid for them.
To paraphrase Valmy - only an ass would deny the ability of others to celebrate the season as they wish.
I didn't see Otto denying anyone the ability to celebrate Kwanzaa.
Well only when in the context of his previous post. By itself it kinda reads that way.
I wonder if Viking will have to work on the 25th.
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 02:43:19 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 02:41:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Again with the cultural blinders. Just because they are not in the numbers of your religiously concentrated belief system doesnt make it any less valid for them.
To paraphrase Valmy - only an ass would deny the ability of others to celebrate the season as they wish.
I didn't see Otto denying anyone the ability to celebrate Kwanzaa.
Well only when in the context of his previous post. By itself it kinda reads that way.
We could ask if that's what he means.
I don't really care.
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Just seems overly pedantic given that a great many people who celebrate Christmas aren't Christians.
The word means something to me spiritually, and so I am particular to hold to that meaning. I don't understand why this is an issue.
Mind you, in general, I don't say much of anything to anyone about any of this. This is not a conversation that I typically have with the general public. The conversation came up because my friend was appalled that I wasn't doing anything for Christmas. I mentioned that I don't, technically, celebrate Christmas, which is what led to this conversation, and then this thread.
If people ask me if I celebrate Christmas, I usually say something like, "Close enough," or "Not really, but I enjoy the season." Around where I live and work, celebrating Christmas means being Christian. I am not Christian, so around here, I choose to make that clear - but only when specifically asked. Otherwise, I usually just smile and say nothing. It saves me from the kind of belittling that Otto, BB, and derspeiss handed out.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 02:43:36 PM
I wonder if Viking will have to work on the 25th.
Yes, he'll be blood eagling a couple of Jehovah's witnesses.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 02:49:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Just seems overly pedantic given that a great many people who celebrate Christmas aren't Christians.
The word means something to me spiritually, and so I am particular to hold to that meaning. I don't understand why this is an issue.
Mind you, in general, I don't say much of anything to anyone about any of this. This is not a conversation that I typically have with the general public. The conversation came up because my friend was appalled that I wasn't doing anything for Christmas. I mentioned that I don't, technically, celebrate Christmas, which is what led to this conversation, and then this thread.
If people ask me if I celebrate Christmas, I usually say something like, "Close enough," or "Not really, but I enjoy the season." Around where I live and work, celebrating Christmas means being Christian. I am not Christian, so around here, I choose to make that clear - but only when specifically asked. Otherwise, I usually just smile and say nothing. It saves me from the kind of belittling that Otto, BB, and derspeiss handed out.
Fair enough. I guess I typically don't get asked if I'm a Christian so there's little need for me to differentiate.
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Because it does, however, I do not feel comfortable saying that I celebrate that particular holy day.
If you feel a need to berate that, feel free, but at least I've put more thought into it than, "But it's the season!!!!!!!11111" :w00t: :w00t:
:glare:
Just seems overly pedantic given that a great many people who celebrate Christmas aren't Christians.
Don't use the p-word. It sets her off :secret:
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 02:41:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:54:28 PM
They also don't bring up punch lines like Kwanzaa or Yule or some other tradition that has about as much cultural relevance in the US as Boxing Day or Guy Fawkes Day.
Again with the cultural blinders. Just because they are not in the numbers of your religiously concentrated belief system doesnt make it any less valid for them.
To paraphrase Valmy - only an ass would deny the ability of others to celebrate the season as they wish.
I didn't see Otto denying anyone the ability to celebrate Kwanzaa.
He just doesnt like them talking about it...
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 02:54:47 PM
Don't use the p-word. It sets her off :secret:
It has judgmental overtones that I dislike. :mad:
:P
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie. Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well. Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).
As her to celebrate Purim, too.
You do that by getting drunk and (if you are a woman) dressing up like a hott Persian concubine. :D
Kwaanza is totally irrelevant to discussions of social interaction and the public space because, as Neil pointed out, it's a segregationist holiday. Nobody will ever wish me a happy Kwaanza and nobody will ever invite me to play Kwaanza reindeer games. If it weren't for obligatory public school announcements and public television Kwaanza greetings, it would be relatively easy to forget the holiday even exists.
I can foresee a day when black folks have given up on their goofy seperatist holiday and it's still chugging along on school bulletin boards and PBS station breaks.
Quote from: Caliga on December 20, 2012, 01:28:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 01:08:12 PM
Yeah if you are going to celebrate Jew Holidays you need to celebrate Purim, that is the best one.
Dude, Passover seder :mmm:
Purim. Getting drunk. Women dressed as Persian concubines.
Much better than just pigging out. :D
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 02:49:05 PM
If people ask me if I celebrate Christmas, I usually say something like, "Close enough," or "Not really, but I enjoy the season." Around where I live and work, celebrating Christmas means being Christian. I am not Christian, so around here, I choose to make that clear - but only when specifically asked.
I'm very close to throwing the BS flag on that one. I grew up in the heart of the bible belt and have worked with some pretty religiously conservative people, and have always seen the secular traditions of Christmas dominate. I'm getting the feeling you're actively differentiating yourself more than others are.
QuoteOtherwise, I usually just smile and say nothing. It saves me from the kind of belittling that Otto, BB, and derspeiss handed out.
We're just trying to get you to be honest about yourself, dear. Do you still consider yourself hispanic, BTW?
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie. Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well. Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).
As her to celebrate Purim, too.
You do that by getting drunk and (if you are a woman) dressing up like a hott Persian concubine. :D
I wanted to, but frankly I avoided most conversations with her. She was very weird and family gatherings were always awkward when she was around. She wasn't a good fit for our family at all. Pity she still carries our name.
I was wondering about that comment too Meri. I've known plenty of Jesus freaks and the Jesus freakiest they get at Christmas is going to an extra service.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
Kwaanza is totally irrelevant to discussions of social interaction and the public space because, as Neil pointed out, it's a segregationist holiday. Nobody will ever wish me a happy Kwaanza and nobody will ever invite me to play Kwaanza reindeer games. If it weren't for obligatory public school announcements and public television Kwaanza greetings, it would be relatively easy to forget the holiday even exists.
I can foresee a day when black folks have given up on their goofy seperatist holiday and it's still chugging along on school bulletin boards and PBS station breaks.
I don't think it was ever very popular. Most African Americans are Christian, and as you and Neil point out it is a racist holiday.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
Kwaanza is totally irrelevant to discussions of social interaction and the public space because, as Neil pointed out, it's a segregationist holiday. Nobody will ever wish me a happy Kwaanza and nobody will ever invite me to play Kwaanza reindeer games. If it weren't for obligatory public school announcements and public television Kwaanza greetings, it would be relatively easy to forget the holiday even exists.
I can foresee a day when black folks have given up on their goofy seperatist holiday and it's still chugging along on school bulletin boards and PBS station breaks.
I don't think it was ever very popular. Most African Americans are Christian, and as you and Neil point out it is a racist holiday.
The wikipedia page for Kwanzaa features a picture with several white people in it. So while it had its origins there...
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 03:37:13 PM
The wikipedia page for Kwanzaa features a picture with several white people in it. So while it had its origins there...
They're self-hatin'. Reverse-Uncle Toms.
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie. Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well. Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).
As her to celebrate Purim, too.
You do that by getting drunk and (if you are a woman) dressing up like a hott Persian concubine. :D
Yeah. If only every Jewish Holiday was like that. Having to ritually despose of leaven seems like a PITA.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 03:37:13 PM
The wikipedia page for Kwanzaa features a picture with several white people in it. So while it had its origins there...
They're self-hatin'. Reverse-Uncle Toms.
I have to say after becoming familiar with Uncle Tom's Cabin I have no idea why this character gets slandered this way.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 03:25:16 PM
I'm very close to throwing the BS flag on that one. I grew up in the heart of the bible belt and have worked with some pretty religiously conservative people, and have always seen the secular traditions of Christmas dominate. I'm getting the feeling you're actively differentiating yourself more than others are.
Again, saying that I celebrate Christmas means something
to me. If I say that yes, I celebrate Christmas, then it means something to me beyond having a tree and giving gifts. I don't say it because I don't mean it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 03:29:48 PM
I was wondering about that comment too Meri. I've known plenty of Jesus freaks and the Jesus freakiest they get at Christmas is going to an extra service.
Around here, I deal with a lot of people who are activists on the whole "putting Christ back in Christmas!!!". They bitch about the company's holiday card saying "Seasons Greetings". The "holiday" party annoys them no end. To them, Christmas is about Christ, or at least they certainly make it seem so. I had to sit and listen to a diatribe from several co-workers at lunch last year bitch about how stores and schools are ruining the religiosity of the season.
To me, Christmas is about Christ. To my co-workers, it certainly seems that Christmas is about Christ. Why is my desire to adhere to that a concern?
QuoteWe're just trying to get you to be honest about yourself, dear. Do you still consider yourself hispanic, BTW?
Nice, derspeiss. Way to be a dick. I'd begun to think better of you, but you've brought me up straight on that one.
As to the question, yes, I do, culturally, consider myself to be hispanic. How you feel about that means absolutely nothing to me, so fuck right off.
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 03:37:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
Kwaanza is totally irrelevant to discussions of social interaction and the public space because, as Neil pointed out, it's a segregationist holiday. Nobody will ever wish me a happy Kwaanza and nobody will ever invite me to play Kwaanza reindeer games. If it weren't for obligatory public school announcements and public television Kwaanza greetings, it would be relatively easy to forget the holiday even exists.
I can foresee a day when black folks have given up on their goofy seperatist holiday and it's still chugging along on school bulletin boards and PBS station breaks.
I don't think it was ever very popular. Most African Americans are Christian, and as you and Neil point out it is a racist holiday.
The wikipedia page for Kwanzaa features a picture with several white people in it. So while it had its origins there...
It's also totally made up.
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
It's also totally made up.
Every holiday and holiday tradition is totally made up.
I celebrate Glitter Day.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 03:55:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
It's also totally made up.
Every holiday and holiday tradition is totally made up.
Yeah I know and I used this argument before. Still, it's one of these "fake it until you make it" things and Kwanza is still at the faking stage. Like scientology or sensitive men who do not want to have sex on the first date.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 03:37:13 PM
The wikipedia page for Kwanzaa features a picture with several white people in it. So while it had its origins there...
They're self-hatin'. Reverse-Uncle Toms.
I have to say after becoming familiar with Uncle Tom's Cabin I have no idea why this character gets slandered this way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom#Epithet
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 03:55:25 PM
I celebrate Glitter Day.
Good for you. :)
It's an actual holiday created three years ago. It falls on the second Saturday of January and is the gay response to every other group having its own winter holiday. :P
It's as real as Kwanzaa.
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
It's an actual holiday created three years ago. It falls on the second Saturday of January and is the gay response to every other group having its own winter holiday. :P
It's as real as Kwanzaa.
Yes, it is. Which is as real as Christmas and Hanukkah. :)
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:08:30 PM
Yes, it is. Which is as real as Christmas and Hanukkah. :)
Which is as real as the United States of America. Yet if we are talking about real human society something's "reality" is entirely based on how many other people agree that it exists. I could declare my own nation of 'Dantonia' but until a certain critical mass of people agree it is a country it will not have the reality of The United States.
So in concrete physical terms you are absolutely right. But in terms that actually practically relate to how we live in human society you are wrong.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 03:50:53 PM
Around here, I deal with a lot of people who are activists on the whole "putting Christ back in Christmas!!!". They bitch about the company's holiday card saying "Seasons Greetings". The "holiday" party annoys them no end. To them, Christmas is about Christ, or at least they certainly make it seem so. I had to sit and listen to a diatribe from several co-workers at lunch last year bitch about how stores and schools are ruining the religiosity of the season.
To me, Christmas is about Christ. To my co-workers, it certainly seems that Christmas is about Christ. Why is my desire to adhere to that a concern?
Then maybe you should only wish those few coworkers a Happy Yule. The overwhelming majority of the country has no problem buying presents for a fat man in a red suit to deliver the night before Christmas and wishing each other merry Christmas.
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
I could declare my own nation of 'Dantonia'
It would be cut off by Robespierristan.
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 03:55:25 PM
I celebrate Glitter Day.
Good for you. :)
It's an actual holiday created three years ago. It falls on the second Saturday of January and is the gay response to every other group having its own winter holiday. :P
It's as real as Kwanzaa.
It still begs the question of why you would celebrate it. I mean, you aren't gay.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
She's not the one blowing it up. That's been pretty much everyone else in this thread.
Quote from: Maximus on December 20, 2012, 04:21:46 PM
She's not the one blowing it up. That's been pretty much everyone else in this thread.
I'm not implying that she's standing in the middle of Times Square shouting I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN I DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS I CELEBRATE YULE YOU FUCKING FUNDIES LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE
What I am saying is that her response to some people complaining about the de-Christianization of Christmas is disproportionate.
*BTW, I just learned that if you hit tab in the middle of a post, your incomplete post gets posted.
Wow you people are really bored worrying about what other people think or believe.
Since I am bored at work :)
I don't give a flying fuck about Christmas and wish you all a Merry Christmas the same, if it offends anyone? I don't care. If you think I am such a nice christian wishing you a merry christmas, I don't care. You realise I don't believe in your God? Still don't care.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Which is as real as the United States of America. Yet if we are talking about real human society something's "reality" is entirely based on how many other people agree that it exists. I could declare my own nation of 'Dantonia' but until a certain critical mass of people agree it is a country it will not have the reality of The United States.
So in concrete physical terms you are absolutely right. But in terms that actually practically relate to how we live in human society you are wrong.
What's that "critical mass"? And what is it while it builds to that point? I mean, your own church is considered along the same lines. UU is, afterall, only a few decades old. Before it had more followers, what was it? Less "real"? Worthy of derision simply because it was new?
I don't get this appeal to some indeterminate "critical mass" or length of time as some form of validity. If someone wants to celebrate something a certain way, why is that a problem regardless of how many people agree or how long they've been doing it? Why does anyone care what others do?
Kwanzaa has a lovely story behind it. Yes, it began as a form of seperatism, but that's changed over time for most. It's a celebration of a culture rich in traditions, music, and foods. It's a celebration of overcoming tragedy. How many holidays that we celebrate are different? But because it's new, it's not valid?
Glitter Day, however tongue-in-cheek it may have started, may become next century's Valentine's Day. I don't understand the need to criticize and belittle how others choose to celebrate things in their life. What do I care? I mean, if I can relate, I may look into it, but if not, then it's really none of my business.
I belittle people. :)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 04:25:06 PM
I'm not implying that she's standing in the middle of Times Square shouting I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN I DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS I CELEBRATE YULE YOU FUCKING FUNDIES LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE
What I am saying is that her response to some people complaining about the de-Christianization of Christmas is disproportionate.
Which response was that? Saying that I agree that Christmas has meaning for many - myself included - and therefore, I prefer not to use that term for my own celebrations? That's disproportionate to... what? How should I handle this? Just go along, even though it goes against my own, personal understanding? Why? Because it's easier for... who? How does it affect anyone other than me?
Quote*BTW, I just learned that if you hit tab in the middle of a post, your incomplete post gets posted.
Good to know. :)
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 20, 2012, 04:25:58 PM
Wow you people are really bored worrying about what other people think or believe.
Since I am bored at work :)
I don't give a flying fuck about Christmas and wish you all a Merry Christmas the same, if it offends anyone? I don't care. If you think I am such a nice christian wishing you a merry christmas, I don't care. You realise I don't believe in your God? Still don't care.
Sounds good to me. :hug:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 04:25:06 PM
I'm not implying that she's standing in the middle of Times Square shouting I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN I DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS I CELEBRATE YULE YOU FUCKING FUNDIES LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE
What I am saying is that her response to some people complaining about the de-Christianization of Christmas is disproportionate.
*BTW, I just learned that if you hit tab in the middle of a post, your incomplete post gets posted.
Sorry, I don't think that asking a question, even on languish, is a disproportionate response to anything.
The wisdom of doing so may be a different matter.
Merri has a point. The unitarians are as wacky as Kwanzaa.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
Which response was that? Saying that I agree that Christmas has meaning for many - myself included - and therefore, I prefer not to use that term for my own celebrations? That's disproportionate to... what? How should I handle this? Just go along, even though it goes against my own, personal understanding? Why? Because it's easier for... who? How does it affect anyone other than me?
A little disingenuous Meri. The what that your response is disproportionate to is the this that you're asking how to handle.
The issue as I see it is how to respond when somebody rants about taking God out of Christmas.
By the way, I wish people Merry Christmas and thank them if they wish it to me. But then Polish culture is very homogenic so it may be different elsewhere.
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 04:39:43 PM
homogenic
I don't usually crack on non native speakers but this one is cute. :D
It's homogenous.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
Which response was that? Saying that I agree that Christmas has meaning for many - myself included - and therefore, I prefer not to use that term for my own celebrations? That's disproportionate to... what? How should I handle this? Just go along, even though it goes against my own, personal understanding? Why? Because it's easier for... who? How does it affect anyone other than me?
I think we caught what we saw as a logical inconsistency with you claiming not to celebrate Christmas while (from our perspective) celebrating Christmas. You asked for our thoughts on the matter, and we gave them to you with both barrels :P
And sorry about the "Hispanic" crack. I was just trying to yank your chain a little & didn't mean to offend.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 04:42:57 PM
I don't usually crack on non native speakers
Then how shall we learn? :(
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
What's that "critical mass"? And what is it while it builds to that point? I mean, your own church is considered along the same lines. UU is, afterall, only a few decades old. Before it had more followers, what was it? Less "real"? Worthy of derision simply because it was new?
Well let's just say if I try to take off 'Girondin Day' I am going to be burning vacation hours until a certain number of people agree that it is a real Holiday. Eventually there will be special 'Girondin Day' sales and cards as more people get on board.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
What's that "critical mass"? And what is it while it builds to that point? I mean, your own church is considered along the same lines. UU is, afterall, only a few decades old. Before it had more followers, what was it? Less "real"? Worthy of derision simply because it was new?
Well let's just say if I try to take off 'Girondin Day' I am going to be burning vacation hours until a certain number of people agree that it is a real Holiday. Eventually there will be special 'Girondin Day' sales and cards as more people get on board.
Does Girondin Day have a special candle you light for Collective Work or Cooperative Economics like Kwanzaa? :bleeding: What silly concepts to integrate into a holiday.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 04:38:58 PM
A little disingenuous Meri. The what that your response is disproportionate to is the this that you're asking how to handle.
The issue as I see it is how to respond when somebody rants about taking God out of Christmas.
I don't typically respond unless something is directly said to me. Then, I reply that the holidays mean something different to everyone, and if Christ is out of Christmas for them, then that's a personal issue that they need to take up for themselves. Otherwise, they probably should allow people to celebrate the season in a way that's meaningful to themselves, which may have very little to do with Christ.
But it's because that is my response that I cringe at using the term Christmas for my own celebrations. I don't see that as disproportionate. Rather, I still see that as the more respectful way to handle it.
I should make up Davout day and celebrate killing Prussians.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 04:46:56 PM
Well let's just say if I try to take off 'Girondin Day' I am going to be burning vacation hours until a certain number of people agree that it is a real Holiday. Eventually there will be special 'Girondin Day' sales and cards as more people get on board.
I've worked at a number of places that allowed a set number of "floating holidays" (usually two or three). There were five set holidays (and yes, Christmas was one of those :P ) but the other days were to be used as you so chose. I think that is the better way to handle these kinds of situations. I've never understood getting Good Friday off work when Easter is just another Sunday to me. I'd rather have that day off for when it means something to me personally, like my anniversary or something like that.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 05:00:49 PM
I've worked at a number of places that allowed a set number of "floating holidays" (usually two or three). There were five set holidays (and yes, Christmas was one of those :P ) but the other days were to be used as you so chose. I think that is the better way to handle these kinds of situations. I've never understood getting Good Friday off work when Easter is just another Sunday to me. I'd rather have that day off for when it means something to me personally, like my anniversary or something like that.
Those five set Holidays are regarded as "real" Holidays. I am not presenting this as a problem, like ooooh there are made up things human society can make seem very real if enough people go along with it and WE MUST FIGHT TEH POWAH, but it is just so. I think it is pretty awesome myself I love participating in human culture and society.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
Does Girondin Day have a special candle you light for Collective Work or Cooperative Economics? :bleeding:
These are the Girondins, we would be lighting candles to Federalism, Free Trade, and Republicanism.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 05:08:09 PM
Those five set Holidays are regarded as "real" Holidays. I am not presenting this as a problem, like ooooh there are made up things human society can make seem very real if enough people go along with it and WE MUST FIGHT TEH POWAH, but it is just so. I think it is pretty awesome myself I love participating in human culture and society.
I find it interesting that you see it as not "FIGHTING TEH POWAH" and participating in human culture and society. To me, holidays are, well, primarily Holy Days. They serve a spiritual purpose for me. So just going along because everyone else does doesn't work for me. If it's a holiday, then I want to celebrate it for what it means to me, personally. I participate in human culture and society every day. I'm an active member in my community in many ways. I "go along" quite a bit. After all, I have children, and that entails a certain amount of going with the flow.
When it comes to my spirituality, however, I'm not as willing to bend. I have spent far too much time struggling with and trying to understand what works for me to just "go along". I could play the part, I suppose. Tell others that I celebrate Christmas as Christmas. But the truth of it bothers me immensely. It is, to me, something different, and in order to be true to myself, I have to accept and deal with that. Sometimes, that means going against the norm, and I'm pretty okay with that.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
Does Girondin Day have a special candle you light for Collective Work or Cooperative Economics? :bleeding:
These are the Girondins, we would be lighting candles to Federalism, Free Trade, and Republicanism.
I clarified my post-- I was actually mocking Kwanzaa.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 04:43:55 PM
I think we caught what we saw as a logical inconsistency with you claiming not to celebrate Christmas while (from our perspective) celebrating Christmas. You asked for our thoughts on the matter, and we gave them to you with both barrels :P
I was never in doubt where this thread would go, though I am surprised by a few of the responses. These kinds of threads do a good job of helping me solidify for myself what I'm thinking by having to define them to you guys. It's a huge part of why I start them. :)
QuoteAnd sorry about the "Hispanic" crack. I was just trying to yank your chain a little & didn't mean to offend.
You did offend. Thank you for the apology. :)
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 05:16:17 PM
[I find it interesting that you see it as not "FIGHTING TEH POWAH" and participating in human culture and society. To me, holidays are, well, primarily Holy Days. They serve a spiritual purpose for me. So just going along because everyone else does doesn't work for me. If it's a holiday, then I want to celebrate it for what it means to me, personally. I participate in human culture and society every day. I'm an active member in my community in many ways. I "go along" quite a bit. After all, I have children, and that entails a certain amount of going with the flow.
When it comes to my spirituality, however, I'm not as willing to bend. I have spent far too much time struggling with and trying to understand what works for me to just "go along". I could play the part, I suppose. Tell others that I celebrate Christmas as Christmas. But the truth of it bothers me immensely. It is, to me, something different, and in order to be true to myself, I have to accept and deal with that. Sometimes, that means going against the norm, and I'm pretty okay with that.
Hmmmm I thought we had moved on to another topic here.
I do not see the distinction you are trying to make. That the act of celebrating Christmas is not the same as believing something essential internally about Christmas. I am not sure that is specifically agreed upon even in general society. The fundy Christians have for centuries tried to turn Christmas into something more Jesus-centric. They still remind us 'hey remember that Jesus guy?' South Park even had a joke about this where Jesus sacrifices himself to rescue Santa Clause so everybody decides they should dedicate Christmas to Jesus.
Anyway if I felt participating in these holidays required a specific thought pattern or beliefs I would probably feel the same way you do. I just do not.
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 05:17:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
Does Girondin Day have a special candle you light for Collective Work or Cooperative Economics? :bleeding:
These are the Girondins, we would be lighting candles to Federalism, Free Trade, and Republicanism.
I clarified my post-- I was actually mocking Kwanzaa.
Ah ok :P I thought you were confusing them with the Jacobins. But now that you explained it I get the joke :blush:
DId you see the Futurama Kwanzaa espisode where they celebrate the ancient 1,000 year history of Kwanzaa? :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 05:24:08 PM
The fundy Christians have for centuries tried to turn Christmas into something more Jesus-centric.
For how many centuries, exactly? Like, 16? :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 20, 2012, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 05:24:08 PM
The fundy Christians have for centuries tried to turn Christmas into something more Jesus-centric.
For how many centuries, exactly? Like, 16? :P
Christmas isn't about Christ, Seedy. Get with the program. :contract:
Sorry, too busy picking out my new Kufi for Kwanzaa this year.
I don't like what I perceive to be semi-strawmanning going on here. I do not believe a single person in this thread has tried to tell anyone how to celebrate or not celebrate anything. Nor have I at least said you have to call anything a specific thing. All I have said is it's simply immature to be annoyed by the overwhelming majority in a society celebrating a cultural tradition. I can and have celebrated cultural traditions around the world that are rooted in beliefs I do not hold.
I wouldn't think to assert that I'm not celebrating Zhongqiu when I'm in the home of a Chinese family celebrating just that. Yes, there are Western non-religious autumnal traditions I could say I'm celebrating but that just isn't true in that scenario when I'm engaged in cultural practices and eating foods associated with the Chinese. I do not worship the moon or believe in any of the spiritualism associated with this festival, but it'd be disingenuous in that situation to claim I'm celebrating something else. FWIW the Chinese themselves don't by and large still believe in most of the spiritual aspects of the festival but they don't pretend it is some new holiday. Nomenclature is meaningless, but there is a Christmas tradition very distinct from the Catholic Holy Day celebrating the Nativity, and if you're engaged in those traditions you are celebrating that secular Christmas regardless of what you call it.
Hell, I had to do that Chinese New Year shit with Dragon Lady and her family. Little red cards everywhere.
YEAR OF THE MONKEY SPANKING
Hey, when I was in Tibet I stuck my head in a hollow sculpture of a horse-headed Buddha-protector deamon and had it covered with Yak butter (true story!). When in Rome, I say ... :D
To re-address the core of the subject of the thread if not actually what the question was in the first post, Christmas has two meanings.
It's a day of obligation to me, and an important (second most important) holy day on the liturgical calendar. But almost everything else is unrelated to that, and is instead related to a modern, secular celebration that has very little to do with the Holy Day, at least to me as a Christian. I don't particularly know or care why non-Christians think the secular Christmas is intrinsically Christian, because it isn't. But I see no real problem with calling it Christmas since that's basically what everyone does.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
What's that "critical mass"? And what is it while it builds to that point? I mean, your own church is considered along the same lines. UU is, afterall, only a few decades old. Before it had more followers, what was it? Less "real"? Worthy of derision simply because it was new?
The critical mass is everyone, or close to it.
At any rate, are you seriously going to try and hold up Unitarian Universalism up as something that
isn't worthy of derision?
Quote from: Neil on December 20, 2012, 06:28:58 PM
At any rate, are you seriously going to try and hold up Unitarian Universalism up as something that isn't worthy of derision?
:D
The difference between Unitarian Universalism and Protestantism is one of degree, not kind.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
The difference between Unitarian Universalism and Protestantism is one of degree, not kind.
Let's not ruin a good day, now.
'K we get it Meri, you're a special snowflake. ;)
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 07:07:10 PM
Let's not ruin a good day, now.
Biscuit is a follower of the Great Whore of Rome, remember?
I like to act a pre-Vatican II Catholic from time to time for entertainment value, but I don't have any real issue with Protestants. I think they have an imperfect union with the successor of Peter but are still Christian.
Meh, some Protestants are worth more than others.
Definitely...the Pope basically said recently that Protestants do not have true church because they do not have a true priesthood nor do they have proper sacraments. Basically he views them as ecclesial communities of Christian lay people operating without proper guidance. In the same declaration he stated Orthodox had true priesthood/sacrament but suffered an imperfection in that they didn't properly acknowledge the authority of the successor to Peter.
I think that's a fair assessment. The only church I can even see having a real beef with that is the Anglicans and Lutherans, who to my mind have what I'd consider a professional priesthood and true sacraments.
I think we can recognize Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans are far superior to Baptists, Pentecostals, Nazarene and etc ilk.
Not taking the bait.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 07:55:42 PM
I think we can recognize Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans are far superior to Baptists, Pentecostals, Nazarene and etc ilk.
:nods head in papist agreement:
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 07:59:21 PM
Not taking the bait.
Speaking of bait, feed your snake yet this week? NYUK NYUK NYUK
If Protestant ministers started wearing attractive dresses do you think the Pope would change his mind?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 08:02:17 PM
If Protestant ministers started wearing attractive dresses do you think the Pope would change his mind?
I would agree with the contention that some denominations' clergy are more professional and educated than others. I'd put Methodist and Lutheran up at the top.
I come from a family of Lutherans (Dad's family) and Methodists (Mom's family). :cool:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
The difference between Unitarian Universalism and Protestantism is one of degree, not kind.
I disagree. Protestantism strives to be a meaningful religion, wheras Unitarian Universalism strives to be hippie bullshit.
America makes it complicated Yi, but yes a "professionally ordained clergy" is part of what I use to rank one Protestant Church above another.
On some extremes, Assembly of God and many Baptist churches basically anyone can be hired as preacher as the individual churches are really basically independent. Further, these denominations have a high incidence of what I would call "degree mill seminaries", seminaries that I do not feel are academically or theologically rigorous and that any baboon could get through.
The Anglicans on the other hand have both professional training and centralized control of their clergy, which makes them quite professional in my mind.
The Presbyterians have professional training and a degree of centralization of ministerial control. But the central Presbyterian body in the United States doesn't actually have clergy-level control, instead individual "Presbyteries" are in charge of ordination and assigning/removing from congregations (a Presbytery is IIRC similar in size to a diocese.)
Lutherans are more complicated. The main group of Lutherans in the U.S. has a professional priesthood but individual clergy are selected on a congregation by congregation level through differing methods (some use open election by the parishioners, some have a committee etc.) But the central Lutheran body runs all the seminaries so there is a degree of centralized control of education at least. But where Lutheranism gets a little dicey here is there are splinter Lutheran groups from the main group here in America and some of them are quite simply what I would consider a type of fundamentalist Christian and thus I wouldn't look on them as favorably as the other Lutherans.
:( I was getting all geared up for a smack down.
Coincidentally I was talking to a bar buddy of mine last week, and we ended up on Lutheran wacky splinter groups. I had always thought that Lutherans were the whitest of white bread denominations, but he said his family (he's from South Dakota) used to host little mini-revival/culty kinds of deals. The way he described it it was clearly more than your plain vanilla bible study group.
Yeah, back in the 80s if you remember
Cheers Woody was marrying the daughter of a super-rich family. Woody reveals to Sam one day a problem has arisen in their potential marriage:
QuoteSam: "Hey, what happened?"
Woody: "Kelly and I found out we're from different religions."
Frasier: "I thought Kelly and you were both Lutheran."
Woody: "Oh, well, that's what I thought. It turns out she's the Lutheran Church of America, I'm Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod. But if we had children we'd have half-breeds."
Interestingly, the LCA is mainline and the Missouri Synod is one of those Fundie splinter groups. Which fits in exactly with Woody's characterization on the show.
Edit to add: Missouri Synod is more conservative at least, but they aren't one of the true crazy Lutheran groups. I think a lot of the crazier splinter groups actually split off of the Missouri Synod when the LCMS decided to become a bit more progressive and have friendlier associations with the more liberal Lutherans.
there should be more of a movement to take it back to its yule roots.
despite there being no religious aspect at all in my family its still a special day when youre meant to see yoiur family
Why? Most of the people who celebrate Yule are douchebags, whereas most of the good things in our society come from Christians.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 07:55:42 PM
Definitely...the Pope basically said recently that Protestants do not have true church because they do not have a true priesthood nor do they have proper sacraments. Basically he views them as ecclesial communities of Christian lay people operating without proper guidance. In the same declaration he stated Orthodox had true priesthood/sacrament but suffered an imperfection in that they didn't properly acknowledge the authority of the successor to Peter.
I think that's a fair assessment. The only church I can even see having a real beef with that is the Anglicans and Lutherans, who to my mind have what I'd consider a professional priesthood and true sacraments.
I think we can recognize Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans are far superior to Baptists, Pentecostals, Nazarene and etc ilk.
Pretty words, but you're still going to burn in hell for following the Nazi Antichrist of Rome. :console:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 06:25:06 PM
To re-address the core of the subject of the thread if not actually what the question was in the first post, Christmas has two meanings.
It's a day of obligation to me, and an important (second most important) holy day on the liturgical calendar. But almost everything else is unrelated to that, and is instead related to a modern, secular celebration that has very little to do with the Holy Day, at least to me as a Christian. I don't particularly know or care why non-Christians think the secular Christmas is intrinsically Christian, because it isn't. But I see no real problem with calling it Christmas since that's basically what everyone does.
Thank you for your opinion. :) It won't change mine, but I appreciate you spelling out your own.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 05:46:44 PM
I don't like what I perceive to be semi-strawmanning going on here. I do not believe a single person in this thread has tried to tell anyone how to celebrate or not celebrate anything. Nor have I at least said you have to call anything a specific thing. All I have said is it's simply immature to be annoyed by the overwhelming majority in a society celebrating a cultural tradition. I can and have celebrated cultural traditions around the world that are rooted in beliefs I do not hold.
Well, when it annoys me, I'll be sure not to tell you so that you don't think that I'm immature. It would be a travesty for that to happen.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 04:25:06 PM
I'm not implying that she's standing in the middle of Times Square shouting I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN I DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS I CELEBRATE YULE YOU FUCKING FUNDIES LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE
What I am saying is that her response to some people complaining about the de-Christianization of Christmas is disproportionate.
Which response was that? Saying that I agree that Christmas has meaning for many - myself included - and therefore, I prefer not to use that term for my own celebrations? That's disproportionate to... what? How should I handle this? Just go along, even though it goes against my own, personal understanding? Why? Because it's easier for... who? How does it affect anyone other than me?
Quote*BTW, I just learned that if you hit tab in the middle of a post, your incomplete post gets posted.
Good to know. :)
Has grumbler hijacked your account? 'Cause it seems to me that you're arguing semantics. Modern Christmas in America (OK, not just in America) is a commercialized, secularized holiday--that's a fact. That it has a spiritual meaning above and beyond that to many people doesn't change that fact. You want to call it something else, fine, but don't expect other people to change their terminolgy to match your preconceptions, or agree that your terminology makes better sense.
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 09:05:10 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 07:55:42 PM
Definitely...the Pope basically said recently that Protestants do not have true church because they do not have a true priesthood nor do they have proper sacraments. Basically he views them as ecclesial communities of Christian lay people operating without proper guidance. In the same declaration he stated Orthodox had true priesthood/sacrament but suffered an imperfection in that they didn't properly acknowledge the authority of the successor to Peter.
I think that's a fair assessment. The only church I can even see having a real beef with that is the Anglicans and Lutherans, who to my mind have what I'd consider a professional priesthood and true sacraments.
I think we can recognize Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans are far superior to Baptists, Pentecostals, Nazarene and etc ilk.
Pretty words, but you're still going to burn in hell for following the Nazi Antichrist of Rome. :console:
As opposed to a religous movement founded by an unrepentant German anti-Semite?
I have to say, Raz's posts have been incisive as of late.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 11:56:25 PM
As opposed to a religous movement founded by an unrepentant German anti-Semite?
Meh, who wasn't back then.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 09:15:22 AM
I have to say, Raz's posts have been incisive as of late.
:hmm: And you were doing so well, too...
As well as Raz anyway.
Quote from: Barrister on December 20, 2012, 09:05:10 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 07:55:42 PM
Definitely...the Pope basically said recently that Protestants do not have true church because they do not have a true priesthood nor do they have proper sacraments. Basically he views them as ecclesial communities of Christian lay people operating without proper guidance. In the same declaration he stated Orthodox had true priesthood/sacrament but suffered an imperfection in that they didn't properly acknowledge the authority of the successor to Peter.
I think that's a fair assessment. The only church I can even see having a real beef with that is the Anglicans and Lutherans, who to my mind have what I'd consider a professional priesthood and true sacraments.
I think we can recognize Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans are far superior to Baptists, Pentecostals, Nazarene and etc ilk.
Pretty words, but you're still going to burn in hell for following the Nazi Antichrist of Rome. :console:
Aren't you an Ortho? You know the Holy Father has extended various options to let your kind re-enter the flock with a lot of your extant customs in place.
Something to think about :).
Quote from: Neil on December 21, 2012, 11:27:34 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 09:15:22 AM
I have to say, Raz's posts have been incisive as of late.
:hmm: And you were doing so well, too...
Please, Raz's posts have been at least an entertaining as:
QuoteWhy? Most of the people who celebrate Yule are douchebags, whereas most of the good things in our society come from Christians.
And just as serious.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 11:38:08 AM
Aren't you an Ortho? You know the Holy Father has extended various options to let your kind re-enter the flock with a lot of your extant customs in place.
Something to think about :).
No, he's a Protestant. Scipio is the Orthodox.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 11:39:50 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 21, 2012, 11:27:34 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 09:15:22 AM
I have to say, Raz's posts have been incisive as of late.
:hmm: And you were doing so well, too...
Please, Raz's posts have been at least an entertaining as:
QuoteWhy? Most of the people who celebrate Yule are douchebags, whereas most of the good things in our society come from Christians.
And just as serious.
It's important that people know that hippie bullshit isn't to be tolerated.
Quote from: Neil on December 21, 2012, 11:41:23 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 11:38:08 AM
Aren't you an Ortho? You know the Holy Father has extended various options to let your kind re-enter the flock with a lot of your extant customs in place.
Something to think about :).
No, he's a Protestant. Scipio is the Orthodox.
Ah, that's a pity. I actually liked Beeb.
Actually I think Beeb is Uniate.
Beeb worships Don Cherry.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2012, 02:31:16 PM
Actually I think Beeb is Uniate.
It's some kind of Sola Scriptura thing.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 11:56:25 PM
As opposed to a religous movement founded by an unrepentant German anti-Semite?
Meh, who wasn't back then.
Jews. Many Popes and Bishops who protected Jews.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 21, 2012, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 11:56:25 PM
As opposed to a religous movement founded by an unrepentant German anti-Semite?
Meh, who wasn't back then.
Jews. Many Popes and Bishops who protected Jews.
Don't forget the French.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 21, 2012, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 20, 2012, 11:56:25 PM
As opposed to a religous movement founded by an unrepentant German anti-Semite?
Meh, who wasn't back then.
Jews. Many Popes and Bishops who protected Jews.
Yet who put swastikas in their cathedrals? Huh? HUH??!
Next year at Christmas, I'm going to say 'Destroy America!' in response to Merry Christmas.
Quote from: Scipio on December 21, 2012, 07:51:14 PM
Next year at Christmas, I'm going to say 'Destroy America!' in response to Merry Christmas.
You mean you don't go around wishing people Merry Christmas for two weeks afterward?
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 11:00:54 AM
No, no. If anything, it's more of a different justification for not saying/celebrating "Christmas". I find it disrespectful to Christianity to say that I am doing so when I'm really not, but that doesn't seem to be how Christians take it.
I think this always seems very American. Both the 'war on Christmas' hyperventilating and the 'happy holidays' angle. Over here I've never really seen it come up as an issue. Also I know a few Muslims, Jews, agnostics and atheists who were looking forward to their Christmas dinners like any 'Christian'. That's been universalised in the UK, so've Santa hats etc.
I don't see 'merry Christmas' as a remotely religious statement. 'Happy Easter' is. We don't have many religiously inspired national holidays but if, say, Pentecost was a holiday I think there'd be a similar issue.