The meaning of "Christmas"

[crazy canuck]

Today, I got into a discussion about the use of the term "Christmas". I mentioned to a couple of friends that I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do celebrate the holiday season. One of them took great offense at that, saying that if I celebrate the holiday season I obviously celebrate Christmas. My problem with that is that I do not celebrate the birth of Christ, which is the whole point of Christmas. So, I kind of feel like it's disinenguous to say that I celebrate Christmas. He said that the whole holiday is Christmas, not just the religious aspect, so I'm wrong in saying that I don't celebrate the holiday.

What says Languish on the subject?

I say this is an indication of how deeply religious your corner of the world is.  It is fairly normal for people around here to accept that not everyone (and perhaps even a minority) are Christian and celebrate the holiday season as such.

[Barrister]

I have no problems celebrating Christmas as a Jew. In fact, I celebrate two of 'em - regular Christmas, and the Ukranian one. 

That's the way to do it.

We have occasionally celebrated Ukrainian Christmas.  It is rather nice actually.  All the presents and Santa are done with, so it's much more family, religious and culturally oriented.

It's a shame the 12 meatless dishes aren't more tasty.

[merithyn]

What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays".  I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that.  I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday.

Meh.  It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?

Because to them, it's another season altogether.

I hate how in the last 100 years it's become necessary to celebrate Christmas this time of year whether you are actually celebrating Christmas or not. I don't like the crass, commercialization of the secular Christmas traditions in the US. I am not Christian, so the whole nativity bit is lost to me. At the end of the day, the only things that I like about this time of year have to do with the historical aspects (green and red decor, singing carols (Christmas as well as Winter Wonderland-type), lights, celebrating winter) rather than anything to do with "Christmas", per se. And it really annoys the hell out of me that because I happen to live in the US, I'm somehow supposed to bow to that pressure since, well, it's the Christmas season!

I'm respectful of others - I haven't said a word to anyone who's been kind enough to give me a Christmas card or small bits of candy at the office other than a very cheerful, "Thank you!" But please don't push that holiday off on me.

[Caliga]

@cc It's less about deep religious conviction and more about demographics, I think.  When virtually everyone is a Christian or has Christian heritage it tends to be more of a non-issue.

[merithyn]

I say this is an indication of how deeply religious your corner of the world is.  It is fairly normal for people around here to accept that not everyone (and perhaps even a minority) are Christian and celebrate the holiday season as such.

I suspect that you are correct on this.

[crazy canuck]

@cc It's less about deep religious conviction and more about demographics, I think.  When virtually everyone is a Christian or has Christian heritage it tends to be more of a non-issue.

If everyone is a Christian or sees themselves as such isnt that the definition of a deeply religious area of the world?

[Eddie Teach]

I have no problems celebrating Christmas as a Jew. In fact, I celebrate two of 'em - regular Christmas, and the Ukranian one. 

Lucky for Carl.

[Caliga]

If everyone is a Christian or sees themselves as such isnt that the definition of a deeply religious area of the world?

I don't think so, no.  You can self-identify as a Christian and not be particularly religious at all.  For example, I'm an atheist but if I had to pick a religious greeting that I would want wished to me during the holidays, the only one that seems appropriate would be "Merry Christmas", since I at least used to be nominally Christian and a number of my relatives are in fact still believers.

That said, in Kentucky a great majority ARE deeply religious Christians.  Not sure about where Meri lives in downstate Illinois.

[Valmy]

What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays".  I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that.  I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday.

Meh.  It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?

Well yeah nothing wrong with that.  What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.

[crazy canuck]

If everyone is a Christian or sees themselves as such isnt that the definition of a deeply religious area of the world?

I don't think so, no.  You can self-identify as a Christian and not be particularly religious at all.  For example, I'm an atheist but if I had to pick a religious greeting that I would want wished to me during the holidays, the only one that seems appropriate would be "Merry Christmas", since I at least used to be nominally Christian and a number of my relatives are in fact still believers.

That said, in Kentucky a great majority ARE deeply religious Christians.  Not sure about where Meri lives in downstate Illinois.

But that is the point Cal, even you as a non Christian living in an area which is dominated by Christians buy cards of a religious nature because that is the cultural norm in your area.  Compare that to the kinds of cards that fly around these parts - almost all say Seasons Greetings etc.

That goes to Meri's point of people becoming offended if she chooses to go outside the cultural norm in her area which is defined by its Christianity.

[crazy canuck]

What's popular around here is insisting on wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" even if they first wished you "Happy Holidays".  I used to work with some cretins who made a big point about doing that.  I'll wish a Christian "Merry Christmas", a Jew "Happy Hanukkah", etc. because I respect their right to their beliefs, but I don't understand the point of insisting on being an asshole and forcing everyone to acknowledge your personal holiday.

Meh.  It *is* the Christmas season, so why wouldn't I want even Jews and Muslims to have a merry one, even if they aren't celebrating it directly?

Well yeah nothing wrong with that.  What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.

Valmy wins the thread

[Caliga]

But that is the point Cal, even you as a non Christian living in an area which is dominated by Christians buy cards of a religious nature because that is the cultural norm in your area.  Compare that to the kinds of cards that fly around these parts - almost all say Seasons Greetings etc.

That goes to Meri's point of people becoming offended if she chooses to go outside the cultural norm in her area which is defined by its Christianity.

The only point I'm trying to make (and probably not very clearly) is that I don't think it's correct to assume that just because a particular region has individuals of mostly Christian background means that region is also deeply religious.  Obviously both Vancouver and Kentucky are poor examples for this... but what about say Denmark?

[merithyn]

Well yeah nothing wrong with that.  What is nutty is getting upset when people say 'Happy Holidays' and insisting you say 'Merry Christmas'.

Exactly.

[derspiess]

My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie.  Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well.  Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).

[merithyn]

My brother's weirdo ex-wife celebrated Hanukkah and decorated for it, even though she was a Christian fundie.  Her rationale was that Christianity was formed out of Judaism, so we should honor the old Jewish traditions as well.  Funny thing is that she never bothered to celebrate the other unique Jewish holidays and Hanukkah is a very minor one in Judaism (inspite of the "me too"-ism on the part of American Jews).

Yeah, that does seem a bit odd. Basically, she liked some of the Hanukkah things, but rather than just saying that, she made up a story about it.