http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/school-shooting-connecticut/1769367/
QuoteA lone gunman at the center of a terrifying Friday morning elementary school shooting in Newtown, Conn., has been killed, authorities say.
The Hartford Courant reported that shortly after 9:40 a.m., the shooter was in the main office at Sandy Hook Elementary School and at least one victim had numerous gunshot wounds. Two handguns were recovered from the scene.
Mayor Mark Boughton said several victims had been taken to local hospitals. But details were sketchy. The Newtown Bee reported that a police officer carried a seriously wounded child from the building. (The Courant also said one shooter was reported dead).
Groups of students — some crying, some holding hands — were being escorted away from the school by their teachers. Some students were still in the school at 10:30 a.m., after it was placed on lock down, parents said.
The school is in a residential, wooded neighborhood about 90 minutes north of New York City. It has has 39 teachers and about 650 students. A reverse 911 call went out to parents warning of an incident. Parents were being reunited with children. But, NBC Connecticut reported, police are searching the area behind the school with guns drawn.
The Courant said Alexis Wasik, a third-grader at the school, said police were checking everybody inside the school before they were escorted to the firehouse.
"We had to walk with a partner," said Wasik, 8. One child leaving the school said that there was shattered glass everywhere. A police officer ran into the classroom and told them to run outside and keep going until the reach the firehouse, The Courant reported.
Dozens of state troopers are on the scene assisting local police. Heavily armed police gathered in front of the school around 10:45 a.m., and a number of stretchers were set up.
The school superintendent's office says the district has locked down schools as a preventive measure to ensure the safety of students and staff. State police spokesman Lt. Paul Vance says they have a number of personnel on the scene to assist.
A 1:30 press conference has been scheduled.
:(
Reports coming out are saying anywhere from one to 12 children dead. The gunman apparently was a parent of a student, walked into a kindergarten classroom, and unloaded on the class.
Christ :(
These are always bad but when they're that young it's just awful, reminds me of Dunblane :(
Now they are saying...!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/connecticut-towns-schools-locked-down-following-shooting-report-153953370.html
QuoteAt least 27 people, including children, were killed on Friday when at least one shooter opened fire at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, CBS News reported, citing unnamed officials.
The shooter, the father of a student there, was also killed, CBS News reported. The principal and school psychologist were among the dead, CNN said.
:(
CBS is saying 27 deaths, 18 of them children.
:(
So horrible.
:(
Goddamn.
Quote from: merithyn on December 14, 2012, 12:45:53 PM
Reports coming out are saying anywhere from one to 12 children dead. The gunman apparently was a parent of a student, walked into a kindergarten classroom, and unloaded on the class.
Reports now saying that it was a 20-something year old man with ties to the school, though not likely a parent.
I'm sick. I'm just sick.
So horrible - there are no words. :(
QuoteNEWTOWN, Conn. (CBS Connecticut/AP) — CBS News is reporting that at least 26 people are dead, including 18 students, after a mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. The gunman is among the dead.
CBS News' John Miller reports there is preliminary information that the gunman was the father of one of the students. Miller additionally reports the gunman is 20 years old and is from New Jersey.
The shooter was killed and apparently had two guns, a person with knowledge of the shooting said. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was still under way. It is not known whether the shooter took his own life or was killed.
CBS News reports that a potential second shooter is in custody and that SWAT is now investigating the home of the suspect.
A witness tells WFSB-TV that a second man was taken out of the woods in handcuffs wearing a black jacket and camouflage pants and telling parents on the scene, "I did not do it."
Fox Connecticut reports that the shooting began in the kindergarten classroom.
"It's just a bad situation," Newtown Assistant Fire Chief Kevin Stoyak told CBS 2.
NPR is reporting that Connecticut is reaching out to other states to help with autopsies because they don't have enough medical examiners.
Two students and a teacher were also injured in the shooting and they were taken to Dansbury Hospital, spokeswoman Diane Burke told CBS News York.
Teachers and police escorted students out of the building following the shooting.
"It was a very orderly evacuation given the circumstances," Connecticut Post reporter Brian Koonz told CBS New York.
One mother tells CBS 2 reporter Lou Young that it's like a "war zone" in Newtown. Her child told Young he had bullets "whizzing by" him in the hallway and that a teacher pulled him into a classroom.
27 killed. Jesus.
stuff like this makes me very very angry. :mad:
It's an elementary school. What the fuck is wrong with some people.
I'd rather this fuck had lived, so he could have that on his conscience for 60 years (or until he fried on death row).
sad
They're just babies. At that age, they really are just babies. I just can't imagine how their parents/families are going to ever deal with this.
Horrifying. Haven't felt this terrible about an attack since Beslan.
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.
One of the articles says the dead gunmen may have been the father of a student. I hate to speculate at times like this but I would guess custody battle gone terribly wrong.
I wouldn't be totally surprised if there was something like a brain tumor involved, like Charles Whitman.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 14, 2012, 02:34:18 PM
I wouldn't be totally surprised if there was something like a brain tumor involved, like Charles Whitman.
I think you give the shooter an out he doesn't deserve.
Someone said that two other people were taken into custody. They had been out in the woods behind the school.
Reports say his mother was a teacher at the school and he may have killed his dad first.
:cry:
Wow.
29 dead now.
QuoteMore than two dozen people, mostly children, were shot and killed at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school this morning by a heavily armed man who was killed inside the building, federal and state sources tell ABC News.
"The shooter is deceased inside the building," Connecticut State Police spokesman Lt. Paul Vance said at a news conference. "The public is not in danger."
The gunman has been identified as Ryan Lanza, 24, of New Jersey. A dead body has also been found in his home, officials said. Sources said Lanza was armed with four weapons and wearing a bullet-proof vest when he opened fire in the elementary school.
Among the dead was the gunman's mother, found in the school, sources told ABC News.
Authorities initially believed that there were two gunmen and were searching cars around the school. It is currently unclear whether there is still a suspect at large.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:37:30 PM
Reports say his mother was a teacher at the school and he may have killed his dad first.
That's what I'm seeing.
QuoteThe gunman, identified as Ryan Lanza, 24, was also found dead at the scene, a federal law enforcement official said. Lanza's mother is a kindergarten teacher at the Newtown school.
Some killings (in like domestic disputes or something) you can almost understand what the guy was thinking. Something like this... it's just incomprehensible.
Quote from: Kleves on December 14, 2012, 02:50:43 PM
Some killings (in like domestic disputes or something) you can almost understand what the guy was thinking. Something like this... it's just incomprehensible.
Yeah. :(
Official Count:
20 kids dead - 18 on scene, 2 at the hospital
6 adults dead
1 dead in the shooter's house (in Newtown, not New Jersey as originally reported)
1 shooter
Total dead: 28
Shootings took place in one section of the school, in two rooms.
Quote from: Kleves on December 14, 2012, 02:50:43 PM
Some killings (in like domestic disputes or something) you can almost understand what the guy was thinking. Something like this... it's just incomprehensible.
Mentally ill I suspect.
Quote from: Valmy on December 14, 2012, 03:43:47 PM
Quote from: Kleves on December 14, 2012, 02:50:43 PM
Some killings (in like domestic disputes or something) you can almost understand what the guy was thinking. Something like this... it's just incomprehensible.
Mentally ill I suspect.
Mental illness can be understood.
Apparently, the authorities are trying to verify which of the Lanza sons carried this out. There are two, and there is no guarantee that it was Ryan. There's also no definitive ID of who was found in the house in Newtown. It could have been the other brother rather than the dad.
The other brother found dead in his apartment.
His mother was a kindergarten teacher, so one can guess that most of the children were under the age of six years old.
My heart just breaks. This is horrorific. Any age is too young, but fuck. Those are babies.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.
The answer always seemed obvious to me. Tens of thousands of people are successfully suicidal each year in US. Suicidal people aren't exactly the ones that are most discouraged by the consequences of their actions. If only a very small percentage of those combine suicidal thoughts with homicidal and sociopathic thoughts at the same time, you'd have a steady stream of mass murders like this.
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2012, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.
The answer always seemed obvious to me. Tens of thousands of people are successfully suicidal each year in US. Suicidal people aren't exactly the ones that are most discouraged by the consequences of their actions. If only a very small percentage of those combine suicidal thoughts with homicidal and sociopathic thoughts at the same time, you'd have a steady stream of mass murders like this.
Yeah, that's the answer you'd expect from an actuary. ;)
I'm more interested in the sort of answer one could get from a psychologist - not why this shit happens a certain number of times given a large enough group, but exactly what motivated this particular person.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2012, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.
The answer always seemed obvious to me. Tens of thousands of people are successfully suicidal each year in US. Suicidal people aren't exactly the ones that are most discouraged by the consequences of their actions. If only a very small percentage of those combine suicidal thoughts with homicidal and sociopathic thoughts at the same time, you'd have a steady stream of mass murders like this.
Yeah, that's the answer you'd expect from an actuary. ;)
I'm more interested in the sort of answer one could get from a psychologist - not why this shit happens a certain number of times given a large enough group, but exactly what motivated this particular person.
:D
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Yeah, that's the answer you'd expect from an actuary. ;)
I'm more interested in the sort of answer one could get from a psychologist - not why this shit happens a certain number of times given a large enough group, but exactly what motivated this particular person.
I think you misunderstood my reply. There are people out there who just have some wires crossed, and don't have inhibitions about causing misery to other people. Normally these people are still not acting on these impulses, because of survival instinct. However, if these psychos are suicidal, then there is nothing to stop them from going out in a blaze of glory.
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
I think it would be better if we didn't sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children. What 'value' does that add?
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
I think it would be better if we didn't sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children. What 'value' does that add?
It's what happens when a gunman runs amok in a school, how is that "sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children" ?
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
I think it would be better if we didn't sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children. What 'value' does that add?
Yeah, leave the kids alone. The last thing they need now is to be made into media spectacles.
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:11:24 PM
It's what happens when a gunman runs amok in a school, how is that "sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children" ?
Filming/photographing terrified children doesn't have to happen. Not that the media shouldn't be able to do - just that I don't like the practice.
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
I think it would be better if we didn't sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children. What 'value' does that add?
It's what happens when a gunman runs amok in a school, how is that "sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children" ?
Let me put it to you this way, if the shooting happened at my kids school and a reporter did that to my kid - the reporter would likely be on bed rest for a number of weeks.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 14, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
I think it would be better if we didn't sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children. What 'value' does that add?
It's what happens when a gunman runs amok in a school, how is that "sensationalize and exploit the emotions of terrified children" ?
Let me put it to you this way, if the shooting happened at my kids school and a reporter did that to my kid - the reporter would likely be on bed rest for a number of weeks.
Garbon was also objecting to "I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot." which is what I found a bit odd.
I understand both sides of that argument. Mongers is saying that people should see the tragedy through the eyes of a child - like in that picture - because it's real. At the same time, they are children and should be shielded from the crassness that is the media.
I think that those photos should be taken - and then held for a set amount of time, like a day or so. The reality is there, those emotions are there, and they should be documented. But it's too visceral to be seen so soon after the tragedy. It just hurts too damn much.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 14, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Let me put it to you this way, if the shooting happened at my kids school and a reporter did that to my kid - the reporter would likely be on bed rest for a number of weeks.
I can see the news headlines now: "scene of tragedy gets surreal as reporters on the scene assaulted by angry giant". ;)
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 14, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Let me put it to you this way, if the shooting happened at my kids school and a reporter did that to my kid - the reporter would likely be on bed rest for a number of weeks.
I can see the news headlines now: "scene of tragedy gets surreal as reporters on the scene assaulted by angry giant". ;)
I live for the limelight
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Yeah, that's the answer you'd expect from an actuary. ;)
I'm more interested in the sort of answer one could get from a psychologist - not why this shit happens a certain number of times given a large enough group, but exactly what motivated this particular person.
My not-so-professional guess: attention. You want to shock the world, how do you do it? The bar is set pretty high. There are entire subcultures out there whose entire purpose is to one-up each other in shocking society. But murdering your entire family, then a bunch of kindergartners in front of your mother, then killing her too... that's going to get everyone's attention. You'll be immortal. You might even get acronymized, like that guy in Norway. All you have to do is become a psychopath.
Quote from: Maximus on December 14, 2012, 05:27:11 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Yeah, that's the answer you'd expect from an actuary. ;)
I'm more interested in the sort of answer one could get from a psychologist - not why this shit happens a certain number of times given a large enough group, but exactly what motivated this particular person.
My not-so-professional guess: attention. You want to shock the world, how do you do it? The bar is set pretty high. There are entire subcultures out there whose entire purpose is to one-up each other in shocking society. But murdering your entire family, then a bunch of kindergartners in front of your mother, then killing her too... that's going to get everyone's attention. You'll be immortal. You might even get acronymized, like that guy in Norway. All you have to do is become a psychopath.
Yeah, that seems plausible. Certainly it has the effect of generating infamy, which is after all a variety of fame.
Quote from: Maximus on December 14, 2012, 05:27:11 PM
that's going to get everyone's attention. You'll be immortal. You might even get acronymized, like that guy in Norway. All you have to do is become a psychopath.
yeah I am afraid this is it.
Seems earlier reports were wrong - the younger brother was the shooter, the older brother is being questioned by the cops.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-suspect-drove-mothers-school-211145701--politics.html
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 05:44:04 PM
Seems earlier reports were wrong - the younger brother was the shooter, the older brother is being questioned by the cops.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-suspect-drove-mothers-school-211145701--politics.html
An extremely unfortunate mistake, assuming the older brother is innocent.
Quote from: merithyn on December 14, 2012, 05:46:25 PM
There was a psychologist on NPR that was saying that the most effective way to end these kinds of tragedies isn't to ban guns, but rather for the media to refuse to agrandize the situations when they occur. Tell the story, but don't name the killer. Give no attention to him/her at all.
For that to work, however, all of the media would have to agree to it, which, as we know, will never happen. In addition, there are always those who need to know why. They'll dig to get the answer of who and why, and then publish it.
I think there is a similarity here to media reports regarding teen suicide as high amounts of publicity may increase increase the liklihood of other teens taking their own lives.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 05:44:04 PM
Seems earlier reports were wrong - the younger brother was the shooter, the older brother is being questioned by the cops.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-suspect-drove-mothers-school-211145701--politics.html
The elder brother, Ryan, apparently was posting on his FB account "It wasn't me" and "I was at work". Can you imagine what that poor man is going through? Bad enough that his brother did such a thing, or that his mother is now dead, but for several hours, the entire world believed that he was the one who did it.
Christ, what an awful, horrible, disgusting situation.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 14, 2012, 05:49:30 PM
I think there is a similarity here to media reports regarding teen suicide as high amounts of publicity may increase increase the liklihood of other teens taking their own lives.
Fair enough. The historian in me believes that these things should be documented, nonetheless. And with documentation by the media usually comes publication of said documentation. If there were a way to have one without the other, I'd be completely for it, but if one has to have one with the other or neither, then I believe that documentation with publication is the appropriate course of action.
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 04:30:23 PM
CNN showed a clip of a kid from the school being interviewed in the parking lot by a local affiliate. I found that kind of creepy and tacky.
Yeah there's definitely some tackiness around this from the media. I didn't really like the picture of upset kids being shuffled through the parking lot.
:blink:
So you want school shootings sanitised, like they've done with warfare ?
I was thinking about this some more and I don't see how the comparison is apt. The problem with the sanitization of warfare is that it leaves people desensitized and removed from the realities of warfare - leading to things like The Gulf War Did Not Take Place.
I don't think that's true though of school shootings. One doesn't need a photo of terrified children running from their lives to feel a chill when reading the headline "Elementary school shooting reported in Newtown, Conn".
The picture of the kids being led out of the school was uncomfortable, but I don't have a real problem with it. The dudes interviewing 7 year olds t the scene was pretty shitty though and made me mad.
Quote from: sbr on December 14, 2012, 06:01:15 PM
The picture of the kids being led out of the school was uncomfortable, but I don't have a real problem with it. The dudes interviewing 7 year olds t the scene was pretty shitty though and made me mad.
That's fair.
Quote from: sbr on December 14, 2012, 06:01:15 PM
The picture of the kids being led out of the school was uncomfortable, but I don't have a real problem with it. The dudes interviewing 7 year olds t the scene was pretty shitty though and made me mad.
Agreed.
Also, here's an article about the questioning of the elder brother. LINK (http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2012/12/connecticut_school_shooting_la.html)
I honestly want to cry for that man. He must be completely in shock right now.
I stopped following this after 22 dead kids. One is too much. Sadly another statistic added to our active shooter training.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 14, 2012, 06:36:38 PM
I stopped following this after 22 dead kids. One is too much. Sadly another statistic added to our active shooter training.
The reality of this is really too horrible to contemplate. When I think of those kids, their families and friends I cant adequately express my sorrow.
Yeah... I'm doing my best not to think of it, to be honest. It's just too terrible.
So horrible, it's beyond words to describe. It makes your heart sick to think of it. I actually wept reading this.
He killed his mother at home, and then went to the school. His intent appears to have been to kill children before he killed himself.
His brother said that he suffered from a "personality disorder". Originally, reports were claiming some form of autism, too, but that seems to have stopped.
Most unfortunate. I don't think 'horror' is the right word, but I am not pleased.
Quote from: Maximus on December 14, 2012, 05:27:11 PM
My not-so-professional guess: attention. You want to shock the world, how do you do it? The bar is set pretty high. There are entire subcultures out there whose entire purpose is to one-up each other in shocking society. But murdering your entire family, then a bunch of kindergartners in front of your mother, then killing her too... that's going to get everyone's attention. You'll be immortal. You might even get acronymized, like that guy in Norway. All you have to do is become a psychopath.
I actually see this as a massively warped and very personal issue. The guy killed his mom, shot her in the face it seems, then he goes and kills the thing she loved - her kids at school. Getting his name in the books was not the horrible twist, it is the personal tragedy of killing his mom and then killing her "kids." This coming from her son makes it incredibly personal and horribly wrong in its twisted intent.
They showed interviews with three more kids on the evening news, and I must say all the kids so far have been eerily composed. :huh:
This is truly horrific. I cannot possibly imagine what the families are going through.
I see a lot of terrible crime in my capacity as the felony prosecutor in Hattiesburg, and we had a mass shooting in May, committed by my friend's son. He was off his meds and got drunk in his local Tex-Mex joint, a Hattiesburg staple. Then he came back and shot the place up. Luckily, no one died. That was a shocking event. Even our gang violence is pretty pathetic in scope; the worst we get is Vice Lords violating gang rules and inappropriately disciplining each other.
Quote from: Scipio on December 14, 2012, 09:44:08 PM
the worst we get is Vice Lords violating gang rules and inappropriately disciplining each other.
Hot? :unsure:
That would be Vice Ladies.
Hey man, I wholeheartedly embrace and endorse all aspects of the lipstick lesbian lifestyle.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiYYJK.png&hash=b9aaeda0173ffc548f979c8cdfad70eaa86a8883)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOotPg.png&hash=ad4e98e6f8841c9d1caaf349041b4e9360145ffa)
I feel horrible that I laughed at this, hopefully some of you are similarly afflicted. -_-
Princesca was just bitching that every Facebook page for all of the Jim Beam products posted the exact same message yesterday. :hmm:
Well they have to cash in on the collective feelings of guilt or sadness while they can.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on December 15, 2012, 08:59:27 AM
Well they have to cash in on the collective feelings of guilt or sadness while they can.
:yes: :blush:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2012, 08:46:22 PM
They showed interviews with three more kids on the evening news, and I must say all the kids so far have been eerily composed. :huh:
We tend to underestimate the ability of children to deal with stuff like this, I think. I believe that most kids can deal with it better than most adults and we're just projecting our own inability to come to grips with it on them.
QuoteConnecticut chief medical examiner H Wayne Carver II said that the victims each suffered three to 11 gunshot wounds and appeared to have died quickly. "All of wounds that I know of were caused by the long weapon," he said, referring to the semi-automatic Bushmaster rifle found at the scene.
Carver said he had seen thousands of gunshot deaths over the years, but nothing to compare to Friday's slaughter at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
"I've been at this for a third of a century," he said, "but this is probably the worst I have seen."
Aside from the parents and families of the victims, the first responders on the scene are just as broken now.
Those little towns, their cops and paramedics don't see mass casualties like that. Hell, even the grizzled vet or the ex-soldier doesn't see that shit in combat. Their noodles are going to be permanently scrambled. You see dead kids once in a while. I've seen a few dead children, some car accidents, drowned, saw an hours-old infant that was tossed in a dumpster once complete with umbilical cord, one burned to the point we thought it was a small animal; they're like dead adults, only smaller. But not in bunches like that.
QuoteIn a first-grade classroom, a boy, seeing that his teacher had been shot, bolted out the back door and kept running, friends said. The boy ended up on Church Hill Road, half a mile away, where a man picked him up and took him to the firehouse where other students were gathered.
Sharp kid. Haul ass. Don't stop. Don't look back.
Reminds me of the time I was in a titty bar in Pensacola when a drunk Mexican popped off a few rounds.
Yes, it's times like that you didi mau most riki tik.
Talk about bad timing:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlanticwire.com%2Fimg%2Fupload%2F2012%2F12%2F14%2Frendered%2F7d6bf1f1eadd420ad679e269c49c64b7_300x158.jpg&hash=666cbcdfcee7c285ece39e52cdcc3feef1a39dea)
Couldn't read the stories in the papers today, the pictures especially were too upsetting. It's simply unimaginable :(
*cackles*
The-US-will-fall-under-the weight-of-its-own-contradictions!
The right to bear arms implies the right to shoot anyone at will.
G.
:lol: Grallon has correctly predicted 14 of the last zero collapses of the US correctly.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
:lol: Grallon has correctly predicted 14 of the last zero collapses of the US correctly.
I only need to be right once ;)
G.
If the contradiction of allowing chattel slavery in a country founded on the principle that all men are created equal couldn't bring us down, the 2nd amendment's not going to get the job done.
Quote from: dps on December 15, 2012, 08:56:46 PM
If the contradiction of allowing chattel slavery in a country founded on the principle that all men are created equal couldn't bring us down, the 2nd amendment's not going to get the job done.
Whatever you say brother *shrug*
G.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
:lol: Grallon has correctly predicted 14 of the last zero collapses of the US correctly.
My favorite was his "throes of a theocracy" proclamation during the Bush years.
Quote from: Grallon on December 15, 2012, 08:47:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
:lol: Grallon has correctly predicted 14 of the last zero collapses of the US correctly.
I only need to be right once ;)
G.
Broken clocks have better records then you do.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2012, 07:56:59 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiYYJK.png&hash=b9aaeda0173ffc548f979c8cdfad70eaa86a8883)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOotPg.png&hash=ad4e98e6f8841c9d1caaf349041b4e9360145ffa)
I feel horrible that I laughed at this, hopefully some of you are similarly afflicted. -_-
It's bullshit publicity stunt for Arby's so people are right to call them out on this. It's a tragedy for families, and a circus for the media and everyone else. Nothing else - more kids probably die each weekend in the US killed by drunk drivers.
Now I know where to go if I'm unsure whether I'm allowed to feel sad about something in the future.
Quote from: Martinus on December 16, 2012, 04:39:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2012, 07:56:59 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiYYJK.png&hash=b9aaeda0173ffc548f979c8cdfad70eaa86a8883)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOotPg.png&hash=ad4e98e6f8841c9d1caaf349041b4e9360145ffa)
I feel horrible that I laughed at this, hopefully some of you are similarly afflicted. -_-
It's bullshit publicity stunt for Arby's so people are right to call them out on this. It's a tragedy for families, and a circus for the media and everyone else. Nothing else - more kids probably die each weekend in the US killed by drunk drivers.
It is definitely a circus for the media, but I doubt there was much corporate thought behind the facebook post from Arby's. They probably have some guy responsible for posting on facebook, he saw a sad current event, and posted a generic sentence about it.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.
Outside of terrorists, I think it's two things:
1. Genuine psychosis.
2. Extreme depression. I read a lot about Dylan Klebold and his family a few years ago, and some of my research at that time lead me to reading about how a small percentage, around 1-2% of people who commit suicide, choose to kill other people when they do so. Usually just a spouse or other close loved one. The thing that has to be understood about clinical depression, when it progresses to the point of genuine suicidal nature, that person's mental state is profoundly altered from that of a healthy person. They are not truly psychotic, as I think maybe the shooter in Aurora was and certainly the the Austin, TX shooter in the 60s (his is a rare example of psychosis coming directly from a physical alteration of the brain in the form of a malignancy around his hippocampus) but they are no longer normal, functioning human beings.
If you read Klebold's journals, and I have, I'd say 99% of them are
masssive hatred and self-loathing for himself, combined with
constant references to how his life is unbearable suffering and misery. I have studied other suicidal people, and they all have these feelings typically of self-loathing, unbearable life etc. Klebold's life from the outside wouldn't have seemed unbearable to most. Good parents, not abused, not significantly bullied in school (that's a common misconception about Klebold and Harris, Klebold was a popular athletic kid growing up and then became depressed and shy and didn't talk to anyone, that is why he wasn't very popular, not because he was picked on or bullied.)
Where Klebold starts to depart from other suicidal people, is in a small number of his writings the vehemence of his self-hate and rage is turned towards others, and he appears
extremely angry at all of humanity, not for anything done to him but because they seemed to enjoy life and he never could. Basically enraged that he seemed to be the only one in the world who was suffering like this while everyone else was happy, he even spoke of how it almost felt like the world was conspiring against him in their happiness.
A lot of attention is given to what I feel are small pieces of Klebold's writings. Namely a paper he wrote in High School that discussed men with trenchcoats murdering high school students and the last few entries in his journal which talked about the actual shooting. But I think to me, the more telling stuff, what gets you to that point, is his depression manifested as extreme hatred and anger for
all of humanity, almost as a sort of rage at his own misery being exacerbated by having to see the rest of society living their lives happily.
When a person is near to the point of suicide, a lot of the natural impulses all humans have are no longer going to be working correctly, it appears in a subset of that population a homicidal rage gets mixed in with it. I'll note that in this case, someone who is so far gone either through psychosis or depression, to kill their own mother, is not doing this for attention. Some killers like BTK obviously
derived pleasure from toying with police and getting attention for himself (and that was his undoing) but it appears t hat was not his primary motivation. Aside from terrorists, who need attention for their attacks to have meaning, I don't really think most people that do stuff like this are doing it for attention at all.
QuoteThe Westboro Baptist Church, that affectionately dub themselves the 'God Hates Fags Church' has announced that the cause of the shootings in a Connecticut primary school was homosexuality.
The church that has picketed the funerals of US servicemen and women killed overseas has announced that it will picket the funerals of the children killed at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut. The church blames the advances in LGBT rights for everything bad that happens to Americans- saying that disasters and deaths are punishments from God for gay equality.
Twenty children and six adults were murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School on Friday. Most of the children that were killed were aged between six and seven.
Shirley Phelps-Roper, the attorney daughter of the church's founder Fred Phelps Tweeted: "Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment."
Another church member Tweeted" "God Almighty smacked USA with #Sandy & she's brazen in her sin still; THEN He gives you a right hook – make that #SandyHook! #RepentingYet??"
The church's founder Fred Phelps Tweeted "That's the message that this evil nation and world need: that God Almighty is on the march & nothing is gonna stop Him."
His son Fred Phelps junior Tweeted: "Beautiful work of an angry God who told Wisconsin to keep their filthy hands off his people (WBC)!"
Gay couples have been able to marry in the state of Connecticut since 2008. In September 2012, the state joined New York and Vermont in launching legal challenges to the federal ban on same-sex marriage and lack of country wide recognition of gay relationships.
Last year, the Supreme Court, with a majority of eight to one, ruled that the church should be allowed to picket funerals by relying on their First Amendment rights to free speech.
In 2009, the British Government placed a ban on members of the church entering the UK due to their attitude to homosexuality.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 16, 2012, 01:30:46 PM
Dylan Klebold
I attended a fantastic LEO forum in 2011 about Columbine; Harris was your run-of-the-mill follower, but the real sicko was Kelbold; general consensus was, if Kelbold didn't do what he did, he would've done something else somewhere along the line. If there was ever a profile for a budding serial killer, it was him. He was definitely going to kill a lot of people sometime in his life: if not then, later on.
Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?
I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of about admitting that - I think for 99% of the people in this thread or outside of it, this is the primary motivation for taking interest in stories like this, whether they realize this or not. The part about this story that attracts our attention is not the death toll (people, including children, die all the time in much greater numbers without anyone taking notice) but the sheer incomprehensiveness of this. That's why we want to learn more because we hope we will understand and this will deal with the fear and anxiety we feel.
So now it looks like he
did use the rifle in the killings (exclusively?) and his mother
didn't work at the school.
QuoteNEWTOWN, Conn. — The gunman in the Connecticut shooting rampage committed suicide as first responders closed in, the state's governor said Sunday, raising the specter that Adam Lanza had planned an even more gruesome massacre and was stopped short.
Lanza blasted his way into the building and used a high-powered rifle to kill 20 children and six adults, including the principal who tried to stop him, authorities said.
As President Barack Obama prepared a visit and churches opened their doors to comfort a grieving town Sunday, federal agents fanned out to dozens of gun stores and shooting ranges across Connecticut, chasing leads they hoped would cast light on Lanza's life.
Among the questions: Why did his mother, a well-to-do suburban divorcee, keep a cache of high-powered weapons in the house? What experience did Lanza have with those guns? And, above all, what set him on a path to go classroom-by-classroom, massacring 6- and 7-year-olds?
Speaking on ABC's "This Week," Gov. Dannel Malloy said Lanza shot himself as police entered the building.
"We surmise that it was during the second classroom episode that he heard responders coming and apparently at that, decided to take his own life," Malloy said.
Malloy offered no possible motive for the shooting and a law enforcement official has said police have found no letters or diaries left behind that could shed light on it.
Lanza shot his mother, Nancy Lanza, to death at the home they shared Friday, then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School in her car with at least three of her guns, forced his way in by breaking a window and opened fire, authorities said. Within minutes, he killed the children, six adults and himself.
All the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined.
All six adults killed at the school were women. Of the 20 children, eight were boys and 12 were girls.
Asked whether the children suffered, Carver said, "If so, not for very long." Asked how many bullets were fired, Carver said, "I'm lucky if I can tell you how many I found."
Parents identified the children through photos to spare them some shock, Carver said.
The terrible details about the last moments of young innocents emerged as authorities released their names and ages — the youngest 6 and 7, the oldest 56. They included Ana Marquez-Greene, a little girl who had just moved to Newtown from Canada; Victoria Soto, a 27-year-old teacher who apparently died while trying to hide her pupils; and principal Dawn Hochsprung, who authorities said lunged at the gunman in an attempt to overtake him.
The tragedy has plunged Newtown into mourning and added the picturesque New England community of 27,000 people to the grim map of towns where mass shootings in recent years have periodically reignited the national debate over gun control but led to little change.
School officials were trying to determine what to do about sending the survivors back to class, Newtown police Lt. George Sinko said at a news conference Sunday.
Sinko said he "would find it very difficult" for students to return to the school. But, he added, "we want to keep these kids together. They need to support each other," he said.
Plans were being made for some students to attend classes in nearby Monroe, said Jim Agostine, superintendent of schools there.
Residents and faith leaders reflected Sunday on the mass shooting and what meaning, if any, to find in it. Obama planned to attend an interfaith vigil — the fourth time he will have traveled to a city after a mass shooting.
Related: Obama to speak at vigil for Conn. shooting victims
At Saint Rose of Lima Roman Catholic church, Jennifer Waters, who at 6 is the same age as many of the victims and attends a different school, came to Mass on Sunday in Newtown with a lot of questions.
"The little children — are they with the angels?" she asked her mother while fiddling with a small plastic figurine on a pew near the back of the church. "Are they going to live with the angels?"
Her mother, Joan, 45, assured her they were, then put a finger to her daughter's lips, urging her to be quiet.
An overflow crowd of more than 800 people attended the 9 a.m. service at the church, where eight children will be buried later this week. The gunman, Adam Lanza, and his mother also attended church here. Spokesman Brian Wallace said the diocese has yet to be asked to provide funerals for either.
Boxes of tissues were placed strategically in each pew and on each window sill. The altar was adorned with bouquets, one shaped as a broken heart, with a zigzag of red carnations cutting through the white ones.
In his homily, the Rev. Jerald Doyle, the diocesan administrator, tried to answer the question of how parishioners could find joy in the holiday season with so much sorrow surrounding them.
"You won't remember what I say, and it will become unimportant," he said. "But you will really hear deep down that word that will finally and ultimately bring peace and joy. That is the word by which we live. That is the word by which we hope. That is the word by which we love."
After the Mass, Joan and Jennifer stopped by a makeshift memorial outside the church, which was filled with votive candles and had a pile of bouquets and stuffed animals underneath, to pray the Lord's Prayer.
Jennifer asked whether she could take one.
"No, those are for the little children," her mother replied.
"Who died?" her daughter asked.
"Yes," said her mother, wiping away a tear.
Amid the confusion and sorrow, stories of heroism emerged, including an account of Hochsprung, 47, and the school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, 56, rushing toward Lanza in an attempt to stop him. Both died.
There was also 27-year-old teacher Victoria Soto, whose name has been invoked as a portrait of selflessness. Investigators told relatives she was killed while shielding her first-graders from danger. She reportedly hid some students in a bathroom or closet, ensuring they were safe, a cousin, Jim Wiltsie, told ABC News.
"She put those children first. That's all she ever talked about," a friend, Andrea Crowell, told The Associated Press. "She wanted to do her best for them, to teach them something new every day."
There was also 6-year-old Emilie Parker, whose grieving father, Robbie, talked to reporters not long after police released the names of the victims but expressed no animosity, offering sympathy for Lanza's family.
"I can't imagine how hard this experience must be for you," he said.
The gunman's father, Peter Lanza, issued a statement relating his own family's anguish in the aftermath.
"Our family is grieving along with all those who have been affected by this enormous tragedy. No words can truly express how heartbroken we are," he said. "We are in a state of disbelief and trying to find whatever answers we can. We too are asking why. ... Like so many of you, we are saddened, but struggling to make sense of what has transpired."
The rifle used was a Bushmaster .223-caliber, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation who was not authorized to speak about it and talked on condition of anonymity. The gun is commonly seen at competitions and was the type used in the 2002 sniper killings in the Washington, D.C., area. Also found in the school were two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm.
A law enforcement official said Saturday that authorities were investigating fresh leads that could reveal more about the lead-up to the shooting. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.
Ginger Colbrun, spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said earlier there was no evidence Lanza was involved in gun clubs or had trained for the shooting. When reached later in the day and asked whether that was still true, she said, "We're following any and all leads related to this individual and firearms."
Law enforcement officials have said they have found no note or manifesto from Lanza of the sort they have come to expect after murderous rampages such as the Virginia Tech bloodbath in 2007 that left 33 people dead.
Education officials said they had found no link between Lanza's mother and the school, contrary to news reports that said she was a teacher there. Investigators said they believe Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook many years ago, but they had no explanation for why he went there Friday.
Authorities said Adam Lanza had no criminal history, and it was not clear whether he had a job. Lanza was believed to have suffered from a personality disorder, said a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Another law enforcement official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said Lanza also had been diagnosed with Asperger's, a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.
People with the disorder are often highly intelligent. While they can become frustrated more easily, there is no evidence of a link between Asperger's and violent behavior, experts say.
The law enforcement officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the unfolding investigation.
Richard Novia, the school district's head of security until 2008, who also served as adviser for the high school technology club, of which Lanza was a member, said he clearly "had some disabilities."
"If that boy would've burned himself, he would not have known it or felt it physically," Novia said in a phone interview. "It was my job to pay close attention to that."
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 16, 2012, 01:38:41 PMI attended a fantastic LEO forum in 2011 about Columbine; Harris was your run-of-the-mill follower, but the real sicko was Kelbold; general consensus was, if Kelbold didn't do what he did, he would've done something else somewhere along the line. If there was ever a profile for a budding serial killer, it was him. He was definitely going to kill a lot of people sometime in his life: if not then, later on.
I've never read as much about Harris, I think maybe there is not as much available on him because he didn't keep so many writings. Klebold wrote a
ton of shit. I hadn't thought of him in comparison to a "normal" serial killer (as opposed to a spree killer) before, but his rage against humanity collectively is definitely something I've heard a lot of serial killers either express or people who have studied them have noted.
Whatever makes someone become suicidal, and in Klebold's case it really does seem like a true mystery, Klebold's definitely manifested in a very strange way. All that self-loathing and misery is pretty run of the mill for someone getting ready to off themselves, but then the outward directed rage is where if anyone had read his stuff before he acted you'd think it would have set off massive warning bells.
I remember before I knew a lot about Klebold I assumed his parents either abused him, he was bullied a lot, and/or his parents were just bad parents. But none of those things really appears to be true, at least that I've ever seen. It's like around mid-junior high, he want from being athletic, outgoing, lots of friends, to being shy and quiet. He was a gifted kid academically and then went to being very average grade wise, as if he had lost all interest in school.
I've seen interviews with his mom, and read an essay she wrote, according to her both her and her husband knew sometime early High School he was no longer happy in school. But they said they did talk to him about it, encourage him, try to get him to open up etc and while they felt he remained somewhat unhappy according to them it wasn't nearly so bad that they thought he had any serious problems. When him and Harris broke into a van, they became convinced that those two weren't a good influence on each other and they were not allowed to see each other for a long time afterward. According to her, once they lifted that restriction it seemed that Dylan himself chose to disassociate with Harris of his own accord. They even said that was encouraging to them as a sign that maybe Dylan was turning a corner.
They thought in his senior year he might have some angst about going away to college, and talked about it with him a good bit (he had been accepted at U. of Arizona), but he seemed genuinely interested in going away versus staying at home. When addressing the trenchcoat killer story Dylan wrote, his mother mentioned that she and her husband went in for a parent teacher conference where the teacher who read the writing was present. That teacher
did not tell them what the writing was about, only that it was "disturbed" and "alarming." His parents asked if they could read it, and the teacher said she wanted to talk with a colleague about it to ascertain whether they thought it was a serious matter or maybe just a student writing inappropriate fiction, and once they had decided they'd contact the parents to let them know if they thought it a good idea to give the writing to them to read. They never heard from that teacher again, and she said that she assumed they decided the writing wasn't so serious...she was pretty upset (obviously) when she found out what the writing actually contained. (By and large Klebold's parents did not have any access to any of Dylan's writings until about six months after the shooting, when local law enforcement released those writings to them.)
If you believe the Klebold's in their description of Dylan's life, I think it's obvious he was an unhappy kid but nothing that would make me (and my daughter isn't that age yet) as a parent think "we need to get this kid professional help, this kid needs immediate intervention etc." They did try talking to him, and he was communicative and usually was able to explain himself to them in a way that kept them from thinking there was a truly serious problem afoot.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 16, 2012, 01:56:46 PM
(he had been accepted at U. of Arizona),
A clue!
QuoteIf you believe the Klebold's in their description of Dylan's life, I think it's obvious he was an unhappy kid but nothing that would make me (and my daughter isn't that age yet) as a parent think "we need to get this kid professional help, this kid needs immediate intervention etc." They did try talking to him, and he was communicative and usually was able to explain himself to them in a way that kept them from thinking there was a truly serious problem afoot.
Yeah, he knew what he was doing with his parents to keep them off his trail, as they would be his biggest obstacle to anything he wanted to accomplish. He was as manipulative with them as he was with Harris, knowing exactly what he was doing with those individuals around him. A true sociopath.
Seedy you sound jealous.
I failed at sociopathy. :cry:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 16, 2012, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 16, 2012, 01:56:46 PM
(he had been accepted at U. of Arizona),
A clue!
QuoteIf you believe the Klebold's in their description of Dylan's life, I think it's obvious he was an unhappy kid but nothing that would make me (and my daughter isn't that age yet) as a parent think "we need to get this kid professional help, this kid needs immediate intervention etc." They did try talking to him, and he was communicative and usually was able to explain himself to them in a way that kept them from thinking there was a truly serious problem afoot.
Yeah, he knew what he was doing with his parents to keep them off his trail, as they would be his biggest obstacle to anything he wanted to accomplish. He was as manipulative with them as he was with Harris, knowing exactly what he was doing with those individuals around him. A true sociopath.
Sure you don't have those switched up? I've heard the opposite.
Meh, maybe; it was catered, and I was drowsy.
Guns are cheaper than psychiatric help.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2012, 02:24:23 PM
Sure you don't have those switched up? I've heard the opposite.
Meaning Harris was the leader and Klebold the follower, right? If so then that's what I had thought as well.
Quote from: Caliga on December 16, 2012, 02:39:47 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2012, 02:24:23 PM
Sure you don't have those switched up? I've heard the opposite.
Meaning Harris was the leader and Klebold the follower, right? If so then that's what I had thought as well.
Yeah, that's what Wikipedia says. And Wikipedia is never wrong.
Quote from: Caliga on December 16, 2012, 02:39:47 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2012, 02:24:23 PM
Sure you don't have those switched up? I've heard the opposite.
Meaning Harris was the leader and Klebold the follower, right? If so then that's what I had thought as well.
I think Seedy may be talking more about Harris with the sociopathy stuff, too. I don't know much about Harris (I don't know if he kept detailed journals like Klebold did), but Klebold was much more of the depressed/suicidal mindset than true sociopathy. Klebold and Harris both, from what I can tell, were very good at convincing adults they weren't seriously disturbed. When they go into trouble breaking into the van, both made extremely good impressions on the juvenile court judge and the probation officer that handled their community service/etc they had to do in order to get their record expunged. They actually got released from that program early because the case worker thought they were such good kids who had just made a mistake. So both had a talent for masking.
If you ever read Klebold's mother's essay she wrote (I think originally for the Oprah web page) it is really troubling how she described her son...because there
really wasn't any major red flags. The one serious red flag would have been his short story about trench coat wearing men committing a school massacre, but school officials decided not to share the content of that short story with her. After the van incident, both the parents of Klebold and Harris thought they were not really close friends any longer. At first they were no longer allowed to see each other as there was a feeling they were a bad influence on each other, but even after that prohibition was lifted they weren't close friends (at least outwardly) like before. However a few nights before the shooting, Harris spent the night at Klebold's house for the first time in a long time. It's possible they had masked their continuing friendship from their parents since it had received unwanted attention, only acting openly closer to the end.
I've always wondered, the day of the shooting Klebold got up early to drive to school. His mother said he was typically hard to get up in the morning so she was shocked when she heard him come out of his room and head to the driveway so early. She tried to stop him to talk, but he acted in a hurry and just shouted "bye" and kept going. She assumed that maybe he had agreed to pick someone up for school (I guess he had done that before) and was busy. I've always wondered what would have happened if she had actually stopped him and seen him, because in her account she never actually got a look at him, just saw him whiz past and yell "bye" when she called after him. Most likely with all the ordinance he was carrying she would have noticed, makes you wonder if he would have killed her too.
That's a very interesting article OvB, thanks for bringing it up.
Lanza's psychology is seemingly pretty far removed from garden variety antisocial personality disorder or depression. There is no dynamic relationship to be caught up in. Purposefully targeting the most innocent members of society with seemingly no connection to yourself. Very strange.
Seems to have far closer relationship with recent mass attacks in East Asia than workplace or school massacres. Can't think of close American parallels.
Given the fact that the end of the world is coming, the economy is going to collapse, and that Obama is going to steal all the guns I am surprises that there haven't been more crazy things happening. In a way, it gives on faith in the inertia of inactivity in the face of human stupidity.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 16, 2012, 01:56:46 PM
I remember before I knew a lot about Klebold I assumed his parents either abused him, he was bullied a lot, and/or his parents were just bad parents. But none of those things really appears to be true, at least that I've ever seen. It's like around mid-junior high, he want from being athletic, outgoing, lots of friends, to being shy and quiet. He was a gifted kid academically and then went to being very average grade wise, as if he had lost all interest in school.
This immediately makes me wonder if he were sexually assaulted at some point in there. It often has that affect on children, happens often to boys at that age, and isn't something they would ever talk about even in their own personal writings for fear someone would find it and label them "queer".
I heard on TV that the school psychologist was killed. Talk about in the wrong place at the wrong time. Out of the 30 or 50 or whatever number of schools that the psychologist was responsible for, she had to visit that particular school at that time.
QuoteCBS NEWS/ December 17, 2012, 4:20 AM
Ex-babysitter: Mother of Newtown, Conn. school shooter Adam Lanza warned me about him
HERMOSA BEACH A man who says he once babysat for Newtown, Conn. gunman Adam Lanza says he recalls Lanza's mother warning him never to turn his back on the boy - not even to go to the bathroom.
Ryan Kraft now lives in Hermosa Beach, in Southern California.
But, he tells CBS station KCBS in Los Angeles, he was once a student at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., and babysat for Lanza when Lanza was about 9 or 10 and Kraft was 14 or 15.
Police say Lanza, 20, went on a rampage in the school Friday, killing 20 six- and seven-year-olds and six adults before taking his own life. Lanza also shot his mother, Nancy Lanza, to death in the nearby home they shared before heading to the school, authorities say.
The brief, enigmatic life of mass-murderer Adam Lanza
Kraft tells KCBS when he first heard about the shooting and that Lanza was involved, "I just couldn't think for a little while. I was shaking."
He says he recalls Nancy Lanza cautioning him never to turn his back on Adam -- "to keep an eye on him at all times ... to never turn my back, or even to go to the bathroom or anything like that."
Kraft says he remembers Lanza as quiet, very intelligent and introverted, noting, "Whenever we were doing something, whether it was building Legos, or playing video games, he was really focused on it. It was like he was in his own world."
Kraft is still having trouble believing the kid he babysat could have been involved in such unspeakable horror. "I'm just numb to it, I haven't really processed the fact that this happened right where I used to be, and that, 15 years ago, it could have been me."
Nancy Lanza, says Kraft, was very involved in her children's lives and loved them very much.
He says that, rather than feeling helpless, he decided to start a fundraiser to help the children of Newton, especially the ones who will be dealing with post traumatic stress disorder.
Kraft, who moved to California after college, also wants the money to go to helping families pay funeral expenses and to help establish a scholarship fund for survivors.
Kraft's fundraising page took in more than $53,000 in one day.
© 2012 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
That's a strange thing for a mother to say, I wonder if it was meant as "he's prone to dangerous behavior" or more "he can't be trusted not to injure himself." Something I've heard from mental health professionals is these days parents won't turn their kids over to group homes or institutions like they would have in the 60s/70s. The feeling is, if you have a messed up kid it's your job to give up your career and do everything possible to keep them in the home. But sometimes kids are too profoundly mentally ill, developmentally disabled or etc to be safely cared for in the home, by even the most attentive parents.
Quote"I Am Adam Lanza's Mother": When Parents Are Afraid of Their Children
By Susanna Schrobsdorff Dec. 17, 2012
Most parents in the United States have spent the last few days imagining what it would be like to be the mother or father of one of the 20 little school children murdered on Friday in Connecticut. Each detail that emerges from that stricken community brings many of us to tears. And of course we think, what if a madman came our child's school in a rage with a gun?
But there's another group of parents who watched this horror story unfurl with an opposite and perhaps more excruciating thought—what if the madman were my child?
These mothers and fathers, parents of mentally ill children and young adults can't say that they are afraid of their own children or admit that they know what it's like to have a bright child whose rages could, under circumstances they can't predict, lead them to kill innocent people the way that Adam Lanza is alleged to have done at Sandy Hook Elementary. And they can't find comfort in the wake of a national tragedy by sharing their feelings around the water cooler like the rest of do.
(MORE: A Blood Test for Autism?)
But this week, one of these mothers stepped forward with an eloquent, wrenching cry for help that has echoed across the web. In a blog post republished on The Blue Review entitled "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother," Liza Long writes: "I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me...."
She goes on: "I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am James Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness."
Long describes the love she has for her 13-year-old son, a brilliant boy who loves Harry Potter and has a "snuggle animal collection." But according to her, this same child has also threatened her with a knife so many times that she keeps a Tupperware container for the days she has to collect all the sharp objects in the house. Nothing really helps she says: the powerful meds, the intermittent hospitalizations, or what she calls a "Russian novel of behavioral plans." She says she's trained trained her other children to lock themselves away for their own safety when their brother falls into one of his unpredictable rages.
(PHOTOS: Newtown–Images of a Community in Mourning)
She lays out agonizing choices she says she's been given which include having her child charged with a crime so that he is put in prison, a place that would surely exacerbate his symptoms and would not necessarily keep him or the community safe. After all, you can't keep someone indefinitely locked up for a terrible crime they haven't committed, and will likely never commit.
It's a world of family turmoil that most of us can't begin to comprehend and which may or may not be similar to struggles of Adam Lanza's mother, but in any case, Long's essay resonated and the response has been enormous. The piece has been forwarded endlessly on Facebook and reblogged by national media sites. And more than 1,500 people have commented on Long's original blog post.
Most commenters wrote to express their sympathies but there were also many who wanted to tell Long that she is not alone. These are people we don't normally hear from unless a tragedy occurs. They are the mothers, the fathers, and the siblings of boys like Michael. These are the parents who report having to hide their knives or sleep with their bedroom doors locked. And in some cases, the commenters were young men who say they are plagued by the same demons as Long's son.
Their testimonies form a trail of heartbreak that stretches for dozens of pages.
"Your story is my story and it is a very scary and often lonely path," writes one parent. "As my son gets older and stronger the fear of what may be looms closer and closer and I just want to have the smart, sensitive sweet boy with me all the time, not the boy that when he says he wants to kill me, I believe him. The boy who wants to be tucked in at night with his stuffed animals and snuggles our dog, not the boy who can lift me off the ground in a rage and slam me into a wall. I pray daily for some kind of help."
"Rachael" writes to say that her brother is a boy like Michael—evidence of the pain that these illnesses can cause an entire family: "I can't believe it. You just described my brother. They say he's aspergers, but I don't know if that accounts for all of it. He's normally really sweet, sensitive, and very very smart, but when he snaps, he curses, hurts people, throws things, threatens suicide, and pulls knives. I have scars from where he's scratched or strangled me."
Some commenters send suggestions for treatments that have worked for them from diets to 24/7 hospitalization. Some even suggest that Long subject her son to an exorcism which speaks to the longstanding and devastating connection that is made between mental illness and evil.
And perhaps the most striking comments came from boys like Michael: "I was your son," writes one. "I feel for you and him both. You sound exactly like my mother, to a T. It is really hard to see these scenarios play out for another family. I feel for you and him both.
I refused pharmaceutical medication and bucked every diagnosis thrown at me."
This young man goes onto say that spending time in nature, watching comedy and listening to a radio advice line called "Love Line" helped him. But for so many, the problem is beyond that. And for their parents, the years after their troubled children leave home are just as fraught as the time before. "Robert" writes: "We have a son with mental illness. Now that he is an 'adult' in the eyes of the law, he's decided he does not want to pursue any sort of treatment. Our hands are tied."
With mass murders increasing in frequency, getting young men like that treatment is a national issue. Nevada and New York are among a few states that have some legal measures parents and relatives can take (with the recommendation of psychiatrists) to mandate that over-18 year-olds get outpatient psychiatric care when warranted. But often, mothers and fathers are left with the all the worry and very little control. (Those laws, like Kendra's Law and Laura's Law, are named for people who've been killed by the mentally ill.)
And it's because of the terrible specter not just of more massacres, but also of the numerous other incidents of violence that don't make the national news, that Long's post is becoming a rallying cry for those fighting to get increased access and funding for mental health services. "HOW CAN WE HELP?" asked one of the commenters. It's a question that the nation should certainly be asking as we debate how to prevent tragedies like the one that has devastated Newtown.
by Taboola
I should mention I'm not totally blaming parents of the mentally ill for not hospitalizing them. Most States there are treatment centers you can force your child into until 18, but at 18 a mental health commissioner can decide they are not an imminent threat to self or others and then the best you could get is a temporary psychiatric hold anytime they do something...but most likely unless they are full on psychotic they'll be approved for release quickly and be back in the community.
When my wife did her psychiatric rotation she talked about a guy who had killed two people outside before basically being sent to the state psychiatric hospital for life. (There is no such thing as a life commitment, but he is considered untreatable and a threat at all times.) So this guy, he is so psychotic if he's off his meds for any period of time he becomes homicidal. This has happened twice while in the State hospital. One time when it happened, he killed a nurse. The other time, he beat another patient unconscious then propped the leg of a bed up on the side of the guy's head and then jumped on the bed--watermelon city. Now he's medicated 24/7. The only medications that keep him under control basically make him a drooling vegetable, but if they miss even one dosing he becomes violently dangerous.
Those are the easy cases. It's obvious that guy is simply untreatably mentally ill and should never be in society, in truth I think he's a good candidate for euthanasia as he gets virtually no enjoyment out of life drugged but is a violent monster without. But unfortunately he's quite rare, most mentally ill people who
are dangerous are often perfectly fine at times, and if those times last long enough they can get approved for release by psychiatrists.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 17, 2012, 06:39:33 AM
I heard on TV that the school psychologist was killed. Talk about in the wrong place at the wrong time. Out of the 30 or 50 or whatever number of schools that the psychologist was responsible for, she had to visit that particular school at that time.
Most school districts have psychologists that are usually attached to only one school, Mono, depending on budget and student size. That one was hers.
Big difference between here and your hive mind collective culture.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 17, 2012, 06:39:33 AM
I heard on TV that the school psychologist was killed. Talk about in the wrong place at the wrong time. Out of the 30 or 50 or whatever number of schools that the psychologist was responsible for, she had to visit that particular school at that time.
:huh: Mono, in US, even home schools have a full time psychiatrist. Those prescriptions for ADD medicine don't write themselves. Besides, if she were commuting to 30-50 different schools, she'd need her own private jet.
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 09:07:11 AM
:huh: Mono, in US, even home schools have a full time psychiatrist. Those prescriptions for ADD medicine don't write themselves. Besides, if she were commuting to 30-50 different schools, she'd need her own private jet.
They're the main drivers in identifying and dealing with learning disabilities, in addition to behavioral issues.
Most affluent school districts, such as the one Sandy Hook is in, usually has a full-time psychiatrist attached to a school. Now, Detroit's public school system, maybe not so much.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 08:22:25 AM
That's a strange thing for a mother to say, I wonder if it was meant as "he's prone to dangerous behavior" or more "he can't be trusted not to injure himself." Something I've heard from mental health professionals is these days parents won't turn their kids over to group homes or institutions like they would have in the 60s/70s. The feeling is, if you have a messed up kid it's your job to give up your career and do everything possible to keep them in the home. But sometimes kids are too profoundly mentally ill, developmentally disabled or etc to be safely cared for in the home, by even the most attentive parents.
Perhaps but this could just as well mean the mother is a paranoid lunatic and this could have been her way of saying "make sure you take good care of my kid".
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 08:22:25 AM
That's a strange thing for a mother to say, I wonder if it was meant as "he's prone to dangerous behavior" or more "he can't be trusted not to injure himself." Something I've heard from mental health professionals is these days parents won't turn their kids over to group homes or institutions like they would have in the 60s/70s. The feeling is, if you have a messed up kid it's your job to give up your career and do everything possible to keep them in the home. But sometimes kids are too profoundly mentally ill, developmentally disabled or etc to be safely cared for in the home, by even the most attentive parents.
I was under the impression parents who desperately want their dangerous kids turned over to institutions and group homes cannot get help, that their kids actually have to commit a crime before anybody will help them. I guess both could be true.
Quote from: Martinus on December 17, 2012, 09:14:04 AM
Perhaps but this could just as well mean the mother is a paranoid lunatic and this could have been her way of saying "make sure you take good care of my kid".
It could but the circumstances sort of suggest otherwise.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:21:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 17, 2012, 09:14:04 AM
Perhaps but this could just as well mean the mother is a paranoid lunatic and this could have been her way of saying "make sure you take good care of my kid".
It could but the circumstances sort of suggest otherwise.
My suspicion is: a hefty dose of hindsight leading to a moment of fame for said babysitter.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:21:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 17, 2012, 09:14:04 AM
Perhaps but this could just as well mean the mother is a paranoid lunatic and this could have been her way of saying "make sure you take good care of my kid".
It could but the circumstances sort of suggest otherwise.
Well, we also know that the mother is a paranoid lunatic, so it's a toss.
Quote from: Malthus on December 17, 2012, 09:27:15 AM
My suspicion is: a hefty dose of hindsight leading to a moment of fame for said babysitter.
Well considering he is using the moment of fame to raise money for the Newton kids I guess we can let that go.
Quote from: Martinus on December 17, 2012, 09:28:16 AM
Well, we also know that the mother is a paranoid lunatic, so it's a toss.
Do we now?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2012, 08:57:48 AM
Most school districts have psychologists that are usually attached to only one school, Mono, depending on budget and student size. That one was hers.
:yes: My mom was actually one of those until she retired this past summer.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:20:33 AMI was under the impression parents who desperately want their dangerous kids turned over to institutions and group homes cannot get help, that their kids actually have to commit a crime before anybody will help them. I guess both could be true.
It depends on where you want them, if you say your kid has a mental or behavioral problem and needs treatment, all of the 50 states, to my knowledge, have quasi-public institutions that handle these cases. In the 70s/80s the trend started where you moved away from State institutions aside from basically the criminally insane and the extremely hard to handle cases (in Virginia State mental hospitals are over 50% filled with people a court has deemed not guilty of a crime by reason of insanity.)
In the place of the old system of State ran "reform schools" and etc, you have adult group homes, child group homes etc. They are ran by quasi-public "companies" that are private/for-profit usually but heavily government ran (similar to the utility company model.) These companies do not require any legal commitment for a parent to house a problem child. But they do have limited beds, so you might end up on a waiting list. Usually these entities will accept the child and that acceptance makes the parents able to receive at least part of the funding from Federal sources.
Now if you have a problem child and you do not want to wait on a bed to open up, or in the rare cases the private entity simply says they are not interested or do not think your child belongs there, you can send them to one of the group homes totally outside the State system. These however are usually unsubsidized by State & Federal government and costs for annual treatment are in the tens of thousands.
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 09:07:11 AM
:huh: Mono, in US, even home schools have a full time psychiatrist. Those prescriptions for ADD medicine don't write themselves.
Psychiatrist /= psychologist. The lady who got gunned down did not have prescription writing ability.
ITS NOT A CLIP ITS A MAGAZINE
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:38:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 09:07:11 AM
:huh: Mono, in US, even home schools have a full time psychiatrist. Those prescriptions for ADD medicine don't write themselves.
Psychiatrist /= psychologist. The lady who got gunned down did not have prescription writing ability.
D was clearly making a joke.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 09:34:47 AM
It depends on where you want them, if you say your kid has a mental or behavioral problem and needs treatment, all of the 50 states, to my knowledge, have quasi-public institutions that handle these cases. In the 70s/80s the trend started where you moved away from State institutions aside from basically the criminally insane and the extremely hard to handle cases (in Virginia State mental hospitals are over 50% filled with people a court has deemed not guilty of a crime by reason of insanity.)
In the place of the old system of State ran "reform schools" and etc, you have adult group homes, child group homes etc. They are ran by quasi-public "companies" that are private/for-profit usually but heavily government ran (similar to the utility company model.) These companies do not require any legal commitment for a parent to house a problem child. But they do have limited beds, so you might end up on a waiting list. Usually these entities will accept the child and that acceptance makes the parents able to receive at least part of the funding from Federal sources.
Now if you have a problem child and you do not want to wait on a bed to open up, or in the rare cases the private entity simply says they are not interested or do not think your child belongs there, you can send them to one of the group homes totally outside the State system. These however are usually unsubsidized by State & Federal government and costs for annual treatment are in the tens of thousands.
Yeah I used to work at a place for really troubled kids and we did have a few privately funded kids who were getting treatment on their parents' (usually adopted for some reason) cash. But generally if they were there on the public dime they were either in the foster care system or the juvenile detention system. But how it actually works, like if I thought one of my sons was legitimately dangerously mentally ill, I am not sure specifically. I guess I should ask my parents they both work in this field.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2012, 09:40:09 AM
ITS NOT A CLIP ITS A MAGAZINE
Well yes a psychologist and psychiatrist work together. It was a little awkward when I dropped my psychiatrist but kept my psychologist as both worked in the same 3-person practice. -_-
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 09:42:49 AM
Well yes a psychologist and psychiatrist work together. It was a little awkward when I dropped my psychiatrist but kept my psychologist as both worked in the same 3-person practice. -_-
So tell me about your mother, garbon.
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 09:40:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:38:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 09:07:11 AM
:huh: Mono, in US, even home schools have a full time psychiatrist. Those prescriptions for ADD medicine don't write themselves.
Psychiatrist /= psychologist. The lady who got gunned down did not have prescription writing ability.
D was clearly making a joke.
What was the joke? That he is unable to read?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 09:34:47 AM
It depends on where you want them, if you say your kid has a mental or behavioral problem and needs treatment, all of the 50 states, to my knowledge, have quasi-public institutions that handle these cases. In the 70s/80s the trend started where you moved away from State institutions aside from basically the criminally insane and the extremely hard to handle cases (in Virginia State mental hospitals are over 50% filled with people a court has deemed not guilty of a crime by reason of insanity.)
In the place of the old system of State ran "reform schools" and etc, you have adult group homes, child group homes etc. They are ran by quasi-public "companies" that are private/for-profit usually but heavily government ran (similar to the utility company model.) These companies do not require any legal commitment for a parent to house a problem child. But they do have limited beds, so you might end up on a waiting list. Usually these entities will accept the child and that acceptance makes the parents able to receive at least part of the funding from Federal sources.
Now if you have a problem child and you do not want to wait on a bed to open up, or in the rare cases the private entity simply says they are not interested or do not think your child belongs there, you can send them to one of the group homes totally outside the State system. These however are usually unsubsidized by State & Federal government and costs for annual treatment are in the tens of thousands.
Budget is a major factor. Valmy is right. At least in Illinois, it's nearly impossible to have your child "committed" to a home unless they've hurt someone or otherwise broke the law.
A friend of mine was just telling us this morning about his friend's son who is in a rehabilitation home up in Chicago and has been for the last six months or so. The boy, now 16 years old, has threatened to kill his mother multiple times, has drawn a knife on her, and has beat her up. They are releasing him due to budgetary concerns. Because he's a minor, she's required to take him back in. (The dad is nowhere to be found.) If he ends up on the street because she refused him, she would be arrested for child endangerment. If he runs away, she can let it go after she reports it, but if she shuts him out, it's a felony.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:46:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 09:40:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 09:38:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 09:07:11 AM
:huh: Mono, in US, even home schools have a full time psychiatrist. Those prescriptions for ADD medicine don't write themselves.
Psychiatrist /= psychologist. The lady who got gunned down did not have prescription writing ability.
D was clearly making a joke.
What was the joke? That he is unable to read?
His joke about how everyone is over-medicated by psychiatrists.
Quote from: Caliga on December 17, 2012, 09:46:30 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 09:42:49 AM
Well yes a psychologist and psychiatrist work together. It was a little awkward when I dropped my psychiatrist but kept my psychologist as both worked in the same 3-person practice. -_-
So tell me about your mother, garbon.
Thankfully I didn't see anyone carrying on with such bullshit as psychodynamic theory. :)
Freud was one of the biggest quacks in all of history... right up there with Lysenko. :bowler:
Quote from: Caliga on December 17, 2012, 10:01:07 AM
Freud was one of the biggest quacks in all of history... right up there with Lysenko. :bowler:
Eh I don't think that is fair. I mean he was wrong and alot of his ideas seem idiotic today but he was the first guy in the field. You got to start somewhere.
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 09:58:37 AM
His joke about how everyone is over-medicated by psychiatrists.
Well obviously. I just did not get why that joke was being made about a psyhologist so I thought maybe he had read 'psychologist' and thought 'psychiatrist'.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 10:11:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 09:58:37 AM
His joke about how everyone is over-medicated by psychiatrists.
Well obviously. I just did not get why that joke was being made about a psyhologist so I thought maybe he had read 'psychologist' and thought 'psychiatrist'.
I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about D's throwaway (and admittedly crappy) lines. :huh:
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 10:12:28 AM
I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about D's throwaway (and admittedly crappy) lines. :huh:
How am I getting worked up? I just thought I was making a simple post correcting him.
Because it was a throw-away and we're still talking about it. -_-
Quote from: merithyn on December 17, 2012, 09:50:23 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 09:34:47 AM
It depends on where you want them, if you say your kid has a mental or behavioral problem and needs treatment, all of the 50 states, to my knowledge, have quasi-public institutions that handle these cases. In the 70s/80s the trend started where you moved away from State institutions aside from basically the criminally insane and the extremely hard to handle cases (in Virginia State mental hospitals are over 50% filled with people a court has deemed not guilty of a crime by reason of insanity.)
In the place of the old system of State ran "reform schools" and etc, you have adult group homes, child group homes etc. They are ran by quasi-public "companies" that are private/for-profit usually but heavily government ran (similar to the utility company model.) These companies do not require any legal commitment for a parent to house a problem child. But they do have limited beds, so you might end up on a waiting list. Usually these entities will accept the child and that acceptance makes the parents able to receive at least part of the funding from Federal sources.
Now if you have a problem child and you do not want to wait on a bed to open up, or in the rare cases the private entity simply says they are not interested or do not think your child belongs there, you can send them to one of the group homes totally outside the State system. These however are usually unsubsidized by State & Federal government and costs for annual treatment are in the tens of thousands.
Budget is a major factor. Valmy is right. At least in Illinois, it's nearly impossible to have your child "committed" to a home unless they've hurt someone or otherwise broke the law.
A friend of mine was just telling us this morning about his friend's son who is in a rehabilitation home up in Chicago and has been for the last six months or so. The boy, now 16 years old, has threatened to kill his mother multiple times, has drawn a knife on her, and has beat her up. They are releasing him due to budgetary concerns. Because he's a minor, she's required to take him back in. (The dad is nowhere to be found.) If he ends up on the street because she refused him, she would be arrested for child endangerment. If he runs away, she can let it go after she reports it, but if she shuts him out, it's a felony.
That's not quite correct, in any state in the country you can call the equivalent of child protective services and proclaim yourself an unfit parent and put the kid in the foster system. You may not be able to get the kid into a treatment program (psychiatric or otherwise) that they need, but you can always legally abandon a child.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 10:15:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 10:12:28 AM
I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about D's throwaway (and admittedly crappy) lines. :huh:
How am I getting worked up? I just thought I was making a simple post correcting him.
You're being Assburgerish about it. RED FLAG RED FLAG
Jesus fuck, I should've finished my morning cup of coffee before posting. Misread one word, and all of Languish's amateur psychologists will psychoanalyze you to death.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 10:15:26 AM
How am I getting worked up? I just thought I was making a simple post correcting him.
CALM DOWN GODDAMMIT. :(
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 10:18:57 AM
Jesus fuck, I should've finished my morning cup of coffee before posting. Misread one word, and all of Languish's amateur psychologists will psychoanalyze you to death.
:D
In Virginia it's called a "voluntary surrender for adoption", which is permanent, and can be done for essentially any reason. You can also put a child temporarily in foster care here, but you have to demonstrate there is some temporary family crisis that justifies it. But if you are willing to permanently cease parental rights there is no such requirement.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2012, 10:18:37 AM
You're being Assburgerish about it. RED FLAG RED FLAG
:hmm: :o I think I'm going to regret snapping at Valmy now. :unsure:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 10:19:52 AM
In Virginia it's called a "voluntary surrender for adoption", which is permanent, and can be done for essentially any reason. You can also put a child temporarily in foster care here, but you have to demonstrate there is some temporary family crisis that justifies it. But if you are willing to permanently cease parental rights there is no such requirement.
I'll let my friend know. I'm not sure the mom wants to lose her son completely; she just wants to get him help.
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 10:17:30 AM
Because it was a throw-away and we're still talking about it. -_-
Because you started talking to me about it :P
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 17, 2012, 10:17:30 AM
Because it was a throw-away and we're still talking about it. -_-
Because you started talking to me about it :P
I don't care who started it! I'm ending it! :ultra:
Garbon, go to your room. Valmy, out in the backyard. You can both come back to the kitchen once you've figured out how to place nicely together again. Now scoot!
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 10:18:57 AM
Jesus fuck, I should've finished my morning cup of coffee before posting. Misread one word, and all of Languish's amateur psychologists will psychoanalyze you to death.
Hah! I knew he had simply misread the word! :yeah:
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2012, 10:29:23 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2012, 10:18:57 AM
Jesus fuck, I should've finished my morning cup of coffee before posting. Misread one word, and all of Languish's amateur psychologists will psychoanalyze you to death.
Hah! I knew he had simply misread the word! :yeah:
:ultra: :ultra: :ultra:
BACKYARD!!
Quote from: merithyn on December 17, 2012, 10:26:02 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 17, 2012, 10:19:52 AM
In Virginia it's called a "voluntary surrender for adoption", which is permanent, and can be done for essentially any reason. You can also put a child temporarily in foster care here, but you have to demonstrate there is some temporary family crisis that justifies it. But if you are willing to permanently cease parental rights there is no such requirement.
I'll let my friend know. I'm not sure the mom wants to lose her son completely; she just wants to get him help.
Well right...most people don't. Some States are going to have better capacity for child treatment than others, here in VA I have known of several people who turned their kids over because the kid was not well. One family that I may have mentioned earlier in this thread had a MR/DD child who never actually acted on it, but was making inappropriate sexual advances and comments towards girls. (His intelligence was diminished but his sex drive was that of a normal teenager.) They were able to have him in a group home for 3-4 years during his teenage years, then took him back as an adult, then put him in a group home permanently later on due to other issues.
Obviously, if there is no available beds, you can't avail yourself of that option. But I wanted to make it clear there is not actually a scenario where you are forced to keep a child you don't want, who might even be dangerous, just because there is no available treatment or the State won't take him for treatment.
Most States try to steer you in other directions, in Virginia there is mandatory counseling and they usually want to try temporary foster care (I believe you actually have to pay child support during temporary foster care) before they'll do the full legal surrender. But a parent intent on surrendering their child will eventually get to the point where they can file that form and go before a judge and then it's permanent.
Thinking about it, I don't know how that community is going to tolerate keeping that school, at least in its present form. They're going to have to raze it, or at least shut the one side of it down permanently, or demolish the building the classrooms were in.
Why not? Isn't Columbine High School still in use? Don't let the bad guys win, man.
Quote from: Caliga on December 17, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
Why not? Isn't Columbine High School still in use? Don't let the bad guys win, man.
Yes, but they razed the library where almost all the murders happened, and converted it into a memorial atrium and rebuilt the library as a separate building on campus.
The Amish bulldozed their school from the 2008 shooting as well.
The bulldozer was wooden and pulled by horses.
Quote from: Caliga on December 17, 2012, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2012, 12:49:50 PM
The Amish bulldozed
:hmm:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dutchcrafters.com%2Fproduct_images%2Fpid_4869-Amish-Wooden-Toy---Bulldozer-10.jpg&hash=03802c701609be890763f49e8781545145f4c352)
Lanza's mother received alimony of $240,000 a year, scheduled to grow to $300,000 a year by 2015, so they at least probably led a materially comfortable life... (with money available for medical treatment)
But despite knowing that her son had mental problems, she still bought guns and had him trained in the use of firearms. :wacko:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324677204578185943777730944.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324677204578185943777730944.html)
Quote from: Phillip V on December 18, 2012, 03:11:30 AM
But despite knowing that her son had mental problems, she still bought guns and had him trained in the use of firearms. :wacko:
There are mental problems, and there are mental problems that manifest themselves with violence. From all the accounts I've read, from family members to childhood classmates, he never had a single outburst or any other manifestation.
And going to the range occasionally isn't what I would call "trained".
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2012, 07:13:00 AM
There are mental problems, and there are mental problems that manifest themselves with violence. From all the accounts I've read, from family members to childhood classmates, he never had a single outburst or any other manifestation.
And going to the range occasionally isn't what I would call "trained".
Yeah. It really seems as if this attack came completely out of nowhere. No hints to anyone, except maybe his mother, which means we'll never know.
I love those comments in that Wall Street Journal article. "Ship the bodies to a medical school for dissection, its a fitting place for an animal and its mother." Classy.
Quote from: merithyn on December 18, 2012, 07:14:39 AM
Yeah. It really seems as if this attack came completely out of nowhere. No hints to anyone, except maybe his mother, which means we'll never know.
Well, for whatever reason, he certainly had an issue with her in the end. Shot her in the face four times. That's an exclamation point.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2012, 07:13:00 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on December 18, 2012, 03:11:30 AM
But despite knowing that her son had mental problems, she still bought guns and had him trained in the use of firearms. :wacko:
There are mental problems, and there are mental problems that manifest themselves with violence. From all the accounts I've read, from family members to childhood classmates, he never had a single outburst or any other manifestation.
And going to the range occasionally isn't what I would call "trained".
There are precursors to violent manifestations. I don't see how keeping weapons around any problem person is safe even with no violent history, especially a young boy/man.
Looking beyond clinical situations, for example, I would keep weapons or drugs or high-risk situations away from someone who is going through a bad breakup/divorce, recent job/money loss, loss of a loved one, etc.
As for Adam's medical/mental/education history, that has yet to be released.
Just an initial lesson and firing of a firearm is enough to make someone far more lethal than a noob that just randomly found a gun and never fire one. I was dumbfounded when I first picked up a rifle and gun and shocked at the physical force of firing them. But then shortly thereafter being shown how to disable the safeties and load the weapons put me light years ahead of where I was before.
The amount of rounds he shot off, his breaking into the school through gunfire, and his quick mowing down of the principal+worker that charged at him seem to indicate he was trained to the point of lethal confidence and proficiency.
Quote from: Phillip V on December 18, 2012, 07:50:04 AM
The amount of rounds he shot off, his breaking into the school through gunfire, and his quick mowing down of the principal+worker that charged at him seem to indicate he was trained to the point of lethal confidence and proficiency.
It also seemed to indicate that he was nuttier than squirrel shit.
I blame the kid's mom. She sounds like one of these helicopter parents who thinks she knows better than everyone else what's best for her son. Also, it sounds like they just sat around at home bored all day thinking crazy thoughts. It's not good for crazy people to be bored.
Should've had a Japanese tea set. Squee.
Hmm I wonder who I might have been thinking of when I made my post. :ph34r:
I don't think Raz is that bored.
:yawn:
I HAVEN'T HAD BLUEBERRIES IN A LONG TIME! :mad:
Quote from: DGuller on December 18, 2012, 09:29:14 AM
I HAVEN'T HAD BLUEBERRIES IN A LONG TIME! :mad:
And with that overreaction, blueberries shall be forever linked to you.
Smooth move ex lax.
...he says, as he writes HELTER SKELTER in blueberry juice on the walls.
Next morning, the blueberry muffins are raped by a Slavic man in a track suit at Tim Horton's.
QuoteInvestigators digging through the old records were stunned to find that weekly the suspect had delivered 4 crates of blueberries to his house. Speaking off the record, a source said 'With that news, I can only imagine the horror that this led to.' Police have begun raiding wholesale fruit dealers in an effort to stop these events from happening again.
Some day we will not be laughing.
I'm not laughing this particular day. :mad:
How would Languish respond if one of our own participated in one of these shootings? Close down? Do our best to try and avoid any publicity coming to the site?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 18, 2012, 09:55:57 AM
How would Languish respond if one of our own participated in one of these shootings? Close down? Do our best to try and avoid any publicity coming to the site?
Languish already has an automatic protection built in for such an occasion. It crashes when the number of visitors exceeds 20.
I can only hope that Raz or more likely ussdefiant keep us off the radar.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 18, 2012, 09:55:57 AM
How would Languish respond if one of our own participated in one of these shootings? Close down? Do our best to try and avoid any publicity coming to the site?
If a Languishite did such a deed, we would all be fucked. :D We'd have cops and reporters combing through every bad joke made about CdM's sexual habits over the last decade, and the results would not be pretty. :P
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on December 18, 2012, 10:00:11 AM
I can only hope that Raz or more likely ussdefiant keep us off the radar.
Personally, I'm voting for Lettow. ;)
Quote from: DGuller on December 18, 2012, 09:58:08 AM
It crashes when the number of visitors exceeds 20.
:lol:
Meanwhile my sisters share on Facebook images/quotes against gun control and calling the genocide on unborn infants worse than what guns do. :bleeding:
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2012, 10:22:46 AM
Meanwhile my sisters share on Facebook images/quotes against gun control and calling the genocide on unborn infants worse than what guns do. :bleeding:
I, too, am against using guns for abortions.
It wouldn't happen if we armed the fetuses. :mad:
Abortions for some, miniature Glocks for others (such as fetuses).
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2012, 10:22:46 AM
Meanwhile my sisters share on Facebook images/quotes against gun control and calling the genocide on unborn infants worse than what guns do. :bleeding:
My father in law is doing the same :bleeding:
Quote from: DGuller on December 18, 2012, 09:58:08 AM
Languish already has an automatic protection built in for such an occasion. It crashes when the number of visitors exceeds 20.
The server has been up for 471 consecutive days. :rolleyes:
And it takes about that long for a page to load, too. :P
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2012, 10:22:46 AM
Meanwhile my sisters share on Facebook images/quotes against gun control and calling the genocide on unborn infants worse than what guns do. :bleeding:
:yuk:
As per usual, I am troubled by the general idiocy displayed by the hyper-partisans of both sides.
No wonder we can't get anything done.
Pfft, bashing Languish load times has always been a bipartisan affair.
Quote from: Caliga on December 18, 2012, 10:31:26 AM
Abortions for some, miniature Glocks for others (such as fetuses).
Easy-insert miniature Glocks. :P
Yes we can walk/ reach across the aisle on that issue.
Quote from: garbon on December 18, 2012, 01:36:44 PM
Yes we can walk/ reach across the aisle on that issue.
I'd have thought minature Glocks for fetuses would have been more controversial. :hmm:
I make no apologies for not quoting when on a tablet. :P
Quote from: garbon on December 18, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
I make no apologies for not quoting when on a tablet. :P
Ditto. Trying to edit that shit down is a pain in the ass. Though in some circumstances I just decide not to post.
Looks like WBC are not the only ones:
QuoteRepublican Mike Huckabee: The Newtown shootings were the fault of gay people
by Joseph Patrick McCormick
18 December 2012, 2:38pm
Fox News presenter and former 2008 Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, has made several comments about the Newtown, Connecticut, school shootings, seemingly blaming gay people for the massacre.
Mike Huckabee, the ex-governor of Arkansas, seemed to be blaming last week's shootings on gay people through his recently voiced opinions, when he talked about a rejection of "natural law", and "natural family of a father and mother", as the reasons for the killings.
He also went on to cite smartphones, and "abortion pills", as well as the "teaching" that "god was not involved in our origins" as the reasons for the shootings taking place.
Writing on his website, Mr Huckabee said: "We dismiss the notion of natural law and the notion that there are moral absolutes and seemed amazed when some kids make it their own morality to kill innocent children.
"We diminish and even hold in contempt the natural family of a father and mother creating and then responsibly raising the next generation and then express dismay that kids feel no real connection to their families or even the concept of a family."
On Friday, not long after the shooting took place, Mr Huckabee had spoken on Fox News, and asked:
"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"
"Maybe we ought to let [God] in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end," he continued.
At the weekend, Mr Huckabee also blamed "the predictable left" and its "vile and vicious reaction" to his comments. He continued:
"It's the fact that people sue a city so we aren't confronted with a manger scene or Christmas carol ... Churches and Christian-owned businesses are told to surrender their values under the edict of government orders to provide tax-funded abortion pills."
On his blog, he said: "our kids would rather have ear buds dangling from their ears, fingers attaching to a smartphone, and face attached to a computer screen" and "we teach that God was not involved in our origins, that our very lives are biological happenstances."
Writing for Salon.com, Mary Elizabeth Williams, noted that Mr Huckabee had made similar sentiments about the shooting in an Aurora cinema last year. He said:
"We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem. And since we've ordered God out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn't act so surprised ... when all hell breaks loose."
This statement was made at a similar time that he declared a national 'Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day', which aimed to celebrate the fast-food chain's stance against marriage equality.
On Saturday, The Westboro Baptist Church, the home of the 'God Hates Fags Church' released a sickening video to explain how that 'God Sent the Shooter' to kill children at the Newtown school.
When one constructs a parallel reality, is stands to reason (sic) to smash everything into that reality.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
I don't think Raz is that bored.
Nah, you people keep me occupied.
I'm not going to defend Huck, but the article twists his words into something he didn't actually say.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2012, 02:19:30 PM
I'm not going to defend Huck, but the article twists his words into something he didn't actually say.
Ok, you have started defending him so go all the way. What do you think he said?
I think he was talking about non-two parent families.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 18, 2012, 02:25:50 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2012, 02:19:30 PM
I'm not going to defend Huck, but the article twists his words into something he didn't actually say.
Ok, you have started defending him so go all the way. What do you think he said?
Yeah I won't defend him except for the part where I will...
Quote from: garbon on December 18, 2012, 02:28:40 PM
Yeah I won't defend him except for the part where I will...
I don't get this attitude that pointing out a misunderstanding or mischaracterization is somehow taking sides.
If someone were to claim that Huckabee says he's in favor of gassing all homos, and I point out he did in fact not say that, am I "defending Huckabee?"
Huckabee is reprehensible enough that I don't see the distinction mattering in this case.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2012, 02:28:09 PM
I think he was talking about non-two parent families.
Sounds pretty stupid to say society holds two parent families in contempt though.
Quote"We diminish and even hold in contempt the natural family of a father and mother creating and then responsibly raising the next generation and then express dismay that kids feel no real connection to their families or even the concept of a family."
I am sure somebody does this. Radical crazy lefties of certain flavors do, but 'we' do this as a society?
Quote from: garbon on December 18, 2012, 02:35:08 PM
Huckabee is reprehensible enough that I don't see the distinction mattering in this case.
Very Huffington Post/Michael Moorish of you.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2012, 02:42:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 18, 2012, 02:35:08 PM
Huckabee is reprehensible enough that I don't see the distinction mattering in this case.
Very Huffington Post/Michael Moorish of you.
If having an issue with Huck's statement is something only Huff Post or Michael Moore would do they are clearly more reasonable than I thought.
Quote from: Valmy on December 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
If having an issue with Huck's statement is something only Huff Post or Michael Moore would do they are clearly more reasonable than I thought.
Your premise is flawed.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2012, 02:19:30 PM
I'm not going to defend Huck, but the article twists his words into something he didn't actually say.
I wouldn't sweat it too much. Huck shot his mouth off a bit, true, but the article is from a gay blog, and thus not reputable. It might as well have been written in one of Ron Paul's goldbug newsletters.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 18, 2012, 02:25:50 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2012, 02:19:30 PM
I'm not going to defend Huck, but the article twists his words into something he didn't actually say.
Ok, you have started defending him so go all the way. What do you think he said?
:rolleyes:
I think he's just saying the absence of religious morality leaves a vacuum in which massacres like this are more likely to happen. I don't happen to agree with that (as much as I'm sure you'd love me to) but I don't think that is the same as blaming gay people for Sandy Hook. The author of Marti's mystery article apparently thinks everything's always about him and should probably get over himself.
I blame Perez Hilton.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2012, 02:28:09 PM
I think he was talking about non-two parent families.
"Traditional families" spiel has always been the code word for hating homos.
Just in: shooting was Obama plot.
QuoteWhere was Adam Lanza in the days leading to the massacre? Was he handled by someone? Was he drugged? Was he subjected to hypnosis?
The word assassin comes from the Arabic word "Hashish", name for a drug, I believe correct translation is opium. For thousands of years, since ancient times assassins were drugged.
Was Adam Lanza drugged and hypnotised by his handlers to make him into a killing machine as an excuse as the regime is itching to take all means of self defense from the populace before the economic collapse?
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=367385
Really, is there no depth to which Obama will not sink? :hmm:
Sorry, I was wrong - apparently it was Israelis, not Obama. My bad.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/18/irans-state-run-news-network-blames-israeli-death-squads-for-sandy-hook-shooting/
Why can't it be both?
Quote from: PDH on December 19, 2012, 08:28:39 AM
Why can't it be both?
Because Obama and the Israelis aren't friends like that anymore. Weren't you paying attention during the election?
Oh, Orly. I missed her batshit insanity.
I wonder what Sorcha Fal has to say on this.
Quote from: PDH on December 19, 2012, 08:56:10 AM
I wonder what Sorcha Fal has to say on this.
A report from some Russian ministry reports a *rolls dice* Obama coup.
Link (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive-sandy-hook/1779475/)
Now it is being reported Nancy Lanza was planning to have Adam either committed to a psychiatric facility or at the least given legal guardianship over him so she could move him to Washington State where there was a special school for his brand of nutbag.
QuoteReports: Lanza may have been angry about mother's plans
John Bacon, USA TODAY10:30a.m. EST December 19, 2012CommentsShare
Local resident says Adam Lanza, who killed 26 people at a Newtown school, may have believed his mother loved the school more than him.
(Photo: Jason DeCrow, AP)
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Pastor's son talks of possible clash between Lanza and his mother
Lanza killed 20 students and 6 adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School
Family acquaintance says mother was planning to commit Lanza to a psychiatric facility
An acquaintance of the family of Connecticut mass murderer Adam Lanza says he may have snapped because his mother was planning to commit him to a psychiatric facility, foxnews.com reports.
And The Washington Post quotes a Lanza family friend as saying Lanza's mother was considering moving to Washington state so Adam could attend a special school there.
"He was her whole life," Mark Tambascio, a restaurant proprietor and close family friend, told the Post.
FULL COVERAGE: Sandy Hook school shooting
FULL COVERAGE: The victims
Foxnews.com reports that Joshua Flashman, a Marine who grew up near the Newtown school, said he believes Adam Lanza targeted Sandy Hook Elementary after killing his mother early Friday because he believed she loved the school "more than she loved him."
Flashman, 25, is the son of a pastor at a church where many of the families of the victims worship.
"From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told the website. "Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off."
Nancy Lanza, 52, would have needed court approval to have an adult committed to a psychiatric facility.
Foxnews says authorities trying to determine a motive for Friday's gruesome explosion of violence that left 28 people dead, including Lanza and his mother, are looking at the possibility that Lanza was angry about his mother's plans for his treatment.
Lanza, 20, attended Sandy Hook in his youth, and Flashman told foxnews.com that his mother had volunteered there for several years. Two law enforcement sources told the website they believed Nancy Lanza had been volunteering with kindergartners at the school. Most of Lanza's victims were first-graders sources told foxnews that they believe Nancy Lanza may have worked with last year.
Multiple sources have said that Adam Lanza was very bright but suffered from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, and unspecified mental and emotional problems.
Why in the name of fuck do you not have you guns under super-hardcore lockdown if you've got a son you are convinced is crazy enough to be committed living in your house? Why do you tell him / let him know you're trying to have him committed?
Because you need the guns ready for when the government comes to take them.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 10:56:57 AM
Why in the name of fuck do you not have you guns under super-hardcore lockdown if you've got a son you are convinced is crazy enough to be committed living in your house?
Who the hell knows-- seems like a no-brainer. It's something that would be on my mind constantly.
QuoteWhy do you tell him / let him know you're trying to have him committed?
I'm not familiar with the procedure for having that done, but I'm guessing it's hard to keep under wraps.
Quote from: PDH on December 19, 2012, 08:28:39 AM
Why can't it be both?
Well Orly Taitz is an Israeli.
ORLY?
Totter Taitz. :drool:
Quote from: derspiess on December 19, 2012, 11:43:16 AM
ORLY?
I kept reading that as O RLY every single time. :blush:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 10:56:57 AM
Link (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive-sandy-hook/1779475/)
Now it is being reported Nancy Lanza was planning to have Adam either committed to a psychiatric facility or at the least given legal guardianship over him so she could move him to Washington State where there was a special school for his brand of nutbag.
QuoteReports: Lanza may have been angry about mother's plans
John Bacon, USA TODAY10:30a.m. EST December 19, 2012CommentsShare
Local resident says Adam Lanza, who killed 26 people at a Newtown school, may have believed his mother loved the school more than him.
(Photo: Jason DeCrow, AP)
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Pastor's son talks of possible clash between Lanza and his mother
Lanza killed 20 students and 6 adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School
Family acquaintance says mother was planning to commit Lanza to a psychiatric facility
An acquaintance of the family of Connecticut mass murderer Adam Lanza says he may have snapped because his mother was planning to commit him to a psychiatric facility, foxnews.com reports.
And The Washington Post quotes a Lanza family friend as saying Lanza's mother was considering moving to Washington state so Adam could attend a special school there.
"He was her whole life," Mark Tambascio, a restaurant proprietor and close family friend, told the Post.
FULL COVERAGE: Sandy Hook school shooting
FULL COVERAGE: The victims
Foxnews.com reports that Joshua Flashman, a Marine who grew up near the Newtown school, said he believes Adam Lanza targeted Sandy Hook Elementary after killing his mother early Friday because he believed she loved the school "more than she loved him."
Flashman, 25, is the son of a pastor at a church where many of the families of the victims worship.
"From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told the website. "Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off."
Nancy Lanza, 52, would have needed court approval to have an adult committed to a psychiatric facility.
Foxnews says authorities trying to determine a motive for Friday's gruesome explosion of violence that left 28 people dead, including Lanza and his mother, are looking at the possibility that Lanza was angry about his mother's plans for his treatment.
Lanza, 20, attended Sandy Hook in his youth, and Flashman told foxnews.com that his mother had volunteered there for several years. Two law enforcement sources told the website they believed Nancy Lanza had been volunteering with kindergartners at the school. Most of Lanza's victims were first-graders sources told foxnews that they believe Nancy Lanza may have worked with last year.
Multiple sources have said that Adam Lanza was very bright but suffered from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, and unspecified mental and emotional problems.
Why in the name of fuck do you not have you guns under super-hardcore lockdown if you've got a son you are convinced is crazy enough to be committed living in your house? Why do you tell him / let him know you're trying to have him committed?
Well a lot of people aren't capable of advanced thinking ie putting two and two together, as you just did. These are the types of people who shouldn't have guns, as you said in another post.
Quote from: mongers on December 19, 2012, 01:12:25 PM
Well a lot of people aren't capable of advanced thinking ie putting two and two together, as you just did. These are the types of people who shouldn't have guns, as you said in another post.
And this person was responsible for teaching children on a daily basis.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 19, 2012, 01:15:18 PM
And this person was responsible for teaching children on a daily basis.
Only her own. She home-schooled her son, but otherwise was not a teacher. She did, however, volunteer at Sandy Hook, it's been reported.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 19, 2012, 01:15:18 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 19, 2012, 01:12:25 PM
Well a lot of people aren't capable of advanced thinking ie putting two and two together, as you just did. These are the types of people who shouldn't have guns, as you said in another post.
And this person was responsible for teaching children on a daily basis.
I'm sometimes amazed at how much in the now some people live; being swayed this way or that by advertising, prevailing modes and panics/mass hysterias.
Looking at a problem, thinking of different solutions, what each of those might entail and what are the consequences seems to be alien to some people.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 10:56:57 AM
Link (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive-sandy-hook/1779475/)
Now it is being reported Nancy Lanza was planning to have Adam either committed to a psychiatric facility or at the least given legal guardianship over him so she could move him to Washington State where there was a special school for his brand of nutbag.
Oh fucking great.
Moment of silence for the one week after the shooting. :(
Quote from: 11B4V on December 19, 2012, 02:34:46 PM
Oh fucking great.
Well, neither of them are coming now.
The NRA's doubling down (unsurprisingly):
QuoteNational Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre defiantly blamed violent video games and movies, the media, gun-free zones in schools and other factors during the organization's first public statement following the elementary school shooting in Newtown, Conn. last week.
LaPierre, who was interrupted by Code Pink protesters twice during a statement (during which he refused to answer questions), said that the students in Newtown might have been better protected had officials at Sandy Hook Elementary been armed. He said that putting a police officer in every single school in America might make schools safer.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," he said, asking Congress to immediately appropriate the money to put a police officer in every single school in the country.
The NRA executive's statement was nothing short of defiant in the face of mounting discussion of the need for tighter restrictions on guns — including renewing a ban on assault weapons — in the wake of last week's shooting.
Protesters twice interrupted LaPierre, who will appear this Sunday exclusively on NBC's "Meet the Press," holding signs reading "NRA KILLING OUR KIDS," and screaming that the gun rights group has "blood on its hands."
All protesters are scum. Even when they're right, they're awful.
At any rate, people should protest against Subway. When the NFL had a moment of silence for the school shooting before their games, the network cut away to a solid block of RG3 Subway commercials. The general effect was 'this school shooting was brought to you by Subway'. Let's attack Subway.
Quote from: Kleves on December 21, 2012, 11:35:50 AM
The NRA's doubling down (unsurprisingly):
LoL, guns dont kill people, people who play video games kill people.
While I'm relieved the NRA didn't pull the rug out from under its members, a la Joe Manchin with his constituents, it was a poor decision to target video games & movies. This thing could turn into a circular firing squad between movies/games, gun rights advocates, and the mental health industry.
I think the bigger issue is their proposal to spend billions of dollars to hire cops to put in every school.
Quote from: Faeelin on December 21, 2012, 12:47:34 PM
I think the bigger issue is their proposal to spend billions of dollars to hire cops to put in every school.
From Twitter, no idea on who this guy is or the truth behind it.
Quote@GuyEndoreKaiser: Fort Hood, Virginia Tech, and Columbine all had two things in common. One of them was armed guards.
A lot of schools already have them. The high school I went to has a full-time cop now, and it's not even close to being a 'violent' school.
Violence at my high school was unheard of. Why does America suck so hard?
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 12:45:20 PM
While I'm relieved the NRA didn't pull the rug out from under its members, a la Joe Manchin with his constituents, it was a poor decision to target video games & movies. This thing could turn into a circular firing squad between movies/games, gun rights advocates, and the mental health industry.
Relieved? You honestly thought the NRA was going to be all 'yeah forget this 2nd Amendment stuff lets have some gun control we have blood on our hands'?
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Relieved? You honestly thought the NRA was going to be all 'yeah forget this 2nd Amendment stuff lets have some gun control we have blood on our hands'?
I was a little worried about it.
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 12:45:20 PM
While I'm relieved the NRA didn't pull the rug out from under its members, a la Joe Manchin with his constituents, it was a poor decision to target video games & movies. This thing could turn into a circular firing squad between movies/games, gun rights advocates, and the mental health industry.
Relieved? You honestly thought the NRA was going to be all 'yeah forget this 2nd Amendment stuff lets have some gun control we have blood on our hands'?
Do you honestly expect conservatives to not be afraid of something, anything, no matter how unfounded the fear is?
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Relieved? You honestly thought the NRA was going to be all 'yeah forget this 2nd Amendment stuff lets have some gun control we have blood on our hands'?
I was a little worried about it.
:lol: With Wayne LaPierre in charge? That's a big ol' hunka burnin' LULZ right there.
Meanwhile, Mayor Bloomberg wins the price for whopper of the day:
Quote"I don't think there's anybody that's defended the Second Amendment as much as I have...
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 01:19:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Relieved? You honestly thought the NRA was going to be all 'yeah forget this 2nd Amendment stuff lets have some gun control we have blood on our hands'?
I was a little worried about it.
:lol: With Wayne LaPierre in charge? That's a big ol' hunka burnin' LULZ right there.
He's got cool glasses.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 12:45:20 PM
While I'm relieved the NRA didn't pull the rug out from under its members, a la Joe Manchin with his constituents, it was a poor decision to target video games & movies. This thing could turn into a circular firing squad between movies/games, gun rights advocates, and the mental health industry.
I follow West Virginia politics a little bit (while my cabin is in VA the property actually crosses the line), and the one defining truth about that State is they do not seem to hold their elected officials very accountable. Manchin in particular, from what I can tell he is just a political grandstanding glad-hander who barely did anything as Governor but was never really taken to task for it. I guess he knows no one in his State will dare vote him out of office no matter what he does.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Relieved? You honestly thought the NRA was going to be all 'yeah forget this 2nd Amendment stuff lets have some gun control we have blood on our hands'?
I was a little worried about it.
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
It's a gun lobbying group. Why would it care about anything else?
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
You know, it would be really cool if those individuals that want such a strict Founding Fathers interpretation of the 2nd Amendment get precisely that: and the courts decide that the 2nd Amendment should apply to those individual rights to possess black powder weaponry.
After all, if that's what the Framers had in mind, then that's what the Amendment should be restricted to: musket technology. That should slow down the next school shooting's rate of fire. Brown Bess instead of Bushmaster.
Quote from: Faeelin on December 21, 2012, 01:26:43 PM
It's a gun lobbying group. Why would it care about anything else?
Because the primary arrow in their quiver is the Second Amendment.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 21, 2012, 01:22:29 PM
I follow West Virginia politics a little bit (while my cabin is in VA the property actually crosses the line), and the one defining truth about that State is they do not seem to hold their elected officials very accountable. Manchin in particular, from what I can tell he is just a political grandstanding glad-hander who barely did anything as Governor but was never really taken to task for it. I guess he knows no one in his State will dare vote him out of office no matter what he does.
Despite a few bumps in the road, I've been a big supporter of his. He's a Conservative Democrat and I agree with him on way more than I disagree. One of my best friends was his communications director, so I got to talk to him a few times. Always came across as a very genuine, likable guy.
He reminds me of Bill Clinton in his days as governor, without all the skirt chasing of course. He idolizes Clinton and relishes whatever attention he gets from the Clinton wing of the Dem party. If conditions are right I could see him making a primary run in 2016.
You're dead-on about WV constituents not holding their elected officials accountable for representing their own views. Incumbency, labor union support, and pork apparently go a long, long way with WV voters.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
You know, it would be really cool if those individuals that want such a strict Founding Fathers interpretation of the 2nd Amendment get precisely that: and the courts decide that the 2nd Amendment should apply to those individual rights to possess black powder weaponry.
After all, if that's what the Framers had in mind, then that's what the Amendment should be restricted to: musket technology. That should slow down the next school shooting's rate of fire. Brown Bess instead of Bushmaster.
Wow, so insightful. That's never been said before :mellow:
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:38:14 PM
You're dead-on about WV constituents not holding their elected officials accountable for representing their own views. Incumbency, labor union support, and pork apparently go a long, long way with WV voters.
Besides the labor union stuff that sounds like Texas voters.
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:38:14 PM
You're dead-on about WV constituents not holding their elected officials accountable for representing their own views. Incumbency, labor union support, and pork apparently go a long, long way with WV voters.
Besides the labor union stuff that sounds like Texas voters.
Right, but don't their elected officials tend to represent the majority's political views more often than not? I guess it is actually changing in that direction for WV.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:39:19 PM
Wow, so insightful. That's never been said before :mellow:
Like we're going to get anywhere discussing gun control to begin with. :P
It's all one big circle jerk until the next mass shooting reduces Sandy Hook to the tag "...the largest school shooting in the US since the Sandy Hook massacre" in the byline.
At least I'll admit to recycling the same bullshit, and not acting like this is some sort of novel opportunity to change things. 20 little skulls ventilated with multiple .223 rounds sure as hell ain't going to do it.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:50:09 PM
Right, but don't their elected officials tend to represent the majority's political views more often than not? I guess it is actually changing in that direction for WV.
:hmm: Good question. It sure seems like people like Rick Perry can get away with doing things like being both pro and anti illegal immigration at the same time and nobody seems to care. I also remember when Kay Bailey ran for governor suddenly all this furious rage came out against all she had done in the Senate...for somebody who was never seriously challenged once.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:39:19 PM
Wow, so insightful. That's never been said before :mellow:
Like we're going to get anywhere discussing gun control to begin with. :P
It's all one big circle jerk until the next mass shooting reduces Sandy Hook to the tag "...the largest school shooting in the US since the Sandy Hook massacre" in the byline.
At least I'll admit to recycling the same bullshit, and not acting like this is some sort of novel opportunity to change things. 20 little skulls ventilated with multiple .223 rounds sure as hell ain't going to do it.
There is a great thread on wargamer.com. I think the swede you met is posting in it.
Quote from: Kleves on December 21, 2012, 11:35:50 AM
The NRA's doubling down (unsurprisingly):
Their original STFU strategy was working a lot better.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 12:45:20 PM
circular firing squad between movies/games, gun rights advocates, and the mental health industry.
The NRA doesn't have anything to worry about in that scenario. :D
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
You know, it would be really cool if those individuals that want such a strict Founding Fathers interpretation of the 2nd Amendment get precisely that: and the courts decide that the 2nd Amendment should apply to those individual rights to possess black powder weaponry.
After all, if that's what the Framers had in mind, then that's what the Amendment should be restricted to: musket technology. That should slow down the next school shooting's rate of fire. Brown Bess instead of Bushmaster.
Wow, so insightful. That's never been said before :mellow:
Typical argument from the Left™
Quote from: Kleves on December 21, 2012, 11:35:50 AM
The NRA's doubling down (unsurprisingly):
QuoteNational Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre defiantly blamed violent
.....
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," he said, asking Congress to immediately appropriate the money to put a police officer in every single school in the country.
.....
I wonder if he's considered what happens when a good guy chooses to do bad things ?
Or is the white hat a token of a legally binding contract ? :hmm:
Quote from: 11B4V on December 21, 2012, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
You know, it would be really cool if those individuals that want such a strict Founding Fathers interpretation of the 2nd Amendment get precisely that: and the courts decide that the 2nd Amendment should apply to those individual rights to possess black powder weaponry.
After all, if that's what the Framers had in mind, then that's what the Amendment should be restricted to: musket technology. That should slow down the next school shooting's rate of fire. Brown Bess instead of Bushmaster.
Wow, so insightful. That's never been said before :mellow:
Typical argument from the Left™
It would certainly make black bear season more sporting, now wouldn't it, Mr. Macrame Needles?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on December 21, 2012, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 21, 2012, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Yeah don't worry. It seems the second amendment types want the government to attack the first amendment instead of themselves. So much for the NRA being about liberty.
You know, it would be really cool if those individuals that want such a strict Founding Fathers interpretation of the 2nd Amendment get precisely that: and the courts decide that the 2nd Amendment should apply to those individual rights to possess black powder weaponry.
After all, if that's what the Framers had in mind, then that's what the Amendment should be restricted to: musket technology. That should slow down the next school shooting's rate of fire. Brown Bess instead of Bushmaster.
Wow, so insightful. That's never been said before :mellow:
Typical argument from the Left™
It would certainly make black bear season more sporting, now wouldn't it, Mr. Macrame Needles?
I dont hunt bears thank you very much :blurgh:. Certain animals I have no desire to hunt and get a pass unless for self defense. Why? "Cause I just think they're cool.
BV's no hunt list.
Bears
Big Cats
Elephants
Rhino
Hippo
K-9 species
American Buff
BV's would like to hunt list
Mbogo, affalo, nyati, Syncerus caffer, aka Black Death, or aka African Water Buffalo. :yes:
I'd hunt Tim. With a crossbow.
I'd borrow a mobility scooter from Wal Mart so I wouldn't have to run. My knees hurt.
Here's the transcript from the NRA guy:
QuoteWAYNE LAPIERRE, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, NRA: Good morning.
The National Rifle Association -- 4 million mothers, fathers, sons and daughters -- join the nation in horror, outrage, grief, and earnest prayer for the families of Newtown, Connecticut, who have suffered such an incomprehensible loss as a result of this unspeakable crime.
Out of respect for the families and until the facts are known, the NRA has refrained from comment.
While some have tried to exploit tragedy for political gain, we have remained respectably silent. Now, we must speak for the safety of our nation's children.
Because for all the noise and anger directed at us over the past week, no one, nobody has addressed the most important, pressing and immediate question we face: How do we protect our children right now, starting today, in a way that we know works?
The only way to answer that question is to face the truth. Politicians pass laws for gun free school zones, they issue press releases bragging about them. They post signs advertising them. And, in doing so, they tell every insane killer in America that schools are the safest place to inflict maximum mayhem with minimum risk.
How have our nation's priorities gotten so far out of order. Think about it. We care about our money, so we protect our banks with armed guards. American airports, office buildings, power plants, court houses, even sports stadiums are all protected by armed security.
We care about our president, so we protect him with armed Secret Service agents. Members of Congress work in offices surrounded by Capitol Police officers. Yet, when it comes to our most beloved, innocent, and vulnerable members of the American family, our children, we as a society leave them every day utterly defenseless, and the monsters and the predators of the world know it, and exploit it.
The truth is, that our society is populated by an unknown number of genuine monsters. People that are so deranged, so evil, so possessed by voices and driven by demons, that no sane person can every possibly comprehend them. They walk among us every single day, and does anybody really believe that the next Adam Lanza isn't planning his attack on a school, he's already identified at this very moment?
How many more copycats are waiting in the wings for their moment of fame from a national media machine that rewards them with wall-to-wall attention and a sense of identity that they crave, while provoking others to try to make their mark.
A dozen more killers, a hundred more? How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation's refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill? The fact is this: That wouldn't even begin to address the much larger, more lethal criminal class -- killers, robbers, rapists, gang members who have spread like cancer in every community across our nation.
Meanwhile, while that happens, federal gun prosecutions have decreased by 40 percent, to the lowest levels in a decade. So now, due to a declined willingness to prosecute dangerous criminals, violent crime is increasing again for the first time in 19 years. Add another hurricane, terrorist attack, or some other natural of manmade disaster, and you've got a recipe for a national nightmare of violence and victimization.
And here's another dirty little truth that the media try their best to conceal. There exists in this country, sadly, a callous, corrupt and corrupting shadow industry that sells and stows violence against its own people. Through vicious, violent video games with names like "Bullet Storm," "Grand Theft Auto," "Mortal Combat," and "Splatterhouse."
And here's one, it's called "Kindergarten Killers." It's been online for 10 years. How come my research staff can find it, and all of yours couldn't? Or didn't want anyone to know you had found it? Add another hurricane, add another natural disaster. I mean we have blood-soaked films out there, like "American Psycho," "Natural Born Killers." They're aired like propaganda loops on Splatterdays and every single day.
1,000 music videos, and you all know this, portray life as a joke and they play murder -- portray murder as a way of life. And then they all have the nerve to call it entertainment. But is that what it really is? Isn't fantasizing about killing people as a way to get your kicks really the filthiest form of pornography? In a race to the bottom, many conglomerates compete with one another to shock, violate, and offend every standard of civilized society, by bringing an even more toxic mix of reckless behavior, and criminal cruelty right into our homes. Every minute, every day, every hour of every single year.
A child growing up in America today witnesses 16,000 murders, and 200,000 acts of violence by the time he or she reaches the ripe old age of 18. And, throughout it all, too many in the national media, their corporate owners, and their stockholders act as silent enablers, if not complicit co-conspirators.
Rather than face their own moral failings, the media demonize gun owners.
Rather than face -- rather than face their own moral failings the media demonize lawful gun owners, amplify their cries for more laws, and fill the national media with misinformation and dishonest thinking that only delay meaningful action, and all but guarantee that the next atrocity is only a news cycle away.
The media calls semi-automatic fire arms, machine guns. They claim these civilian semi-automatic fire arms are used by the military. They tell us that the .223 is one of the most powerful rifle calibers, when all of these claims are factually untrue, they don't know what they're talking about.
Worse, they perpetuate the dangerous notion that one more gun ban or one more law imposed on peaceable, lawful people will protect us where 20,000 other laws have failed.
As brave and heroic and as self-sacrificing as those teachers were in those classrooms and as prompt and professional and well- trained as those police were when they responded, they were unable -- through no fault of their own, unable to stop it.
As parents we do everything we can to keep our children safe. It's now time for us to assume responsibility for our schools. The only way -- the only way to stop a monster from killing our kids is to be personally involved and invested in a plan of absolute protection.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
Would you rather have your 911 call bring a good guy with a gun from a mile away or from a minute away?
Now, I can imagine the headlines, the shocking headlines you'll print tomorrow. "More guns," you'll claim, "are the NRA's answer to everything." Your implication will be that guns are evil and have no place in society, much less in our schools.
But since when did "gun" automatically become a bad word? A gun in the hands of a Secret Service agent protecting our president isn't a bad word. A gun in the hands of a soldier protecting the United States of America isn't a bad word. And when you hear your glass breaking at three a.m. and you call 9/11, you won't be able to pray hard enough for a gun in the hands of a good guy to get there fast enough to protect you.
So, why is the idea of a gun good when it's used to protect the president of our country or our police, but bad when it's used to protect our children in our schools? They're our kids. They're our responsibility. And it's not just our duty to protect them, it's our right to protect them.
You know, five years ago after the Virginia Tech tragedy, when I said we should put armed security in every school, the media called me crazy. But what if -- what if when Adam Lanza started shooting his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School last Friday, he'd been confronted by qualified armed security? Will you at least admit it's possible that 26 little kids, that 26 innocent lives might have been spared that day? Is it so important to you (inaudible) would rather continue to risk the alternative? Is the press and the political class here in Washington D.C. so consumed by fear and hatred of the NRA and American gun owners, that you're willing to accept the world, where real resistance to evil monsters is alone, unarmed school principal left to surrender her life, her life, to shield those children in her care.
No one. No one, regardless of personal, political prejudice has the right to impose that sacrifice.
Ladies and gentlemen, there's no national one size fits all solution to protecting our children. But do know that this president zeroed out school emergency planning grants in last year's budget and scrapped Secure Our Schools policing grants in next year's budget.
With all the foreign aid the United States does, with all the money in the federal budget, can't we afford to put a police officer in every single school? Even if they did that, politicians have no business and no authority denying us the right, the ability, and the moral imperative to protect ourselves and our loved ones from harm.
Now, the National Rifle Association knows there are millions of qualified and active retired police, active, Reserve, and retired military, security professionals, certified firefighters, security professionals, rescue personnel, an extraordinary corps of patriotic, trained, qualified citizens to join with local school officials and police in devising a protection plan for every single school.
We could deploy them to protect our kids now. We can immediately make America's schools safer, relying on the brave men and women in America's police forces. The budgets -- and you all know this, everyone in the country knows this -- of our local police departments are strained, and the resources are severely limited, but their dedication and courage is second to none. And, they can be deployed right now.
I call on Congress today, to act immediately to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every single school in this nation. And, to do it now to make sure that blanket safety is in place when our kids return to school in January.
Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy debate over legislation, regulation, or anything else, as soon as our kids return to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single school in America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work and by that I mean armed security.
Right now today every school in the United States should plan meetings with parents, school administrators, teachers, local authorities and draw upon every resource that's out there and available to erect a cordon of protection around our kids right now.
Every school is gonna have a different solution based on its own unique situation. Every school in America needs to immediately identify, dedicate and deploy the resources necessary to put these security forces in place, though, right now.
And the National Rifle Association, as America's preeminent trainer of law enforcement and security personnel for the past 50 years -- we have 11,000 police training instructors in the NRA -- is ready, willing and uniquely qualified to help.
Our training programs are the most advanced in the world. That expertise must be brought to bear to protect our schools and our children now.
We did it through our nation's defense industries and military installations during World War II. We did it for very young kids with our Eddie Eagle child safety program that is throughout the country in schools right now, and we'll do it again today.
The NRA is gonna bring all its knowledge, all its dedication and all its resources to develop a model national schools shield emergency response program for every single school in America that wants it. From armed security to building design and access control, to information technology, to student and teacher training, this multifaceted program will be developed by the very best experts in the field. Former Congressman Asa Hutchinson will lead the effort as national director of the National Model School Shield Program, with a budget provided by the NRA of whatever scope the task requires. His experience as United States attorney, director of the Drug Enforcement Agency, and undersecretary of the Department of Homeland Security will give him the knowledge and expertise to hire the most knowledgeable and credentialed experts that are available in the United States of America to get this program up and running from the first day forward.
If we truly cherish our kids, more than our money, more than our celebrities, more than our sports stadiums, we must give them the greatest level of protection possible. And that security is only available with properly trained, armed good guys. Under Asa's leadership, our team of security experts will make this program available to the world for protecting our children in school. And we'll make the program available to every single school in America, free of charge. That's a plan of action that can, and will make a real positive, indisputable difference in the safety of our children, and it will start right now.
There's going to be a lot of time for talk, and debate later. This is a time this is a day for decisive action. We can't wait for the next unspeakable crime to happen before we act. We can't lose precious time debating legislation that won't work. We mustn't allow politics or personal prejudice to divide us. We must act now for the sake of every child in America.
I call on every parent. I call on every teacher. I call on every school administrator, every law enforcement officer in this country, to join with us and help create a national schools shield safety program to protect our children with the only positive line of defense that's tested and proven to work.
Exec summary: the only solution to any gun problem is guns. Nothing that is wrong with guns cannot be cured by what is right with guns.
True.
QuoteThe media calls semi-automatic fire arms, machine guns. They claim these civilian semi-automatic fire arms are used by the military. They tell us that the .223 is one of the most powerful rifle calibers, when all of these claims are factually untrue, they don't know what they're talking about.
:lol: Silly news people. 223/5.56mm is on the left.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/61833_4968191973802_1909010205_n.jpg)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/marine-guards-calif-school-18023054#.UNTvbKyZM4c
QuoteA former Marine applauded for voluntarily guarding a central California elementary school apparently misrepresented his service history, U.S. Marine Corps officials said Thursday.
Craig Pusley showed up for a second day of guard duty Thursday at Hughson Elementary School, this time in civilian clothes after wearing military fatigues the day before. He was gone by midmorning, after Unified School District Superintendent Brian Beck discovered discrepancies about Pusley's military service and asked him to leave.
He'll be coming back to shoot the place up.
Quote from: Neil on December 21, 2012, 06:27:51 PM
He'll be coming back to shoot the place up.
I cant disagree with you.
How much you want to pay?
QuoteIs putting a cop in every school even possible, or wise?
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/21/is-putting-cop-in-every-school-even-possible-or-wise/#ixzz2Fjdc8rg5
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/21/is-putting-cop-in-every-school-even-possible-or-wise/
QuoteCop Uses Taser Gun on 10-Year-Old Boy on Career Day
http://itsybitsysteps.com/cop-uses-taser-on-10-year-old-boy-on-career-day/
QuoteA police officer from Albuquerque is now in the hot seat for allegedly stunning a 10-year-old boy with a Taser after the boy refused to wash his car.
Shit writes itself, man. :lol:
Cops are dangerous.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 10:56:57 AM
Why in the name of fuck do you not have you guns under super-hardcore lockdown if you've got a son you are convinced is crazy enough to be committed living in your house? Why do you tell him / let him know you're trying to have him committed?
Obviously she needed the guns available to defend against her crazy son.
Somethings seems to gone wrong along the way though. :hmm:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2012, 06:48:52 AMObviously she needed the guns available to defend against her crazy son.
Please tell me you are being sarcastic?
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2012, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2012, 06:48:52 AMObviously she needed the guns available to defend against her crazy son.
Please tell me you are being sarcastic?
That's what his 2nd sentence as for. :cool:
Quote from: Kleves on December 21, 2012, 06:14:54 PM
Exec summary: the only solution to any gun problem is guns. Nothing that is wrong with guns cannot be cured by what is right with guns.
Perhaps this has been mentioned before but on the day the Newton shooting took place, a Chinese man assaulted 22 children in a primary school in Henan province; he did it with a knife - several were wounded but nobody is dead...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230)
Guns don't kill indeed. :rolleyes:
G.
If one of the chinamen kids had a gun far fewer would have been hurt.
Quote from: sbr on December 22, 2012, 11:50:05 AM
If one of the chinamen kids had a gun far fewer would have been hurt.
Now, the myth of all Chinese know Kung-fu is bullshit.
Chinamen kid kung-fu kept anyone from dying. Chinamen kids with guns would keep anyone from being stabbed in the first place.
Quote from: sbr on December 22, 2012, 12:28:24 PM
Chinamen kid kung-fu kept anyone from dying. Chinamen kids with guns would keep anyone from being stabbed in the first place.
So it's true. A bad person with a knife can only be stopped by a good person with a gun. See that wasnt hard now was it.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6365_4986534942223_1345540092_n.jpg)
:huh:
:lol:
Excellent rebuttal to the arm teachers nonsense.
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2012, 01:25:46 PM
:lol:
Excellent rebuttal to the arm teachers nonsense.
How is it even a rebuttal? It's just a non-sequitor.