Poll
Question:
Who is the most overrated commander of WW2?
Option 1: Rommel
votes: 9
Option 2: von Manstein
votes: 0
Option 3: Guderian
votes: 0
Option 4: von Rundstedt
votes: 1
Option 5: Kesselring
votes: 0
Option 6: Montgomery
votes: 11
Option 7: Slim
votes: 0
Option 8: Auchinleck
votes: 0
Option 9: Bomber Harris
votes: 1
Option 10: Cunningham
votes: 0
Option 11: de Gaulle
votes: 2
Option 12: Eisenhower
votes: 0
Option 13: MacArthur
votes: 7
Option 14: Patton
votes: 11
Option 15: Nimitz
votes: 1
Option 16: Halsey
votes: 0
Option 17: Zhukov
votes: 5
Option 18: Rokossovsky
votes: 0
Option 19: Konev
votes: 0
Option 20: Vasilevsky
votes: 0
Option 21: Timoshenko
votes: 0
Option 22: Chiang Kai-Chek
votes: 0
Option 23: Mao
votes: 2
Option 24: Tito
votes: 0
Option 25: Yamashita
votes: 0
Option 26: Yamamoto
votes: 0
Option 27: Nagumo
votes: 0
Option 28: Mannerheim
votes: 0
Option 29: Jaron/other
votes: 2
We did it for yank presidents, now let's do it for commanders of WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commanders_of_World_War_II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commanders_of_World_War_II) for more information about them.
At least not Mannerheim.
Who ranks Chiang Kai-Chek highly?
Most likely Montgomery.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 02:49:43 AM
Who ranks Chiang Kai-Chek highly?
I know. Several others, like de Gaulle, are not really ranked among excellent commanders either. This seems like a silly list (possibly of all WW2 commanders). People will end up voting for genuinely shitty commanders but that's not what overrated means.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 02:49:43 AM
Who ranks Chiang Kai-Chek highly?
Not even Madame Chang.
Quote from: Martinus on July 28, 2011, 02:56:51 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 02:49:43 AM
Who ranks Chiang Kai-Chek highly?
I know. Several others, like de Gaulle, are not really ranked among excellent commanders either. This seems like a silly list (possibly of all WW2 commanders). People will end up voting for genuinely shitty commanders but that's not what overrated means.
Well Chiang is the only one on the list to be on the winning side and still lose.
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Graziani.
Rommel seems to be the one bandied about in "greatest WW2 general" discussions with the least to show for it on the field, so probably him.
Zhukov
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 28, 2011, 03:25:32 AM
Rommel seems to be the one bandied about in "greatest WW2 general" discussions with the least to show for it on the field, so probably him.
That's who I went with. I think his reputation has to do with the oddities of propaganda. The Nazis propped him up because he close to them and had a good relationship with some of the top Nazis. The British propped him up to help explain away their failures in North Africa and make their victories more glorious. After the war the surviving German officers propped him up as an example of a German officer who was both brilliant and opposed to Hitler.
this stinks of a confederate style verlorene Sache taint. Rommel as Stonewall and Monty as McClellan bs.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 28, 2011, 03:25:32 AM
Rommel seems to be the one bandied about in "greatest WW2 general" discussions with the least to show for it on the field, so probably him.
If you go through London, there are Monty's statues everywhere. :P
Quote from: Martinus on July 28, 2011, 05:08:25 AM
If you go through London, there are Monty's statues everywhere. :P
Ah, well in what I've read about him (much of it on Languish) he is suitably maligned. :lol:
The point is it is "overrated" not worst. I haven't heard a word in praise of Monty since about 1970, he was very overrated in 1945 but that is a different matter.
Now Zhukov, yes............hmmm. There is a type of documentary programme made about WW2 nowadays. It is the one where the result of WW2 was determined on the Russian front, where Zhukov is an utter genius who engineered the Soviet victory and where any apparent errors by Zhukov were in fact Stalin's :D
With that sort of rating it is perfectly possible for Zhukov to both be a great general and heavily overrated.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 28, 2011, 06:13:57 AMIt is the one where the result of WW2 was determined on the Russian front, where Zhukov is an utter genius who engineered the Soviet victory and where any apparent errors by Zhukov were in fact Stalin's :D
With that sort of rating it is perfectly possible for Zhukov to both be a great general and heavily overrated.
Having a boss like Stalin or Hitler is great for a general. You can claim responsibility for every success, and for all the things that went wrong you can just claim "the crazy man" made me do it and everyone will nod their head.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 28, 2011, 06:13:57 AM
The point is it is "overrated" not worst. I haven't heard a word in praise of Monty since about 1970, he was very overrated in 1945 but that is a different matter.
Now Zhukov, yes............hmmm. There is a type of documentary programme made about WW2 nowadays. It is the one where the result of WW2 was determined on the Russian front, where Zhukov is an utter genius who engineered the Soviet victory and where any apparent errors by Zhukov were in fact Stalin's :D
With that sort of rating it is perfectly possible for Zhukov to both be a great general and heavily overrated.
Yep.
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.
Quote from: Martinus on July 28, 2011, 05:08:25 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 28, 2011, 03:25:32 AM
Rommel seems to be the one bandied about in "greatest WW2 general" discussions with the least to show for it on the field, so probably him.
If you go through London, there are Monty's statues everywhere. :P
I know there's one outside the Ministry of Defence on Whitehall (along with Slim and Alanbrooke). Where are all the others?
For "general time has been kindest to", I'd vote Slim - he's like the anti-Monty: mostly overlooked at the time, historians these days tend to rate him very highly.
Quote from: Warspite on July 28, 2011, 09:34:52 AM
I know there's one outside the Ministry of Defence on Whitehall (along with Slim and Alanbrooke). Where are all the others?
from wiki
QuoteA statue of Montgomery can be found outside the Ministry of Defence (the M.o.D.) in Whitehall, alongside those of Field Marshal Lord Slim and Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke. Another statue of Viscount Montgomery can be found in Brussels, Belgium, watching a Montgomery Square. Another statue of Montgomery is in Southsea, Hampshire, opposite the 'D' Day Museum.
Interestingly enough he got unmade as an honorary citizen of Montgomery, Alabama after dissing Eisenhower in his memoirs.
Quote from: Malthus on July 28, 2011, 09:43:12 AM
For "general time has been kindest to", I'd vote Slim - he's like the anti-Monty: mostly overlooked at the time, historians these days tend to rate him very highly.
yeah, having the reputation of being the best CW general of the war as well as leading "the forgotten army" sort of means everybody is a slim fanboi.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 28, 2011, 07:08:30 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 28, 2011, 06:13:57 AMIt is the one where the result of WW2 was determined on the Russian front, where Zhukov is an utter genius who engineered the Soviet victory and where any apparent errors by Zhukov were in fact Stalin's :D
With that sort of rating it is perfectly possible for Zhukov to both be a great general and heavily overrated.
Having a boss like Stalin or Hitler is great for a general. You can claim responsibility for every success, and for all the things that went wrong you can just claim "the crazy man" made me do it and everyone will nod their head.
That's only assuming you survive "the crazy man".
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on July 28, 2011, 09:46:44 AM
That's only assuming you survive "the crazy man".
As far as I remember, no general under Hitler was executed for either incompetence or being soundly and humiliatingly beaten, even when Hitler became raving mad. :hmm:
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on July 28, 2011, 09:46:44 AM
That's only assuming you survive "the crazy man".
As far as I remember, no general under Hitler was executed for either incompetence or being soundly and humiliatingly beaten, even when Hitler became raving mad. :hmm:
just for trying to arrange his early demise :contract:
Quote from: Malthus on July 28, 2011, 09:43:12 AM
For "general time has been kindest to", I'd vote Slim - he's like the anti-Monty: mostly overlooked at the time, historians these days tend to rate him very highly.
A pomme general highly respected in Australia, that alone should qualify him for greatness.
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?
Douglas MacArthur did.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?
Seedy.
HoI games rate him.
How much operational warfare did de Gaulle really take part in? After the Fall of France, I seem to recall he was a political leader first and foremost.
Of those mentioned, I suppose one might say that Bomber Harris is "over-rated", but that would be judging the effect of the strategic bombing campaign compared to the costs in retrospect. At the time, I am sure it made perfect sense and was about the only way outside of the commando raids that the UK could strike at Germany in Europe.
Zhukov and Konev did get results, but showed a sometimes outrageous disregard for their own losses.
I'm actually not at all sure that anyone these days is over-rated, given the enormous quantity of material published discussing the pros and cons of each commander.
Maybe a write-in candidate in Sepp Dietrich, as some seem to rate his battle prowess quite highly, while it definitely wasn't great.
Only Model could retreat from Leningrad.
He was a Model to us all.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?
Dugout Doug generally gets good marks for the Inchon landing.
With Harry "now-I-want-to-nuke-and-now-I-don't" Truman as boss anyone would have looked pretty meh.
re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated. There is a reason the cheesy documentaries make a lot of the fact that he had to cope with Stalin and that is because having to cope with Stalin is about as difficult a handicap as one can imagine. And yes, dealing with Hitler is a problem too, but then again not every German general on the list successfully did that. eg Rommel, among others.
My votes:
1. Rommel - had a small (alibeit important) single division command in France. The Africa campaign was a wasteful strategic sideshow which he ultimately lost. True, in the long run it was unwinnable, but he did his side no favors by pushing well beyond his logistical capacities into Egypt in summer 42. That's pretty much it for his tangible war record.
2. Yamamoto - Pearl Harbor and Midway were two of the biggest strategic blunders by any side during the war. About the best you can say is that the strategic problems he faced were so dismal it didn't really matter.
3. Patton - that degree of lack of self-control is a fatal flaw. He is like the all-star level ballplayer that misses the key games of the season because he gets into bar fights after the game.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 28, 2011, 12:36:39 PM
re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated.
Ah yes, the uber-Wehrmacht. Are you "PanzerFanBoi123" on some other boards?
Mao is pretty overrated by a lot of people, though maybe not Western historians.
Quote from: The Brain on July 28, 2011, 12:50:31 PM
Are you "PanzerFanBoi123" on some other boards?
Unlikely, assuming that the name doesn't correspond to an economist working in the Keynesian school.
Why, is he a fan of Zhukov as well?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 28, 2011, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 28, 2011, 12:50:31 PM
Are you "PanzerFanBoi123" on some other boards?
Unlikely, assuming that the name doesn't correspond to an economist working in the Keynesian school.
Why, is he a fan of Zhukov as well?
YES
I was amused when I saw Monty's tank in the IWM and it had great big letters across the front: F - O - R - D
Does anyone rate Tito as a military commander?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?
Seedy.
I think MacArthur is underrated in some circles, such as Languish.
Quote from: Norgy on July 28, 2011, 01:10:19 PM
Does anyone rate Tito as a military commander?
He led what was the most successful partisan operation of the war, and may have done more good then bad for his people (rare in a communist). I consider him an impressive figure.
Quote from: derspiess on July 28, 2011, 01:15:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?
Seedy.
I think MacArthur is underrated in some circles, such as Languish.
He was probably underrated by the Chinese as well.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
He led what was the most successful partisan operation of the war, and may have done more good then bad for his people (rare in a communist). I consider him an impressive figure.
As a political figure, he is certainly of a great calibre and value. In managing to avoid the Warszaw Pact, too, but as a field commander, I have no idea what he was like.
The operations were small-scale, and while successful both in carving out a liberated territory and in keeping German forces busy, I don't know how much of it was down to Tito's military leadership. He was the commander of the liberation army, of course, so I guess maybe I was the brains.
Voted MacArthur, based just on WWII--the forces in the Philipines getting caught by surprise hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor is pretty inexcusable. But if you give him credit for Inchon (even if he did overplay his hand after that), then he looks a lot better, and I'd proabably vote for Halsey. Spruance should have gotten the fifth star, not Halsey.
McArthur, Monty, Halsey all have come under very strong criticism to a degree that has entered even the casual histories, and on that basis I would not include them as candidates for most overrated.
Patton clearly.
Quote from: dps on July 28, 2011, 01:40:09 PM
Voted MacArthur, based just on WWII--the forces in the Philipines getting caught by surprise hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor is pretty inexcusable. But if you give him credit for Inchon (even if he did overplay his hand after that), then he looks a lot better, and I'd proabably vote for Halsey. Spruance should have gotten the fifth star, not Halsey.
Regarding MacArthur, his performance in Korea I have mixed feelings about (and think he was correct in suggesting the use of nuclear weapons against PRChina), but in retrospect, was there actually any point to anything he did in World War II?
Patton, easily.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 28, 2011, 02:35:32 PM
Regarding MacArthur, his performance in Korea I have mixed feelings about (and think he was correct in suggesting the use of nuclear weapons against PRChina), but in retrospect, was there actually any point to anything he did in World War II?
I have read at least one work that favorably compared his island-hopping reconquest of New Guinea and surrounding areas to the Navy's drive in the central Pacific.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 28, 2011, 02:42:55 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 28, 2011, 02:35:32 PM
Regarding MacArthur, his performance in Korea I have mixed feelings about (and think he was correct in suggesting the use of nuclear weapons against PRChina), but in retrospect, was there actually any point to anything he did in World War II?
I have read at least one work that favorably compared his island-hopping reconquest of New Guinea and surrounding areas to the Navy's drive in the central Pacific.
I don't mean he did a bad job, but rather am curious if there was a point was to the job itself, in light of the atomic bomb. I mean, the achievement of the campaign in France, the Low Countries, and western Germany was the preemption of Soviet domination of central as well as eastern Europe. But the achievement of the Philippines campaign seems far more ambiguous.
This is all hindsight, of course.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 28, 2011, 02:48:12 PM
I don't mean he did a bad job, but rather am curious if there was a point was to the job itself, in light of the atomic bomb. I mean, the achievement of the campaign in France, the Low Countries, and western Germany was the preemption of Soviet domination of central as well as eastern Europe. But the achievement of the Philippines campaign seems far more ambiguous.
This is all hindsight, of course.
Interdiction of oil supplies from the Dutch East Indies to the home islands.
Couldn't they find a different place to interdict from then New Guinea? I mean, there's nothing fucking there, and it's kind of of out of the way.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 02:58:32 PM
Couldn't they find a different place to interdict from then New Guinea? I mean, there's nothing fucking there, and it's kind of of out of the way.
They didn't interdict them from New Guinea. They went through New Guinea first to get to the Phillipines.
Mac, Monty, and almost every Japanese commander in WWII (Let's make a giant elaborate plan!).
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 28, 2011, 03:43:04 PM
Mac, Monty, and almost every Japanese commander in WWII (Let's make a giant elaborate plan!).
Hmm, needs more "LOL MONTY'S STILL IN CAEN".
Disappointing, Ed, disappointing.
Quote from: Warspite on July 28, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 28, 2011, 03:43:04 PM
Mac, Monty, and almost every Japanese commander in WWII (Let's make a giant elaborate plan!).
Hmm, needs more "LOL MONTY'S STILL IN CAEN".
Disappointing, Ed, disappointing.
Monty is still whining to get a B-17 to fly around in.
Happy?
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 28, 2011, 03:43:04 PM
Mac, Monty, and almost every Japanese commander in WWII (Let's make a giant elaborate plan!).
Market-Garden
I don't get the Monty hate. Dude was the only one following a reasonable plan to get to Berlin and saving northern Europe from the Russkies, instead of retarded yankee ideas about a southern redoubt :wacko:
Quote from: Zoupa on July 28, 2011, 08:34:16 PM
I don't get the Monty hate. Dude was the only one following a reasonable plan to get to Berlin and saving northern Europe from the Russkies, instead of retarded yankee ideas about a southern redoubt :wacko:
There was no attempt "to save northern Europe form the Russkies". The lines had already been drawn. Monty's plan was a bad idea and it was poorly executed. His progress on Caen is heavily criticized because of the vast gulf between what he said he could do and what he actually did.
Quote from: Zoupa on July 28, 2011, 08:34:16 PM
I don't get the Monty hate. Dude was the only one following a reasonable plan to get to Berlin and saving northern Europe from the Russkies, instead of retarded yankee ideas about a southern redoubt :wacko:
He was gay.
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
I think you missed this word. There wasn't a Slovak commander on the list either.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2011, 01:08:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
I think you missed this word. There wasn't a Slovak commander on the list either.
What Raz said.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 09:00:08 PM
The lines had already been drawn.
Drawing lines without creating facts on the ground would hardly have convinced Stalin to uphold his end of the bargain.
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2011, 01:08:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
I think you missed this word. There wasn't a Slovak commander on the list either.
What Raz said.
Sure. I guess 20% of D-Day means nothing.
Quote from: Zoupa on July 29, 2011, 01:42:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2011, 01:08:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
I think you missed this word. There wasn't a Slovak commander on the list either.
What Raz said.
Sure. I guess 20% of D-Day means nothing.
No, not in the grand scheme of things. Sure, the canucks did good in the war, large escort fleet and an army in the western front. But what commander precisely should I have added?
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 02:06:32 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 29, 2011, 01:42:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2011, 01:08:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
I think you missed this word. There wasn't a Slovak commander on the list either.
What Raz said.
Sure. I guess 20% of D-Day means nothing.
No, not in the grand scheme of things. Sure, the canucks did good in the war, large escort fleet and an army in the western front. But what commander precisely should I have added?
Harry Crerar.
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:10:55 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 02:06:32 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 29, 2011, 01:42:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2011, 01:08:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 28, 2011, 03:17:30 AM
Well, I tried to have at least one from every major combatant. Though I couldn't find any Italian to put there.
Canada? :yeahright:
I think you missed this word. There wasn't a Slovak commander on the list either.
What Raz said.
Sure. I guess 20% of D-Day means nothing.
No, not in the grand scheme of things. Sure, the canucks did good in the war, large escort fleet and an army in the western front. But what commander precisely should I have added?
Harry Crerar.
Never heard of him, why does he fit in amongst the commanders above?
Hard to be overrated when people don't know who you are.
Hey - you don't have to list generals from every combatant.
But if you're going to list fucking yugoslavs, and you claim to list combatants from each major power, you should list a Canadian. And Gen. Crerar was the most senior Canadian commander during WWII. And his Canadian 1st Army did liberate Holland.
Maybe you should start a most underrated poll. I think a lot of the Canadian war effort is subsumed within the British war effort by non-Canadians, which is a pity. Or you could hire the PR men that the Aussies use :cool:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 29, 2011, 02:22:12 AM
Hard to be overrated when people don't know who you are.
LOL no kidding. :lmfao:
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
Hey - you don't have to list generals from every combatant.
But if you're going to list fucking yugoslavs, and you claim to list combatants from each major power, you should list a Canadian. And Gen. Crerar was the most senior Canadian commander during WWII. And his Canadian 1st Army did liberate Holland.
My ambition was to list generals from the major powers meaning: Germany, Italy, Soviet Union, China, Japan, US, GB. Besides that I wanted prominent and famous commanders. I of course couldn't find any overrated italian commander so that's a fail, but whatever.
Some dude that commanded an army on the western front isn't prominent enough. If that were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals.
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 02:40:52 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
Hey - you don't have to list generals from every combatant.
But if you're going to list fucking yugoslavs, and you claim to list combatants from each major power, you should list a Canadian. And Gen. Crerar was the most senior Canadian commander during WWII. And his Canadian 1st Army did liberate Holland.
My ambition was to list generals from the major powers meaning: Germany, Italy, Soviet Union, China, Japan, US, GB. Besides that I wanted prominent and famous commanders. I of course couldn't find any overrated italian commander so that's a fail, but whatever.
Some dude that commanded an army on the western front isn't prominent enough. If that were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals.
Yes, many Soviet Armies on the Western Front. Too many to count. :hmm:
lol Canadians
Quote from: Viking on July 29, 2011, 02:44:27 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 02:40:52 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
Hey - you don't have to list generals from every combatant.
But if you're going to list fucking yugoslavs, and you claim to list combatants from each major power, you should list a Canadian. And Gen. Crerar was the most senior Canadian commander during WWII. And his Canadian 1st Army did liberate Holland.
My ambition was to list generals from the major powers meaning: Germany, Italy, Soviet Union, China, Japan, US, GB. Besides that I wanted prominent and famous commanders. I of course couldn't find any overrated italian commander so that's a fail, but whatever.
Some dude that commanded an army on the western front isn't prominent enough. If that were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals.
Yes, many Soviet Armies on the Western Front. Too many to count. :hmm:
:frusty: If army command were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals. Better?
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 02:48:09 AM
:frusty: If army command were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals. Better?
Much better, but please don't start thinking that a Red Army Division is to be counted as a full division.
Quote from: Viking on July 29, 2011, 02:59:17 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 29, 2011, 02:48:09 AM
:frusty: If army command were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals. Better?
Much better, but please don't start thinking that a Red Army Division is to be counted as a full division.
FFS :frusty: . If army, army group or front (where applicable) command were enough the list would be full of german and soviet generals. Better?
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2011, 02:45:00 AM
lol Canadians
Next time we'll stay on the side line. I hope you enjoy speaking Chino-Russian.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 06:29:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2011, 02:45:00 AM
lol Canadians
Next time we'll stay on the side line. I hope you enjoy speaking Chino-Russian.
What do you mean next time? The last time Canada had the chance to face fascism in open combat, it refused.
lol, Canadians think they are important.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 29, 2011, 07:11:00 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 06:29:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2011, 02:45:00 AM
lol Canadians
Next time we'll stay on the side line. I hope you enjoy speaking Chino-Russian.
What do you mean next time? The last time Canada had the chance to face fascism in open combat, it refused.
Iraq wasn't fascist.
& I mean, without us, as I mentioned before, you would still be trying to take St-Mere-Eglise.
@Ed Canadians? I seem to be the only one beating that drum. Damn it, Anglos! Have a little pride.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 07:36:25 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 29, 2011, 07:11:00 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 06:29:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2011, 02:45:00 AM
lol Canadians
Next time we'll stay on the side line. I hope you enjoy speaking Chino-Russian.
What do you mean next time? The last time Canada had the chance to face fascism in open combat, it refused.
Iraq wasn't fascist.
& I mean, without us, as I mentioned before, you would still be trying to take St-Mere-Eglise.
@Ed Canadians? I seem to be the only one beating that drum. Damn it, Anglos! Have a little pride.
Nah, someone else would have taken it, perhaps the brazilians or something. Or another american army. Or the soviets.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 07:36:25 AM
@Ed Canadians? I seem to be the only one beating that drum. Damn it, Anglos! Have a little pride.
I'm not seeing much difference. Froggy quackers or Anglo flannel wearers. All the same.
So let me get this straight-- Canuckleheads here are complaining that we're neglecting Canada's role in WWII by not listing one of their generals as a choice for "most overrated"? :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
Hey - you don't have to list generals from every combatant.
But if you're going to list fucking yugoslavs, and you claim to list combatants from each major power, you should list a Canadian. And Gen. Crerar was the most senior Canadian commander during WWII. And his Canadian 1st Army did liberate Holland.
More people know who Tito was than would know any Canadian general, ever.
Quote from: Zoupa on July 28, 2011, 08:34:16 PM
I don't get the Monty hate. Dude was the only one following a reasonable plan to get to Berlin and saving northern Europe from the Russkies, instead of retarded yankee ideas about a southern redoubt :wacko:
He wasn't exactly crap. He was a first-class administrator & trainer. But he was far too unimaginative and risk-averse (outside of his Market Garden failure). In many respects he's comparable to McClellan, except that he did win some decisive battles.
During and shortly after WWII, I would put him up there with the most overrated. Nowadays his reputation seems to have adjusted to a more or less accurate level, though.
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
So let me get this straight-- Canuckleheads here are complaining that we're neglecting Canada's role in WWII by not listing one of their generals as a choice for "most overrated"? :lol:
We are. It's crazy, I know. :Embarrass: :lol:
Quote from: Warspite on July 29, 2011, 09:48:42 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
Hey - you don't have to list generals from every combatant.
But if you're going to list fucking yugoslavs, and you claim to list combatants from each major power, you should list a Canadian. And Gen. Crerar was the most senior Canadian commander during WWII. And his Canadian 1st Army did liberate Holland.
More people know who Tito was than would know any Canadian general, ever.
There were more people in Yugoslavia then there were in Canada as well.
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
So let me get this straight-- Canuckleheads here are complaining that we're neglecting Canada's role in WWII by not listing one of their generals as a choice for "most overrated"? :lol:
It's an insult to our mediocrity. :mad:
Quote from: Zanza on July 29, 2011, 01:36:08 AM
Drawing lines without creating facts on the ground would hardly have convinced Stalin to uphold his end of the bargain.
There were facts on ground. The ground at Hiroshima and the ground at Nagasaki.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 29, 2011, 07:20:30 AM
lol, Canadians think they are important.
No more timbits for you!
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
So let me get this straight-- Canuckleheads here are complaining that we're neglecting Canada's role in WWII by not listing one of their generals as a choice for "most overrated"? :lol:
patriotism is weird that way :P
Quote from: Zanza on July 29, 2011, 01:36:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2011, 09:00:08 PM
The lines had already been drawn.
Drawing lines without creating facts on the ground would hardly have convinced Stalin to uphold his end of the bargain.
Allied Armies reached the Elbe before Stalin anyway, going any further would have meant taking ground that had to be given to the Soviets in the end. And Stalin did ultimately agree to the partition of Eastern Europe. For instance he did not intervene in the Greek Civil War.
All I'm saying is that no modern war gets anywhere without Canadian involvement.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 10:11:31 AM
All I'm saying is that no modern war gets anywhere without Canadian involvement.
Are you suggesting that Canada should ally with China and Russia then?
I wasn't but it might be a good idea. For them. If they want to win.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 10:59:01 AM
I wasn't but it might be a good idea. For them. If they want to win.
You're with us or you're against us. Join us in the fight or we will invade, a la Fallout.
Quote from: Warspite on July 29, 2011, 09:48:42 AM
More people know who Tito was than would know any Canadian general, ever.
Indeed. I didn't even know who Crerar was.
Maybe this calls for a poll: "Most unrated WW2 commanders".
O Canada....
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2011, 09:52:48 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 28, 2011, 08:34:16 PM
I don't get the Monty hate. Dude was the only one following a reasonable plan to get to Berlin and saving northern Europe from the Russkies, instead of retarded yankee ideas about a southern redoubt :wacko:
He wasn't exactly crap. He was a first-class administrator & trainer. But he was far too unimaginative and risk-averse (outside of his Market Garden failure). In many respects he's comparable to McClellan, except that he did win some decisive battles.
During and shortly after WWII, I would put him up there with the most overrated. Nowadays his reputation seems to have adjusted to a more or less accurate level, though.
Considering the English manpower shortage and having dissolve units to feed replacements to front line units, I can understand him being risk adverse in '44.
Still no excuse for him being an asshole during the Bulge. LOL I SAVED YOU YANKS! Nigga please.
And dammit, I don't want to ever have to defend the English ever again. :mad:
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 29, 2011, 12:07:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2011, 09:52:48 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 28, 2011, 08:34:16 PM
I don't get the Monty hate. Dude was the only one following a reasonable plan to get to Berlin and saving northern Europe from the Russkies, instead of retarded yankee ideas about a southern redoubt :wacko:
He wasn't exactly crap. He was a first-class administrator & trainer. But he was far too unimaginative and risk-averse (outside of his Market Garden failure). In many respects he's comparable to McClellan, except that he did win some decisive battles.
During and shortly after WWII, I would put him up there with the most overrated. Nowadays his reputation seems to have adjusted to a more or less accurate level, though.
Considering the English manpower shortage and having dissolve units to feed replacements to front line units, I can understand him being risk adverse in '44.
Still no excuse for him being an asshole during the Bulge. LOL I SAVED YOU YANKS! Nigga please.
Quote from: Oexmelin on July 29, 2011, 11:35:48 AM
Indeed. I didn't even know who Crerar was.
Maybe this calls for a poll: "Most unrated WW2 commanders".
:D
Canadian generals are best when seen, but not heard.
And yes that is directed at you, Lew MacKenzie.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 10:59:01 AM
I wasn't but it might be a good idea. For them. If they want to win.
You know, I think you're right. I can't think of a single time when Canada was on the losing side of a war. :cool:
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 10:59:01 AM
I wasn't but it might be a good idea. For them. If they want to win.
You know, I think you're right. I can't think of a single time when Canada was on the losing side of a war. :cool:
Well, the Seven Years war.
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:42:00 PM
You know, I think you're right. I can't think of a single time when Canada was on the losing side of a war. :cool:
Canada lost several wars of national liberation against the British monarchical regime. Sadly a major cause of the defeat each time was the widespread willingness of Canadians to collaborate with their royalist oppresors. Not even the intervention of their free brethern to the South could swing the tide of victory.
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:42:00 PM
You know, I think you're right. I can't think of a single time when Canada was on the losing side of a war. :cool:
Afghanistan.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 29, 2011, 03:13:20 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2011, 02:42:00 PM
You know, I think you're right. I can't think of a single time when Canada was on the losing side of a war. :cool:
Afghanistan.
Don't think that war is over yet Yi.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 29, 2011, 12:15:44 PM
And dammit, I don't want to ever have to defend the English ever again. :mad:
:lol:
I remember a US general making a similar point in the
World at War televison series. He also noted that, so far, the American troops had had a rather boring time in England and were rather keen to have bash at the wehrmacht before the 3rd Reich ended. Meanwhile many of the British troops had been at it for years and were far more focussed on survival and getting home. If Monty and Patton had swapped personalities then one suspects that both sets of troops would have been rather pissed off :cool:
Major Frost and his boys were pissed off as it was.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2011, 06:08:06 PM
Major Frost and his boys were pissed off as it was.
Grabner's death ride. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiiUJ4sDuX0
Great film. I wonder if the SS actually stood up on their vehicles ram-rod stiff like that.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 29, 2011, 07:36:25 AM
I mean, without us, as I mentioned before, you would still be trying to take St-Mere-Eglise.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-snc4%2F50332_42429772502_4066_n.jpg&hash=a94a014e91a0b45c60e636cdfab5e5a14a8f7893)
St-Mere-Eglise fell to the paratroopers before the landings even took place.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 28, 2011, 12:36:39 PM
re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated.
Exactly. The fact that he survived the entirety of the war without getting recalled to Moscow and getting a bullet in the back of his head for his efforts gives him a gold fucking star.
Quote3. Patton - that degree of lack of self-control is a fatal flaw. He is like the all-star level ballplayer that misses the key games of the season because he gets into bar fights after the game.
He was a fighter and he was a winner.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 30, 2011, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 28, 2011, 12:36:39 PM
re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated.
Exactly. The fact that he survived the entirety of the war without getting recalled to Moscow and getting a bullet in the back of his head for his efforts gives him a gold fucking star.
Then Budyonyy also demands a gold star as well as a vat of wine to swim around in with hookers.
Verdict: UNDERRATED.
Oh, and Monty can eat the peanuts out of my star-spangled shit. Fucker took years off Ike's life, just by being in the room.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 30, 2011, 08:27:22 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 30, 2011, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 28, 2011, 12:36:39 PM
re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated.
Exactly. The fact that he survived the entirety of the war without getting recalled to Moscow and getting a bullet in the back of his head for his efforts gives him a gold fucking star.
Then Budyonyy also demands a gold star as well as a vat of wine to swim around in with hookers.
Verdict: UNDERRATED.
Most Soviet generals deserve places in whore heaven.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 30, 2011, 08:27:22 AM
Then Budyonyy also demands a gold star as well as a vat of wine to swim around in with hookers.
Verdict: UNDERRATED.
Don't forget the 'stache.
Quote from: PDH on July 30, 2011, 12:48:34 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 30, 2011, 08:27:22 AM
Then Budyonyy also demands a gold star as well as a vat of wine to swim around in with hookers.
Verdict: UNDERRATED.
Don't forget the 'stache.
:yes: Greatest facial hair since Burnside.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on July 30, 2011, 03:27:25 PM
:yes: Greatest facial hair since Burnside.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache2.allpostersimages.com%2Fp%2FLRG%2F17%2F1744%2F8UW3D00Z%2Fposters%2Fkitchener-poster-recruitment-poster-featuring-kitchener-you-are-the-man-i-want.jpg&hash=124da5e6edf52929fa30659bbb058afe733e7770)
to justify why Kitchener's 'stache isn't good enough.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 29, 2011, 06:11:27 PM
Grabner's death ride. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiiUJ4sDuX0
You're right. The most over-rated general was the one who thought the PIAT was a good idea.
Quote from: Oexmelin on July 29, 2011, 11:35:48 AM
Quote from: Warspite on July 29, 2011, 09:48:42 AM
More people know who Tito was than would know any Canadian general, ever.
Indeed. I didn't even know who Crerar was.
Maybe this calls for a poll: "Most unrated WW2 commanders".
:lol:
Slim would probably still win.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 30, 2011, 08:27:33 AM
Oh, and Monty can eat the peanuts out of my star-spangled shit. Fucker took years off Ike's life, just by being in the room.
And Ike's mistreatment of Nixon justifies Monty's attitude towards Ike.
Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 30, 2011, 08:27:33 AM
Oh, and Monty can eat the peanuts out of my star-spangled shit. Fucker took years off Ike's life, just by being in the room.
And Ike's mistreatment of Nixon justifies Monty's attitude towards Ike.
Shut the fuck up, junior varsity.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 01, 2011, 10:29:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 30, 2011, 08:27:33 AM
Oh, and Monty can eat the peanuts out of my star-spangled shit. Fucker took years off Ike's life, just by being in the room.
And Ike's mistreatment of Nixon justifies Monty's attitude towards Ike.
Shut the fuck up, junior varsity.
Watch your tone. You're going to be begging me to help you with your imigration as a reference when President Bachmann gets inaugurated.
Zoupa or Grey Fox will sponsor me. Vive Le Montreal!
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 01, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
Zoupa or Grey Fox will sponsor me. Vive Le Montreal!
You still need me not to warn the feds about your nigger-hating.
I'll just ask Zoupa for a cyanide cap if Bachmann presidency comes to pass. It's probably cheaper in Canadian drug stores.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 01, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
Zoupa or Grey Fox will sponsor me. Vive Le Montreal!
I dare say I have more pull within CIC (Citizenship and Immigration Canada) then the rest of Languish Canada put together. I know Minister Kenney from way back in Reform, not to mention my history as a long-serving servant of Her Majesty. :shifty:
Now despite being a filthy Democrat, I mostly like you. Mostly. So I
might be persuaded to let your many transgressions pass...
Quote from: Barrister on August 01, 2011, 11:50:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 01, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
Zoupa or Grey Fox will sponsor me. Vive Le Montreal!
I dare say I have more pull within CIC (Citizenship and Immigration Canada) then the rest of Languish Canada put together. I know Minister Kenney from way back in Reform, not to mention my history as a long-serving servant of Her Majesty. :shifty:
Now despite being a filthy Democrat, I mostly like you. Mostly. So I might be persuaded to let your many transgressions pass...
<_<
Surely you are not suggesting that your personal connections might be used to arrange for your friends to be fast tracked through the system?
:hmm:
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2011, 11:07:29 PM
I'll just ask Zoupa for a cyanide cap if Bachmann presidency comes to pass. It's probably cheaper in Canadian drug stores.
I give massive discounts on cyanide to Amerikkkans.
As in, 5 finger discount.
Free 99.
Love y'all! :sleep:
Quote from: Barrister on August 01, 2011, 11:50:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 01, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
Zoupa or Grey Fox will sponsor me. Vive Le Montreal!
I dare say I have more pull within CIC (Citizenship and Immigration Canada) then the rest of Languish Canada put together. I know Minister Kenney from way back in Reform, not to mention my history as a long-serving servant of Her Majesty. :shifty:
Now despite being a filthy Democrat, I mostly like you. Mostly. So I might be persuaded to let your many transgressions pass...
Snag me citizenship! It's too damn hot here in New York. I need to travel north. :Canuck: