Poll
Question:
Who will get te shot?
Option 1: North American: Yes
Option 2: North American: No
Option 3: European: Yes
Option 4: European: No
Option 5: Asian: Yes
Option 6: Asian: No
Option 7: Other: Yes
Option 8: Other: No
The canadian flu shot campaign began yesterday and since we keep being bombarded by real-time newsfeed about it I'm getting very jittery. Originally I did not intend to get the shot but now I'm wondering. On the one hand you keep hearing all kinds of horror stories about getting vaccinated and becoming sick like a dog - on the other what if I don't and I do catch something?
So here's a tally of who intends to do what.
G.
QuoteOn the other what if I don't and I do catch something?
That something is basically a run of the mill flu. Do you get shots for the seasonal one as well?
No. It's just another type of flu and I'm at no greater risk of any serious effects than any other strain. I'd rather not be almost certainly quite ill from the jab than stand a small chance of getting very ill from the bug.
My dad and my bloke both have heart problems, so they'll be getting one on top of the basic flu jab they already get.
By the time I get access to the shot it'll be mid-december. Probably too late.
I've already been well and truly exposed, not much point.
As far as I know, I'm not in the at-risk group that needs the shot per se, and as such I don't see a huge reason to get the shot.
What would push me over into the yes camp is the consideration I need to take in relation to my nieces.
I really don't know, but I am not worried.
I most likely had it already so there isn't any need to get vaccinated.
No, won't be getting the shot. I've never had flu so figure my chances of evading this one are good. Our youngest had it a couple of weeks ago but none of the rest of us got it.
Different for a member of an at risk group of course.
I got a seasonal flu shot for the first time. I haven't gotten the flu in many years. I am not worried about swine flu.
I got it. Working in the medical field; can't be at home sleeping it off if people need help for it.
I'm too lazy.
And it'd probally cost me money here (damn capitalist Swedish health system).
So no
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 27, 2009, 07:46:02 AM
By the time I get access to the shot it'll be mid-december. Probably too late.
It's been nice knowing you GF. :(
:P
I got the seasonal flu shot; I've been getting that every year since I've worked at a hospital. I don't work in health care but the hospital gives them to all employees who want it, and being in the over all environment, I feel it's a good idea to get the shot.
I'll get the swine flu shot if it's offered. So far it's in short supply, and health care providers will get the H1N1 vaccination first, as makes sense. Looks like it may be available later in the season for others, don't know, so I'm not sure now if I'll get it.
In my special conditions I am normally advised ot get the seasonal one, even if I haven't so far, because the effects of a flu is a more active immunesystem, something I take medicine to avoid :)
BUT
the Swineflu shot contains not only a vaccine but also an immunesystem booster, which would be very bad news for me. So far the experts are divided, I'm part risk group, but the sideeffects might be harsher than the flyu and as such I should not get it.
So far I've decided not to.
V
I'll get it. I've had flu shots for years, no bad effects.
I got both the H1N1 and seasonal flu shot last night. Never gotten a flu shot before.
The injection sight is a bit sore, but no other side effects.
And get Dystonia? No thank you.
Quote from: Grallon on October 27, 2009, 07:38:45 AM
The canadian flu shot campaign began yesterday and since we keep being bombarded by real-time newsfeed about it I'm getting very jittery. Originally I did not intend to get the shot but now I'm wondering. On the one hand you keep hearing all kinds of horror stories about getting vaccinated and becoming sick like a dog - on the other what if I don't and I do catch something?
So here's a tally of who intends to do what.
G.
the vaccine has the same template has the regular flu shot.
There are side effects to every vaccine, there are risks involved.
However, the risks are less than getting the swine flu.
Mostly, you do it for everyone else around you you will meet: you may be sick, but not deadly sick, and you will contaminate everyone around you.
The goal of this vaccination is to prevent a pandemia. And to reduce possibilities of this virus mutating.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on October 27, 2009, 09:56:58 AM
And get Dystonia? No thank you.
that's bullshit and you know it. Doctors could not link the virus to her condition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia
Viper, The H1N1 vac isn't exactly the same as the seasonal.
The H1N1 has an additional "booster" that triggers the immune system. For anyone with autoimmune symptoms like me or CK that should be considered before accepting :)
V
I am cynical about the whole affair , and was not planning on getting one, but I have weighed various risks and probabilities, and so I think I just might.
But if the clinic situation is silly, I'll put it off.
I won't get it. I stand more chance of dying because I fell down the stairs than dying because of the flu.
Quote from: Brazen on October 27, 2009, 07:44:06 AM
No. It's just another type of flu and I'm at no greater risk of any serious effects than any other strain.
Certainly not like the H1N1 we have here in North America. :P This is a new strain and you certainly are at a greater risk of serious effects if you get it. It is different from another type of flu. This one kills healthy people....
QuoteI'd rather not be almost certainly quite ill from the jab than stand a small chance of getting very ill from the bug.
How does a flu shot create an almost certain chance you will get "quite ill". You do kow that flu shots dont give you the flu right?
QuoteMy dad and my bloke both have heart problems, so they'll be getting one on top of the basic flu jab they already get.
So its ok for people with compromised health to most certainly get sick from the flu shot but not you. :P
the 13 year old hockey player dieing over the weekend put me in the vaccination camp.
it would be really shitty if I was a carrier and infected someone who could not deal with it so well.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 27, 2009, 12:25:41 PM
the 13 year old hockey player dieing over the weekend put me in the vaccination camp.
it would be really shitty if I was a carrier and infected someone who could not deal with it so well.
I may be wrong, but doesn't the vaccine prevent you from getting sick, but it does not really do anything to your capacity to be a carrier? In face, if you got sick you would probably go home or to a hospital, whereas if you are vaccinated and continue going around while the virus gets on you, you probably would have a bigger chance of infecting someone.
I imagine it would decrease the effectiveness of being a carrier. for example, I wouldn't be coughing in my sleeve and sneezing in restaurants.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 27, 2009, 12:35:17 PM
I imagine it would decrease the effectiveness of being a carrier. for example, I wouldn't be coughing in my sleeve and sneezing in restaurants.
Yeah, I was not very clear. If the virus isn't making you sick, it isn't reproducing in your body; and if it isn't reproducing in your body, you aren't going to be able to pass it on in any other than the most trivial ways (touching something else covered in the virus and then shaking hands, that sort of thing), and that will have only very short term potential.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 27, 2009, 12:25:41 PM
the 13 year old hockey player dieing over the weekend put me in the vaccination camp.
it would be really shitty if I was a carrier and infected someone who could not deal with it so well.
That's exactly what caused me to go get it.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 27, 2009, 12:25:41 PM
the 13 year old hockey player dieing over the weekend put me in the vaccination camp.
it would be really shitty if I was a carrier and infected someone who could not deal with it so well.
A perfectly healthy woman in her 20s in Mission died of this last week.
The thing that really pisses me off are all the people that decide not to get vaccinated because they dont think they will be affected simply because they dont get the flu normally. I am not so upset that they are idiots for not recognizing that they are in fact in jeopardy with this new strain. What really pisses me off is that they are not thinking about all the people around them that might die because of this.
I am glad you have rethought the matter.
Quote from: Martinus on October 27, 2009, 12:28:36 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 27, 2009, 12:25:41 PM
the 13 year old hockey player dieing over the weekend put me in the vaccination camp.
it would be really shitty if I was a carrier and infected someone who could not deal with it so well.
I may be wrong, but doesn't the vaccine prevent you from getting sick, but it does not really do anything to your capacity to be a carrier? In face, if you got sick you would probably go home or to a hospital, whereas if you are vaccinated and continue going around while the virus gets on you, you probably would have a bigger chance of infecting someone.
The less people that are sick, the less chance this will spread.
Someone from my office saw me getting the vaccine yesterday, and now several people have asked me about it - and said they probably weren't going to get it.
I've heard a lot of silly reasons so far...
It is already mandatory for us to get the regular flu shot(well, the nasal mist too, except for certain people), and we should be getting this one sometime soon as well.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 27, 2009, 03:05:36 PM
It is already mandatory for us to get the regular flu shot(well, the nasal mist too, except for certain people), and we should be getting this one sometime soon as well.
Just sign the goddamned waiver Tonto!
Already had it. Not the shot. The swine flu. Not much point now.
Where's the option "I live in a third world country where the vaccine will not be offered en masse."?
I haven't really thought about it yet. They have recently started with large scale vaccination here I think. I guess I'll ask my doctor if she thinks it's a good idea.
Quote from: Martinus on October 27, 2009, 04:55:57 PM
Where's the option "I live in a third world country where the vaccine will not be offered en masse."?
:nelson
North American, no. I'm a student at a college campus with almost no other contact; high risk of contamination, low risk of complications. My vaccination wouldn't really change much in the grand scheme of things.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 01:56:59 PM
A perfectly healthy woman in her 20s in Mission died of this last week.
The thing that really pisses me off are all the people that decide not to get vaccinated because they dont think they will be affected simply because they dont get the flu normally. I am not so upset that they are idiots for not recognizing that they are in fact in jeopardy with this new strain. What really pisses me off is that they are not thinking about all the people around them that might die because of this.
I am glad you have rethought the matter.
Personally, I'd rather leave the limited supply of flu vaccinations to those who need them, i.e. those already at risk. Given that the public health department here is saying that those older than 24 without an underlying concern are at greatest risk, that doesn't include me. As for the kids, they've already been directly exposed to the disease for two months. Why waste the vaccine on kids who would have gotten it already if they were going to get it at all?
Besides, I've long believed that the best defense to any routine disease is to get it and allow your body to build up an immunity naturally. You want a vaccination, feel free to handle it the way you see fit, and I will do the same.
I'm not in the risk group but I'll ask for a vaccination when I see my doctor on Friday.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 10:46:42 AM
Certainly not like the H1N1 we have here in North America. :P This is a new strain and you certainly are at a greater risk of serious effects if you get it. It is different from another type of flu. This one kills healthy people....
The "regular" flu kills healthy people, too. What makes this one unusual is that it has a much greater impact on those who are normally considered "safe" from the danger of death due to the flu, i.e. teenagers and young adults. The same precautions apply for H1N1 as for any other: stay hydrated, stay in bed, and go to the ER if your temp spikes higher than 103F.
The problem is that teens and young adults don't do those things; they're used to being able to tough it out through a flu. This one they can't do that, and when the try bad things happen. In addition, this flu moves through the system much quicker, so you have to be more on-the-ball on the symptoms than usual. Stay smart and this flu is no more dangerous to you than the seasonal flu crap.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 27, 2009, 07:00:59 PM
North American, no. I'm a student at a college campus with almost no other contact; high risk of contamination, low risk of complications. My vaccination wouldn't really change much in the grand scheme of things.
Hate to break it to you, but the danger ages are 12-24 for this one. I believe you're right in the mix there. You're actually in the "high risk of complications" on this one.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:06:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 01:56:59 PM
A perfectly healthy woman in her 20s in Mission died of this last week.
The thing that really pisses me off are all the people that decide not to get vaccinated because they dont think they will be affected simply because they dont get the flu normally. I am not so upset that they are idiots for not recognizing that they are in fact in jeopardy with this new strain. What really pisses me off is that they are not thinking about all the people around them that might die because of this.
I am glad you have rethought the matter.
Personally, I'd rather leave the limited supply of flu vaccinations to those who need them, i.e. those already at risk. Given that the public health department here is saying that those older than 24 without an underlying concern are at greatest risk, that doesn't include me. As for the kids, they've already been directly exposed to the disease for two months. Why waste the vaccine on kids who would have gotten it already if they were going to get it at all?
Besides, I've long believed that the best defense to any routine disease is to get it and allow your body to build up an immunity naturally. You want a vaccination, feel free to handle it the way you see fit, and I will do the same.
It's not that limited, and I believe they are urging kids the age of your kids to get the shot. Do not blame this on "limited supply".
And tell me - do you let your kids get 'natural immunity' to polio? Chickenpox? Measles?
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2009, 08:17:52 PM
It's not that limited, and I believe they are urging kids the age of your kids to get the shot. Do not blame this on "limited supply".
And tell me - do you let your kids get 'natural immunity' to polio? Chickenpox? Measles?
My kids have been exposed for the last two months - and two have probably already had it - while the world has waited on a vaccination. Around here, there aren't enough vaccinations to go around the schools, but that's okay, because the disease has already washed through.
As for the rest, my kids were vaccinated for polio, and measles as part of the MMR series. Chickenpox, however, they got "naturally", which was preferred to the vaccine, yes.
Just because I don't agree with some vaccines doesn't mean that I disagree with all of them. Some diseases are more dangerous than others. Chickenpox and the flu, however, do not fall into the same category as polio or mumps.
Quote from: Valdemar on October 27, 2009, 10:01:09 AM
Viper, The H1N1 vac isn't exactly the same as the seasonal.
The H1N1 has an additional "booster" that triggers the immune system. For anyone with autoimmune symptoms like me or CK that should be considered before accepting :)
V
I don't know how it's called in english, but the "booster" you are referring too his already present in the seasonal flu vaccine distributed in Europe to about 45 million people without problems.
Of course if you have health problems you shouldn't rush to get any vaccine without speaking to your doctor. I'm assuming people are healthy without chronical disease, and without allergies to eggs.
There are vaccines without the "booster" for pregnant women, and some other people.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2009, 09:33:29 AM
I got both the H1N1 and seasonal flu shot last night. Never gotten a flu shot before.
The injection sight is a bit sore, but no other side effects.
It will be available on Nov. 17th here. So I'll get it then.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:14:15 PM
Hate to break it to you, but the danger ages are 12-24 for this one. I believe you're right in the mix there. You're actually in the "high risk of complications" on this one.
I thought 30s-40s was the danger group because of the immune over-response?
Quote from: Martinus on October 27, 2009, 12:28:36 PM
I may be wrong, but doesn't the vaccine prevent you from getting sick, but it does not really do anything to your capacity to be a carrier? In face, if you got sick you would probably go home or to a hospital, whereas if you are vaccinated and continue going around while the virus gets on you, you probably would have a bigger chance of infecting someone.
What I was told by a doc, is that a vaccine, any vaccine, will eradicate the disease if around 70% of the population gets it.
So, it would seem that you can't be carrier once you get the vaccine, otherwise you would alway see a 30% of the population getting the various diseases we have vaccines for.
I think the virus needs some time to incubate before it becomes contagious, so if your body can fight it immediatly, there's almost 0 chances you'll be a carrier.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:14:15 PM
Hate to break it to you, but the danger ages are 12-24 for this one. I believe you're right in the mix there. You're actually in the "high risk of complications" on this one.
hmm. don't think so...
Quote
Personnes à risque:
les femmes enceintes ;
• les très jeunes enfants (moins de 2 ans) ;
• les personnes atteintes du cancer et celles
immunodéfi cientes ou immunodépressives ;
• les personnes atteintes de maladies chroniques
cardiaques ou pulmonaires ;
• les personnes atteintes de maladies du foie ;
• les personnes atteintes de diabète ;
• les personnes de 65 ans ou plus.
In english:
- pregnant women
- Kids aged 2 and below
- people with cancer or disease affecting the immune system
- people with heart or lung disease
- people with liver disease
- diabetics
- people over 65
Got the english version of the whole thing:
http://publications.msss.gouv.qc.ca/acrobat/f/documentation/2009/09-235-11A.pdf
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 27, 2009, 08:31:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:14:15 PM
Hate to break it to you, but the danger ages are 12-24 for this one. I believe you're right in the mix there. You're actually in the "high risk of complications" on this one.
I thought 30s-40s was the danger group because of the immune over-response?
Most healthy people are expected to survive.
However, there can be complications even with healthy people, as we have seen in Ontario where a 11yo kid and another one of 13 (hockey player), both in good health died from the H1N1.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:11:51 PM
The "regular" flu kills healthy people, too.
Only under extreme circumstances.
For Quebec (7 million people total), we're talking 1500 deaths per year for the 'regular' influenza, and these people are nearly all people with health problems, i.e. those who should get the vaccine every year.
According to the local public health department, the greatest risk is teens and young adults, so they're limiting the vaccination to those individuals in the schools here.
QuoteThe first available doses of the 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine are anticipated by early to mid-October. The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) has recommended that the following target groups (no ordering among groups) first receive the 2009 H1N1 vaccine when it becomes available: people ages 6 months to 24 years; pregnant women, people 25-64 years who have certain chronic medical conditions, such as heart or lung disease, diabetes, weakened immune systems, blood disorders, neurologic or neuromuscular disease, and other illnesses; parents and caregivers of children less than 6 months of age; and healthcare workers and emergency medical services personnel.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/pediatricpatients.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/pediatricpatients.htm)
In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf)
The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.
Quote from: viper37 on October 27, 2009, 08:43:33 PM
Only under extreme circumstances.
For Quebec (7 million people total), we're talking 1500 deaths per year for the 'regular' influenza, and these people are nearly all people with health problems, i.e. those who should get the vaccine every year.
And how many have died of H1N1? How many were "healthy"?
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:11:51 PM
The "regular" flu kills healthy people, too.
Depends on what you mean by regular. Influenza A (which this is a strain of) is the most dangerous. Influenza B is not as dangerous and does not kill healthy people.
QuoteWhat makes this one unusual is that it has a much greater impact on those who are normally considered "safe" from the danger of death due to the flu, i.e. teenagers and young adults. The same precautions apply for H1N1 as for any other: stay hydrated, stay in bed, and go to the ER if your temp spikes higher than 103F.
What makes this one unusual is that no one has any natural immunity to this unless they were borne before some date in the 50s since that is the last time a flu virius similar to this made the rounds. The same precautions do not work with this virius because of the complete lack of immunity people will have to it. I heard a doctor today saying it will be a complete crap shoot for each infected individual as to how their immune system respond.
QuoteStay smart and this flu is no more dangerous to you than the seasonal flu crap.
Completly and dangerously wrong. The teenager that died in Ontario over weekend was sent home from the clinic he was at because his fever seemed to be going down. His father checked on him and he seemed to be OK and then he was dead 10 minutes later. Make no mistake this influenza kills perfectly healthy people and can kill them quickly. You need to protect your kids from this. Not to mention yourself.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:06:39 PM
As for the kids, they've already been directly exposed to the disease for two months. Why waste the vaccine on kids who would have gotten it already if they were going to get it at all?
I am going to be brutally honest with you. You dont have a medical degree and you are self diagnosing what is adequate health care for your kids. Give your head a shake. Being exposed to the virus is not the same as having had the virus. That point was being made clear in all our media today. If your kids have not actually had this strain of influenza get them vaccinated!
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 09:24:20 PM
Completly and dangerously wrong. The teenager that died in Ontario over weekend was sent home from the clinic he was at because his fever seemed to be going down. His father checked on him and he seemed to be OK and then he was dead 10 minutes later. Make no mistake this influenza kills perfectly healthy people and can kill them quickly. You need to protect your kids from this. Not to mention yourself.
Two of my four kids have probably already had it, and most likely, I did, too. Oh, did I mention that one of the kids that had it is the one with diabetes? The vaccine isn't even available until next week. In our school alone, of the 700 staff and students, roughly 75 have tested positive for H1N1.
I don't doubt for a moment that this flu is more dangerous than the typical seasonal flu, but at the same time, I don't believe that it's as dangerous as the media - and yes, the CDC - would have us believe. When I see numbers - hard statistics - that show me exactly how many "healthy" people have succumbed to this flu compared to the "regular" flu, I may change my mind. However, until then, it's all just anecdotal.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:05:56 PM
The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.
Meri, the CDC is definitely not telling people not to get vaccinated. They are telling people to get vaccinated. Why do you think the CDC was working so hard to get a vaccine out as quickly as possible.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:30:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 09:24:20 PM
Completly and dangerously wrong. The teenager that died in Ontario over weekend was sent home from the clinic he was at because his fever seemed to be going down. His father checked on him and he seemed to be OK and then he was dead 10 minutes later. Make no mistake this influenza kills perfectly healthy people and can kill them quickly. You need to protect your kids from this. Not to mention yourself.
Two of my four kids have probably already had it, and most likely, I did, too. Oh, did I mention that one of the kids that had it is the one with diabetes? The vaccine isn't even available until next week. In our school alone, of the 700 staff and students, roughly 75 have tested positive for H1N1.
I don't doubt for a moment that this flu is more dangerous than the typical seasonal flu, but at the same time, I don't believe that it's as dangerous as the media - and yes, the CDC - would have us believe. When I see numbers - hard statistics - that show me exactly how many "healthy" people have succumbed to this flu compared to the "regular" flu, I may change my mind. However, until then, it's all just anecdotal.
Dont be an idiot. You think they were exposed? Dont be stupid. Especially since one of your kids, the one with diabetes is in the highest risk group!
So your answer is to wait to see how many more healthy people actually die from this. :rolleyes:
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 09:28:10 PM
I am going to be brutally honest with you. You dont have a medical degree and you are self diagnosing what is adequate health care for your kids. Give your head a shake. Being exposed to the virus is not the same as having had the virus. That point was being made clear in all our media today. If your kids have not actually had this strain of influenza get them vaccinated!
Sorry, I wasn't clear when I said that the kids were exposed. Two have had it. I had the flu, as well, at a time when the Public Health department said that the only flu in the area was H1N1, so if you have flu-like symptoms, assume it's H1N1. The bug has been throughout the house. I'm not talking about "exposed" as in around town. I mean they've been as thoroughly exposed to it as they would be by a vaccine.
Or are you now going to argue that just because they've had it doesn't mean they don't need the vaccine?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 09:32:47 PM
Dont be an idiot. You think they were exposed? Dont be stupid. Especially since one of your kids, the one with diabetes is in the highest risk group!
So your answer is to wait to see how many more healthy people actually die from this. :rolleyes:
How about you listen first, eh? The one with diabetes has HAD it. Is he still in the highest risk group? No, because if you've HAD the disease it's better than the vaccine. Why on earth would I get them vaccinated now?
Yes, healthy people die from this, just as they do from lots of other diseases. But until I see hard numbers, I'm simply not going to believe that just because a kid in the news died of it means that there's a significantly greater risk than the seasonal flu. As yet, no one can provide that. Believe me, I've looked.
And as for my family, it's all moot. We got it before the vaccine was even made available... two months before. *shrugs*
Meri, I did read. You said probably. That is just silly.
Here is a post from a doctor you will find interesting. It is posted on the Globe and Mail website to combat the kind of myths you are talking about.
QuoteQ: Myself and two of my children have already had the flu this season (we're in Vancouver and our school has been hit hard). We don't know for sure if it was H1N1, but it likely was. Do we still need to be vacinated?
A: Eventhough we had a peak of flu last spring going into the summer, the reality is that the majority of people who had symptoms during that time did not have H1N1 - there were other viruses circulating in the community at that time. Certainly if you had a positive test for H1N1 I don't think you need to run out and get vaccinated, but otherwise, the odds are you didn't have H1N1.
Here is the link to the rest of the interview.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-swine-flu/h1n1-myth-busters/article1340101/
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:38:57 PM
And as for my family, it's all moot. We got it before the vaccine was even made available... two months before. *shrugs*
I repeat. DO NOT ASSUME YOU HAD H1N1 JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU HAD THE FLU!
If H1N1 was not confirmed then get vaccinated.
So now who's playing doctor?
In our town, the hospitals and public health departments told all of the schools that the only flu going around throughout the months of August and September was H1N1. There were NO OTHER FLUS in the area. In mid-September, they stopped testing anyone for H1N1 for that reason, stating that if someone has the flu, it is H1N1. They then re-iterated the symptoms and sent out a sheet with the differences between seasonal allergies, a cold, and the flu. My family had a very obvious case of the flu.
Our area has been hit very hard by H1N1, as I've said. I don't really care what someone in the Globe said somewhere else entirely. I'm telling you what the doctors and hospitals in our area who have been dealing with this every day for the past few months are telling everyone here. It isn't being stupid or playing doctor to actually listen to them and heed their advice. It is, so you said a few posts ago, stupid to go against what the doctors are saying.
Now, that being said, if my family hadn't already been hit, Jeremy would have gotten the vaccine, but I doubt I would have vaccinated anyone else.
I will say it again, I don't believe that this flu is any more of a danger to the rest of my kids than any other. I think the media is out of control on it, I think the numbers are overblown, and until I see something that proves otherwise, I will continue to think so.
Ok, so now you are changing your answer from "probably had it" to definitely had it. For your sake I hope you are right.
QuoteI will say it again, I don't believe that this flu is any more of a danger to the rest of my kids than any other. I think the media is out of control on it, I think the numbers are overblown, and until I see something that proves otherwise, I will continue to think so.
Hopefully you and yours wont be one of the statistics that proves the experts were right about this.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2009, 09:58:24 PM
Ok, so now you are changing your answer from "probably had it" to definitely had it. For your sake I hope you are right.
QuoteI will say it again, I don't believe that this flu is any more of a danger to the rest of my kids than any other. I think the media is out of control on it, I think the numbers are overblown, and until I see something that proves otherwise, I will continue to think so.
Hopefully you and yours wont be one of the statistics that proves the experts were right about this.
I said "probably" because no one tested positive for it in a lab. I also said "probably" because that's what I meant: all probability points to Jeremy, Carter and myself having already had H1N1. Given the information at hand, the logical conclusion is that we've had it, everyone in the house has been directly exposed, and there is no point to getting the vaccine. In addition, despite what BB tried to imply, the vaccination is in short supply around here at the moment. My liaison at the PHD has pretty much said that he doesn't know if there will be enough to vaccine all of the kids in the schools. (I'm the health secretary where I work, which means I'm the one that's been tracking the illnesses and symptoms. Despite what you may think, I actually do know what I'm talking about as it refers to our community.)
I'm sorry that this illness has you so frightened. I'm sorry that the media is leading with every death from H1N1, especially the children. What they aren't saying, though, is how this directly compares to seasonal flus. As of now, according to the PHD, the state of Illinois - one of the hardest hit with H1N1 in the country in terms of confirmed and uncomfirmed cases - has not had an increase in the number of deaths due to flu from last year or the year before that. We are on par with previous years as of the month of September. What HAS increased, at least in Champaign County, is the number of doctor visits due to the flu, which makes sense given the way the media has pushed this out there. The number of hospitalizations at the two local hospitals, however, has not increased, and so far *knock wood* we've had no deaths.
Don't think I'm underestimating the danger. The kids with H1N1 are sicker than with the seasonal flu. There are more cases clustered closer together, and it's spreading faster than normal. H1N1 is quite obviously more dangerous than what we normally deal with.
What I question is if it's as dangerous as the media is making it out to be.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:52:33 PM
So now who's playing doctor?
In our town, the hospitals and public health departments told all of the schools that the only flu going around throughout the months of August and September was H1N1. There were NO OTHER FLUS in the area.
Wow, that is pretty incredible.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 10:20:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2009, 10:18:09 PM
Wow, that is pretty incredible.
How so?
Just never heard of anything like that - how could they know such a thing? I guess they must have tested every single person, or some great majority, of the people who had the flu, so they could tell it was all H1N1.
How long did it take for your kids test results for H1N1 to come back? I've heard differing reports about how long it takes.
Are the doctors in your area telling everyone to not bother with the H1N1 shot then, since it has already gone through, so no worries?
Both Jake and Melanie are scheduled for H1N1 shots this Saturday.
They aren't happy about it either.
I imagine next drill wekend I'll be stuck with some kind of flu vaccine.
The CDC did have a chart, and I'll see if I can find it tomorrow, that basically showed that every tested flu for a while was h1n1.
Quote from: ulmont on October 27, 2009, 10:47:16 PM
The CDC did have a chart, and I'll see if I can find it tomorrow, that basically showed that every tested flu for a while was h1n1.
I guess that does make some sense, since the H1N1 was going around outside the normal flu season.
Still, I am surprised the advice from doctors is to skip the vaccine, even for those people who did not catch it the first time around.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2009, 10:25:07 PM
Just never heard of anything like that - how could they know such a thing? I guess they must have tested every single person, or some great majority, of the people who had the flu, so they could tell it was all H1N1.
How long did it take for your kids test results for H1N1 to come back? I've heard differing reports about how long it takes.
Are the doctors in your area telling everyone to not bother with the H1N1 shot then, since it has already gone through, so no worries?
Starting in August, a flu moved through the schools. The first several dozen cases were all encouraged to get tested for H1N1. All flu cases came back positive for H1N1 and no other strains. (Not all "flus" were actually flus, I should add. Seasonal allergies and colds were also around.) As the flu continued on - and more and more people came down with it - the doctors' offices, EDs, and Public Health were overwhelmed. At some point in the beginning of September, they ran out of the strips to test everyone, so they sent out a letter to the schools telling everyone that the only flu in the area was H1N1, so it should be assumed that if you have the flu, that's what it is. With this letter, they included a card that explained the difference in symptoms between a cold, seasonal allergies, a seasonal flu, and H1N1.
It was about this time that Carter and Jeremy got sick. They had every symptom of H1N1, a few of the seasonal flu, and their usual seasonal allergy problems, including asthma issues. I took them to the doctor, who said yes, probably H1N1 with some seasonal allergies, gave them some meds for the asthma and some anti-viral spray for the flu, and sent us all home. He, like all of the other doctors in the area, had run out of the test strips. I came down with it three days later. No one else in the house has had the same aches, pains, and chills, but the other two kids have had low-grade fevers off and on for the past few weeks.
The Public Health Department is encouraging all those who did not test positive for H1N1 on the strips to get the vaccine, to be on the safe side. When I spoke with the PHD school liaison, I told him that I didn't really think we needed it and why. He agreed that most likely, we didn't, but it wouldn't hurt to get the vaccine. Then I asked if there were enough vaccinations with the first go-round. He said that to be honest, he didn't think there would be, then said that since he already knows my opinion on vaccines anyway (that not all vaccines are necessary), he didn't figure I'd be getting them. I told him probably not.
I don't know what is going on in other parts of the world, but in our little area, this is what's happening. More than 10% of our staff and students have been out since the third week of school - roughly 70-80 people every day for two months - some kids out for as long as three weeks while they fight off the extreme weakness and high fever that seems to be the biggest indicator that it's H1N1 over seasonal flus.
This flu is hitting fast and hard, but around here, it hasn't been any more dangerous than any other flu. The symptoms are more profound, but only one of our kids have been hospitalized, and she had a compromised immune system. Maybe we're just lucky, but it seems to me more likely that, like the Bird Flu, this is being blown way out of proportion by the media.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2009, 10:49:51 PM
I guess that does make some sense, since the H1N1 was going around outside the normal flu season.
Still, I am surprised the advice from doctors is to skip the vaccine, even for those people who did not catch it the first time around.
It depends on the doctor. Some say, "Eh, it doesn't hurt, might help, may as well get it even if you've already had the flu." Others say, "It doesn't help, you're already protected, don't bother."
I tend to side with the "don't get it" faction than the other.
But what does your doctor(s) say?
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2009, 10:32:02 PM
Both Jake and Melanie are scheduled for H1N1 shots this Saturday.
They aren't happy about it either.
When are you scheduled for your overreacting parent shot?
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2009, 10:55:03 PM
But what does your doctor(s) say?
The pediatrician encourages it because he doesn't see the point in anyone getting any illnesses if they can be prevented by a shot. If there were a shot for a stubbed toe, he'd encourage it. *shrugs*
At the same time, he agreed that most likely it's not necessary, even for Jeremy. What he is strongly suggesting for with Jeremy, though, is the seasonal flu shot, since those flus haven't shown up yet and Jeremy may have a harder time of it due to the diabetes and asthma combination. I will most likely take him in for that once they're available next week.
He suggested it for the other kids, too, but that's not going to happen. I strongly disagree with flu shots for people who do not need it, i.e. those with normal immune systems.
What with the government putting tracking chips in them and all.
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 27, 2009, 10:43:08 PM
I imagine next drill wekend I'll be stuck with some kind of flu vaccine.
at least that is what they will tell you it is for :tinfoil:
Absolutely. Got the flu vaccine each year for the last three years, will certainly take that one.
My girlfriend having only one kidney and being immunodepressed, I have the excuse to go get the flu shot next week. :lol:
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
At the same time, he agreed that most likely it's not necessary, even for Jeremy. What he is strongly suggesting for with Jeremy, though, is the seasonal flu shot, since those flus haven't shown up yet and Jeremy may have a harder time of it due to the diabetes and asthma combination. I will most likely take him in for that once they're available next week.
He suggested it for the other kids, too, but that's not going to happen. I strongly disagree with flu shots for people who do not need it, i.e. those with normal immune systems.
WTF? :tinfoil:
A perfectly healthy 13-year old boy, with no known medical complications, died of the h1n1 flu yesterday in Ontario. He got the flu during a hockey tournament,
and was ill only for 48 hours before dying. 48 hours. Imagine what risk a child with asthma and diabetes can encounter catching that shit. These are among the first in line to get the vaccine, for obvious reasons!
Kids are vulnerable to all flu strains, but especially h1n1 because they have no immunity and their immune system is still in developement. In fact, younger people, i.e. children and teenagers, are one of the main groups more likely to develop more severe complications from h1n1 infection, because that the flu spreads very easily in schools.
Besides shielding oneself, the whole point in getting the vaccine even if you do not need it is to prevent transmitting to others, and thus help create herd immunity: children, old people, the diseased, other vulnerable people. And this vaccine is very efficient, according to all testing reports.
And nothing stops you for giving both h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccines to your children. In Canada the only advice is to wait 21 days between the two shots to allow the h1n1 antigen full time to provoke a sufficient immune response in the receiver, which takes between 7 to 14, and sometimes all the way up to 21 days.
Quote from: Drakken on October 27, 2009, 11:44:58 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
At the same time, he agreed that most likely it's not necessary, even for Jeremy. What he is strongly suggesting for with Jeremy, though, is the seasonal flu shot, since those flus haven't shown up yet and Jeremy may have a harder time of it due to the diabetes and asthma combination. I will most likely take him in for that once they're available next week.
He suggested it for the other kids, too, but that's not going to happen. I strongly disagree with flu shots for people who do not need it, i.e. those with normal immune systems.
WTF? :tinfoil:
A perfectly healthy 13-year old boy, with no known medical complications, died of the h1n1 flu yesterday in Ontario. He got the flu during a hockey tournament, and was ill only for 48 hours before dying. 48 hours. Imagine what risk a child with asthma and diabetes can encounter catching that shit. These are among the first in line to get the vaccine, for obvious reasons!
Kids are vulnerable to all flu strains, but especially h1n1 because they have no immunity and their immune system is still in developement. In fact, younger people, i.e. children and teenagers, are one of the main groups more likely to develop more severe complications from h1n1 infection, because that the flu spreads very easily in schools.
Besides shielding oneself, the whole point in getting the vaccine even if you do not need it is to prevent transmitting to others, and thus help create herd immunity: children, old people, the diseased, other vulnerable people. And this vaccine is very efficient, according to all testing reports.
And nothing stops you for giving both h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccines to your children. In Canada the only advice is to wait 21 days between the two shots to allow the h1n1 antigen full time to provoke an immune response in the receiver.
So, when did you graduate medical school?
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
He suggested it for the other kids, too, but that's not going to happen. I strongly disagree with flu shots for people who do not need it, i.e. those with normal immune systems.
:tinfoil:
Look, if your doctor says you don't need the flu shot, then fine. But if he recommends it, I think you're foolish not to get it.
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 12:02:05 AM
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
He suggested it for the other kids, too, but that's not going to happen. I strongly disagree with flu shots for people who do not need it, i.e. those with normal immune systems.
:tinfoil:
Look, if your doctor says you don't need the flu shot, then fine. But if he recommends it, I think you're foolish not to get it.
If she wants her child to die, its her business. I'll have my :nelson: waiting.
I haven't decided/ and strangely there's no option in the poll for that. I want to discuss it with my doctor first. odds are she'll say yes, due to my high blood pressure. but I'm waiting til then (sometime in the next couple weeks)
Quote from: viper37 on October 27, 2009, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 27, 2009, 10:01:09 AM
Viper, The H1N1 vac isn't exactly the same as the seasonal.
The H1N1 has an additional "booster" that triggers the immune system. For anyone with autoimmune symptoms like me or CK that should be considered before accepting :)
V
I don't know how it's called in english, but the "booster" you are referring too his already present in the seasonal flu vaccine distributed in Europe to about 45 million people without problems.
Of course if you have health problems you shouldn't rush to get any vaccine without speaking to your doctor. I'm assuming people are healthy without chronical disease, and without allergies to eggs.
There are vaccines without the "booster" for pregnant women, and some other people.
I have actually no technical knowledge on either flu, I was refering one of Denmark's leading doctors in the MS field,
According to his replies, MS patients are ordinarily recommended seasonal flu vaccine, because the effects of ordinary flu is a heigthened risk of a MS attack due to the activity of the immune system.
However, the H1N1 vaccine is containing a booster NOT present in ordinary seasonal flu vacine, and as such that booster may trigger the immune system in a different way than the flu would, and as such heighten the risk of an MS attack.
Thus, his recommendation is NOT to get the H1N1, DO get the seasonal one IF you are in a stable MS state, and DO get the H1N1 IF you, due to MS or otherwise, fall into the ordinary H1N1 risk groups (respiratory, fat, immobility).
I have no idea if the he is right, but i do trust that he should know best. I've heard on other issues that the seasonal vaccine here in DEN at least do not contain boosters. (possibly it is not the SAME kind of booster?)
V
I've heard of regular flu shots causing exacerbations as well (although ms patients can be susceptible to wild rumor). I also have had the flu and have had a temporary exacerbation. I'm going to wait and see. I saw my neurologist a few weeks ago and he never mentioned it and I forgot to ask. I guess I'll just avoid people like I usually do.
Quote from: Drakken on October 27, 2009, 11:38:18 PM
Absolutely. Got the flu vaccine each year for the last three years, will certainly take that one.
My girlfriend having only one kidney and being immunodepressed, I have the excuse to go get the flu shot next week. :lol:
They won't believe you! :lol:
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
He suggested it for the other kids, too, but that's not going to happen. I strongly disagree with flu shots for people who do not need it, i.e. those with normal immune systems.
So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?
Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 04:12:00 AM
Quote from: viper37 on October 27, 2009, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 27, 2009, 10:01:09 AM
Viper, The H1N1 vac isn't exactly the same as the seasonal.
The H1N1 has an additional "booster" that triggers the immune system. For anyone with autoimmune symptoms like me or CK that should be considered before accepting :)
V
I don't know how it's called in english, but the "booster" you are referring too his already present in the seasonal flu vaccine distributed in Europe to about 45 million people without problems.
Of course if you have health problems you shouldn't rush to get any vaccine without speaking to your doctor. I'm assuming people are healthy without chronical disease, and without allergies to eggs.
There are vaccines without the "booster" for pregnant women, and some other people.
I have actually no technical knowledge on either flu, I was refering one of Denmark's leading doctors in the MS field,
According to his replies, MS patients are ordinarily recommended seasonal flu vaccine, because the effects of ordinary flu is a heigthened risk of a MS attack due to the activity of the immune system.
However, the H1N1 vaccine is containing a booster NOT present in ordinary seasonal flu vacine, and as such that booster may trigger the immune system in a different way than the flu would, and as such heighten the risk of an MS attack.
The H1N1 flu vaccine does not contain any new adjuvant (aka your booster). Squalene is used in seasonal flu vaccines in Europe since 1997, and is still used today.
Both flu vaccines are the same, nothing more, nothing less. The only thing different is the antigen (the dead virus that has ceased to be and is gone to meet its maker) used.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 28, 2009, 07:00:40 AM
Quote from: Drakken on October 27, 2009, 11:38:18 PM
Absolutely. Got the flu vaccine each year for the last three years, will certainly take that one.
My girlfriend having only one kidney and being immunodepressed, I have the excuse to go get the flu shot next week. :lol:
They won't believe you! :lol:
She'll be with me, we get vaccinated together. Besides, they do no verification. No one is returned home. :contract:
Just to be sure, though, I'll give a call to the CLSC.
In any case, I'll use my hated mother for once. She is a chain smoker and has emphysema. :lol:
Quote from: ulmont on October 27, 2009, 10:47:16 PM
The CDC did have a chart, and I'll see if I can find it tomorrow, that basically showed that every tested flu for a while was h1n1.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2009-2010/images/image411.gif from
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
You can see that where they subtyped A influenza, it's H1N1, and that basically nothing else is popping up (the only other significant entry is A (subtyping not performed)).
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 08:23:51 AM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 04:12:00 AM
Quote from: viper37 on October 27, 2009, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 27, 2009, 10:01:09 AM
Viper, The H1N1 vac isn't exactly the same as the seasonal.
The H1N1 has an additional "booster" that triggers the immune system. For anyone with autoimmune symptoms like me or CK that should be considered before accepting :)
V
I don't know how it's called in english, but the "booster" you are referring too his already present in the seasonal flu vaccine distributed in Europe to about 45 million people without problems.
Of course if you have health problems you shouldn't rush to get any vaccine without speaking to your doctor. I'm assuming people are healthy without chronical disease, and without allergies to eggs.
There are vaccines without the "booster" for pregnant women, and some other people.
I have actually no technical knowledge on either flu, I was refering one of Denmark's leading doctors in the MS field,
According to his replies, MS patients are ordinarily recommended seasonal flu vaccine, because the effects of ordinary flu is a heigthened risk of a MS attack due to the activity of the immune system.
However, the H1N1 vaccine is containing a booster NOT present in ordinary seasonal flu vacine, and as such that booster may trigger the immune system in a different way than the flu would, and as such heighten the risk of an MS attack.
The H1N1 flu vaccine does not contain any new adjuvant (aka your booster). Squalene is used in seasonal flu vaccines in Europe since 1997, and is still used today.
Both flu vaccines are the same, nothing more, nothing less. The only thing different is the antigen (the dead virus that has ceased to be and is gone to meet its maker) used.
Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.
So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.
V
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2009, 10:55:03 PM
But what does your doctor(s) say?
The pediatrician encourages it because he doesn't see the point in anyone getting any illnesses if they can be prevented by a shot. If there were a shot for a stubbed toe, he'd encourage it. *shrugs*
you are comparing H1N1 to getting a stubbed toe?
Nobody dies from a stubbed toe Meri - people do in fact die from H1N1.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Why anyone would forgo getting a shot to prevent a potentially life threatening disease is rather beyond me, but I guess we live in a free country, so you can evaluate the risks to your family as you see fit.
Hell, even absent the fact that it can kill you, why even run the risk of a serious illness if it can be avoided?
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 09:00:45 AM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Why anyone would forgo getting a shot to prevent a potentially life threatening disease is rather beyond me, but I guess we live in a free country, so you can evaluate the risks to your family as you see fit.
Hell, even absent the fact that it can kill you, why even run the risk of a serious illness if it can be avoided?
I agree with Berkut on tis one.
The only exception I can find is situations like mine where there is high uncertainty about what effects the vaccine may have long term on my chronical disease :)
V
Quote from: Drakken on October 27, 2009, 11:44:58 PM
And nothing stops you for giving both h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccines to your children. In Canada the only advice is to wait 21 days between the two shots to allow the h1n1 antigen full time to provoke a sufficient immune response in the receiver, which takes between 7 to 14, and sometimes all the way up to 21 days.
At the vaccination clinic here in Whitehorse they're jabbing everyone with both almost simultaneously. :huh:
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: Drakken on October 27, 2009, 11:44:58 PM
And nothing stops you for giving both h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccines to your children. In Canada the only advice is to wait 21 days between the two shots to allow the h1n1 antigen full time to provoke a sufficient immune response in the receiver, which takes between 7 to 14, and sometimes all the way up to 21 days.
At the vaccination clinic here in Whitehorse they're jabbing everyone with both almost simultaneously. :huh:
It's different for Indians.
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2009, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: Drakken on October 27, 2009, 11:44:58 PM
And nothing stops you for giving both h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccines to your children. In Canada the only advice is to wait 21 days between the two shots to allow the h1n1 antigen full time to provoke a sufficient immune response in the receiver, which takes between 7 to 14, and sometimes all the way up to 21 days.
At the vaccination clinic here in Whitehorse they're jabbing everyone with both almost simultaneously. :huh:
Yeah, they just want to get rid of you.. why wait 21 days for the second poison shot? :D
V
It's different for Indians.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:07:25 PM
And how many have died of H1N1? How many were "healthy"?
27 deaths as of last April.
None since the 2nd outbreak.
However, about a dozen people (no more precisions) are now under intensive care due to H1N1.
None have died yet. They may all survive, they may all die, half of them may survive, we don't know yet.
What we know, is that so far in Canada, since the 2nd outbreak, 3 healthy young people have died form the H1N1 strain of influenza. Last one is a 13 year old hockey player.
And that did scare me.
Not because I'm afraid to die, I don't care. I'm old enough, I've seen everything I really wanted to see in life. But I'm afraid to be a carrier and transmit the disease to someone else around me who could get really sick. And also, by getting the vaccine, I reduce the overall chances of seeing this virus mutate.
Got my wife and the kids the nasal spray. I didn't get one, as I wasn't in the group allowed to have one.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:30:26 PM
When I see numbers - hard statistics - that show me exactly how many "healthy" people have succumbed to this flu compared to the "regular" flu, I may change my mind. However, until then, it's all just anecdotal.
I'm sorry, but that's silly.
By then, it will be too late.
Getting the vaccine will likely prevent such stats.
Even if it doesn't kill, even if it doesn't leave you with any problems, even if it's just a big cold you or your kids end up getting, why on earth would you risk being sick when only a damn vaccine will prevent all this??
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:38:57 PM
No, because if you've HAD the disease it's better than the vaccine.
No, it's not better than the vaccine. It's the same thing, except you were sick, if you had the disease.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 28, 2009, 02:35:39 PM
Got my wife and the kids the nasal spray. I didn't get one, as I wasn't in the group allowed to have one.
I'm glad to have met you. We will sing songs in your honor, commenting your brave fight against the overwhelming forces of the H1N1! :D
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 08:23:51 AM
The H1N1 flu vaccine does not contain any new adjuvant (aka your booster). Squalene is used in seasonal flu vaccines in Europe since 1997, and is still used today.
So, the word is the same in english and french, then...
Nice.
The adjuvant is called MF59. Anyone can search on the WHO site for details of its safety.
I've never had a flu shot that I recall (likely had them when young).
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2009, 02:54:09 PM
I've never had a flu shot that I recall (likely had them when young).
Or drunk.
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 08:52:56 AM
Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.
So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.
V
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html
Quote
Is there squalene in vaccines?
* Since 1997, an influenza vaccine (FLUAD, Chiron) which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose, has been approved in health agencies in several European countries. Squalene is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic.
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2009, 02:54:09 PM
I've never had a flu shot that I recall (likely had them when young).
I think it's a fairly recent vaccine.
So, either you are still young, or you never got it :D
Quote from: viper37 on October 28, 2009, 02:57:41 PM
I think it's a fairly recent vaccine.
So, either you are still young, or you never got it :D
I had no idea. Then it is safe to say that I've never had one.
Actually that's not true. They've had different influenza vaccines for years. I remember one of my relatives saying they got sick in the 70s with its swine flu scare.
Quote from: viper37 on October 28, 2009, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 08:52:56 AM
Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.
So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.
V
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html
Quote
Is there squalene in vaccines?
* Since 1997, an influenza vaccine (FLUAD, Chiron) which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose, has been approved in health agencies in several European countries. Squalene is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic.
But not in all, not in denmark and apparently not in Germany, hence the differnt advice from the docs re the seasonal and the H1N1
V
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 03:36:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 28, 2009, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 08:52:56 AM
Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.
So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.
V
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html
Quote
Is there squalene in vaccines?
* Since 1997, an influenza vaccine (FLUAD, Chiron) which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose, has been approved in health agencies in several European countries. Squalene is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic.
But not in all, not in denmark and apparently not in Germany, hence the differnt advice from the docs re the seasonal and the H1N1
V
Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.
And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.
Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.
I would give meri the gears over not getting vaccinated, but not Valde, who has clearly talked with his doctors and is following their advice.
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 12:02:05 AM
:tinfoil:
Look, if your doctor says you don't need the flu shot, then fine. But if he recommends it, I think you're foolish not to get it.
None of us "need" the flu shot, except Jeremy. He will likely get it. He recommends it to prevent the rest of us from getting sick, but it's not going to compromise us if we do come down with it.
It's a convenience thing.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:10:12 PM
but it's not going to compromise us if we do come down with it.
It's a convenience thing.
Right. You are just so much more genetically superior to the other completely healthy people that have been killed by this. It only happens to other people and other people's kids.
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 08:03:04 AM
So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?
Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.
*shrugs*
They don't need it. It's a convenience, not a necessity, just like the chickenpox vaccine. If you look at the numbers on the report that I posted, the death rate due to pneumonia and flu hasn't dropped at all since the wide-spread use of flu shots came into vogue in the early 1990s. It keeps people from staying home sick from work or school, but hasn't done squat to prevent deaths.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2009, 04:13:51 PM
Right. You are just so much more genetically superior to the other completely healthy people that have been killed by this. It only happens to other people and other people's kids.
I love when you guys comment without reading.
I was talking about the regular seasonal flu, not H1N1.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 08:03:04 AM
So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?
Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.
*shrugs*
They don't need it. It's a convenience, not a necessity, just like the chickenpox vaccine. If you look at the numbers on the report that I posted, the death rate due to pneumonia and flu hasn't dropped at all since the wide-spread use of flu shots came into vogue in the early 1990s. It keeps people from staying home sick from work or school, but hasn't done squat to prevent deaths.
Really? It hasn't "done squat" to prevent deaths?
Have you conducted a full epidemiological survey to determine the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and attempted to control for other variables such as long lifespans and an increasingly elderly population? Or have you just looked at a couple of charts and called it a day?
The experts, the ones that have done such surveys, all recommend getting the vaccine.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 08:03:04 AM
So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?
Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.
*shrugs*
They don't need it. It's a convenience, not a necessity, just like the chickenpox vaccine. If you look at the numbers on the report that I posted, the death rate due to pneumonia and flu hasn't dropped at all since the wide-spread use of flu shots came into vogue in the early 1990s. It keeps people from staying home sick from work or school, but hasn't done squat to prevent deaths.
Actually, you don't know if the death rate has dropped, because the deaths reported due to flu are not directly counted, but inferred from data, since most states do not report deaths from flu.
According to the CDC, the variance is rather large from year to year - 17,000 to 52,000 deaths.
How you can argue that it does not prevent deaths from flu when it prevents people from getting the flu is simply beyond me. Where are you getting this information?
"hasn't done squat to prevent deaths" that is a pretty bold claim - do you have anything to back it up?
Quote from: viper37 link=topic=2657.msg133672#msg133672
27 deaths as of last April.
None since the 2nd outbreak.
However, about a dozen people (no more precisions) are now under intensive care due to H1N1.
None have died yet. They may all survive, they may all die, half of them may survive, we don't know yet.
How many were healthy and how many were compromised? I've seen the number of deaths in Illinois and the US, too, but there's no break down, or anything that compares it to the regular flu. That's what I'm looking for.
Quote
And also, by getting the vaccine, I reduce the overall chances of seeing this virus mutate.
Is there something out there a scientific study that shows that by vaccinating people you alleviate the chance of the virus mutating? I've never heard that about the flu. I'd be interested to see this, if it's true.
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:05:23 PM
Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.
And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.
Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.
You don't read very well do you? :)
First of, it isn't just Denmark, but apparently Germany too, I know plenty of dutch who go to germany for their vaccines to avoid the in many ways unnecesary booster. Call it caution on the side of safety, many North European health agenices are more cautius on vaccines than the US.
That aside I didn't come down on either side of the adjetive, but I DO have small speciel gene defect (MS) that makes me be very wary of ANY boost to my immune system, hence the original post as to why I don't rush to the vaccine and why I have been cautioned to conside NOT getting it.
So, if you read what I write there is indeed reason to avoid the booster, safe or not.
V
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 04:26:21 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:05:23 PM
Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.
And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.
Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.
You don't read very well do you? :)
First of, it isn't just Denmark, but apparently Germany too, I know plenty of dutch who go to germany for their vaccines to avoid the in many ways unnecesary booster. Call it caution on the side of safety, many North European health agenices are more cautius on vaccines than the US.
That aside I didn't come down on either side of the adjetive, but I DO have small speciel gene defect (MS) that makes me be very wary of ANY boost to my immune system, hence the original post as to why I don't rush to the vaccine and why I have been cautioned to conside NOT getting it.
So, if you read what I write there is indeed reason to avoid the booster, safe or not.
V
But because of your problem you may certainly request the vaccine without adjuvant. :)
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 04:06:48 PM
I would give meri the gears over not getting vaccinated, but not Valde, who has clearly talked with his doctors and is following their advice.
Okay? :unsure:
As I've said, I've done plenty of research on vaccines and am not entering this blindly. There are physicians whom I agree with, and those I do not, but it is a rare physician that I accept as the ultimate authority on anything. My experience has taught me that that can cost your life. I do my own research, talk to physicians, and then make up my own mind.
Given that so few of you seem to have done any research, I find it slightly amusing that you're quick to judge how stupid I am. Believe it or not, physicians aren't infallible, even en masse.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:26:09 PM
Is there something out there a scientific study that shows that by vaccinating people you alleviate the chance of the virus mutating? I've never heard that about the flu. I'd be interested to see this, if it's true.
All flu strains mutate. It's inescapable. However, there is "mutating" and "recombining", which is the strain taking DNA information from another strain to recombine and mutate itself in a new whole strain. This is what the current h1n1 is the result of, a mix of different flu strains from swine, avian, and human flu. And for this to happen, two ore more different flu strains is needed to be present and infect the same vessel.
By taking the vaccine, you decrease the chances of someone catching two flu in the same time, and thus allow less occasions for a flu strain to recombine and create a new strain which can potentially be more virulent AND transmissible from human to human.
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 04:23:42 PM
Really? It hasn't "done squat" to prevent deaths?
Have you conducted a full epidemiological survey to determine the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and attempted to control for other variables such as long lifespans and an increasingly elderly population? Or have you just looked at a couple of charts and called it a day?
The experts, the ones that have done such surveys, all recommend getting the vaccine.
How about you look at what I posted before you decide that it's bunk?
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 04:26:21 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:05:23 PM
Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.
And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.
Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.
You don't read very well do you? :)
First of, it isn't just Denmark, but apparently Germany too, I know plenty of dutch who go to germany for their vaccines to avoid the in many ways unnecesary booster. Call it caution on the side of safety, many North European health agenices are more cautius on vaccines than the US.
That aside I didn't come down on either side of the adjetive, but I DO have small speciel gene defect (MS) that makes me be very wary of ANY boost to my immune system, hence the original post as to why I don't rush to the vaccine and why I have been cautioned to conside NOT getting it.
So, if you read what I write there is indeed reason to avoid the booster, safe or not.
V
But because of your problem you may certainly request the vaccine without adjuvant. :)
Apparently not, at least not for now.
Vaccines of any sort is always and iffy thing with MS, the recommendation of the seasonal shot (no adjetives) is that it is better than actually getting sick with virus, but otoh a mild flu is better than a vaccine.. apparently.... at least as long as your MS is stable and you are not having disabilites due to the MS that would agreviate the flu attack (immobility, affects to respiratory etc)
V
/eats popcorn
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 04:23:42 PM
Really? It hasn't "done squat" to prevent deaths?
Have you conducted a full epidemiological survey to determine the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and attempted to control for other variables such as long lifespans and an increasingly elderly population? Or have you just looked at a couple of charts and called it a day?
The experts, the ones that have done such surveys, all recommend getting the vaccine.
How about you look at what I posted before you decide that it's bunk?
What should I be looking at?
I went over most of the thread, and just found you posting that you don't like vaccines.
I especially liked this quote:
QuoteThe Public Health Department is encouraging all those who did not test positive for H1N1 on the strips to get the vaccine, to be on the safe side. When I spoke with the PHD school liaison, I told him that I didn't really think we needed it and why. He agreed that most likely, we didn't, but it wouldn't hurt to get the vaccine. Then I asked if there were enough vaccinations with the first go-round. He said that to be honest, he didn't think there would be, then said that since he already knows my opinion on vaccines anyway (that not all vaccines are necessary), he didn't figure I'd be getting them. I told him probably not.
You may have talked with people, but you made it quite clear up front what your opinion was, and decided to ignore the advice you were receiving.
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2009, 04:25:38 PM
Actually, you don't know if the death rate has dropped, because the deaths reported due to flu are not directly counted, but inferred from data, since most states do not report deaths from flu.
According to the CDC, the variance is rather large from year to year - 17,000 to 52,000 deaths.
How you can argue that it does not prevent deaths from flu when it prevents people from getting the flu is simply beyond me. Where are you getting this information?
"hasn't done squat to prevent deaths" that is a pretty bold claim - do you have anything to back it up?
I don't doubt for a second that on a case-by-case basis the flu shots have had an impact for those with compromised immune systems - so long as the correct strains were vaccinated for, which doesn't always happen. But the incidence rate of flu deaths hasn't gone down significantly since the 1960s, according to the report I linked to.
Overall, there hasn't been much of an impact on the general population. I would encourage my godmother to get a flu shot because she's 85 years old. I would encourage my son to get one because he's diabetic and asthmatic. But the chance of death due to the flu is incredibly minimal for those who are considered normally healthy.
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:05:56 PM
In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf)
The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.
Restated for BB's benefit.
Meri, not judging, but isn't this the rehash of the very old thread on an other child vaccine in some US school?
If I recall correctl that one ended up with everyone agreeing to disagree with your POV, and no one actually was convinced of the other's POV.
So maybe just agree to disagree?
V
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:42:40 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:05:56 PM
In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf)
The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.
Restated for BB's benefit.
The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.
The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has remained very stable during the Southern Hemisphere's flu season. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.
Quote from: Valdemar on October 28, 2009, 04:44:18 PM
Meri, not judging, but isn't this the rehash of the very old thread on an other child vaccine in some US school?
If I recall correctl that one ended up with everyone agreeing to disagree with your POV, and no one actually was convinced of the other's POV.
So maybe just agree to disagree?
V
It was the chickenpox vaccine, and you're quite right. My only intent was to make a few people actually look into it a bit. Of course, you're right, that isn't likely to happen.
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.
The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has been very stable. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.
I agree, and if we hadn't already had the disease, I would have let Jeremy get it.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.
The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has been very stable. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.
I agree, and if we hadn't already had the disease, I would have let Jeremy get it.
But if the children around him get the h1n1, they can transmit it to him through the school or the playground. And I understand he has medical complications, which puts him at a greater risk for severe complications if he catches the flu.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:20:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2009, 04:13:51 PM
Right. You are just so much more genetically superior to the other completely healthy people that have been killed by this. It only happens to other people and other people's kids.
I love when you guys comment without reading.
I was talking about the regular seasonal flu, not H1N1.
My reading ability is fine. You certainly didnt make that clear in your post. In any event my comment stands. Regulary flu shots are more then a convenience issue but you dont even think the H1N1 is necessary so the discussion seems pointless.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:42:40 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:05:56 PM
In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf)
The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.
Restated for BB's benefit.
I've looked at your post. You're drawing unwarranted conclusions.
Your link only deals with rates, and you are stating that the rate of flu deaths has not decreased. That DOES NOT MEAN the flu shot is ineffective. There are too many variables at play: how many people actually get the flu shot, people are living longer, rates of other causes of death have changed.
Now if you have access to a proper epidemiological survey that shows that the rate of fatalities in people who received the flu shot is the same as in people who did not, I'll look at it. But your link proves nothing.
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.
The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has been very stable. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.
I agree, and if we hadn't already had the disease, I would have let Jeremy get it.
But if the children around him get the h1n1, they can transmit it to him through the school or the playground. And I understand he has medical complications, which puts him at a greater risk for severe complications if he catches the flu.
And dont forget. She doesnt even know for sure if they actually got it. They got sick with flu like symptoms which she assumes is the H1N1. I take what Berkut said about being a free country and all but when people make dumb assed decision that can affect people around them, like this, I am wondering whether innoculations should be mandatory unless there is an express medical opinion that the shot should not be given.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2009, 05:00:06 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.
The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has been very stable. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.
I agree, and if we hadn't already had the disease, I would have let Jeremy get it.
But if the children around him get the h1n1, they can transmit it to him through the school or the playground. And I understand he has medical complications, which puts him at a greater risk for severe complications if he catches the flu.
And dont forget. She doesnt even know for sure if they actually got it. They got sick with flu like symptoms which she assumes is the H1N1. I take what Berkut said about being a free country and all but when people make dumb assed decision that can affect people around them, like this, I am wondering whether innoculations should be mandatory unless there is an express medical opinion that the shot should not be given.
Although I agree with you in principle, it would be much harder to sell than, say, a smallpox or some other lethal pandemic making a return. To most laymen, h1n1 flu is just another flu, and they react as if it were one when, in fact, the reason why other flu strains are only "seasonal flus" is because we have acquired immunity against them in the first place. 95% of us don't have it at all for the h1n1 (except people who have withstood the 1957 h1n1 pandemic and are stil alive today), which makes it much easily transmissible, and people tend to "forget" that or choose not to care.
Nowadays, pseudoskeptical people, legitimate doubters, and cuckoos with silly beliefs alike can all find "credible information" supporting their findings with a wisk of a finger through the internet. In fact, I'd say that this is one of the first time since the Scopes Monkey Trial that pseudoscience has totally won the popular "hearts and minds" battle against science, with potentially deadly consequences for our societies.
If the same vaccine had been available in 1918, people would have sold their mother to have one without a doubt. Man, doctors even went as far as to inject plasma coming from people ill from the Spanish flu as a sort of proto-vaccine to innoculate healthy patients.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 28, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
/eats popcorn
:lol: Mass hysteria would be even funnier if it wasn't so deadly.
Meri, doing some quick internet research on proper studies on the effectiveness of flu vaccines actually turned up this interesting article in Yi's favourite magazine, The Atlantic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1
Now it spends much more time focusing in on the very small minority who think flu vaccines are ineffective, but all-in-all it is a good overview on the difficulties of measuring efficacy.
The most interesting part I found was on page 2:
Quote"Tom Jefferson has taken a lot of heat just for saying, 'Here's the evidence: it's not very good,'" says Majumdar. "The reaction has been so dogmatic and even hysterical that you'd think he was advocating stealing babies." Yet while other flu researchers may not like what Jefferson has to say, they cannot ignore the fact that he knows the flu-vaccine literature better than anyone else on the planet. He leads an international team of researchers who have combed through hundreds of flu-vaccine studies. The vast majority of the studies were deeply flawed, says Jefferson. "Rubbish is not a scientific term, but I think it's the term that applies." Only four studies were properly designed to pin down the effectiveness of flu vaccine, he says, and two of those showed that it might be effective in certain groups of patients, such as school-age children with no underlying health issues like asthma. The other two showed equivocal results or no benefit.
Why is this part interesting? The biggest critic of current research says that of 4 properly conducted studies, 2 show no result, and 2 show a benefit in children.
At worst the vaccine is useless, at best it will help your kids. You have nothing to lose, and lots to gain.
Barrister, I have lots of things to state on this Atlantic article, but sadly I don't have the time.
Let's say that Tom Jefferson has the reputation of having a VERY... binary vision of what should constitute vaccine efficiency, to the point that people have coined the term "methodolatry" to comment his abrasive style and very all-or-nothing approach on vaccination.
So much in fact that he has become among infectiologists akind to what Duesberg is to the HIV/AIDS science community - a raving lunatic without any credibility. To Tom Jefferson, flu vaccines are basically medical marketing scams.
I have commented lots this article on the EUOT. I even went as far as to read his infamous Cochrane Collaboration paper made... in 1999.
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 05:20:50 PM
Barrister, I have lots of things to state on this Atlantic article, but sadly I don't have the time.
Let's say that Tom Jefferson has the reputation of having a VERY... binary vision of what should constitute vaccine efficiency, so much in fact that he has become among infectiologists akind to what Duesberg is to the HIV/AIDS science community - a raving loon. To Tom Jefferson, flu vaccines are basically medical marketing scams.
I have commented lots this article on the EUOT. I even went as far as to read his infamous Cochrane Collaboration paper made... in 1999.
Don't tell me you're involved in the infection community too.
Quote from: Maximus on October 28, 2009, 05:22:46 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 05:20:50 PM
Barrister, I have lots of things to state on this Atlantic article, but sadly I don't have the time.
Let's say that Tom Jefferson has the reputation of having a VERY... binary vision of what should constitute vaccine efficiency, so much in fact that he has become among infectiologists akind to what Duesberg is to the HIV/AIDS science community - a raving loon. To Tom Jefferson, flu vaccines are basically medical marketing scams.
I have commented lots this article on the EUOT. I even went as far as to read his infamous Cochrane Collaboration paper made... in 1999.
Don't tell me you're involved in the infection community too.
No, it is just that as skeptic and as proponent of the scientific method and science-based medicine, the anti-flu vaccine kool-aid literally drives me nuts. I have read what they present as "evidence" that the flu vaccine is a sham, and I wasn't convinced at all compared to the mountain of scientific evidence that the flu vaccine is effective, safe, and a good tool in healthcare. In fact, it drives me to agree with crazy canuck and advocate mandatory vaccination.
Is it 100% safe and 100% effective all the time, every time? No. Thus, according to Tom Jefferson, this "proves" that the vaccine is bullshit and fraudulent. But no scientific nor healthcare providers ever argued it was such. The limitations of flu vaccination are, in fact, very well known to the scientific community, but it is undeniable it works. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Maximus on October 28, 2009, 05:12:22 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 28, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
/eats popcorn
:lol: Mass hysteria would be even funnier if it wasn't so deadly.
I've enjoyed this thread. :)
Pass on the normal vaccine. Flu = 3-4 days home from work watching Blurays and playing Fallout 3. Flu Shot for me = sore arm for a few days and an annoying cold. Undecided on Swine vaccine, not even sure if its even around by me yet. County isn't providing it to us social workers (and they ran out of the normal shot anyways before my building was up ... oops). Don't have any underlying health concerns and I'm not in the danger age range, so I'm unconcerned. Based on the results of the individuals at work and their children that have had it, for me Swine Flu will = 5 days or so of Blu Ray and Fallout 3 :D
Though I wonder if the universal vaccine is ever completed if we'll have mandatory vaccinations. Would you need to do a mass vaccination of pigs/poultry as well just to make sure something crazy doesn't get working in them and slip around the universal human vaccine?
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2009, 05:17:35 PM
Meri, doing some quick internet research on proper studies on the effectiveness of flu vaccines actually turned up this interesting article in Yi's favourite magazine, The Atlantic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1
Now it spends much more time focusing in on the very small minority who think flu vaccines are ineffective, but all-in-all it is a good overview on the difficulties of measuring efficacy.
The most interesting part I found was on page 2:
Quote"Tom Jefferson has taken a lot of heat just for saying, 'Here's the evidence: it's not very good,'" says Majumdar. "The reaction has been so dogmatic and even hysterical that you'd think he was advocating stealing babies." Yet while other flu researchers may not like what Jefferson has to say, they cannot ignore the fact that he knows the flu-vaccine literature better than anyone else on the planet. He leads an international team of researchers who have combed through hundreds of flu-vaccine studies. The vast majority of the studies were deeply flawed, says Jefferson. "Rubbish is not a scientific term, but I think it's the term that applies." Only four studies were properly designed to pin down the effectiveness of flu vaccine, he says, and two of those showed that it might be effective in certain groups of patients, such as school-age children with no underlying health issues like asthma. The other two showed equivocal results or no benefit.
Why is this part interesting? The biggest critic of current research says that of 4 properly conducted studies, 2 show no result, and 2 show a benefit in children.
At worst the vaccine is useless, at best it will help your kids. You have nothing to lose, and lots to gain.
I've never argued that the flu vaccine is ineffective. I believe that it's very effective, when done correctly (i.e. the right strains are inoculated at the right times). What I argue is the need of it in healthy individuals.
See, that's just it. I don't have a problem with vaccines. My kids are up-to-date on the necessary shots, and I strongly advocate for those with compromised immune systems to get the shots that will help them get through another cold and flu season. But I don't buy that just because we have a shot for something we should use it. There are vaccines for illnesses that are nothing but an inconvenience, like chickenpox and the regular seasonal flu. I don't think that those are a good idea, because, especially with the chickenpox vaccine, getting the disease is usually a more effective way to avoid bigger issues later in life.
I don't have a problem with people getting them if that's what they'd prefer. I just don't happen to believe that they're necessary, and take issue with those who argue otherwise. Smallpox kills, mumps cause sterility, tetanus saves lives every day. Those are necessary shots. Not getting a 24-hour flu or a bout of spots isn't.
Quote from: Drakken on October 28, 2009, 05:24:30 PM
No, it is just that as skeptic and as proponent of the scientific method and science-based medicine, the anti-flu vaccine kool-aid literally drives me nuts. I have read what they present as "evidence" that the flu vaccine is a sham, and I wasn't convinced at all compared to the mountain of scientific evidence that the flu vaccine is effective, safe, and a good tool in healthcare. In fact, it drives me to agree with crazy canuck and advocate mandatory vaccination.
Is it 100% safe and 100% effective all the time, every time? No. Thus, according to Tom Jefferson, this "proves" that the vaccine is bullshit and fraudulent. But no scientific nor healthcare providers ever argued it was such. The limitations of flu vaccination are, in fact, very well known to the scientific community, but it is undeniable it works. :rolleyes:
I agree that Tom Jefferson is a nutcase. Is part of it a marketing scam? Only as much as any other drug pushing is by pharmaceutical companies. It's an effective way to avoid the flu. It's just non-essential for 95% of the population if the point is to avoid death, and in the end it just isn't as effective in the long run as actually getting the disease. (And that comes straight from my doctor's mouth. His argument is that if you can avoid the disease, why not do so?)
Well, apparently this Saturday was not soon enough - Jake appears to have the flu.
Quote from: Berkut on October 29, 2009, 08:06:37 AM
Well, apparently this Saturday was not soon enough - Jake appears to have the flu.
Oh man, that sucks. :(
Carl is lining up today, the first day it is offered - I hope it is not too much of a circus at the clinic.
Quote from: merithyn on October 28, 2009, 04:42:40 PM
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 09:05:56 PM
In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf)
The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.
Restated for BB's benefit.
Actually, your data shows about a 1/3 drop in pneumonia and influenza death rates in that time frame (from roughly 36/100k to 25/100k). That isn't as big as the drop from the 150/100k in the first half of the century, but it is significant.
Quote from: Berkut on October 29, 2009, 08:06:37 AM
Well, apparently this Saturday was not soon enough - Jake appears to have the flu.
Damn. :(
Still, console yourself by knowin his immune system has been propped with the h1n1 anticorps by the vaccine, even after a few days though not long enough to prevent the infection. So his body is better prepared to fight it.
Is the H1N1 tho? It's still just the flu.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 29, 2009, 10:15:12 AM
Is the H1N1 tho? It's still just the flu.
The odds are something like 98% that any flu you get now is H1N1, based on the weekly CDC report: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
Quote from: DocDoom7 on October 28, 2009, 06:15:34 PM
Would you need to do a mass vaccination of pigs/poultry as well just to make sure something crazy doesn't get working in them and slip around the universal human vaccine?
the current industrial food model is mass animal containment and industrial-scale biohazard controls. mass vaccination would be a secondary step; another option is quarantine and destruction of infected protein-carriers (i.e. animals). some people are pushing for irradiation of everything.
under this kind of system, we may as well grow all our meat in a petri dish.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 10:35:17 AM
some people are pushing for irradiation of everything.
:blush:
For those concerned about it, it was basically like having the regular flu plus a bad hangover.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 29, 2009, 10:49:35 AM
For those concerned about it, it was basically like having the regular flu plus a bad hangover.
Color me unsurprised. -_-
Quote from: Berkut on October 29, 2009, 08:06:37 AM
Well, apparently this Saturday was not soon enough - Jake appears to have the flu.
Hope he feels better soon.
Quote from: ulmont on October 29, 2009, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 29, 2009, 10:15:12 AM
Is the H1N1 tho? It's still just the flu.
The odds are something like 98% that any flu you get now is H1N1, based on the weekly CDC report: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
That data is a bit suspect. For example doctors here are not even testing anymore to see what kind of flu people have unless they present with tell tale H1N1 symptoms. Therefore the only data being reported is H1N1 but as doctors continue to caution, there are a lot of other viruses out there and so just because you get the flu you it may not be H1N1 and so you should get vaccinated unless H1N1 was confirmed.
Unless of course you live in Meri's part of the world were apparently other viruses simply dont exist.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
That data is a bit suspect. For example doctors here are not even testing anymore to see what kind of flu people have unless they present with tell tale H1N1 symptoms. Therefore the only data being reported is H1N1
Considering that only 37.5% of the specimens tested turned out to actually be influenza, I'm not sure that's accurate.
Quote from: ulmont on October 29, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
That data is a bit suspect. For example doctors here are not even testing anymore to see what kind of flu people have unless they present with tell tale H1N1 symptoms. Therefore the only data being reported is H1N1
Considering that only 37.5% of the specimens tested turned out to actually be influenza, I'm not sure that's accurate.
You dont think it is possible to have symptoms that are similar to H1N1 (shortness of breath being the big one that concern doctors and cause them to test) and not have H1N1 but some other underlying cause. Really?
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 12:10:53 PM
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
Not surprising. Its not like the system is designed to take a sudden influx of work.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 12:10:53 PM
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
There were some very long line-ups here when I got the shot. I don't know how you avoid it though.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:19:05 PM
There were some very long line-ups here when I got the shot. I don't know how you avoid it though.
There are ways
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 12:00:45 PM
You dont think it is possible to have symptoms that are similar to H1N1 (shortness of breath being the big one that concern doctors and cause them to test) and not have H1N1 but some other underlying cause. Really?
I certainly think that is possible; as I noted, some 67.5% of people who had specimens tested (presumably based on H1N1 related symptoms) did
not have any influenza virus at all.
What I think is unlikely, based on the stats, is that anyone has an
influenza virus and does not have H1N1.
Quote from: ulmont on October 29, 2009, 12:40:04 PM
What I think is unlikely, based on the stats, is that anyone has an influenza virus and does not have H1N1.
Why? If no one is testing people to confirm other types of influenza why dont you suspect bias in the sample?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 12:41:57 PM
Why? If no one is testing people to confirm other types of influenza why dont you suspect bias in the sample?
Because people are being tested and found not to have influenza?
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 12:10:53 PM
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
There were some very long line-ups here when I got the shot. I don't know how you avoid it though.
wait until the lineups thin out?
queuing up all afternoon with a bunch of maybe sick, and very stressed people, is low of my list of things to do.
it can't be good for one's health.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 12:41:57 PM
Why? If no one is testing people to confirm other types of influenza why dont you suspect bias in the sample?
they test in the early stages, i.e. when there's not a ton of sick people. When there's ton of sick people, they only test the serious cases, and they assume that since they found only H1N1 so far, everyone sick has it.
Quote from: viper37 on October 29, 2009, 01:18:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 12:41:57 PM
Why? If no one is testing people to confirm other types of influenza why dont you suspect bias in the sample?
they test in the early stages, i.e. when there's not a ton of sick people. When there's ton of sick people, they only test the serious cases, and they assume that since they found only H1N1 so far, everyone sick has it.
Which is exactly why the data is suspect.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 12:10:53 PM
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
There were some very long line-ups here when I got the shot. I don't know how you avoid it though.
wait until the lineups thin out?
queuing up all afternoon with a bunch of maybe sick, and very stressed people, is low of my list of things to do.
it can't be good for one's health.
Meh. When they told me it would be an hour and a half I just went home and got a book, then returned. I only had to wait an hour it turns out.
It sounds like you're looking for an excuse not to get the shot.
not that it matters but I am sure as hell ain't going to wait 5h for the shot.
We have arranged for someone to come to the office to give all the staff (and their families) the shot. The trouble is with coordinating when they will have access to the vaccine. Probably the 4th.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 29, 2009, 01:59:02 PM
not that it matters but I am sure as hell ain't going to wait 5h for the shot.
I'll go on November 7th, which is a Saturday and I don't work weekends. I can wait a few hours allright to get the shot.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 29, 2009, 02:16:52 PM
We have arranged for someone to come to the office to give all the staff (and their families) the shot. The trouble is with coordinating when they will have access to the vaccine. Probably the 4th.
Man you are lucky to be able to do this, while in Quebec everything is currently centralized into the public healthcare system.
Will this be the one to trigger World War Z?
Incidentally, the shot's only 68% effective. Have fun everyone. :hug:
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 03:32:48 PM
Incidentally, the shot's only 68% effective. Have fun everyone. :hug:
But not getting the shot is 0% effective.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:54:18 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 12:10:53 PM
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
There were some very long line-ups here when I got the shot. I don't know how you avoid it though.
wait until the lineups thin out?
queuing up all afternoon with a bunch of maybe sick, and very stressed people, is low of my list of things to do.
it can't be good for one's health.
Meh. When they told me it would be an hour and a half I just went home and got a book, then returned. I only had to wait an hour it turns out.
It sounds like you're looking for an excuse not to get the shot.
whatever. the clinics here are not even officially open for low risk people such as me right now. they can barely handle the kids, the mothers and the elderly at the moment. I'll wait.
apparently Slt. Ste. Marie had the foresight to create an appointment system. here it's hurry up and wait.
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 03:57:39 PM
whatever. the clinics here are not even officially open for low risk people such as me right now. they can barely handle the kids, the mothers and the elderly at the moment. I'll wait.
apparently Slt. Ste. Marie had the foresight to create an appointment system. here it's hurry up and wait.
Well if they're not even taking healthy adults then yeah, don't worry about it.
Funny though they're giving the shots to everyone up here.
So should I get it or shouldn't I??? I'm freakin' out ovah heah!! :worthy:
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 03:59:24 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 03:57:39 PM
whatever. the clinics here are not even officially open for low risk people such as me right now. they can barely handle the kids, the mothers and the elderly at the moment. I'll wait.
apparently Slt. Ste. Marie had the foresight to create an appointment system. here it's hurry up and wait.
Well if they're not even taking healthy adults then yeah, don't worry about it.
Funny though they're giving the shots to everyone up here.
Slightly less people to give them to.
Woah, poking about the 'net the anti-vacc lunatics are all over the place, this really brought them out of the woodwork.
Quote from: Malthus on October 29, 2009, 04:32:50 PM
Woah, poking about the 'net the anti-vacc lunatics are all over the place, this really brought them out of the woodwork.
They´ve been at it here in the press for weeks. Thats when the press isnt causing panic in the other direction about what will happen if you dont get the vaccine.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on October 29, 2009, 04:02:26 PM
So should I get it or shouldn't I??? I'm freakin' out ovah heah!! :worthy:
If you can get it you should.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on October 29, 2009, 04:02:26 PM
So should I get it or shouldn't I??? I'm freakin' out ovah heah!! :worthy:
I don't know but you should definitely get a shot for the freaking out. That's more likely to kill you than the flu.
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 03:32:48 PM
Incidentally, the shot's only 68% effective. Have fun everyone. :hug:
Source, please?
Because all published reports of clinical tests that I've seen so far show a vaccine efficiency of 90%+ for h1n1 flu vaccine with one only shot.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0907413
Quote
Published at www.nejm.org September 10, 2009 (10.1056/NEJMoa0907413)
Response after One Dose of a Monovalent Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Vaccine — Preliminary Report
Michael E. Greenberg, M.D., M.P.H., Michael H. Lai, B.Med.Sc., M.B., B.S., M.Med.Sc., Gunter F. Hartel, M.S., Ph.D., Christine H. Wichems, Ph.D., Charmaine Gittleson, B.Sc., M.B., B.Ch., Jillian Bennet, M.Sc., M.P.H., Gail Dawson, B.Pharm., Wilson Hu, M.D., M.B.A., Connie Leggio, B.Sc., Diane Washington, M.D., and Russell L. Basser, M.B., B.S., M.D., F.R.A.C.P.
Background
A novel influenza A (H1N1) 2009 virus is responsible for the first influenza pandemic in 41 years. A safe and effective vaccine is urgently needed. A randomized, observer-blind, parallel-group trial evaluating two doses of an inactivated, split-virus 2009 H1N1 vaccine in healthy adults between the ages of 18 and 64 years is ongoing at a single site in Australia.
Methods
This preliminary report evaluates the immunogenicity and safety of the vaccine 21 days after the first of two scheduled doses. A total of 240 subjects, equally divided into two age groups (<50 years and ≥50 years), were enrolled and underwent randomization to receive either 15 µg or 30 µg of hemagglutinin antigen by intramuscular injection. We measured antibody titers using hemagglutination-inhibition and microneutralization assays at baseline and 21 days after vaccination. The coprimary immunogenicity end points were the proportion of subjects with antibody titers of 1:40 or more on hemagglutination-inhibition assay, the proportion of subjects with either seroconversion or a significant increase in antibody titer, and the factor increase in the geometric mean titer.
Results
By day 21 after vaccination, antibody titers of 1:40 or more were observed in 116 of 120 subjects (96.7%) who received the 15-µg dose and in 112 of 120 subjects (93.3%) who received the 30-µg dose. No deaths, serious adverse events, or adverse events of special interest were reported. Local discomfort (e.g., injection-site tenderness or pain) was reported by 46.3% of subjects, and systemic symptoms (e.g., headache) by 45.0% of subjects. Nearly all events were mild to moderate in intensity.
Conclusions
A single 15-µg dose of 2009 H1N1 vaccine was immunogenic in adults, with mild-to-moderate vaccine-associated reactions. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00938639 [ClinicalTrials.gov] .)
Quote from: Maximus on October 29, 2009, 05:00:43 PM
I don't know but you should definitely get a shot for the freaking out. That's more likely to kill you than the flu.
Unfortunately, they haven't started offering IV Valium at Walgreens. :( I'm going to trust the advice of the good barrister and go ask about the vaccine right now. :Canuck:
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on October 29, 2009, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 29, 2009, 05:00:43 PM
I don't know but you should definitely get a shot for the freaking out. That's more likely to kill you than the flu.
Unfortunately, they haven't started offering IV Valium at Walgreens. :( I'm going to trust the advice of the good barrister and go ask about the vaccine right now. :Canuck:
If you can get it right now, please do. The sooner, the better.
Quote from: Cecil on October 29, 2009, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 29, 2009, 04:32:50 PM
Woah, poking about the 'net the anti-vacc lunatics are all over the place, this really brought them out of the woodwork.
They´ve been at it here in the press for weeks. Thats when the press isnt causing panic in the other direction about what will happen if you dont get the vaccine.
Extremists on both ends are driving me nuts.
Quote from: merithyn on October 29, 2009, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Cecil on October 29, 2009, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 29, 2009, 04:32:50 PM
Woah, poking about the 'net the anti-vacc lunatics are all over the place, this really brought them out of the woodwork.
They´ve been at it here in the press for weeks. Thats when the press isnt causing panic in the other direction about what will happen if you dont get the vaccine.
Extremists on both ends are driving me nuts.
:huh:
Quote from: Berkut on October 29, 2009, 09:31:24 PM
You are like Sarah Palin complaining about right wing extremists.
:huh: Because I disagree with getting flu shots I'm now an extremist?
I see the value in some vaccines, so I'm obviously not on the rabid anti-vaccine end of things. (Once again, my kids' vaccines are all up-to-date.) At the same time, I don't believe in all of the media hype that's going around, nor the claptrap that just because we have a vaccine we should all get it or we're putting the entire world at risk of death. (I don't believe that all vaccines are created equally, nor that all vaccines are necessary.)
There is a happy medium, Berk. Believe it or not, in the real world - as opposed to the Languish meme one - some people can agree with some aspects of an argument and not with others. It's actually not even that unusual beyond the world of Languish.
Quote from: merithyn on October 29, 2009, 09:38:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 29, 2009, 09:31:24 PM
You are like Sarah Palin complaining about right wing extremists.
:huh: Because I disagree with getting flu shots I'm now an extremist?
Yes.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 03:46:18 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 03:32:48 PM
Incidentally, the shot's only 68% effective. Have fun everyone. :hug:
But not getting the shot is 0% effective.
Another point for my case: getting the shot would be 100% effective. At triggering a psychotic break. I have a
violent phobia of needles.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 29, 2009, 11:34:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 03:46:18 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 03:32:48 PM
Incidentally, the shot's only 68% effective. Have fun everyone. :hug:
But not getting the shot is 0% effective.
Another point for my case: getting the shot would be 100% effective. At triggering a psychotic break. I have a violent phobia of needles.
Lucky you, in the US you can have the vaccine through nasal spray. :)
Quote from: merithyn on October 29, 2009, 09:38:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 29, 2009, 09:31:24 PM
You are like Sarah Palin complaining about right wing extremists.
:huh: Because I disagree with getting flu shots I'm now an extremist?
I don't think I said that.
Quote
I see the value in some vaccines, so I'm obviously not on the rabid anti-vaccine end of things. (Once again, my kids' vaccines are all up-to-date.) At the same time, I don't believe in all of the media hype that's going around,
As opposed to those of us who are big believers in "media hype". I know I am.
Quote
nor the claptrap that just because we have a vaccine we should all get it or we're putting the entire world at risk of death. (I don't believe that all vaccines are created equally, nor that all vaccines are necessary.)
Strawman. And calling the recommendation that people get a flu shot "claptrap" and some kind of conspiracy driven by "media hype" is definitely pushing the kookiness boundaries a bit Meri.
Quote
There is a happy medium, Berk. Believe it or not, in the real world - as opposed to the Languish meme one - some people can agree with some aspects of an argument and not with others. It's actually not even that unusual beyond the world of Languish.
Yeah, the happy medium is getting a flu shot when almostthe entirety of the medical community recommends it.
I did not say you were an extremist, just that you were neighbors with them, so your faux outrage is rather odd. Each to his own and all that though. But really, you are not in the "happy medium".
owned.
First they tried to fluoridate us, now that want to inoculate us!
Drakken, seriously, how much are they paying you?
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:37:09 AM
As opposed to those of us who are big believers in "media hype". I know I am.
I do believe that the media hypes the dangers of these things up because the media hypes up anything that they think will sell a story. They focus on those "healthy" individuals who die of the H1N1. They don't discuss the communities who have dealt with H1N1 and not had a single death. Instead, they go to the one where H1N1 broke out and a 13-year-old hockey player drops dead in 48 hours.
The media is never balanced. Ever. So yes, there is media hype on how bad H1N1 is. Do I think it's a conspiracy? No more than leading with the tragic car accident and then discussing the Spelling Bee is a conspiracy. It's what the media does.
Quote
Strawman. And calling the recommendation that people get a flu shot "claptrap" and some kind of conspiracy driven by "media hype" is definitely pushing the kookiness boundaries a bit Meri.
What I'm calling "claptrap" is the idea that one "has" to get the flu shot just because it's available. I have no opinion on those who choose to get the flu shot. That's their decision to make, just as it's mine to say no. The "claptrap" is the pressure being placed on those who choose not to.
Quote
Yeah, the happy medium is getting a flu shot when almostthe entirety of the medical community recommends it.
I did not say you were an extremist, just that you were neighbors with them, so your faux outrage is rather odd. Each to his own and all that though. But really, you are not in the "happy medium".
Because I don't believe that getting a flu shot is essential to life? It may not be the choice you'd make, but surely not so extreme as to be "out there" with Sarah Palin questioning the extreme Right.
But as you said, to each their own opinion.
The implementation of the program here in Toronto has so far been craptastic.
My wife took Carl to get vaccinated; the wait was 6 hours, and she was lucky to get in at all. :( There were only 2 clinics open - for a city of nearly 3 million people.
Meri, please, don't trust the media when they talk about science ;)
It's hard, but we have to make a difference between media hype and scientific facts. And the facts are clear: the disease is potentially lethal, getting the vaccine is better than getting the disease, the vaccine is the best defense against a mutation of the disease and if it happens, against the mutated virus.
Now, even if the media were to tell you everyone is going to die, that's not true. Look at the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918. Not everybody got it, not everyone died of it.
However, there is a simple remedy: a vaccine. There's no dangers with vaccines, for most poeple. Those suffering from allergies of immune system disease should of course consult their doctors, like they do for everything. But everyone else should get the vaccine. Especially the kids.
Why?
Simple, really.
The more vaccinated people we have, the less interruptions there will be to our way of lives. Imagine coming at work and 1/4 of the workforce is not there this morning... How is this going to affect the performance of the company? Multiply that by 2 weeks and by, say, half the number of companies in any given area.
You see what it did to Mexico when they were it? Were there 10 millions dead in the city? No, of course not.
But there was widespread panic, there was a quarantine on the country, all flights to and from Mexico were suspended, and many US hospitals near Mexico were overwhelmed with patients, wich is exactly what we are seeing now.
A vaccine costs 8$ to the government. Having someone in intensive care costs 500$ a day + the drugs to stabilize him.
I think it's cost effective. Therefore warranted.
It's not simply about dying or living, if that was the choice, nearly everyone would get it.
The choice is with taking the chance of being sick & transmitting the disease or getting the vaccine and stopping the disease in its track.
Of course it's a chance. It's a probability, not a certitude. It's the same thing as going to a Christmas party with half of your family sick with the flu. There's a good chance you'll get it yourself in a few days. But there's also a possibility that you won't be sick.
Quote from: Malthus on October 30, 2009, 08:44:27 AM
The implementation of the program here in Toronto has so far been craptastic.
My wife took Carl to get vaccinated; the wait was 6 hours, and she was lucky to get in at all. :( There were only 2 clinics open - for a city of nearly 3 million people.
That's impossible. Michael Moore assured us that we did not wait at all for our health care.
Quote from: Malthus on October 30, 2009, 08:44:27 AM
The implementation of the program here in Toronto has so far been craptastic.
My wife took Carl to get vaccinated; the wait was 6 hours, and she was lucky to get in at all. :( There were only 2 clinics open - for a city of nearly 3 million people.
Holy crap, what a mess.
Here we just go to our doctor for the shot.
Although there are certainly shortages. I am not sure why Jake and Melanie's ped has it available, because I know many do not. It could be because they are both considered to be at risk.
Of course Jake won't be getting it tomorrow as planned anyway, since he has a fever today. Not really sure it is the flu though - he has a fever and cough, but no aches, no headache, no nausea. So far, anyway.
He is enjoying the four day weekend, actually.
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 09:05:51 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 30, 2009, 08:44:27 AM
The implementation of the program here in Toronto has so far been craptastic.
My wife took Carl to get vaccinated; the wait was 6 hours, and she was lucky to get in at all. :( There were only 2 clinics open - for a city of nearly 3 million people.
Holy crap, what a mess.
Here we just go to our doctor for the shot.
Although there are certainly shortages. I am not sure why Jake and Melanie's ped has it available, because I know many do not. It could be because they are both considered to be at risk.
Of course Jake won't be getting it tomorrow as planned anyway, since he has a fever today. Not really sure it is the flu though - he has a fever and cough, but no aches, no headache, no nausea. So far, anyway.
He is enjoying the four day weekend, actually.
In Ontario it goes by city. In some smaller cities in this province, the vaccine was distributed to docs who then gave it to patients - seems to me the sensible method.
Here in Toronto, for whatever reason, they didn't give it to the docs but set up public clinics instead. Bad move. The result has been chaos.
Seems that the date for heathly adult is December 7th.
We're all going to be dead by then!
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 03:32:48 PM
Incidentally, the shot's only 68% effective. Have fun everyone. :hug:
Another reminder that 84.2% of all statistics one encounters in online discussions are made up on the spot. :hug:
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 09:05:51 AM
Of course Jake won't be getting it tomorrow as planned anyway, since he has a fever today. Not really sure it is the flu though - he has a fever and cough, but no aches, no headache, no nausea. So far, anyway.
He is enjoying the four day weekend, actually.
FWIW, the worst I got was a headache, cough and scratchy throat. Not even a noticeable fever. I don't know that I've had H1N1 but I've spent the last 2 months living with and spending my days in classrooms full of people who've had it.
some local clinics will not necessarily be open on Monday, citing shortages of vaccines. could be at least a week or TWO.
of the two clinics open this week, one closed early today because of the sheer numbers. if you were in line then, you were ok for the shot.
there is eventually supposed to 12 clinics eventually. but vaccines are only for priority groups at the moment.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 30, 2009, 06:34:46 AM
Drakken, seriously, how much are they paying you?
/Sarcasm on
They pay me in kind - casting couches with sexy chicks who have been throughly tested for any STD - and influensa too - for me to "audition" for future movies. Because, as we know, the adult industry is a lucrative market for Big Pharma to peddle their wares, so they have their entries.
/Sarcasm off
Seriously, though, because I present credible scientific evidence that the vaccine works and I dont drink the anti-vaccine kool-aid, that means I am part of "The Conspiracy(TM)". Typical conspiracy-nut paranoia. <_<
*sigh*
My wife is freaking out over H1N1.
I went to get the shot on Monday, the first day it was available. I asked her if she wanted to come, but she said she'd get the shot at work on Thursday (she works at a jail).
So yesterday I asked her, and they don't have the different shot for pregnant women. But she didn't seem all that concerned about it, so I bit my tongue.
And now today she goes into work and they have several confirmed H1N1 cases in the jail. She's now freaking out (understandably though) and worried about whether it's even safe to be in the same building.
hmm... turns out there are two different shots for pregnant women - one for over 20 weeks, and one for under 20 weeks. The under 20 weeks one isn't in the Yukon yet.
I went to two different Walgreens and they told me no dice. :( So much for their freakin ads. <_<
They said "the government" has all the vaccines in the Philly area and we can't get them yet. :(
Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2009, 09:02:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 30, 2009, 08:44:27 AM
The implementation of the program here in Toronto has so far been craptastic.
My wife took Carl to get vaccinated; the wait was 6 hours, and she was lucky to get in at all. :( There were only 2 clinics open - for a city of nearly 3 million people.
That's impossible. Michael Moore assured us that we did not wait at all for our health care.
he was mistaken. sometimes you have to wait... especially when people are all panicky. The news makes every clinic look like it's populated by the parents from a South Park or Simpsons cartoon.
patience is a virtue.
Quote from: Barrister on October 30, 2009, 06:26:19 PM
hmm... turns out there are two different shots for pregnant women - one for over 20 weeks, and one for under 20 weeks. The under 20 weeks one isn't in the Yukon yet.
That seems... wrong that they wouldn't have both available. Especially for such a high-risk group.
What are they saying the danger is to pregnant women, in particular? From what I've heard, this particular flu is extremely dangerous to them, but no specifics. Is the overall package just a bad combination? And how far along is she, BB? Will it be too long a wait for the 20 weeks shot?
Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2009, 09:01:07 AM
Meri, please, don't trust the media when they talk about science ;)
I don't. :)
Quote
It's hard, but we have to make a difference between media hype and scientific facts. And the facts are clear: the disease is potentially lethal, getting the vaccine is better than getting the disease, the vaccine is the best defense against a mutation of the disease and if it happens, against the mutated virus.
Now, even if the media were to tell you everyone is going to die, that's not true. Look at the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918. Not everybody got it, not everyone died of it.
However, there is a simple remedy: a vaccine. There's no dangers with vaccines, for most poeple. Those suffering from allergies of immune system disease should of course consult their doctors, like they do for everything. But everyone else should get the vaccine. Especially the kids.
Why?
Simple, really.
The more vaccinated people we have, the less interruptions there will be to our way of lives. Imagine coming at work and 1/4 of the workforce is not there this morning... How is this going to affect the performance of the company? Multiply that by 2 weeks and by, say, half the number of companies in any given area.
You see what it did to Mexico when they were it? Were there 10 millions dead in the city? No, of course not.
But there was widespread panic, there was a quarantine on the country, all flights to and from Mexico were suspended, and many US hospitals near Mexico were overwhelmed with patients, wich is exactly what we are seeing now.
A vaccine costs 8$ to the government. Having someone in intensive care costs 500$ a day + the drugs to stabilize him.
I think it's cost effective. Therefore warranted.
It's not simply about dying or living, if that was the choice, nearly everyone would get it.
The choice is with taking the chance of being sick & transmitting the disease or getting the vaccine and stopping the disease in its track.
Of course it's a chance. It's a probability, not a certitude. It's the same thing as going to a Christmas party with half of your family sick with the flu. There's a good chance you'll get it yourself in a few days. But there's also a possibility that you won't be sick.
i.e. it's a convenience vaccination.
Vaccine shortages here in BC means that the shots we arranged for our office next week have been delayed until the supply comes in.
I wish that more people ignored the medical professionals like Meri. Too many people doing what they should do means that I have to wait a little longer.
Yeah the free clinic shots were delayed as not enough to make it worthwhile, even the schools are short in supply iirc.
I have my shot. :)
Quote from: merithyn on October 31, 2009, 06:16:45 AM
i.e. it's a convenience vaccination.
all vaccines are like that.
Look at most of the disease we get a vaccine for.
There weren't billions of dead from these diseases every year before the vaccine.
But there were a lot of sick people. And we decided we could get rid of that, for the betterment of the society. And I still don't see why some people are freaking about the vaccine.
If most people were to get the seasonal flu shot, we could improve our productivity by a lot.
But hey, people prefer to take their sick days and stay home feeling bad. Figures.
Quote from: viper37 on October 31, 2009, 12:45:33 PM
But hey, people prefer to take their sick days and stay home feeling bad. Figures.
Nothing sucks worse than taking a sick day, and then feeling too poorly to enjoy it. :(
Quote from: grumbler on October 31, 2009, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 31, 2009, 12:45:33 PM
But hey, people prefer to take their sick days and stay home feeling bad. Figures.
Nothing sucks worse than taking a sick day, and then feeling too poorly to enjoy it. :(
I tend to remind myself of that when I wish I could get some sickdays. When I do get that sickness staying at home looking at the cracks in the roof isnt that great even if you do get to sleep in.
one to two weeks est. delivery to begin general vaccinations may now be "several weeks."
anyhow, the whole delivery system was flawed:
QuoteBefore the tragedies, no one had expected such large crowds to come out. Those who worked on Ontario's pandemic plan, which serves as a model for the rest of the country, had foreseen worst-case scenarios involving illness, not inoculations. Pandemic planners considered situations in which the entire health-care system would become overwhelmed with sick people, and how hospitals and clinics would cope with the workload.
But vaccines? They didn't see people rushing for those.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-swine-flu/ottawa-got-last-minute-warning-of-shortfall-in-h1n1-vaccine/article1346246/
if Ontario's pandemic plan is a "model for the rest of the country", I would be concerned.
and they didn't "expect a rush", despite the urgings from politicians and health officials for everyone to get vaccinated.
My youngest son is running a fever (not too high though) and it looks like my wife (who never gets sick) is getting sick as well.
Quote from: saskganesh on November 01, 2009, 10:34:10 AM
and they didn't "expect a rush", despite the urgings from politicians and health officials for everyone to get vaccinated.
Polls showed at most 50% of the population willing to get the vaccine. In Quebec, that was 30%, before the hockey kid died :(
Now, the vaccination centers are overwhelmed, and the health dept had to restate the order of priority.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 01, 2009, 11:00:35 AM
My youngest son is running a fever (not too high though) and it looks like my wife (who never gets sick) is getting sick as well.
that sucks :(
just remember kids, people in need didn't get their vaccine, because BB insisted that he get his first. :bowler:
Quote from: saskganesh on November 01, 2009, 06:16:46 PM
just remember kids, people in need didn't get their vaccine, because BB insisted that he get his first. :bowler:
Remember kids - vaccines in the Yukon are not transferrable to other jurisdictions. And Yukon has no shortages of vaccine.
Also remember - with a pregnant wife it was actually important for me to get the vaccine.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on October 30, 2009, 10:00:19 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2009, 09:02:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 30, 2009, 08:44:27 AM
The implementation of the program here in Toronto has so far been craptastic.
My wife took Carl to get vaccinated; the wait was 6 hours, and she was lucky to get in at all. :( There were only 2 clinics open - for a city of nearly 3 million people.
That's impossible. Michael Moore assured us that we did not wait at all for our health care.
he was mistaken. sometimes you have to wait... especially when people are all panicky. The news makes every clinic look like it's populated by the parents from a South Park or Simpsons cartoon.
patience is a virtue.
Indeed. I'm planning to get vaccinated some time in 2016.
I'm still Flu free even tho I took the Subway twice & went to the Bell Centre this weekend!
Will I still be : Wednesday?
It reached my home town today. It is said that 0,01% of all infected people will die. :cry: It's a tragedy!
Quote from: Barrister on November 01, 2009, 06:27:46 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on November 01, 2009, 06:16:46 PM
just remember kids, people in need didn't get their vaccine, because BB insisted that he get his first. :bowler:
Remember kids - vaccines in the Yukon are not transferrable to other jurisdictions. And Yukon has no shortages of vaccine.
Also remember - with a pregnant wife it was actually important for me to get the vaccine.
"now you are just making excuses"
Quote from: Slargos on October 27, 2009, 08:02:42 AM
As far as I know, I'm not in the at-risk group that needs the shot per se, and as such I don't see a huge reason to get the shot.
What would push me over into the yes camp is the consideration I need to take in relation to my nieces.
I really don't know, but I am not worried.
What are the risk groups for this one? Are they substantially different from the normal one?
For the record I am getting my seasonal flu vaccine on Wednesday. As for the swine flu, they will be introduced in Poland in a few weeks when the Polish government is happy side effects are not worse than the flu itself (not sure if this means Polish government is so incompetent or so reasonable).
Quote from: Martinus on November 02, 2009, 01:02:47 PM
What are the risk groups for this one? Are they substantially different from the normal one?
The risk groups are pretty much the same as the usual flu. They are risk groups because they have somewhat weakened immune systems.
Thee risk groups are:
-children
-pregnant women
-older people
-people with otherwise weakened immune systems or respiratory problems
Quote from: merithyn on October 27, 2009, 08:06:39 PM
those older than 24 without an underlying concern are at greatest risk,
you are younger than 24? :blink:
Quote from: Drakken on October 29, 2009, 09:20:56 AM
Still, console yourself by knowin his immune system has been propped with the h1n1 anticorps by the vaccine, even after a few days though not long enough to prevent the infection. So his body is better prepared to fight it.
Err, doesn't it mean that his body is actually fighting off the weakened flu from the vaccine and possibly a second flu he also caught, thus is less rather than more prepared?
There is a reason why people who are suffering from flu or even common cold shouldn't be vaccinated before they recover, you know.
Quote from: The Brain on October 29, 2009, 10:42:46 AM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 10:35:17 AM
some people are pushing for irradiation of everything.
:blush:
But this comes coupled with mass slaughter of animals.
Aren't you conflicted?
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:54:18 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on October 29, 2009, 12:10:53 PM
radio reports are that people are very frustrated about execution. long lineups emerging, not enough clinics, not enough support staff, not enough people to answer the phones. it goes on.
There were some very long line-ups here when I got the shot. I don't know how you avoid it though.
wait until the lineups thin out?
queuing up all afternoon with a bunch of maybe sick, and very stressed people, is low of my list of things to do.
it can't be good for one's health.
Meh. When they told me it would be an hour and a half I just went home and got a book, then returned. I only had to wait an hour it turns out.
It sounds like you're looking for an excuse not to get the shot.
Actually he is thinking quite sensibly. The chances of catching any virus (even of common cold) in a queue like that are quite high, and suffering from any viral seasonal disease is the first no-no you should be looking for when getting the shot.
Quote from: Barrister on October 30, 2009, 05:50:15 PM
And now today she goes into work and they have several confirmed H1N1 cases in the jail.
Isn't this a bit too extreme? I mean, it's not their fault they got it...
Quote from: Barrister on October 30, 2009, 06:26:19 PM
hmm... turns out there are two different shots for pregnant women - one for over 20 weeks, and one for under 20 weeks. The under 20 weeks one isn't in the Yukon yet.
It would be ironic if by the time it arrived, your wife will have been over 20 weeks, but by then they will have run out of the over 20 weeks one. :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 02, 2009, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 30, 2009, 05:50:15 PM
And now today she goes into work and they have several confirmed H1N1 cases in the jail.
Isn't this a bit too extreme? I mean, it's not their fault they got it...
:lmfao:
BC's Centre for Disease Control boldly forecasts that everyone should have their vaccinations "by Christmas."
And WHO now assets that pregnant women can take the adjuvanted regular vaccine without worrying about side effects :
www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/briefing_20091030/en/index.html
remember kids, people who don't have the shot at this very moment "are just making excuses."
Quote from: Martinus on November 02, 2009, 01:11:20 PM
you are younger than 24? :blink:
Not even close. I wasn't talking about me. :)
Quote from: saskganesh on November 02, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
remember kids, people who don't have the shot at this very moment "are just making excuses."
Or simply obtuse. :yes:
hmmm I may have to check in the doctor's tpmorrow. paranoid about this headache... had a sore back this morning too. shoulders a bit stiff now. Tomorrow we'll see. don't think I have a fever though. seems fine.
Quote from: saskganesh on November 02, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
remember kids, people who don't have the shot at this very moment "are just making excuses."
No, I said you were making excuses.
Quote from: saskganesh on November 02, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
And WHO now assets that pregnant women can take the adjuvanted regular vaccine without worrying about side effects :
www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/briefing_20091030/en/index.html
Good to know. I'll pass this along to my wife.
Still fine.
Still no Vaccine avalaible for me yet. Novembre 29th is the new date.
The danish health authorities has asked Post Danmark how many flu vaccines would been needed to cover essential staff and so on, answer: very few, only the top management will be needing any flu shots... <_<
So I guess I am not going to any swine flu vaccine. Will properly end up like some kind of zombie creature spreading equal amounts of flu bacteria and mail. At least until some B-movie hero lops my head of in some overdramatic way, properly useing a landmover or something like that...
BB, there was a story on the CBC National radio news report about how well the vaccinations were rolled out in the Yukon. Ironically that story followed directly on the heels of a story about how Iggy was critical of the Government for giving authority to the regions as to how best to role out their programs.
That may be the last nail in Iggies coffin. He has revealed himself as a true central authority Liberal in the old mold. Not sure if he had this in mind when he hired Donolo as his chief of staff but he now has to live with that.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 11:50:37 AM
BB, there was a story on the CBC National radio news report about how well the vaccinations were rolled out in the Yukon. Ironically that story followed directly on the heels of a story about how Iggy was critical of the Government for giving authority to the regions as to how best to role out their programs.
That may be the last nail in Iggies coffin. He has revealed himself as a true central authority Liberal in the old mold. Not sure if he had this in mind when he hired Donolo as his chief of staff but he now has to live with that.
What I don't understand is this: the actual supply of the vaccine is federal. How come the Yukon has enough seemingly for everyone, whereas the major provinces don't?
It isn't something the Yukon is doing *right*, because as far as I know the actual amount of vaccine isn't something the province or territory has any control over.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 11:50:37 AM
BB, there was a story on the CBC National radio news report about how well the vaccinations were rolled out in the Yukon. Ironically that story followed directly on the heels of a story about how Iggy was critical of the Government for giving authority to the regions as to how best to role out their programs.
That may be the last nail in Iggies coffin. He has revealed himself as a true central authority Liberal in the old mold. Not sure if he had this in mind when he hired Donolo as his chief of staff but he now has to live with that.
What I don't understand is this: the actual supply of the vaccine is federal. How come the Yukon has enough seemingly for everyone, whereas the major provinces don't?
It isn't something the Yukon is doing *right*, because as far as I know the actual amount of vaccine isn't something the province or territory has any control over.
The way I understand it is that each region was given the same per capita amounts. If our health minister (BC) is to be believed, Ontario ran into trouble when they didn't ration the vaccinations according to the protocols that were intially informally agreed to by all the health care providers accross the country. Apparently the Ontario government allowed the vaccinations to be given to anyone who showed up without any prescreening for whether they fit into the group that should have received it. Also that added to confusion about who should and should not recieve the shot because media in Ontario were reporting a protocol that didnt apply in BC (as an example).
Also, areas that do not have easy access to health care were given priority. So for example in the North of BC the vaccinations are easier to come by. I assume that is the same for the Yukon.
And for your cynical central Canadian soul, the reason the Yukon was being praised for its roll out is Whitehorse is doing innovative things like converting their recreational centres into innoculations centres and giving everone free passes to enjoy the amenities whil they wait for their shots (which are very well organized).
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 12:02:20 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 11:50:37 AM
BB, there was a story on the CBC National radio news report about how well the vaccinations were rolled out in the Yukon. Ironically that story followed directly on the heels of a story about how Iggy was critical of the Government for giving authority to the regions as to how best to role out their programs.
That may be the last nail in Iggies coffin. He has revealed himself as a true central authority Liberal in the old mold. Not sure if he had this in mind when he hired Donolo as his chief of staff but he now has to live with that.
What I don't understand is this: the actual supply of the vaccine is federal. How come the Yukon has enough seemingly for everyone, whereas the major provinces don't?
It isn't something the Yukon is doing *right*, because as far as I know the actual amount of vaccine isn't something the province or territory has any control over.
The way I understand it is that each region was given the same per capita amounts. If our health minister (BC) is to be believed, Ontario ran into trouble when they didn't ration the vaccinations according to the protocols that were intially informally agreed to by all the health care providers accross the country. Apparently the Ontario government allowed the vaccinations to be given to anyone who showed up without any prescreening for whether they fit into the group that should have received it. Also that added to confusion about who should and should not recieve the shot because media in Ontario were reporting a protocol that didnt apply in BC (as an example).
Also, areas that do not have easy access to health care were given priority. So for example in the North of BC the vaccinations are easier to come by. I assume that is the same for the Yukon.
And for your cynical central Canadian soul, the reason the Yukon was being praised for its roll out is Whitehorse is doing innovative things like converting their recreational centres into innoculations centres and giving everone free passes to enjoy the amenities whil they wait for their shots (which are very well organized).
From BB's post upthread:
QuoteFunny though they're giving the shots to everyone up here.
Seems that if there was a "protocol" insisting on "prescreening for high risk groups", the much-praised Yukon program didn't get the memo.
The rollout in Ontario lasted
one day before they announced that they had run out - in Toronto, only
two centres were open, and they closed the line an
hour after rollout started. My wife was in the line and just made it in (Carl's in the high risk group).
So I say that the "explaination" that the Ontarians were giving the vaccine to everyone and that is why they ran out, and that Ontario had the same per capita amount of vaccine as the Yukon = obviously untrue, based on the facts. How can the Yukon hand the stuff out like candy to everyone no problem (according to BB) , and Ontario shuts down after one hour if they all had the same per capita amount?
Yukon had 50,000 doses of the Vaccine by Oct 21st.
That's right, before it was approved.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 12:12:52 PM
Seems that if there was a "protocol" insisting on "prescreening for high risk groups", the much-praised Yukon program didn't get the memo.
The rollout in Ontario lasted one day before they announced that they had run out - in Toronto, only two centres were open, and they closed the line an hour after rollout started. My wife was in the line and just made it in (Carl's in the high risk group).
So I say that the "explaination" that the Ontarians were giving the vaccine to everyone and that is why they ran out, and that Ontario had the same per capita amount of vaccine as the Yukon = obviously untrue, based on the facts. How can the Yukon hand the stuff out like candy to everyone no problem (according to BB) , and Ontario shuts down after one hour if they all had the same per capita amount?
Re-read my post you grumpy central Canadian urban elite.
people without easy access to medical care got priority. That includes Whitehorse. For all BB's defence of the place it is still a minor community that has to medivac its serious cases out to other urban centres. Therefore it got priority. I have no problem with that.
Ontario ran out because they screwed up on who they gave it too - eg all comers. Of course they ran out doing that.
I heard that Alberta ran out too?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 12:32:31 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 12:12:52 PM
Seems that if there was a "protocol" insisting on "prescreening for high risk groups", the much-praised Yukon program didn't get the memo.
The rollout in Ontario lasted one day before they announced that they had run out - in Toronto, only two centres were open, and they closed the line an hour after rollout started. My wife was in the line and just made it in (Carl's in the high risk group).
So I say that the "explaination" that the Ontarians were giving the vaccine to everyone and that is why they ran out, and that Ontario had the same per capita amount of vaccine as the Yukon = obviously untrue, based on the facts. How can the Yukon hand the stuff out like candy to everyone no problem (according to BB) , and Ontario shuts down after one hour if they all had the same per capita amount?
Re-read my post you grumpy central Canadian urban elite.
people without easy access to medical care got priority. That includes Whitehorse. For all BB's defence of the place it is still a minor community that has to medivac its serious cases out to other urban centres. Therefore it got priority. I have no problem with that.
Ontario ran out because they screwed up on who they gave it too - eg all comers. Of course they ran out doing that.
Note that Yukon
was giving it out to all commers. Yet they didn't run out.
It is easy to run a "great program" - when you get more resources. Somehow, the Yukon got enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone. That isn't a reason to praise the Yukon program - more a reason to praise the feds, for giving them priority.
OTOH, it is impossible to run a good program when the resources are insufficient. While it is true that the Ontario program was a mess, particularly in Toronto, the fact remains that it was mostly caused by an insufficiency of vaccine. Two clinics open for one hour is not enough for a city of almost three million people, no matter how they screened them.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 12:38:31 PM
Note that Yukon was giving it out to all commers. Yet they didn't run out.
I am not sure it if is my terrible writing or you not actually reading what I write.
They Yukon is one of those regions that got priority shipments. You and I are not in an isolated community without easy access to the state of the art health care in this country and so we didnt.
Of course Toronto ran out of Vaccine and Yukon didnt. They didnt send out 40 millions doses. They sent out doses as they were produced to all the regions and some provinces messed up in their delivery so that the first batch didnt go to all the people that should have recieved it. You repeating that the Yukon didnt run out doesnt change that fact.
well no fever. so It was just a sinus headache. A cold, I guess. feeling better today but still a bit logy from headachy sleep.
It's broken out in the Law Review Office, but people who are manifestly sick and feverish wont' leave.
Whatev, I've been vaccinated. Bring it on, Apollo.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on November 03, 2009, 01:42:32 PM
well no fever. so It was just a sinus headache. A cold, I guess. feeling better today but still a bit logy from headachy sleep.
Good news.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 12:02:20 PM
The way I understand it is that each region was given the same per capita amounts. If our health minister (BC) is to be believed, Ontario ran into trouble when they didn't ration the vaccinations according to the protocols that were intially informally agreed to by all the health care providers accross the country. Apparently the Ontario government allowed the vaccinations to be given to anyone who showed up without any prescreening for whether they fit into the group that should have received it. Also that added to confusion about who should and should not recieve the shot because media in Ontario were reporting a protocol that didnt apply in BC (as an example).
Yeah.
Here at work I have quite a few "for examples."
A woman and her son (aged 10) getting vacinated on Friday. None of which are in the "high risk" category.
A woman and her son (aged 13) getting vaccinated on Sunday. None of which are in the "high risk" category.
Imminization of entire families. For instance, if I am a parent of four children, one of whom is under 5, (the cutoff age for high priority), I could line up with my entire family and get immunized.
The Ontario policy, so far, seems to have been: "If you're willing to line up, then we'll vaccinate you."
EDIT: I'M actually counting on everyone at work jumping the queue. That way if everyone I work with is immunized, there's less reason for me to bother. :lol:
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 12:38:31 PM
Note that Yukon was giving it out to all commers. Yet they didn't run out.
I am not sure it if is my terrible writing or you not actually reading what I write.
They Yukon is one of those regions that got priority shipments. You and I are not in an isolated community without easy access to the state of the art health care in this country and so we didnt.
Of course Toronto ran out of Vaccine and Yukon didnt. They didnt send out 40 millions doses. They sent out doses as they were produced to all the regions and some provinces messed up in their delivery so that the first batch didnt go to all the people that should have recieved it. You repeating that the Yukon didnt run out doesnt change that fact.
You are missing my point - which is that praising a roll-out in a region that got special resources makes no sense. Of course the Yukon roll-out was "better" than the Ontario one - they got fully stocked and Ontario didn't. That would be true no matter what Ontario did.
Plus, I don't for a minute think that "Ontario messed up" explains Ontario running out in an
hour at
2 clinics for all of Toronto. That isn't enough vaccine to give to high-risk groups no matter
how dilligently they screened.
To my mind, the fault for that falls at least in part on the feds. Allegedly, Ontario got 70,000 doses. Dunno if that is true or not, but that's what I heard. If true, no wonder the roll out was a fiasco - 70,000 for a province of what, 13 million people?
Now admittedly, the Ontario roll-out was a disaster, but the fact is that even if they had done it properly, it would still have been a disaster.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 02:30:19 PM
You are missing my point - which is that praising a roll-out in a region that got special resources makes no sense.
Now I know you are not actually reading my posts. The praise for the roll out has NOTHING to do with wether or not they ran out. The priase for the roll out was the way in which they organized it by anticipating the long lines and organizing events to accomodate that.
This has nothing to do with you and the reason why Ontario ran out. This is about how well the Yukon dealt with the crowds. They recieved no special resources with that. It was just plain old fashion ingenuity.
I'm confused.
What did the feds do right/wrong?
I think it's obvious that Ontario's problem is that they couldn't screen their first week properly. Only 70k doses for 13 millions is not enough sure, but you aren't suppose to vaccinate everybody in the first week.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 03, 2009, 02:46:10 PM
I'm confused.
What did the feds do right/wrong?
I think it's obvious that Ontario's problem is that they couldn't screen their first week properly. Only 70k doses for 13 millions is not enough sure, but you aren't suppose to vaccinate everybody in the first week.
The quote I heard from Iggy this morning is that the Feds should never have given control to the provinces over how the vaccine would be distributed. He is clearly playing to the Ontario crowd where the screw up occurred. But that will not play well at all in the West or Quebec.
Shit no.
:lol:
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 02:35:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 02:30:19 PM
You are missing my point - which is that praising a roll-out in a region that got special resources makes no sense.
Now I know you are not actually reading my posts. The praise for the roll out has NOTHING to do with wether or not they ran out. The priase for the roll out was the way in which they organized it by anticipating the long lines and organizing events to accomodate that.
This has nothing to do with you and the reason why Ontario ran out. This is about how well the Yukon dealt with the crowds. They recieved no special resources with that. It was just plain old fashion ingenuity.
And you don't think that, you know,
actually having enough vaccine to do everyone had anything to do with how smoothly the vaccination roll out went? :lol:
Give you two scenarios:
1. a small community of a few tens of thousands that
has enough vaccine to do everyone; and
2. A huge city of several millions which
only has enough vaccine to do a tiny purportion of the populationWhich is going to prove the more "difficult" roll-out, do *you* think? :D
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 02:49:34 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 03, 2009, 02:46:10 PM
I'm confused.
What did the feds do right/wrong?
I think it's obvious that Ontario's problem is that they couldn't screen their first week properly. Only 70k doses for 13 millions is not enough sure, but you aren't suppose to vaccinate everybody in the first week.
The quote I heard from Iggy this morning is that the Feds should never have given control to the provinces over how the vaccine would be distributed. He is clearly playing to the Ontario crowd where the screw up occurred. But that will not play well at all in the West or Quebec.
That doesn't make any sense. How will pointing out that Ontario screwed up play well in Ontario?
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:03:17 PM
That doesn't make any sense. How will pointing out that Ontario screwed up play well in Ontario?
I think he means that it plays well as an anti-Fed (read Harper) campaign.
Quote from: Josephus on November 03, 2009, 03:16:24 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:03:17 PM
That doesn't make any sense. How will pointing out that Ontario screwed up play well in Ontario?
I think he means that it plays well as an anti-Fed (read Harper) campaign.
Well, naturally the opposition is going to be anti-Harper, and try to pin the blame for any screw up on him.
The issue is whether they have a point or not. Certainly there has been a lot of confusion and uncertainty about the vaccine roll-out. How much of this confusion is the fault of the feds (who control the vaccine supply) and how much is the fault of the provinces (who control the overall roll-out plans) and how much is the fault of the municipalities (who it seems control the details of how the plans are implemented) is going to be a matter of finger-pointing for a while.
As for CC, seems he's already made up his mind: Ontario screwed up and that is that. Myself, I think the answer is more complex - I don't deny Ontario has screwed up but I think there have been failures on all levels: failures to ensure adequate supplies, among others.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:03:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 02:49:34 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 03, 2009, 02:46:10 PM
I'm confused.
What did the feds do right/wrong?
I think it's obvious that Ontario's problem is that they couldn't screen their first week properly. Only 70k doses for 13 millions is not enough sure, but you aren't suppose to vaccinate everybody in the first week.
The quote I heard from Iggy this morning is that the Feds should never have given control to the provinces over how the vaccine would be distributed. He is clearly playing to the Ontario crowd where the screw up occurred. But that will not play well at all in the West or Quebec.
That doesn't make any sense. How will pointing out that Ontario screwed up play well in Ontario?
No offense Malthus but you have some kind of reading block on today. Iggy's point is pretty obvious. If the Feds had never handed over authority to the provinces the screw up in Ontario would never have happened. The problem is that people in the rest of the Country like to have some local control and his message, clearly designed for Ontario, will tank in the rest of the Country - including Whitehorse where the people should be justifiably proud with how well they handled the roll out.:P
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:23:36 PM
As for CC, seems he's already made up his mind: Ontario screwed up and that is that. Myself, I think the answer is more complex - I don't deny Ontario has screwed up but I think there have been failures on all levels: failures to ensure adequate supplies, among others.
So you think it would have been better for the feds to hold back delivery for a few weeks until there was enough to go around?
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:01:59 PM
And you don't think that, you know, actually having enough vaccine to do everyone had anything to do with how smoothly the vaccination roll out went? :lol:
Give you two scenarios:
1. a small community of a few tens of thousands that has enough vaccine to do everyone; and
2. A huge city of several millions which only has enough vaccine to do a tiny purportion of the population
Which is going to prove the more "difficult" roll-out, do *you* think? :D
The city that had a few thousand could have screwed up in a different way if they didnt make plans to accomodate everyone coming for a vaccine within a short period of time. They didnt. They planned well and executed their plan well. That is why they are getting praise.
The urban centres had different problems. They had a limited supply and they had to communicate to people who should and should not be getting the shots in the initial stages. Other provinces handled that well. Ontario did not.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 03:49:24 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:03:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 02:49:34 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 03, 2009, 02:46:10 PM
I'm confused.
What did the feds do right/wrong?
I think it's obvious that Ontario's problem is that they couldn't screen their first week properly. Only 70k doses for 13 millions is not enough sure, but you aren't suppose to vaccinate everybody in the first week.
The quote I heard from Iggy this morning is that the Feds should never have given control to the provinces over how the vaccine would be distributed. He is clearly playing to the Ontario crowd where the screw up occurred. But that will not play well at all in the West or Quebec.
That doesn't make any sense. How will pointing out that Ontario screwed up play well in Ontario?
No offense Malthus but you have some kind of reading block on today. Iggy's point is pretty obvious. If the Feds had never handed over authority to the provinces the screw up in Ontario would never have happened. The problem is that people in the rest of the Country like to have some local control and his message, clearly designed for Ontario, will tank in the rest of the Country - including Whitehorse where the people should be justifiably proud with how well they handled the roll out.:P
Sorry, but this still makes no sense. Claiming that Ontario screwing up will play well in Ontario sounds like Western-I-hate-Ontario doublethink to me.
Whitehorse should be proud - that the feds were nice enough to give them all vaccine. :D
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:23:36 PM
As for CC, seems he's already made up his mind: Ontario screwed up and that is that. Myself, I think the answer is more complex - I don't deny Ontario has screwed up but I think there have been failures on all levels: failures to ensure adequate supplies, among others.
So you think it would have been better for the feds to hold back delivery for a few weeks until there was enough to go around?
From what I heard, there was screw-up at the federal level over communicating exactly how much vaccine was available.
Isn't knowing how much is comming a somewhat vital planning point?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 03:53:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 03:01:59 PM
And you don't think that, you know, actually having enough vaccine to do everyone had anything to do with how smoothly the vaccination roll out went? :lol:
Give you two scenarios:
1. a small community of a few tens of thousands that has enough vaccine to do everyone; and
2. A huge city of several millions which only has enough vaccine to do a tiny purportion of the population
Which is going to prove the more "difficult" roll-out, do *you* think? :D
The city that had a few thousand could have screwed up in a different way if they didnt make plans to accomodate everyone coming for a vaccine within a short period of time. They didnt. They planned well and executed their plan well. That is why they are getting praise.
The urban centres had different problems. They had a limited supply and they had to communicate to people who should and should not be getting the shots in the initial stages. Other provinces handled that well. Ontario did not.
Thing is you are very much comparing apples to oranges. A roll-out in a small community
where the benificent feds were nice enough to provide enough vaccine for the whole population does not create anything like the same problems of a roll-out where only a tiny amount of vaccine is provided for a major city.
Saying that the one went smoothly and the other went poorly says exactly nothing, because you would expect that.
Seeing the words 'Yukon' and 'crowds' in the same sentence makes no sense.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 04:15:23 PM
Saying that the one went smoothly and the other went poorly says exactly nothing, because you would expect that.
Think about what you are saying. You would expect hundreds of people descending on clinics used to handling small numbers to go smoothly. Really?
Quote from: Iormlund on November 03, 2009, 04:18:04 PM
Seeing the words 'Yukon' and 'crowd' in the same post makes no sense.
Exactly.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 04:18:31 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 04:15:23 PM
Saying that the one went smoothly and the other went poorly says exactly nothing, because you would expect that.
Think about what you are saying. You would expect hundreds of people descending on clinics used to handling small numbers to go smoothly. Really?
Think about what you are saying. A small community of a few thousand where everyone knows there is enough vaccine for all vs. a major city where everyone knows that there *isn't* enough vaccine for all (and where the shortage is even worse than everyone was told). Which will prove the most problematic, when panic sets in?
Canada is panicking!
Calm down Canucklestans, it is going to be ok!
Canada fails. Film at 11.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 04:22:18 PM
Think about what you are saying. A small community of a few thousand where everyone knows there is enough vaccine for all vs. a major city where everyone knows that there *isn't* enough vaccine for all (and where the shortage is even worse than everyone was told). Which will prove the most problematic, when panic sets in?
Give me a break. The only reason for panick is because healthy people who were not at risk were not told that it would take a few weeks before there was enough vaccine to get to them. For some reason everyone else outside Ontario realized this and now Iggy is playing to some misplaced Central Canadian sense of entitlement that if Whitehorse got everyone vaccinated so should Toronto!
Don't blame Iggy.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/auditorgeneral/article/720482--ottawa-ill-prepared-for-emergencies-auditor-general?bn=1 (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/auditorgeneral/article/720482--ottawa-ill-prepared-for-emergencies-auditor-general?bn=1)
Looks like the Auditor General is chiming in, and Harper's to blame.
Canada's Auditor General Sheila Fraser says the Conservative government has dropped the ball in preparing Canada for pandemics and other national emergencies.
The broadside comes at a time when an increasing number of fingers are being pointed at the federal government for its handling of the problem-plagued cross-country H1N1 vaccination plan.
In her annual fall report Tuesday, Fraser said a federal emergency response plan, instead of being implemented, is still in the draft stage after almost six years of waiting for Public Safety Canada to get it approved.
"We found that the plan has not been formally endorsed by the (Conservative) government or other federal departments," she said in her opening statement to reporters. "I have no idea as to why the plan is not approved. I think that would be an excellent question for government."
The report stated that Public Safety Canada, established in 2003 to establish the federal government's ability to respond to emergencies, has not exercised the leadership necessary to coordinate emergency management.
"Canada needs to have a planned and coordinated approach in place so that federal, provincial and municipal agencies know what part they will play in managing a crisis," Fraser said.
"For H1N1, coordination ... is not as efficient as it could be," Fraser told reporters.
Ottawa has reassured Canadians for months there would be enough H1N1 vaccine, but hundreds of thousands are growingly increasingly frustrated at the lengthy delays in getting their shots or at not being able to get them at all.
"Until it is clearly established how Public Safety Canada will work with other departments, it will be difficult for it to truly coordinate the federal response to emergency situation." Fraser stated.
The report noted that Public Safety Canada has made "considerable progress" in federal emergency coordination through its Government Operations Centre.
"The centre produced regular situation awareness reports for issues such as the H1N1 virus pandemic," the report stated.
The report also questions the government's ability to respond to the aftermath of a chemical, biological or nuclear attack because of a lack of coordinated response and training, and questions why there is no specific plan to protect critical infrastructure such as water treatment plants or power grids.
"Public Safety has provided no guidance to departments to ensure that they determine what critical infrastructure needs to be protected," the report stated.
Time to bring down the gov't. ;)
The auditor has had time to actually "audit" how the H1N1 vaccine has been handled? Seems to me she is jumping to a conclusion here.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2009, 04:58:09 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 04:22:18 PM
Think about what you are saying. A small community of a few thousand where everyone knows there is enough vaccine for all vs. a major city where everyone knows that there *isn't* enough vaccine for all (and where the shortage is even worse than everyone was told). Which will prove the most problematic, when panic sets in?
Give me a break. The only reason for panick is because healthy people who were not at risk were not told that it would take a few weeks before there was enough vaccine to get to them. For some reason everyone else outside Ontario realized this and now Iggy is playing to some misplaced Central Canadian sense of entitlement that if Whitehorse got everyone vaccinated so should Toronto!
No one is saying that since Whitehorse got immunized so should Toronto - except you.
What I'm saying is that you can't compare the two roll-outs, and that there is at least some evidence that the feds screwed up - not just Ontario.
From the newspaper account of the Auditor General's report:
QuoteOttawa has reassured Canadians for months there would be enough H1N1 vaccine, but hundreds of thousands are growingly increasingly frustrated at the lengthy delays in getting their shots or at not being able to get them at all.
As for "panic", that's a media whipped up thing. The feds did not help, by basically misinforming everyone about how much vaccine was available.
In your haste to trash Iggy, you are reaching. I have nothing against trashing Iggy, mind; just don't end up making him look good by saying stuff that makes no sense or is contrary to the facts. :D
Also, contrary to your oft-repeated assertions, rollout problems ain't limited to Ontario.
Rollout problems in Manitoba:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/11/03/man-h1n1-clinics-reopen.html
Rollout problems in Alberta:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/11/03/calgary-h1n1-vaccine-alberta-clinics-opening.html
Quote from: Iormlund on November 03, 2009, 04:18:04 PM
Seeing the words 'Yukon' and 'crowds' in the same sentence makes no sense.
:blurgh:
On the other hand, I love seeing a Yukon hijack that I didn't even participate in. :lol:
Heh this one is amusing:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/Braid+Alberta+shot+plan+true+Soviet+style+debacle/2174516/story.html
QuoteOnly Alberta has been forced to close all vaccination clinics for four full days. It's still a mystery why our authorities decided to go for mass immunization rather than the more controlled approach adopted by most other provinces.
But there is a clue in Health Minister Ron Liepert's comment last week about avoiding "Soviet mode."
He was talking about his distaste for asking people to prove they're high risk in order to get a shot. But the minister soon got exactly what he dreads--a classic Soviet-mode breakdown.
Only in Ontario, Eh? Try Alberta. :lol:
Incedentally, people will always complain.
I'm out on circuit in some very remote communities. Some of the court staff we're talking about running over to the local health clinic to get the flu shot, since there is absolutely zero line-up, so as to avoid the line-ups in Whitehorse.
Of course you can still *get* the shot in Whitehorse, unlike many other places.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 07:48:31 PM
Only in Ontario, Eh? Try Alberta. :lol:
I love seeing Alberta compared to the Soviet Union.
Poor Neil. :D
Quote from: Josephus on November 03, 2009, 07:51:59 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 07:48:31 PM
Only in Ontario, Eh? Try Alberta. :lol:
I love seeing Alberta compared to the Soviet Union.
Poor Neil. :D
[CC] The authour must be playing into some Albertan sense of entitlement. Everyone else in Canada has accepted shortages as natural [/CC]
;)
Quote from: Josephus on November 03, 2009, 07:51:59 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 07:48:31 PM
Only in Ontario, Eh? Try Alberta. :lol:
I love seeing Alberta compared to the Soviet Union.
Poor Neil. :D
Only idiots are trying to get the vaccine. I mean really, it's the flu people. Chill out.
Actually, there's a clinic near my tower, and it there was a lineup of chinks wearing SARS masks. Hillarious.
Slovakia has closed several border crossings to the Ukraine were there's a six digit number of infected. Schools are closed in Ukraine and all large public assemblies have been cancelled.
Some after-school institutes have closed here in Korea, and quite a few schools and institutes have closed for a week if enough students/teachers get infected. My school currently has over 100 students out (out of ~1600 students) with Swine flu - mostly 2nd and 3rd year students. Back in early October we closed for 2 days before the holidays, giving us a week off, when there were maybe 60 1st year students sick, and fewer upper classmen.
Montreal has changed its sequence of vaccination.
Now pregnant women and kids aged 5 or less all pass in priority, then kids with immunodepresson or chronical problems, then adults with immunodepresson or chronical problems (the latter on November 23rd). The rest of the population, including people like me whose girlfriend and mother are people with chronical problems, are to be vaccinated only starting December 5th.
GF is going to get vaccinated on the South Shore with the rest of her family, to speed it up, since she is still listed as a resident there. Me, since I am a Montreal resident for the last three years, have to suck it up and wait my turn, thanks to all those jerkasses who didn't wait their fucking turn to get vaccinated, including old farting geezers who have partial immunity anyway old people who traveled in buses outside of their respective regions to clot the waiting lines to steal someone else's dose get vaccinated ahead. That's what you get for respecting the deadlines and remaining civil : get shoved to the end of the line, while the clods won and got vaccinated. Next time I'll rush to get my vaccine, seems the percentage of success is higher that way. :rolleyes:
It also means that in Canada's third metropolis the active population will be vaccinated dead last AND after the rest of the province. Just on the other side of the Saint-Lawrence River, healthy adults will be vaccinated starting November 30th. I don't know what the sequence of vaccination in Toronto and Vancouver is, but there is something nonsensical about vaccinating big urban areas, and thus the greatest concentration of people in a territory, last rather than first if one wants to stop a pandemic. Hell, even healthy people in Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, whose population density is even lower than some parts of Siberia, get access to the vaccine earlier than Montreal. <_<
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2009, 07:48:31 PM
Heh this one is amusing:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/Braid+Alberta+shot+plan+true+Soviet+style+debacle/2174516/story.html
QuoteOnly Alberta has been forced to close all vaccination clinics for four full days. It's still a mystery why our authorities decided to go for mass immunization rather than the more controlled approach adopted by most other provinces.
But there is a clue in Health Minister Ron Liepert's comment last week about avoiding "Soviet mode."
He was talking about his distaste for asking people to prove they're high risk in order to get a shot. But the minister soon got exactly what he dreads--a classic Soviet-mode breakdown.
Only in Ontario, Eh? Try Alberta. :lol:
I have always thought that the Albertans secretly wanted to be just like Ontario. :D
You're going to die Drakken, just like the rest of us. I guess drinking the RX biz coolaid couldn't save you.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2009, 12:43:25 PM
I have always thought that the Albertans secretly wanted to be just like Ontario. :D
I dunno if Neil is ever going to forgive you. :lol:
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 04, 2009, 12:44:55 PM
You're going to die Drakken, just like the rest of us. I guess drinking the RX biz coolaid couldn't save you.
Nah, respecting the damn deadlines couldn't save me. Good people finish last, indeed.
That too.
Actually, your mistake is living on the island.
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2009, 08:55:30 PM
Only idiots are trying to get the vaccine. I mean really, it's the flu people. Chill out.
Actually, there's a clinic near my tower, and it there was a lineup of chinks wearing SARS masks. Hillarious.
What's wrong with you, man?? Do you not understand the severity of the situation?? :mad:
And what is it with Asians wearing the SARS masks? You see them all over around here, too, and we're in the middle of the midwest, for goodness sakes.
Quote from: merithyn on November 04, 2009, 01:44:40 PMAnd what is it with Asians wearing the SARS masks? You see them all over around here, too, and we're in the middle of the midwest, for goodness sakes.
It is considered polite to wear a face mask if you have a cold or other infectious disease and you're out an about. That way you are less likely to breathe, sneeze or accidentally spit germs on people and things. It's not about "OMG, I might get infected I better wear a mask", it's "I'm somewhat contagious, this can help limit the spread."
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2009, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 04, 2009, 01:44:40 PMAnd what is it with Asians wearing the SARS masks? You see them all over around here, too, and we're in the middle of the midwest, for goodness sakes.
It is considered polite to wear a face mask if you have a cold or other infectious disease and you're out an about. That way you are less likely to breathe, sneeze or accidentally spit germs on people and things. It's not about "OMG, I might get infected I better wear a mask", it's "I'm somewhat contagious, this can help limit the spread."
Politeness is often hard to recognize in today's world. Especially when one is prepared to initially think the worst of someone.
Quote from: merithyn on November 04, 2009, 01:44:40 PM
What's wrong with you, man?? Do you not understand the severity of the situation?? :mad:
I'm listening to my body, and my body tells me that I'm invincible, and that no lower organism would dare affect my well-being.
Quote from: Neil on November 04, 2009, 02:19:42 PM
I'm listening to my body, and my body tells me that I'm invincible, and that no lower organism would dare affect my well-being.
As anyone here ever met you in RL? I'd be interested in hearing a comparison between your bloated online ego and the actual RL thing. :P
G.
I believe both Maximus and Barrister have met him, not sure who if anybody else.
Sask
Funny thing is they all lived to tell the tale. Neil cant be that bad.
The big news is that the Calgary Flames and their families got to jump the queue. Heads have rolled, people are angry.
Ordinary people are inferior.
Quote from: Neil on November 04, 2009, 08:55:03 PM
The big news is that the Calgary Flames and their families got to jump the queue. Heads have rolled, people are angry.
Ordinary people are inferior.
Seems reasonable; could Canada survive an NHL shutdown?
Quote from: sbr on November 04, 2009, 09:12:37 PM
Seems reasonable; could Canada survive an NHL shutdown?
Of course. We survived the lockout.
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2009, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 04, 2009, 01:44:40 PMAnd what is it with Asians wearing the SARS masks? You see them all over around here, too, and we're in the middle of the midwest, for goodness sakes.
It is considered polite to wear a face mask if you have a cold or other infectious disease and you're out an about. That way you are less likely to breathe, sneeze or accidentally spit germs on people and things. It's not about "OMG, I might get infected I better wear a mask", it's "I'm somewhat contagious, this can help limit the spread."
Well, it's also a bit of the former, too. Certainly that's why many teachers are wearing masks right now: "I have to spend all day around these potentially diseased little wankers, I'd better protect myself".
Hospitals are offering free swine flu shots for teachers here in Nanjing.
Which raises the quandary: do I dare go to a Chinese hospital for the free shot?
My wallet says "yes", but my common sense says "no".
Do they use lead syringes?
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2009, 01:54:41 PM
It is considered polite to wear a face mask if you have a cold or other infectious disease and you're out an about. That way you are less likely to breathe, sneeze or accidentally spit germs on people and things. It's not about "OMG, I might get infected I better wear a mask", it's "I'm somewhat contagious, this can help limit the spread."
Ah, makes sense. Are the masks effective?
Quote from: katmai on November 04, 2009, 02:27:38 PM
I believe both Maximus and Barrister have met him, not sure who if anybody else.
Based on what Max has said, I would very much like to meet Neil in person. :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2009, 02:04:07 PM
Politeness is often hard to recognize in today's world. Especially when one is prepared to initially think the worst of someone.
:yes:
I'm sure Meri dislikes Asians.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 01, 2009, 11:00:35 AM
My youngest son is running a fever (not too high though) and it looks like my wife (who never gets sick) is getting sick as well.
My wife has H1N1 and her lungs sound terrible. If she doesnt get better soon she might have to be hospitalized.
Meri, I need to you cross those fingers of yours.
Quote from: garbon on November 05, 2009, 09:37:35 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2009, 02:04:07 PM
Politeness is often hard to recognize in today's world. Especially when one is prepared to initially think the worst of someone.
:yes:
I'm sure Meri dislikes Asians.
I was thinking of Neil.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2009, 03:32:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 01, 2009, 11:00:35 AM
My youngest son is running a fever (not too high though) and it looks like my wife (who never gets sick) is getting sick as well.
My wife has H1N1 and her lungs sound terrible. If she doesnt get better soon she might have to be hospitalized.
Meri, I need to you cross those fingers of yours.
Shit, I'm sorry to hear that. Hope she gets better soon.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2009, 03:32:08 PM
My wife has H1N1 and her lungs sound terrible. If she doesnt get better soon she might have to be hospitalized.
Meri, I need to you cross those fingers of yours.
That's awful, CC. I really hope she gets better soon, without needing to be hospitalized. :(
How're the tikes?
Oh, and six kids in Riley's class were sent home today from school with H1N1. And they said this was the downswing. :(
G'luck canuck. :(
Oh shit, CC. I hope she'll be okey. :console:
It's been 24 hours now. Is she feeling any better? Got any update for us? :(
Thanks for the well wishes everyone. The worst is over and she is recovering. Had a bit of a scare but everything is ok now.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 06, 2009, 09:00:48 PM
Thanks for the well wishes everyone. The worst is over and she is recovering. Had a bit of a scare but everything is ok now.
Several of the kids at the school who got H1N1 ended up with bronchitis and/or pneumonia, but only one ended up in the hospital. Hang in there, CC. Sounds like the worst of it is passed. Expect her to be weak as a kitten for a bit, even well after the fever is gone.
QuoteIn Europe, most swine flu shots by invitation only
By MARIA CHENG, AP Medical Writer
LONDON – In Britain, there are no long lines of people seeking swine flu vaccine. Doctor's offices aren't swamped with desperate calls. And there are no cries of injustice that the vaccine is going to wealthy corporations or healthy people who don't really need it.
Here, and across most of Europe, vaccine to protect against the pandemic flu is mostly given by invitation only to those at highest risk for flu complications.
"That is one of the great advantages of the British health system," said Dr. Steve Field, president of the Royal College of General Physicians. "We have a list of all the names of patients who qualify to be vaccinated."
When Britain unrolled its pandemic vaccination program last month, it designed its campaign to ensure that priority groups — including pregnant women, health workers and those with chronic health problems like diabetes, cancer and AIDS — get the shots first.
Instead of advertising that vaccine had arrived and waiting for the lines to form, Britain's National Health Service sent letters, inviting all those who qualify to make an appointment and get the shots first.
Field said Britain's socialized health care system allows the country to target people who need to be vaccinated quickly: "It's not like the U.S., where it's the survival of the fittest and the richest."
Just this week, Americans learned that Wall Street giants Goldman Sachs and Citigroup got swine flu vaccine, even as many doctor's offices and community clinics still had none. The companies obtained the vaccine through standard procedures, and it was targeted to employees who met criteria for vaccination. But the perception of unfairness set off an outcry.
In the United Kingdom, the general population will be offered the shot after priority groups have been taken care of, probably in about two months. For now, only children with health problems are a priority; healthy children are not.
Similar programs are being carried out in other European countries, all of which have socialized medicine:
• In Germany, doctors have also been contacting high-priority patients to come in for their swine flu shot, though other people who have asked for one have not been turned away.
• In Sweden, Denmark and Finland, some local governments are sending invitations to people in high-risk groups or posting information about vaccine availability on their Web sites.
• So far, France is only vaccinating health care workers. Its health minister said 6 million people in priority groups would start getting invitations to be vaccinated next week.
In North America, swine flu vaccination has largely been a free-for-all, although some U.S. states have recently beefed up their screening process to ensure pregnant women, children and people with health problems get shots before healthy older people.
In Canada, which has a form of socialized medicine, health officials began an investigation this week after professional hockey and basketball players got the vaccine ahead of thousands of children.
Another trend has also affected the trans-Atlantic vaccination picture: While Americans and Canadians appear to be clamoring for the vaccine, many Europeans appear indifferent.
Verona Hall, a London-based midwife, said that among her dozens of pregnant patients none has accepted the invitation to take the shot. The reluctance among pregnant women stems in part from fears the vaccine could hurt their babies, but other priority groups have also shown little interest in the flu shot.
Hall herself recently received a text message asking her to book an appointment to get the vaccine. She declined. "It just doesn't seem that serious here," she said. "Maybe if there are a lot more cases, more people will consider having it. But right now it isn't a priority."
British officials estimate there have been more than 600,000 swine flu cases since the virus was identified in April. In the U.S., experts say there have been millions.
In the U.S., the federal government is paying for the vaccine and rationing supplies to each state. Then state and local health departments decide where it goes next — from schools to doctor's offices to community health clinics and even some large companies with health directors.
On Thursday, the director of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention wrote to local health departments, asking them to ensure the vaccine is getting to high-risk groups first. Dr. Thomas Frieden warned that decisions that appear to send vaccine beyond high-priority groups "have the potential to undermine the credibility of the program."
Lenny Marcus, a public health expert at Harvard University, said the anxiety among Americans about vaccine shortages may have a snowball effect.
Early on, U.S. officials predicted there would be 120 million vaccine doses available by October. They later slashed that estimate, and as of this week there were only about 38 million doses in the country.
"When people believe there's a shortage, that increases demand," Marcus said. "The images of people lining up for hours to get the vaccine, which is in short supply, has a big impact. ... Parents with kids may suddenly be desperate to get them immunized."
In contrast, there are no pictures in the British tabloids of crowded clinics. And the Department of Health won't reveal how many doses are available, saying only that enough vaccine to cover the entire population — 60 million people — had been ordered.
For now, the biggest problem confronting Britain's vaccination effort is not a shortage or public demand. In recent weeks, postal strikes have delayed delivery of about 35 million letters. Health officials worry that high-risk patients waiting for their swine flu vaccine invitation letters might never get them.
"The timing isn't great," said Field, adding doctors would also be telephoning or sending patients text messages if they qualified to get a swine flu vaccine. "So far we have not had a lot of terribly anxious people here."
___
Associated Press writers Kirsten Grieshaber in Berlin, Ian MacDougall in Oslo and Karl Ritter in Stockholm contributed to this report.
First bolded sentence is Orwellian, second is hyperbole.
Quote from: citizen k on November 06, 2009, 11:58:52 PM
In Europe, most swine flu shots by invitation only
And in Portugal, they are not only by invitation, but only to the most vital members of society.
Which is why all the politicians were added to the 'priority' list, in front even of the children. :mad:
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 06, 2009, 09:00:48 PM
Thanks for the well wishes everyone. The worst is over and she is recovering. Had a bit of a scare but everything is ok now.
I'm relieved... :)
Hopefully her situation will stabilize in the next 48 hours.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F376%2F15942326391365017893305.jpg&hash=dd17ff6131c39ce1348a6cb728966f2e000c201a)
Quote from: citizen k on November 06, 2009, 11:58:52 PM
First bolded sentence is Orwellian, second is hyperbole.
No doubt people can go private if they are really desperate for the jab. I find the lack of hysteria here in the UK quite a relief, perhaps we haven't totally lost it after all.
CK are you considering getting the shot?
V
Quote"It's not like the U.S., where it's the survival of the fittest and the richest."
lolz.
Quote"It's not like the U.S., where it's the survival of the fittest and the richest."
:rolleyes:
Only winners in a Thunderdome can get the jab.
I have a cold.
Still flu free. No vaccine.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 07, 2009, 05:53:25 PM
I have a cold.
Still flu free. No vaccine.
Do you intend to keep a tally every fucking day until dec 7th?
G.
They finally have the adjuvant-free vaccine for my wife, so we went down to the vaccination clinic.
The line-up was miniscule compared to the day I went.
However...
when my wife is sitting with the nurse, moments from getting the shot, this young girl(maybe 13) sitting only 10' away from us, promptly faints and with a loud "thunk" hits her head on the floor. The nurses did the best they could to keep everyone calm, and said apparently the girl has quite the phobia from needles, but still 20 minutes later when we were leaving the paramedics had been called, and the girl was still on the floor. :(
Quote from: Barrister on November 07, 2009, 08:22:36 PM
However...
when my wife is sitting with the nurse, moments from getting the shot, this young girl(maybe 13) sitting only 10' away from us, promptly faints and with a loud "thunk" hits her head on the floor. The nurses did the best they could to keep everyone calm, and said apparently the girl has quite the phobia from needles, but still 20 minutes later when we were leaving the paramedics had been called, and the girl was still on the floor. :(
Wow, that's one hell of a vagal shock due to trypanophobia. :huh:
Did they inject her while she was out?
Quote from: Faeelin on November 07, 2009, 11:19:34 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F376%2F15942326391365017893305.jpg&hash=dd17ff6131c39ce1348a6cb728966f2e000c201a)
:lol: Awesome!
Quote from: Valdemar on November 07, 2009, 04:31:34 PM
CK are you considering getting the shot?
V
No, although I might ask if my doctor thinks I should.
Quote from: Drakken on November 07, 2009, 02:27:14 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 06, 2009, 09:00:48 PM
Thanks for the well wishes everyone. The worst is over and she is recovering. Had a bit of a scare but everything is ok now.
I'm relieved... :)
Hopefully her situation will stabilize in the next 48 hours.
Almost fully recovered. It seemed to leave as quickly as it came. Only a bit of a lingering cough now.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 08, 2009, 10:23:48 AM
Almost fully recovered. It seemed to leave as quickly as it came. Only a bit of a lingering cough now.
And she tested positive for H1N1? I'm somewhat amazed that she's not feeling terribly weak. Most of the kids we saw with it really were for a week or longer after the major symptoms were gone.
Quote from: merithyn on November 08, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 08, 2009, 10:23:48 AM
Almost fully recovered. It seemed to leave as quickly as it came. Only a bit of a lingering cough now.
And she tested positive for H1N1? I'm somewhat amazed that she's not feeling terribly weak. Most of the kids we saw with it really were for a week or longer after the major symptoms were gone.
She is tougher than your average kid.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 08, 2009, 04:02:16 PM
She is tougher than your average kid.
I'm sorry. I worded that poorly. Roughly 1/3 of the staff had H1N1 as well as the kids, and the adults were no different than the kids. Weak, tired easily, exhausted by lunchtime, etc. Glad to hear that she hasn't had to deal with that. In the end, the point is that she's well now.
Quote from: Grallon on November 07, 2009, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 07, 2009, 05:53:25 PM
I have a cold.
Still flu free. No vaccine.
Do you intend to keep a tally every fucking day until dec 7th?
G.
Yes.
But really no, not usually on weekends, I don't have internet at home.
Also, what makes you think it's going to end on December 7th?
On that date which shall live in infamy, H5N1, which everyone has forgotten about due to the obsession with H1N1, will dive bomb the world.
H5N1 needs to mutate to infect humans. Apparently it sucks at multiplying at 32 Celcius. It needs 40 Celcius.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 09, 2009, 08:58:21 AM
H5N1 needs to mutate to infect humans. Apparently it sucks at multiplying at 32 Celcius. It needs 40 Celcius.
Global warming FTW :)
So, I just got my first message from somebody I know personally saying they've got teh porker floo. Thankfully, this girl lives in West Virginia, so unless H1N1 can now be transmitted by cooties, I don't have to worry about her infecting me. :P
Quote from: merithyn on November 08, 2009, 04:44:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 08, 2009, 04:02:16 PM
She is tougher than your average kid.
I'm sorry. I worded that poorly. Roughly 1/3 of the staff had H1N1 as well as the kids, and the adults were no different than the kids. Weak, tired easily, exhausted by lunchtime, etc. Glad to hear that she hasn't had to deal with that. In the end, the point is that she's well now.
Seems we were a bit over optimistic. Her first day back and she is getting tired pretty fast.
Rest for a week atleast, it's still the flu.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:16:51 PM
Seems we were a bit over optimistic. Her first day back and she is getting tired pretty fast.
I did warn you. :(
Got my vaccine today. There was no-one lined up - there were something like 50 booths set up, and not a single person wanting vaccination.
Interesting facts on H1N1:
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-SwineFlu/idUSTRE5AA55I20091111?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 (http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-SwineFlu/idUSTRE5AA55I20091111?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0)
The interesting "fact" being that estimates for swine flu deaths will be calculated just like estimates for flu deaths are always calculated.
A stunning revelation!
I was actually talking about the Mexican study toward the bottom of the first page and through the second.
I thought part of the idea was that there was concern the flu would change and become more deadly this fall and beyond and then is concerning because a lot of people who don't typically get the flu were getting it at high rates.
What I found interesting was that while more kids were getting it than the seasonal flu - and worse cases of it - the number of kids dying of it wasn't any different than for the seasonal flu. Like they said, it's hard to know what are real numbers, of course, since they don't - and can't - test everyone who dies, but that's the case with the seasonal flu, too.
H1N1 is dangerous, but it doesn't seem to be more deadly than any other flu. Or am I reading that wrong?
just an update.
according to the city, vaccinations are still NOT available for my non prioritized risk group (I guess Malthus is under 6, is pregnant or has chronic health issues ;) ). and apparently the threat is receding. Hamilton is closing vaccination centres now. oddly, Peel is closing its centre because of vaccine shortages.
Quote from: Malthus on November 11, 2009, 05:21:16 PM
Got my vaccine today. There was no-one lined up - there were something like 50 booths set up, and not a single person wanting vaccination.
we have been told not to go.
Quote
H1N1 shots are available to people in priority groups.
* People under 65 with chronic health conditions
* Pregnant women (clinics now have non-adjuvanted vaccine available)
* Children 6 months to less than 5 years of age
* Health care workers
* Household contacts and care providers of persons at high risk who cannot be immunized or may not respond to vaccines
* Police and firefighters, frontline institutional correctional workers, and people aged 65 and over who live in institutions like long-term care homes.
If you are not in one of these priority groups, you will not receive a vaccination at this time.
I guess you qualify because Karl is high risk?
Quote from: saskganesh on November 12, 2009, 01:40:48 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 11, 2009, 05:21:16 PM
Got my vaccine today. There was no-one lined up - there were something like 50 booths set up, and not a single person wanting vaccination.
we have been told not to go.
Quote
H1N1 shots are available to people in priority groups.
* People under 65 with chronic health conditions
* Pregnant women (clinics now have non-adjuvanted vaccine available)
* Children 6 months to less than 5 years of age
* Health care workers
* Household contacts and care providers of persons at high risk who cannot be immunized or may not respond to vaccines
* Police and firefighters, frontline institutional correctional workers, and people aged 65 and over who live in institutions like long-term care homes.
If you are not in one of these priority groups, you will not receive a vaccination at this time.
I guess you qualify because Karl is high risk?
No, I'm high risk. For the last few years, I've had chronic and severe recurring bronchitis (the one thing that finally forced me to quit smoking, or face probable death :( ).
Doc told me to go, I just didn't wanna face 6 hour lines.
Mrs Drakken finally got vaccinated with her family this Tuesday, and she is fine. Only some dizziness and a pain in the arm. Seems the illuminati's uberplan to cull humanity is a gargantuan failure. :)
As for me, a few weeks ago I got some mild illness symptoms (sudden headache, malaise, tickling cough at first, growingly dry cough with days, slight fatigue), yet no fever at all (the highest I got was 36.6 degs on the thermometer, although one morning I woke up a little soaked and sweaty). Muscle aches? Yeah, most probably due to me continuing to work out during my illness. but it hurt a little more than usual. I said jokingly that if it was the flu, it was the mildest flu I ever had, but I was pretty certain it was only a cold. An odd cold, but a cold nonetheless. Most of the symptoms went away after 7 days. Yet...
Three weeks later now, still have some headaches, a little sweat now and then, and my cough is now reaching three weeks and counting, with no sign of going away. I've tried syrup, Vicks, mouthwash, and yet it remains. It mostly tickle, then I need to cough really, really deep. Could be a bronchitis, yet oddly it remains very dry and no mucus is produced. Sometimes I even spit to be sure, and only saliva is present. And everytime I got a cold, it was with loads of mucus and nasal congestion, and it went away after two weeks. :huh:
I go see a doctor tomorrow morning. I'll ask a throat swap to see if I am of the lucky few who got a very, very mild case of swine flu. I highly doubt it, but you never know. And if it is the case, imagine the number of people I have threatened with death infected in that time. <_<
Quote from: Drakken on November 12, 2009, 06:13:16 PM
As for me, a few weeks ago I got some mild illness symptoms (sudden headache, malaise, tickling cough at first, growingly dry cough with days, slight fatigue), yet no fever at all (the highest I got was 36.6 degs on the thermometer, although one morning I woke up a little soaked and sweaty). Muscle aches? Yeah, most probably due to me continuing to work out during my illness. but it hurt a little more than usual. I said jokingly that if it was the flu, it was the mildest flu I ever had, but I was pretty certain it was only a cold. An odd cold, but a cold nonetheless. Most of the symptoms went away after 7 days. Yet...
Three weeks later now, still have some headaches, a little sweat now and then, and my cough is now reaching three weeks and counting, with no sign of going away. I've tried syrup, Vicks, mouthwash, and yet it remains. It mostly tickle, then I need to cough really, really deep. Could be a bronchitis, yet oddly it remains very dry and no mucus is produced. Sometimes I even spit to be sure, and only saliva is present. And everytime I got a cold, it was with loads of mucus and nasal congestion, and it went away after two weeks. :huh:
You've described my symptoms the past month or so almost to a T.
Mine too...
Weird as hell
If it is indeed the case, then, perhaps we three are what happens when one catches swine flu in its mildest cases. :huh:
Got back from the clinic, I have a bronchitis caused by whatever I had three weeks ago. Never had one before, not even in my baddest cases of flu in my youth. She said it was quite possible I had indeed the flu, since the onset was rather rapid and it doesn't cause the usual nasal congestion and wet, mucus-filled coughs seen in colds.
It could be another virus alltogheter, although by you confirming you had the exact same symptoms, on three different parts of the planet in the same timespan, I doubt more and more now it was just a common cold. It could be coincidential, but that we had that flu remains possible.
#4.
Quote from: Drakken on November 13, 2009, 02:42:36 PM
It could be another virus alltogheter, although by you confirming you had the exact same symptoms, on three different parts of the planet in the same timespan, I doubt more and more now it was just a common cold. It could be coincidential, but that we had that flu remains possible.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 13, 2009, 02:50:03 PM
#4.
Indeed.
Observing from the EUOT as well, I notice that, while it remains anecdotal, we witness a sudden spike in the number of bronchitis in people of have had mild symptoms of... something in the air right now.
Again, it might all be coincidential. But it's puzzling.
http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/newsreleases/2009/H1N1protection.htm
Quote
National Institute of Allergy and
Infectious Diseases (NIAID)
http://www.niaid.nih.gov
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 16, 2009
NIAID MEDIA AVAILABILITY
Immune System of Healthy Adults May Be Better Prepared Than Expected to Fight 2009 H1N1 Influenza Virus
A new study shows that molecular similarities exist between the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus and other strains of seasonal H1N1 virus that have been circulating in the population since 1988. These results suggest that healthy adults may have a level of protective immune memory that can blunt the severity of infection caused by the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus.
The study team was led by Bjoern Peters, Ph.D., and Alessandro Sette, Ph.D., of La Jolla Institute for Allergy and Immunology, Calif., grantees of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), part of the National Institutes of Health.
The investigators looked at molecular structures known to be recognized by the immune system—called epitopes—on 2009 H1N1 influenza and seasonal H1N1 viruses. Viral epitopes are recognized by immune cells called B and T cells: B cells make antibodies that can bind to viruses, blocking infection, and T cells help to eliminate virus-infected cells.
Using data gathered and reviewed from the scientific literature and deposited into the NIAID-supported Immune Epitope Database and Analysis Resource (www.iedb.org), the investigators found that some viral epitopes are identical in both the 2009 and seasonal H1N1 viral strains. Those epitopes that could be recognized by two subsets of T cells, called CD4 and CD8 T cells, are 41 percent and 69 percent identical, respectively. Subsequent experiments using blood samples taken from healthy adults demonstrated that this level of T-cell epitope conservation may provide some protection and lessen flu severity in healthy adults infected with the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus.
Analysis of the database also found that among six viral surface epitopes that can bind antibody, thereby preventing infection, only one is conserved between 2009 and seasonal H1N1 viral strains.
These results suggest that healthy individuals may have immune memory that recognizes the 2009 H1N1 strain and therefore can mount some measure of an immune attack. The findings also may help explain why the 2009 H1N1 influenza pandemic affects young children more severely than it does healthy older adults and also why two H1N1 vaccinations are needed to protect children ages nine years and under.
Did the GSK fire you?
I think I feel the flu assaulting my system. And since I had the regular flu shot, I bet it is the oink variety.
Even if you hadn't had the seasonal flu shot, odds are like 98% it is the oink variety.
Quote from: Malthus on November 12, 2009, 02:44:50 PM
No, I'm high risk. For the last few years, I've had chronic and severe recurring bronchitis (the one thing that finally forced me to quit smoking, or face probable death :( ).
Doc told me to go, I just didn't wanna face 6 hour lines.
I used to get that, and I never smoked!
Then a couple years ago I had it with "pneumonia-like" complications, whatever the fuck that means, then...nothing since.
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2009, 11:27:36 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 12, 2009, 02:44:50 PM
No, I'm high risk. For the last few years, I've had chronic and severe recurring bronchitis (the one thing that finally forced me to quit smoking, or face probable death :( ).
Doc told me to go, I just didn't wanna face 6 hour lines.
I used to get that, and I never smoked!
Then a couple years ago I had it with "pneumonia-like" complications, whatever the fuck that means, then...nothing since.
I haven't had it at all this fall (knock wood!). Usually, I get it when the weather turns cold, like clockwork.
I dunno if smoking *caused* it, but it sure as shit did not help once I had it.
Max used to get that. Then, he got a job working with sulfur. Hasn't had a problem since. Great stuff, that sulfur. :)
vaccinations are finally available for the general public. I am going to wait and see about lineups as I cannot spend a whole day in line.
Quote from: saskganesh on November 19, 2009, 06:47:22 PM
vaccinations are finally available for the general public. I am going to wait and see about lineups as I cannot spend a whole day in line.
Quite counterproductive just vaccinating the ones that have the time to wait in line a day if you want to vaccinate to reduce absency from the workplace... :D
The Amalgamated Order of Real Bearded Santas, the Santa's union, says they should be given high priority for the vaccination.
http://www.popfi.com/2009/11/19/santa-demands-the-swine-flu-vaccine/
QuoteAmong the many groups of folks who get swine flu vaccine priority are child-care workers like teachers, daycare employees, medical personnel, and those sorts of people. Given that swine flu is everywhere, people are jockeying for a place on the swine flu priority list. There are only so many vaccines to go around, and thousands of people want them. That's why one group of public employees, the Amalgamated Order of Real Bearded Santas, is asking that Santa Clauses throughout the US get bumped ahead of normal people on the swine flu vaccine list. They consider themselves a high risk group.
It might be an easily dismissed request, but once I started to think about it... it is perfectly reasonable. The average Santa has to go through hundreds of kids in an 8-hour shift of picture-taking. Given that Christmas is right around the corner, who do you think is going to handle more sniffly, sneezy, snotty little kids than all of those groups mentioned above? Right, Santa. Just imagine how many kids could get infected by one ill Father Christmas!
A batch of vaccine was pulled after they discovered a rate of allergic reactions to it 5 times the norm...
http://news.ca.msn.com/local/manitoba/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22663017
G.
Looking at the symptoms of a flu, I might have had it on Tuesday, but it was resolved by Thursday morning.
Quote from: sbr on November 20, 2009, 04:09:28 AM
The Amalgamated Order of Real Bearded Santas, the Santa's union, says they should be given high priority for the vaccination.
http://www.popfi.com/2009/11/19/santa-demands-the-swine-flu-vaccine/
QuoteAmong the many groups of folks who get swine flu vaccine priority are child-care workers like teachers, daycare employees, medical personnel, and those sorts of people. Given that swine flu is everywhere, people are jockeying for a place on the swine flu priority list. There are only so many vaccines to go around, and thousands of people want them. That's why one group of public employees, the Amalgamated Order of Real Bearded Santas, is asking that Santa Clauses throughout the US get bumped ahead of normal people on the swine flu vaccine list. They consider themselves a high risk group.
It might be an easily dismissed request, but once I started to think about it... it is perfectly reasonable. The average Santa has to go through hundreds of kids in an 8-hour shift of picture-taking. Given that Christmas is right around the corner, who do you think is going to handle more sniffly, sneezy, snotty little kids than all of those groups mentioned above? Right, Santa. Just imagine how many kids could get infected by one ill Father Christmas!
Santas that are public employees? :huh:
Quote from: saskganesh on November 19, 2009, 06:47:22 PM
vaccinations are finally available for the general public. I am going to wait and see about lineups as I cannot spend a whole day in line.
In Quebec, they staunchily refuse to speed up the process for the general public, even though vaccination clinics are currently wastelands in Montreal. But with 1,1 million doses expected next week, witholding the general population until December 7th will become less and less tenable. So I expect our turn will come by the end of November.
Starting today, though, all people aged 65 ans over, including the healthy ones, can get vaccinated in several regions of the province.
well, I have moved and no longer have proof of address, so I cannot get an OHIP card issued to met yet. therefore no free shot for me until that's all resolved.
Quote from: saskganesh on November 20, 2009, 05:03:27 PM
well, I have moved and no longer have proof of address, so I cannot get an OHIP card issued to met yet. therefore no free shot for me until that's all resolved.
Can't you present yourself with another proof of residence, like a phone bill?
Still haven't had the flu shot and still have no plans to.
I'm still alive, you'll be sad to hear. My daily paper this morning has a whole article about how this flu is merely a mild variant, and like bird flu, SARS etc, the risk has been overly exaggerated.
Hey, Sask...where did you move to?
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2009, 08:22:12 AM
I think I feel the flu assaulting my system. And since I had the regular flu shot, I bet it is the oink variety.
Apparently, it was just gas.
Quote from: Josephus on November 21, 2009, 12:13:28 PM
My daily paper this morning has a whole article about how this flu is merely a mild variant, and like bird flu, SARS etc, the risk has been overly exaggerated.
You don't say.
"OMGOMGNEWPANDEMICWEHAVENOIMMUNITYWEREALLGONNADIE!!1!1
Err...
Actually, we started developing an immunity during a similar strain in '89. Oops. :blush: "
hmm. they are recalling 125,000 vaccines because of heightened risk of side effects.
Quote from: Drakken on November 20, 2009, 05:36:30 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on November 20, 2009, 05:03:27 PM
well, I have moved and no longer have proof of address, so I cannot get an OHIP card issued to met yet. therefore no free shot for me until that's all resolved.
Can't you present yourself with another proof of residence, like a phone bill?
all my bills are online or the change in address has yet to take effect.
a
Quote from: Josephus on November 21, 2009, 12:13:28 PM
Hey, Sask...where did you move to?
Ossington/Bloor. this is a one month thing. I will be moving again in the near future, not sure where yet.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 21, 2009, 04:08:34 PM
"OMGOMGNEWPANDEMICWEHAVENOIMMUNITYWEREALLGONNADIE!!1!1
Err...
Actually, we started developing an immunity during a similar strain in '89. Oops. :blush: "
We didn't. These seasonal flu strains don't "protect" us or grant us immunity, as if we still haven't been exposed to a H1N1 strain before like the older people did.
However, since the epitopes of aH1N1 are in great part similar to several seasonal flu strains since '88 (due to a fluke in recombination), chances are we have been exposed to these strains either by flu infection or serial flu vaccination. With our immune system already having clues on how to fend off this virus our immune system has thus an easier time defending itself, which leads to milder symptoms, especially if you are part of the "younger" part of the age group (like people in their middle to late twenties) because the shorter timespan makes it more likely that out immune system "remembers" the configuration of these antigens.
Carter and Jak's best friend is in the hospital with what they think is Swine Flu. He just had open-heart surgery a month ago to replace a leaky valve with a bionic one. (He'd had it replaced when he was much younger, but it was leaking again.) They shipped him up to Milwaukee today from Schaumburg, because I guess his surgeon is up there.
Good thoughts and prayers for this kid, if you all wouldn't mind. He's honestly just one of the best kids you'll ever meet.
Shit. I hope he'll be allright, as this flu hits kids very hard. :console:
Quote from: Malthus on November 18, 2009, 11:38:15 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2009, 11:27:36 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 12, 2009, 02:44:50 PM
No, I'm high risk. For the last few years, I've had chronic and severe recurring bronchitis (the one thing that finally forced me to quit smoking, or face probable death :( ).
Doc told me to go, I just didn't wanna face 6 hour lines.
I used to get that, and I never smoked!
Then a couple years ago I had it with "pneumonia-like" complications, whatever the fuck that means, then...nothing since.
I haven't had it at all this fall (knock wood!). Usually, I get it when the weather turns cold, like clockwork.
I dunno if smoking *caused* it, but it sure as shit did not help once I had it.
Yep - exact same thing - generally would gt it around early December or so. It was relaly bad a few times.
I've heard excess weight contributes as well - more pressure on the bronchia, I guess. Although mine stopped before I lost a bunch of weight, so who knows?
I have a wheezing cough (I am an asthmatic) this morning.... my boss was out sick with flu last week and he now has walking pneumonia. :ph34r:
Quote from: merithyn on November 22, 2009, 10:55:42 PM
Carter and Jak's best friend is in the hospital with what they think is Swine Flu. He just had open-heart surgery a month ago to replace a leaky valve with a bionic one. (He'd had it replaced when he was much younger, but it was leaking again.) They shipped him up to Milwaukee today from Schaumburg, because I guess his surgeon is up there.
Good thoughts and prayers for this kid, if you all wouldn't mind. He's honestly just one of the best kids you'll ever meet.
Damn, I hope he is ok.
Do you know any more details about his leaky valve? I am curious since Jake had Pulmonary Valve Stenosis (very severe) at birth and had valvular angioplasty at 3 weeks, so his pulmonary valve is susceptible to leaking (although it hasn't been an issue yet), and his doctor has said that it is very possible that he will need a valve replacement at some point.
Quote from: Berkut on November 23, 2009, 10:10:27 AM
Damn, I hope he is ok.
Do you know any more details about his leaky valve? I am curious since Jake had Pulmonary Valve Stenosis (very severe) at birth and had valvular angioplasty at 3 weeks, so his pulmonary valve is susceptible to leaking (although it hasn't been an issue yet), and his doctor has said that it is very possible that he will need a valve replacement at some point.
Turns out it's probably not Swine Flu, just an infection of some sort. He had a fever and now he's spilling bacteria in his urine. Either way, his temp was down yesterday. No word today on how things are, but my gut tells me this could be bad. I so hope I'm wrong. :(
I don't know much about the details on Andrew's valve issues, I'm afraid. I vaguely remember Andrew saying that he had his first surgery when he was little (around six or seven). It was a donor valve, and they knew it wasn't a permanent fix. This latest surgery should have been done six months ago, but the docs kept putting it off. They replaced the donor valve with a bionic one, so now he clicks when the room is quiet. :D
NOTE: For the record, the kids will be getting the vaccination. Their dad asked if they could, and after all of this with Andrew, I said yes. I still don't think it's necessary for them, but it so is not worth taking a chance that Andrew will get it, even though I'm sure he's gotten the vaccine already.
Vaccination is now open to the general population in Montreal, plus several parts of Quebec, starting tomorrow. :yeah:
Getting my shot in the morning. Got my boss covering for me. :)
Quote from: merithyn on November 22, 2009, 10:55:42 PM
Carter and Jak's best friend is in the hospital with what they think is Swine Flu. He just had open-heart surgery a month ago to replace a leaky valve with a bionic one. (He'd had it replaced when he was much younger, but it was leaking again.) They shipped him up to Milwaukee today from Schaumburg, because I guess his surgeon is up there.
Good thoughts and prayers for this kid, if you all wouldn't mind. He's honestly just one of the best kids you'll ever meet.
Prayer completed. Now taking other requests.
Got my shot. I'm still alive and kicking.
I've beaten the Illuminati. :menace:
Let us hope for your sake that they didn't mix up the cocktail...
G.
Quote from: Drakken on November 25, 2009, 10:47:16 AM
Got my shot. I'm still alive and kicking.
I've beaten the Illuminati. :menace:
With the slight side effect that the illuminati can now hear your thoughts.
Quote from: Malthus on November 25, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: Drakken on November 25, 2009, 10:47:16 AM
Got my shot. I'm still alive and kicking.
I've beaten the Illuminati. :menace:
With the slight side effect that the illuminati can now hear your thoughts.
Poor bastards.
Indeed.
Quote from: Berkut on November 25, 2009, 10:59:32 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 25, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: Drakken on November 25, 2009, 10:47:16 AM
Got my shot. I'm still alive and kicking.
I've beaten the Illuminati. :menace:
With the slight side effect that the illuminati can now hear your thoughts.
Poor bastards.
:lmfao:
For those interested, Andrew had a staff infection. They removed the bionic valve, as it was compromised by the staff, and replaced it with another donor valve. Surgery went fine, but no news since then.
Continued prayers and good thoughts are welcome. :(
Sweden just had the first fatality caused by the vaccine.
A guy who had a heart transplant 19 years ago. The vaccine caused the body to reject the transplanted organ.
Another reported transplanted organ rejected because of the vaccine.
This time a kidney that was transplanted 13 years ago was rejected by the body shortly after a vaccination.
Flu shot: received. Nurse was HOTT too. :perv:
A New thread would have been ok, Caliga.
Company discontinued offering shots at owrk so i'm not getting jabbed.
Quote from: Caliga on October 25, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
Flu shot: received. Nurse was HOTT too. :perv:
I had mine 2 weeks ago. Late as usual Cal.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 25, 2011, 11:25:01 AM
A New thread would have been ok, Caliga.
I don't know how to put this, buttttttttt.... I'm kind of a thread necromancer.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 25, 2011, 12:34:41 PM
Quote from: Caliga on October 25, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
Flu shot: received. Nurse was HOTT too. :perv:
I had mine 2 weeks ago. Late as usual Cal.
Only took you 77 yeahs.
wut
Here swine flu shots were linked to causing narcolepsy in children and now there's a bunch of lawsuits.
Quote from: Solmyr on October 25, 2011, 04:09:50 PM
Here swine flu shots were linked to causing narcolepsy in children and now there's a bunch of lawsuits.
:bleeding: Just like they cause autism, eh?
Since the thread is here for some reason- omfg I have a sore throat and I'm sneezing and all that, I has the swine flu.
I Haz a cold. All sniffley.
I'm in a high risk category for swine flu. :(