Swine Flu

[The Brain]

I've never had a flu shot that I recall (likely had them when young).

Or drunk.

[viper37]

Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.

So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.

V

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html

Is there squalene in vaccines?

    * Since 1997, an influenza vaccine (FLUAD, Chiron) which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose, has been approved in health agencies in several European countries. Squalene is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic.

[viper37]

I've never had a flu shot that I recall (likely had them when young).

I think it's a fairly recent vaccine.
So, either you are still young, or you never got it

[garbon]

I think it's a fairly recent vaccine.
So, either you are still young, or you never got it

I had no idea. Then it is safe to say that I've never had one.

Actually that's not true. They've had different influenza vaccines for years.  I remember one of my relatives saying they got sick in the 70s with its swine flu scare.

[Valdemar]

Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.

So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.

V

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html

Is there squalene in vaccines?

    * Since 1997, an influenza vaccine (FLUAD, Chiron) which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose, has been approved in health agencies in several European countries. Squalene is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic.

But not in all, not in denmark and apparently not in Germany, hence the differnt advice from the docs re the seasonal and the H1N1

V

[Drakken]

Nope, the adjuvant isn't used in seasonal Flu vaccine all over Europe. I checked, it isn't used in Denmark nor in Germany, but it IS used in the Netherlands for instance.

So my argument stands. Unlike ordinary seasonal flu vaccine in DEN the H1N1 contains an adjuvant that WILL make it act differently than ordinary flu vaccine.

V

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html

Is there squalene in vaccines?

    * Since 1997, an influenza vaccine (FLUAD, Chiron) which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose, has been approved in health agencies in several European countries. Squalene is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic.

But not in all, not in denmark and apparently not in Germany, hence the differnt advice from the docs re the seasonal and the H1N1

V

Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.

And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.

Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.

[Barrister]

I would give meri the gears over not getting vaccinated, but not Valde, who has clearly talked with his doctors and is following their advice.

[merithyn]

Look, if your doctor says you don't need the flu shot, then fine.  But if he recommends it, I think you're foolish not to get it.

None of us "need" the flu shot, except Jeremy. He will likely get it. He recommends it to prevent the rest of us from getting sick, but it's not going to compromise us if we do come down with it.

It's a convenience thing.

[crazy canuck]

but it's not going to compromise us if we do come down with it.

It's a convenience thing.

Right.  You are just so much more genetically superior to the other completely healthy people that have been killed by this.  It only happens to other people and other people's kids.

[merithyn]

So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?

Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.

*shrugs*

They don't need it. It's a convenience, not a necessity, just like the chickenpox vaccine. If you look at the numbers on the report that I posted, the death rate due to pneumonia and flu hasn't dropped at all since the wide-spread use of flu shots came into vogue in the early 1990s. It keeps people from staying home sick from work or school, but hasn't done squat to prevent deaths.

[merithyn]

Right.  You are just so much more genetically superior to the other completely healthy people that have been killed by this.  It only happens to other people and other people's kids.

I love when you guys comment without reading.

I was talking about the regular seasonal flu, not H1N1.

[Barrister]

So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?

Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.

*shrugs*

They don't need it. It's a convenience, not a necessity, just like the chickenpox vaccine. If you look at the numbers on the report that I posted, the death rate due to pneumonia and flu hasn't dropped at all since the wide-spread use of flu shots came into vogue in the early 1990s. It keeps people from staying home sick from work or school, but hasn't done squat to prevent deaths.

Really?  It hasn't "done squat" to prevent deaths?

Have you conducted a full epidemiological survey to determine the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and attempted to control for other variables such as long lifespans and an increasingly elderly population?  Or have you just looked at a couple of charts and called it a day?

The experts, the ones that have done such surveys, all recommend getting the vaccine.

[Berkut]

So people with normal immune systems "do not need" the flu shot?

Uhhh, ok Dr. meri.

*shrugs*

They don't need it. It's a convenience, not a necessity, just like the chickenpox vaccine. If you look at the numbers on the report that I posted, the death rate due to pneumonia and flu hasn't dropped at all since the wide-spread use of flu shots came into vogue in the early 1990s. It keeps people from staying home sick from work or school, but hasn't done squat to prevent deaths.

Actually, you don't know if the death rate has dropped, because the deaths reported due to flu are not directly counted, but inferred from data, since most states do not report deaths from flu.

According to the CDC, the variance is rather large from year to year - 17,000 to 52,000 deaths.

How you can argue that it does not prevent deaths from flu when it prevents people from getting the flu is simply beyond me. Where are you getting this information?

"hasn't done squat to prevent deaths" that is a pretty bold claim - do you have anything to back it up?

[merithyn]

27 deaths as of last April.
None since the 2nd outbreak.
However, about a dozen people (no more precisions) are now under intensive care due to H1N1.
None have died yet.  They may all survive, they may all die, half of them may survive, we don't know yet.

How many were healthy and how many were compromised? I've seen the number of deaths in Illinois and the US, too, but there's no break down, or anything that compares it to the regular flu. That's what I'm looking for.

And also, by getting the vaccine, I reduce the overall chances of seeing this virus mutate.

Is there something out there a scientific study that shows that by vaccinating people you alleviate the chance of the virus mutating? I've never heard that about the flu. I'd be interested to see this, if it's true.

[Valdemar]

Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.

And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.

Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.

You don't read very well do you?

First of, it isn't just Denmark, but apparently Germany too, I know plenty of dutch who go to germany for their vaccines to avoid the in many ways unnecesary booster. Call it caution on the side of safety, many North European health agenices are more cautius on vaccines than the US.


That aside I didn't come down on either side of the adjetive, but I DO have small speciel gene defect (MS) that makes me be very wary of ANY boost to my immune system, hence the original post as to why I don't rush to the vaccine and why I have been cautioned to conside NOT getting it.

So, if you read what I write there is indeed reason to avoid the booster, safe or not.

V