Swine Flu

[Drakken]

Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.

And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.

Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.

You don't read very well do you?

First of, it isn't just Denmark, but apparently Germany too, I know plenty of dutch who go to germany for their vaccines to avoid the in many ways unnecesary booster. Call it caution on the side of safety, many North European health agenices are more cautius on vaccines than the US.


That aside I didn't come down on either side of the adjetive, but I DO have small speciel gene defect (MS) that makes me be very wary of ANY boost to my immune system, hence the original post as to why I don't rush to the vaccine and why I have been cautioned to conside NOT getting it.

So, if you read what I write there is indeed reason to avoid the booster, safe or not.

V

But because of your problem you may certainly request the vaccine without adjuvant.

[merithyn]

I would give meri the gears over not getting vaccinated, but not Valde, who has clearly talked with his doctors and is following their advice.

Okay?

As I've said, I've done plenty of research on vaccines and am not entering this blindly. There are physicians whom I agree with, and those I do not, but it is a rare physician that I accept as the ultimate authority on anything. My experience has taught me that that can cost your life. I do my own research, talk to physicians, and then make up my own mind.

Given that so few of you seem to have done any research, I find it slightly amusing that you're quick to judge how stupid I am. Believe it or not, physicians aren't infallible, even en masse.

[Drakken]

Is there something out there a scientific study that shows that by vaccinating people you alleviate the chance of the virus mutating? I've never heard that about the flu. I'd be interested to see this, if it's true.

All flu strains mutate. It's inescapable. However, there is "mutating" and "recombining", which is the strain taking DNA information from another strain to recombine and mutate itself in a new whole strain. This is what the current h1n1 is the result of, a mix of different flu strains from swine, avian, and human flu. And for this to happen, two ore more different flu strains is needed to be present and infect the same vessel.

By taking the vaccine, you decrease the chances of someone catching two flu in the same time, and thus allow less occasions for a flu strain to recombine and create a new strain which can potentially be more virulent AND transmissible from human to human.

[merithyn]

Really?  It hasn't "done squat" to prevent deaths?

Have you conducted a full epidemiological survey to determine the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and attempted to control for other variables such as long lifespans and an increasingly elderly population?  Or have you just looked at a couple of charts and called it a day?

The experts, the ones that have done such surveys, all recommend getting the vaccine.

How about you look at what I posted before you decide that it's bunk?

[Valdemar]

Which is stupid, because Danes are metabolically the same humans as the rest of Europe. Squalene (or MF59) doesn't selectively spare the Dutch and hurt the Danes.

And the WHO guidelines for this adjuvant mark it as safe. So there if you want to be as gung-ho about it.

Unless you have some silly tiny genetic defect making squalene react akind to Drano or strychnine into Danish muscles, logically what works for these European states would bring similar results for the Danes. So if MF59 is proven to be safe for any other human State in Europe, it is as safe for Danes. Anything else is silly bureaucratic nitpicking in time of health crisis.

You don't read very well do you?

First of, it isn't just Denmark, but apparently Germany too, I know plenty of dutch who go to germany for their vaccines to avoid the in many ways unnecesary booster. Call it caution on the side of safety, many North European health agenices are more cautius on vaccines than the US.


That aside I didn't come down on either side of the adjetive, but I DO have small speciel gene defect (MS) that makes me be very wary of ANY boost to my immune system, hence the original post as to why I don't rush to the vaccine and why I have been cautioned to conside NOT getting it.

So, if you read what I write there is indeed reason to avoid the booster, safe or not.

V

But because of your problem you may certainly request the vaccine without adjuvant.

Apparently not, at least not for now.

Vaccines of any sort is always and iffy thing with MS, the recommendation of the seasonal shot (no adjetives) is that it is better than actually getting sick with virus, but otoh a mild flu is better than a vaccine.. apparently.... at least as long as your MS is stable and you are not having disabilites due to the MS that would agreviate the flu attack (immobility, affects to respiratory etc)

V

[Ed Anger]

/eats popcorn

[Barrister]

Really?  It hasn't "done squat" to prevent deaths?

Have you conducted a full epidemiological survey to determine the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and attempted to control for other variables such as long lifespans and an increasingly elderly population?  Or have you just looked at a couple of charts and called it a day?

The experts, the ones that have done such surveys, all recommend getting the vaccine.

How about you look at what I posted before you decide that it's bunk?

What should I be looking at?

I went over most of the thread, and just found you posting that you don't like vaccines.

I especially liked this quote:

The Public Health Department is encouraging all those who did not test positive for H1N1 on the strips to get the vaccine, to be on the safe side. When I spoke with the PHD school liaison, I told him that I didn't really think we needed it and why. He agreed that most likely, we didn't, but it wouldn't hurt to get the vaccine. Then I asked if there were enough vaccinations with the first go-round. He said that to be honest, he didn't think there would be, then said that since he already knows my opinion on vaccines anyway (that not all vaccines are necessary), he didn't figure I'd be getting them. I told him probably not.

You may have talked with people, but you made it quite clear up front what your opinion was, and decided to ignore the advice you were receiving.

[merithyn]

Actually, you don't know if the death rate has dropped, because the deaths reported due to flu are not directly counted, but inferred from data, since most states do not report deaths from flu.

According to the CDC, the variance is rather large from year to year - 17,000 to 52,000 deaths.

How you can argue that it does not prevent deaths from flu when it prevents people from getting the flu is simply beyond me. Where are you getting this information?

"hasn't done squat to prevent deaths" that is a pretty bold claim - do you have anything to back it up?

I don't doubt for a second that on a case-by-case basis the flu shots have had an impact for those with compromised immune systems - so long as the correct strains were vaccinated for, which doesn't always happen. But the incidence rate of flu deaths hasn't gone down significantly since the 1960s, according to the report I linked to.

Overall, there hasn't been much of an impact on the general population. I would encourage my godmother to get a flu shot because she's 85 years old. I would encourage my son to get one because he's diabetic and asthmatic. But the chance of death due to the flu is incredibly minimal for those who are considered normally healthy.

[merithyn]

In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf

The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.

Restated for BB's benefit.

[Valdemar]

Meri, not judging, but isn't this the rehash of the very old thread on an other child vaccine in some US school?

If I recall correctl that one ended up with everyone agreeing to disagree with your POV, and no one actually was convinced of the other's POV.

So maybe just agree to disagree?

V

[Drakken]

In addition, in this report you can see that the incidence of death due to pneumonia and flu hasn't changed much at all from the 1960s to now, despite the widespread use of flu vaccines since the 1990s.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf

The flu is one of those things that we will never eradicate. The vaccine has its uses for those most compromised and at risk, but it makes little sense for everyone to get the vaccine. The risk is minimal, and there's no chance of getting rid of it completely, unlike polio or smallpox.

Restated for BB's benefit.

The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.

The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has remained very stable during the Southern Hemisphere's flu season. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.

[merithyn]

Meri, not judging, but isn't this the rehash of the very old thread on an other child vaccine in some US school?

If I recall correctl that one ended up with everyone agreeing to disagree with your POV, and no one actually was convinced of the other's POV.

So maybe just agree to disagree?

V

It was the chickenpox vaccine, and you're quite right. My only intent was to make a few people actually look into it a bit. Of course, you're right, that isn't likely to happen.

[merithyn]

The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.

The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has been very stable. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.

I agree, and if we hadn't already had the disease, I would have let Jeremy get it.

[Drakken]

The reason the seasonal flu is not "that" effective is because we need to guess the antigens months in advance, before the start of the flu season.

The h1n1 flu vaccine, however, is a killer vaccine because we know and have the antigen in advance since April, and it has been very stable. So this criticism on h1n1 flu vaccine relayed from seasonal flu vaccine is not warranted. So the matching between the circulating flu strain and the vaccine antigen is almost perfect.

I agree, and if we hadn't already had the disease, I would have let Jeremy get it.

But if the children around him get the h1n1, they can transmit it to him through the school or the playground. And I understand he has medical complications, which puts him at a greater risk for severe complications if he catches the flu.

[crazy canuck]

Right.  You are just so much more genetically superior to the other completely healthy people that have been killed by this.  It only happens to other people and other people's kids.

I love when you guys comment without reading.

I was talking about the regular seasonal flu, not H1N1.

My reading ability is fine.  You certainly didnt make that clear in your post.  In any event my comment stands.  Regulary flu shots are more then a convenience issue but you dont even think the H1N1 is necessary so the discussion seems pointless.