Stolen from P'dox OT:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/071009-hardkor-44-a-ww-ii.html (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/071009-hardkor-44-a-ww-ii.html)
Quote'Hardkor 44': a WW II movie in 'Sin City' and '300' style
By Ludwik Krakowiak , IDG News Service , 07/10/2009
2003 Oscar nominee Tomasz Baginski is working on his next big project. This time he along with his colleagues from Platige Image animation studio wants to take us back to the summer of 1944 and throw us in the middle of the Warsaw Uprising.
The movie is entitled "Hardkor 44" and its events take place in Warsaw in 1944. The Polish capital city is still being occupied by the Nazis but as the Soviet army approaches from the east, the uprising begins.
After that point, the storyline stops following real history. Insurgents are lead by a young man named Arnold. Their goal is to stand up to the evil SS commander and in the meantime to intercept the loot he has gathered through robbery and war crimes. What they do not know is Oberführer Wagner has a squad of ... cyborgs at his command.
Furthermore, the movie is set to feature live actors but the surrounding world will be digitally generated in a way similar to Frank Miller classic comics' movie adaptations: "Sin City" or "300". In such a world, the city of Warsaw swarms with war machines and robots and it becomes an even more ominous and infernal place than it really was 65 years ago.
A new approach
"It's a new approach to history-telling. I didn't want to show the uprising in a way we are used to: hopeless cause, miserable deaths in the street watercourses", says Tomasz Baginski, cited by the TVN Warszawa website.
There's a distinct line between good and evil - Polish male and female soldiers are good, pretty and courageous. They are also heavily armed which is obviously contrary to the historical facts. Scar-faced German troops with their malice and blood-hunger are simply opposites. Such a movie, in which everything is black or white with none in the middle, should be understandable to everyone in the world and attract especially young viewers who have grown up on games, comics and science-fiction movies and literature.
"Hardkor 44"'s future depends on financial support which its authors hope to receive from the Polish Film Institute (PISF). Those funds would be spent on the screenplay draft. Then, with the script ready, a search for a sponsor and capable studio can be started. The movie cannot be made in Poland due to lack of technologies necessary to conduct the production. Besides, no Polish movie company or studio is experienced in such venture. That is why people behind the project want to go to Hollywood.
If everything goes well, we should see "Hardkor 44" in theaters in 2012.
Tomasz Baginski is well known for his achievements in the areas of computer graphics and animation. His works include "Katedra" ("The Cathedral") which was nominated for an Oscar in the category of short animated film in 2003 and animated intro to 2007's "The Witcher" PC game.
Visit Platige Studio web site http://www.platige.com for more information.
The IDG News Service is a Network World affiliate.
All contents copyright 1995-2009 Network World, Inc. http://www.networkworld.com
Concept art slideshow (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZbX-6VoXk")
Official site (http://"http://hardkor44.pl/")
Some concept art, from official website:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi255.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh130%2Ftrybald%2F01m.jpg&hash=2a1a44b684e4b4803e5e028255ccc6ff374f06bf)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi255.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh130%2Ftrybald%2F02m.jpg&hash=fd58f17e39828c3d3897743755e07a61a76d1df0)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi255.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh130%2Ftrybald%2F03m.jpg&hash=42d5bbf3abd87cc8f276a133e3f30d11d15f6389)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi255.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh130%2Ftrybald%2F04m.jpg&hash=a57e59cb8fe44fcb0443dc0c905eb1302fcad74d)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi255.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh130%2Ftrybald%2F05m.jpg&hash=8acc83bec89f406f1de0dc10d9c7b6a0d4c92036)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi255.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh130%2Ftrybald%2F10m.jpg&hash=c6e401d16a1d36f982281bb55fdc709db5594755)
I'm hard now.
Damn, that looks stupid.
The cyborg with the flamethrower needs more random bits of stuff sticking out of his back. Everyone knows that a cyborg's fighting efficiency is determined by the amount of random stuff he has sticking out of his back.
Now that is a bunch of retarded nonsense.
What's with the midget?
Quote from: Scipio on August 05, 2009, 07:25:23 AM
Now that is a bunch of retarded nonsense.
Are you saying this is not a historically accurate rendition? :(
Oh.My.God... :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 07:34:33 AMAre you saying this is not a historically accurate rendition? :(
Beeb's gonna go ballistic. :ph34r:
Not gonna win any Oscars, but could be a lot of fun.
You can hear the fanboi fapping already. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 08:08:38 AM
You can hear the fanboi fapping already. :lol:
Just wait till Timmy shows up.
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 07:34:33 AM
Quote from: Scipio on August 05, 2009, 07:25:23 AM
Now that is a bunch of retarded nonsense.
Are you saying this is not a historically accurate rendition? :(
Let's hope it will have a powerful narrative. :)
Given the copious amount of work on the subject by various scholars in such places as the Paradox Forums, I am sure that this will be a completely accurate and faithful rendition to the events.
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Well, if it makes the Poles feel better about their own collaboration...
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 08:16:15 AM
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Aren't they going to be depicted as the super-heros a la
300?
Maybe they'd find it flattering.
Many people on P'dox find it "tasteless". I have to say I find it: hillarious. Unfortunately I fear that the movie will suck a lot, special fx or not-
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 08:16:15 AM
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Aren't they going to be depicted as the super-heros a la 300?
Maybe they'd find it flattering.
Never underestimate the ability of Eastern Europeans to have their egos bruised by any and every reference to them in the outside world.
You can throw them a bone every so often and it quells their anger.
Here, watch.
Panczkys = OSSUM :mmm:
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 08:56:34 AM
Never underestimate the ability of Eastern Europeans to have their egos bruised by any and every reference to them in the outside world.
As far as I can tell it is a bunch of Poles wanting to make this thing. They are seeking funding from the Polish Film Institute for it ...
:smoke:
Quote from: Caliga on August 05, 2009, 08:57:52 AM
You can throw them a bone every so often and it quells their anger.
Here, watch.
Panczkys = OSSUM :mmm:
Please stop mentioning food. :(
they have no money and no script and no modern cinema resources. this movie will never be made.
Quote from: saskganesh on August 05, 2009, 09:07:47 AM
they have no money and no script and no modern cinema resources. this movie will never be made.
Too bad. The world needs to be shown just how advanced the Nazi cyborg program really was.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 08:56:34 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 08:16:15 AM
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Aren't they going to be depicted as the super-heros a la 300?
Maybe they'd find it flattering.
Never underestimate the ability of Eastern Europeans to have their egos bruised by any and every reference to them in the outside world.
Well, this time it's not the outside world, but a Pole doing that. And it has been widely reported here in the press as a Good Thing (tm).
Quote from: Syt on August 05, 2009, 08:12:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 07:34:33 AM
Quote from: Scipio on August 05, 2009, 07:25:23 AM
Now that is a bunch of retarded nonsense.
Are you saying this is not a historically accurate rendition? :(
Let's hope it will have a powerful narrative. :)
:D
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2009, 08:22:07 AM
Well, if it makes the Poles feel better about their own collaboration...
I know you are a retarded troll, but Poles had the most robust resistance movement of all countries occupied by the nazis and the number of collaborators was really small (there was, for one, no Polish SS unit and no Polish puppet government in place).
Antisemitism and pogroms are one thing, but political collaboration wasn't really happening on a scale comparable to some other countries (such as France, Belgium or the Baltics).
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
I know you are a retarded troll, but Poles had the most robust resistance movement of all countries occupied by the nazis and the number of collaborators was really small (there was, for one, no Polish SS unit and no Polish puppet government in place).
I don't know, the Serbs were pretty hardcore fielding entire armies that could beat their enemies in the field.
And there was no puppet government because Germany preferred to govern it directly.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 05, 2009, 10:29:41 AM
And there was no puppet government because Germany preferred to govern it directly.
Didn't stop the Czechs from collaborating.
Anybody who thinks the Poles were notorious collaborators is an idiot or a liar.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2009, 10:00:32 AM
I don't know, the Serbs were pretty hardcore fielding entire armies that could beat their enemies in the field.
Apples to Oranges.
The "Serbs" also were facing garrison soldiers and were not right on the supply line to the German Armies in Russia. Also the "Serbs" were easily supplied by the Allies while the Poles were pretty much locked away to fend for themselves.
Oh and I would argue the Polish divisions fighting for the British and the Soviets did a pretty decent job beating armies in the field also.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 10:39:19 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 05, 2009, 10:29:41 AM
And there was no puppet government because Germany preferred to govern it directly.
Didn't stop the Czechs from collaborating.
Anybody who thinks the Poles were notorious collaborators is an idiot or a liar.
Or trolling martinus.
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 08:16:15 AM
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Aren't they going to be depicted as the super-heros a la 300?
Maybe they'd find it flattering.
The tasteless angle is what they'll see.
'Thousands died and youre making it all silly! It should be like teh Shindlers List!'
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
I know you are a retarded troll, but Poles had the most robust resistance movement of all countries occupied by the nazis and the number of collaborators was really small (there was, for one, no Polish SS unit and no Polish puppet government in place).
Antisemitism and pogroms are one thing, but political collaboration wasn't really happening on a scale comparable to some other countries (such as France, Belgium or the Baltics).
Actually, the Poles resisted quite heroically... and that's not just pandering to Marti. In fact, I'm hurt that he ignored my earlier comment about panczkys that WAS blatant pandering. :(
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 10:55:05 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 08:16:15 AM
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Aren't they going to be depicted as the super-heros a la 300?
Maybe they'd find it flattering.
The tasteless angle is what they'll see.
'Thousands died and youre making it all silly! It should be like teh Shindlers List!'
Hmmm - Shindler's List, with evil cyborgs ...
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 10:55:05 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 08:16:15 AM
I'd imagine the Poles will go off their rocker complaining about this.
Aren't they going to be depicted as the super-heros a la 300?
Maybe they'd find it flattering.
The tasteless angle is what they'll see.
'Thousands died and youre making it all silly! It should be like teh Shindlers List!'
Hmmm - Shindler's List, with evil cyborgs ...
I'm thinking Austerlitz with a barechested napoleon taking on cyborg Austrians and a 10 foot tall czar.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 05, 2009, 10:52:13 AM
Or trolling martinus.
Marty is not exactly a Polish hyperpatriot.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 11:37:52 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 05, 2009, 10:52:13 AM
Or trolling martinus.
Marty is not exactly a Polish hyperpatriot.
Our posters don't seem to put much effort into their trolls.
Until there's a trailer... it's just drawings. no trailer = bah
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 11:37:52 AMMarty is not exactly a Polish hyperpatriot.
:huh: He loves everything about Poland except for its extraordinarily deep hatred of the gays.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 05, 2009, 11:36:36 AM
I'm thinking Austerlitz with a barechested napoleon taking on cyborg Austrians and a 10 foot tall czar.
Well, if they do a movie of Peter the Great, they could at least have the 10 foot Czar. :D
Quote from: Caliga on August 05, 2009, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 11:37:52 AMMarty is not exactly a Polish hyperpatriot.
:huh: He loves everything about Poland except for its extraordinarily deep hatred of the gays.
:huh: He makes threads ripping Poland all the time.
...about its extraordinarily deep hatred of the gays, yes.
Quote from: Caliga on August 05, 2009, 12:29:59 PM
...about its extraordinarily deep hatred of the gays, yes.
Um...no...but whatever.
I agree with Valmy: Marty's not a hyperpatriot, though unjustified ragging on Poland pisses him off.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2009, 12:31:24 PMUm...no...but whatever.
Stop trying to derail my world view, you derailer you.
:huh:
Who gives a fuck what Martinus thinks?
Quote from: Kleves on August 05, 2009, 12:45:42 PM
:huh:
Who gives a fuck what Martinus thinks?
The people who have been talking to him for six years?
Quote from: Malthus on August 05, 2009, 11:31:17 AM
Hmmm - Shindler's List, with evil cyborgs ...
More like Szczyndler's List with evil cyborgs then.
Quote from: Caliga on August 05, 2009, 12:29:59 PM
...about its extraordinarily deep hatred of the gays, yes.
Well I have also railed against antisemitism and catholic fundamentalism.
Of course, opposing antisemitism and catholic fundamentalism is just furthering the gay agenda through other means. -_-
Quote from: Kleves on August 05, 2009, 12:45:42 PM
:huh:
Who gives a fuck what Martinus thinks?
No one cares what the fuck you think. We don't even know much about you, not even your appearance. Nor do we care to ask you for it. But between you and me, I'm sure there is a pretty good reason you hide yourself the way you do.
Diagnosis: Fug ^_^
Only the gay get to call themselves Poles. Only the gay. Only the weak.
Would be way cool if they do a movie that generally resembled history. That cyborg stuff is stupid.
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2009, 08:22:07 AM
Well, if it makes the Poles feel better about their own collaboration...
I know you are a retarded troll, but Poles had the most robust resistance movement of all countries occupied by the nazis and the number of collaborators was really small
On the contrary, more Polish citizens then any other county apart from the Ukraine "collaborated" and more Polish citizens served in both the SS and the Wehrmacht then any other apart from Austria.
They were called Volkdeutsche.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 06, 2009, 05:46:43 AM
Would be way cool if they do a movie that generally resembled history. That cyborg stuff is stupid.
If it generally resembled history, how would it distinguish itself from a hundred other WW2 movies?
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 06:07:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 05, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2009, 08:22:07 AM
Well, if it makes the Poles feel better about their own collaboration...
I know you are a retarded troll, but Poles had the most robust resistance movement of all countries occupied by the nazis and the number of collaborators was really small
On the contrary, more Polish citizens then any other county apart from the Ukraine "collaborated" and more Polish citizens served in both the SS and the Wehrmacht then any other apart from Austria.
They were called Volkdeutsche.
:huh: That's not true.
Do you have any sources to back this extraordinary claim?
Quote from: saskganesh on August 05, 2009, 09:07:47 AM
they have no money and no script and no modern cinema resources. this movie will never be made.
I really hope so, or I'm gonna get really pissed at the poles.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 06:51:49 AM
:huh: That's not true.
Do you have any sources to back this extraordinary claim?
45.000 German-Poles served under the SS between September -39 and april -40 in
Selbstschutz militia units http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47 (http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47)
Unfortuntaly this is a part of the Polish history that Polish historians don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole ( :P ) most of the
volkdeutshe was drafted into the
Wehrmacht as conscripts (as was a lot, or all able, German speaking French from Alsace-Lorraine after the surrender of France, as was the Sudeten Germans and the Austrians). Which means they weren't catagorised as "Foreign Volunteers" as say the Dutch or Flems, hence the Polish claim that no Poles served the Germans. Nothing extraordinary about my 'claim' more likely that the history taught at Polish schools about WW2 is about as acurate as the Russian..... <_<
Though my claim that more Poles then then any other nationalty served, is a little exaggerated, but a shitload of Poles served and fought in the
wehrmacht
:huh:
I find it hard to believe more Poles fought for the Axis than for the Allies, either as resistance fighters or auxiliaries in the British and Red Armies.
You're aware that the Poles played a heroic and decisive role in the battle for Monte Cassino, right?
Quote from: Caliga on August 06, 2009, 07:11:55 AM
:huh:
I find it hard to believe more Poles fought for the Axis than for the Allies,
Eh, considering that the whole Polish army fought for the Allies during a couple of weeks in 1939, I agree.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 07:16:30 AMEh, considering that the whole Polish army fought for the Allies during a couple of weeks in 1939, I agree.
I meant after the Polish capitulation. :P
Quote from: Caliga on August 06, 2009, 07:11:55 AM
:huh:
I find it hard to believe more Poles fought for the Axis than for the Allies, either as resistance fighters or auxiliaries in the British and Red Armies.
You're aware that the Poles played a heroic and decisive role in the battle for Monte Cassino, right?
More Poles fought for the allies then the Axis, no doubt about that, about 1.5 million of them fought very briefly but intensly between September and October -39 ;)
All I am saying is that very many of Polish nationality fought in the
Wehrmacht and that almost no Poles is aware of this today, might be because all alive in -45 were expelled to Germany <_<
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:09:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 06:51:49 AM
:huh: That's not true.
Do you have any sources to back this extraordinary claim?
45.000 German-Poles served under the SS between September -39 and april -40 in Selbstschutz militia units http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47 (http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47)
Unfortuntaly this is a part of the Polish history that Polish historians don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole ( :P ) most of the volkdeutshe was drafted into the Wehrmacht as conscripts (as was a lot, or all able, German speaking French from Alsace-Lorraine after the surrender of France, as was the Sudeten Germans and the Austrians). Which means they weren't catagorised as "Foreign Volunteers" as say the Dutch or Flems, hence the Polish claim that no Poles served the Germans. Nothing extraordinary about my 'claim' more likely that the history taught at Polish schools about WW2 is about as acurate as the Russian..... <_<
Though my claim that more Poles then then any other nationalty served, is a little exaggerated, but a shitload of Poles served and fought in the wehrmacht
Sorry but the source you gave is an article on some fansite that cuts off in the middle of a sentence.
Do you have anything that is even remotely respectable and credible?
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 02:04:36 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 05, 2009, 12:29:59 PM
...about its extraordinarily deep hatred of the gays, yes.
Well I have also railed against antisemitism and catholic fundamentalism.
Of course, opposing antisemitism and catholic fundamentalism is just furthering the gay agenda through other means. -_-
You have not railed against antisemitism. You hate the Jews more than anybody else on this forum.
Also: Fuck you. You're a filthy Slav.
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:17:20 AM
All I am saying is that very many of Polish nationality fought in the Wehrmacht and that almost no Poles is aware of this today, might be because all alive in -45 were expelled to Germany <_<
I agree with your frowny face. They should have been executed for treason instead. Fucking pussies letting these bastards off the hook like that.
Anyway, I find it hilarious that a fucking Swede is accusing Poles of nazi collaboration.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:19:46 AM
Sorry but the source you gave is an article on some fansite that cuts off in the middle of a sentence.
Do you have anything that is even remotely respectable and credible?
About 3 million poles registred as volksdeutche after the occupation in 39. Google is your friend.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:19:46 AM
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:09:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 06:51:49 AM
:huh: That's not true.
Do you have any sources to back this extraordinary claim?
45.000 German-Poles served under the SS between September -39 and april -40 in Selbstschutz militia units http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47 (http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47)
Unfortuntaly this is a part of the Polish history that Polish historians don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole ( :P ) most of the volkdeutshe was drafted into the Wehrmacht as conscripts (as was a lot, or all able, German speaking French from Alsace-Lorraine after the surrender of France, as was the Sudeten Germans and the Austrians). Which means they weren't catagorised as "Foreign Volunteers" as say the Dutch or Flems, hence the Polish claim that no Poles served the Germans. Nothing extraordinary about my 'claim' more likely that the history taught at Polish schools about WW2 is about as acurate as the Russian..... <_<
Though my claim that more Poles then then any other nationalty served, is a little exaggerated, but a shitload of Poles served and fought in the wehrmacht
Sorry but the source you gave is an article on some fansite that cuts off in the middle of a sentence.
Do you have anything that is even remotely respectable and credible?
An article on a fansite, no matter how shitty, is more credible than your nationalist whining and someone whose brain is damaged from gas station good saying 'It can't be so!'.
Besides, virtually the entire Polish people colaborated with the Holocaust. Poland is utterly evil.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:22:16 AM
I agree with your frowny face. They should have been executed for treason instead. Fucking pussies letting these bastards off the hook like that.
Why would they be executed for treason? After the war, they were your brothers in international communism.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:19:46 AM
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:09:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 06:51:49 AM
:huh: That's not true.
Do you have any sources to back this extraordinary claim?
45.000 German-Poles served under the SS between September -39 and april -40 in Selbstschutz militia units http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47 (http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=47)
Unfortuntaly this is a part of the Polish history that Polish historians don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole ( :P ) most of the volkdeutshe was drafted into the Wehrmacht as conscripts (as was a lot, or all able, German speaking French from Alsace-Lorraine after the surrender of France, as was the Sudeten Germans and the Austrians). Which means they weren't catagorised as "Foreign Volunteers" as say the Dutch or Flems, hence the Polish claim that no Poles served the Germans. Nothing extraordinary about my 'claim' more likely that the history taught at Polish schools about WW2 is about as acurate as the Russian..... <_<
Though my claim that more Poles then then any other nationalty served, is a little exaggerated, but a shitload of Poles served and fought in the wehrmacht
Sorry but the source you gave is an article on some fansite that cuts off in the middle of a sentence.
Do you have anything that is even remotely respectable and credible?
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Selbstschutz_-_World_War_II/id/5452976 (http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Selbstschutz_-_World_War_II/id/5452976)
Edit: Ok just saw it was a quoted Wikipedia article, sorry. :blush:
estimates it at 82.000 Poles.....
And what the fuck do my nationality have to do with anything? I can still call you ignorant. I am
very aware of
exactly what the Swedish government did during WW2 and more what they didn't do. Don't try to turn this argument around. We are discussing what the Poles did during WW2 that
you didn't know about.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 07:24:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:19:46 AM
Sorry but the source you gave is an article on some fansite that cuts off in the middle of a sentence.
Do you have anything that is even remotely respectable and credible?
About 3 million poles registred as volksdeutche after the occupation in 39. Google is your friend.
I think there were two groups there. One that were "automatically" registered by the Germans due to ethnicity and the second group that had to apply to be registered. I would be curious to find the numbers on the second group.
Anyway, it is questionable whether such people can be called "Poles". They were Germans, Silesians, Kashebians etc. both ethnically and culturally, and only had Polish citizenship.
It is a bit duplicitous to insist that on one hand the people who died in the Holocaust were Jews rather than Poles (because they were ethnically and culturally Jews, even though they had Polish citizenship) but at the same time claim that people who joined Wehrmacht were Poles rather than Germans (even though they were ethnically and culturally Germans, but had Polish citizenship).
Both groups were targeted by the Germans (with persecution or privilege, respectively) because of their ethnicity. You can't just count them differently based on the point you are trying to make.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:31:19 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 07:24:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:19:46 AM
Sorry but the source you gave is an article on some fansite that cuts off in the middle of a sentence.
Do you have anything that is even remotely respectable and credible?
About 3 million poles registred as volksdeutche after the occupation in 39. Google is your friend.
I think there were two groups there. One that were "automatically" registered by the Germans due to ethnicity and the second group that had to apply to be registered. I would be curious to find the numbers on the second group.
Anyway, it is questionable whether such people can be called "Poles". They were Germans, Silesians, Kashebians etc. both ethnically and culturally, and only had Polish citizenship.
It is a bit duplicitous to insist that on one hand the people who died in the Holocaust were Jews rather than Poles (because they were ethnically and culturally Jews, even though they had Polish citizenship) but at the same time claim that people who joined Wehrmacht were Poles rather than Germans (even though they were ethnically and culturally Germans, but had Polish citizenship).
Both groups were targeted by the Germans (with persecution or privilege, respectively) because of their ethnicity. You can't just count them differently based on the point you are trying to make.
Like I said, google is your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche
Registration was voulontary.
The Volksdeutsche did the same shit in every East European country...which is why there are very very few Volksdeutsche today.
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:17:20 AM
All I am saying is that very many of Polish nationality fought in the Wehrmacht and that almost no Poles is aware of this today, might be because all alive in -45 were expelled to Germany <_<
Woah so they missed the incredible joy that would have come with living under Stalinism in post-war Poland? Tragic.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:31:19 AM
I think there were two groups there. One that were "automatically" registered by the Germans due to ethnicity and the second group that had to apply to be registered. I would be curious to find the numbers on the second group.
Anyway, it is questionable whether such people can be called "Poles". They were Germans, Silesians, Kashebians etc. both ethnically and culturally, and only had Polish citizenship.
It is a bit duplicitous to insist that on one hand the people who died in the Holocaust were Jews rather than Poles (because they were ethnically and culturally Jews, even though they had Polish citizenship) but at the same time claim that people who joined Wehrmacht were Poles rather than Germans (even though they were ethnically and culturally Germans, but had Polish citizenship).
Both groups were targeted by the Germans (with persecution or privilege, respectively) because of their ethnicity. You can't just count them differently based on the point you are trying to make.
Problem with defining by ethnicity is that is very, very subjective and open to intepretation. What constitutes an in this case ethinc Pole? Some one with two polish parents? Has Polish as a mothertounge? Is one Polish parent enough? Does he/she has to look Polish? Is one grandparant enough to be Polish? By trying to define ethnicity you are skirting very close to what some highly placed Germans discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference) in regards to the Jews.
Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.
Martinus has a good point: the very term "volksdeutche" means that these people were not considered "Poles", but rather ethnic Germans who happened to live in Poland.
No doubt in the case of some "ethnic Germans" who had lived in Poland for centuries this was more or less a convenient fiction ...
It would be interesting to know how many "Poles" who were not "volksdeutche" collaborated. I suspect that some did, which is only to be expected. Under terrible conditions many people would, just to survive. Some Jews collaborated, for example, just in the hope that they would live longer.
On a personal note, after WW2 my mother in law was forcibly moved from Ukraine to what was, prior to the war, Poland, to replace a Volksdeutche family who had fled to the West. My mother in law then escaped to Canada, leaving some relations behind - apparently some time in the 1980s members of this volksdeutche family returned to visit, out of curiousity, their ancestral lands.
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:54:40 AM
Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.
I think somebody saying 'I am not Polish, I am German so therefore I am going to serve in the Waffen-SS and shoot untermensch' is a pretty fair test of who considers themselves German and not Polish.
In any case this is simpy ridiculous. Poland was not some 100% pure white knight of resistance in WWII but to act like they were one of the worst collaborating nations is beyond absurd.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:03:53 AM
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:54:40 AM
Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.
I think somebody saying 'I am not Polish, I am German so therefore I am going to serve in the Waffen-SS and shoot untermensch' is a pretty fair test of who considers themselves German and not Polish.
In any case this is simpy ridiculous. Poland was not some 100% pure white knight of resistance in WWII but to act like they were one of the worst collaborating nations is beyond absurd.
Indeed what is notable is how many Poles went to extraordinary lengths to continue to fight in exile against the Nazis even after their country was overrun.
Nothing is ever simple, especially in that part of the world. I have no reason to love the Poles, my ancestors on my mother's side (well some of 'em) were driven out of Poland before the wars by Polish Jew-hatred; but one has to acknowledge the heroism of the Polish resistance to the Nazis - and how badly they were screwed by the Allies after WW2.
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:54:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 07:31:19 AM
I think there were two groups there. One that were "automatically" registered by the Germans due to ethnicity and the second group that had to apply to be registered. I would be curious to find the numbers on the second group.
Anyway, it is questionable whether such people can be called "Poles". They were Germans, Silesians, Kashebians etc. both ethnically and culturally, and only had Polish citizenship.
It is a bit duplicitous to insist that on one hand the people who died in the Holocaust were Jews rather than Poles (because they were ethnically and culturally Jews, even though they had Polish citizenship) but at the same time claim that people who joined Wehrmacht were Poles rather than Germans (even though they were ethnically and culturally Germans, but had Polish citizenship).
Both groups were targeted by the Germans (with persecution or privilege, respectively) because of their ethnicity. You can't just count them differently based on the point you are trying to make.
Problem with defining by ethnicity is that is very, very subjective and open to intepretation. What constitutes an in this case ethinc Pole? Some one with two polish parents? Has Polish as a mothertounge? Is one Polish parent enough? Does he/she has to look Polish? Is one grandparant enough to be Polish? By trying to define ethnicity you are skirting very close to what some highly placed Germans discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference) in regards to the Jews.
Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.
Well, while obviously the Volkslists were an attempt to subjugate the conquered population by offering a portion of it some special status, Germans were pretty ideological about it. So even though some of the conditions to be considered a Volksdeutsche may have been more lax than others, it wasn't just open to everybody who wanted to sign - you had to show some German ancestry and cultural connection.
So while it is hard to define ethnicity, I suppose it's easier when you have (1) a person considering themselves an ethnic German and (2) the most racist/ethnicity-obsessed regime in history declaring it correct.
Quote from: Malthus on August 06, 2009, 08:08:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:03:53 AM
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 07:54:40 AM
Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.
I think somebody saying 'I am not Polish, I am German so therefore I am going to serve in the Waffen-SS and shoot untermensch' is a pretty fair test of who considers themselves German and not Polish.
In any case this is simpy ridiculous. Poland was not some 100% pure white knight of resistance in WWII but to act like they were one of the worst collaborating nations is beyond absurd.
Indeed what is notable is how many Poles went to extraordinary lengths to continue to fight in exile against the Nazis even after their country was overrun.
Nothing is ever simple, especially in that part of the world. I have no reason to love the Poles, my ancestors on my mother's side (well some of 'em) were driven out of Poland before the wars by Polish Jew-hatred; but one has to acknowledge the heroism of the Polish resistance to the Nazis - and how badly they were screwed by the Allies after WW2.
No question about it. Polish culture of the period (or even still today), especially its "common" or "popular" aspect, has been pretty nasty when it comes to all kinds of xenophobia.
I think this kind of dualism (heroism on one hand, antisemitic and extreme pettiness/viciousness on the other), that perplexes people outside of Poland (and in Poland too, to some degree) may be stemming from the fact that the pre-war Poland was a very class-based society, and different classes simply responded differently.
People who escaped to fight in the British army, or who continued the resistance in Poland were mainly of the middle and upper class, and either city-dwellers or landowners. People who organised pogroms or persecuted Jews were lower class, mainly rural, Catholic and uneducated (in Polish folklore, the "Jew" has been traditionally considered a tool of the evil landlord who oppresses the poor masses etc.)
This is actually a reason why the post-war Poland was (and continues to be to some degree) so fucked up - because the WW2 not only decimated the populace, but it pretty much destroyed the middle and upper class, which is the one responsible for progress and civilization (for example, about 90% of Warsaw inhabitants today come from families that did not live in Warsaw pre-WW2).
This also explains why the Polish catholic church is so fucked up, too - to be an intellectual in Poland was to be anti-catholic. The majority of the catholic church hierarchy came from the lower classes.
Conversation so far:
Poles did not collaborate with Germany.
Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.
Well, those were not real poles.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:30:56 AM
Conversation so far:
Poles did not collaborate with Germany.
Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.
Well, those were not real poles.
It was 82.000 in Ape's last post, and suddenly it's "hundreds of thousands"? Wow, and I thought inflation didn't happen anymore.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:30:56 AM
Conversation so far:
Poles did not collaborate with Germany.
Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.
Well, those were not real poles.
It is not so surprising when one remembers that, pre-WW2, the borders of Poland had moved around quite a bit - and indeed the "absorbtion" of millions of ethnic germans in the countries created or moved following WW1 was a major excuse for WW2.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2009, 08:32:30 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:30:56 AM
Conversation so far:
Poles did not collaborate with Germany.
Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.
Well, those were not real poles.
It was 82.000 in Ape's last post, and suddenly it's "hundreds of thousands"? Wow, and I thought inflation didn't happen anymore.
82 000 served in the SS, all those who registred as volkdeutche were subject to conscription into the german army.
Quote from: Malthus on August 06, 2009, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:30:56 AM
Conversation so far:
Poles did not collaborate with Germany.
Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.
Well, those were not real poles.
It is not so surprising when one remembers that, pre-WW2, the borders of Poland had moved around quite a bit - and indeed the "absorbtion" of millions of ethnic germans in the countries created or moved following WW1 was a major excuse for WW2.
How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:30:56 AM
Poles did not collaborate with Germany.
I suppose you might come to that conclusion is you were an illiterate idiot. Remember kids saying Poland was not a major collaborator is equivalent to saying there was not a single Polish collaborator.
QuoteUh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.
Made up numbers are fun.
QuoteWell, those were not real poles.
They self identified as such dude.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..
When did World War II happen according to you? 1876 or 2005?
Oh and Poland, and the other eastern Euro states, were ethnically based states. So yeah ethnicity plays a big role here.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..
That's the century those event took place in.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
They self identified as such dude.
Is this in any way relevant in your opinion?
Quote from: Malthus on August 06, 2009, 08:40:02 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..
That's the century those event took place in.
Really? WW2 took place in the 20th century?
This conversation takes place now. Are you really comfortable with advocating the idea that nationality should be based on ethnicity? And that "illoyal" citizens of a certain ethnicity should not be considered nationals of their country, but instead nationals of their "preferred" choice?
:blink:
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:42:56 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 06, 2009, 08:40:02 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..
That's the century those event took place in.
Really? WW2 took place in the 20th century?
This conversation takes place now. Are you really comfortable with advocating the idea that nationality should be based on ethnicity? And that "illoyal" citizens of a certain ethnicity should not be considered nationals of their country, but instead nationals of their "preferred" choice?
My opinion on the desireability of basing citizenship on ethnicity is quite irrelevant.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:40:25 AM
Is this in any way relevant in your opinion?
My opinion is backed up by entire armies fighting for the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. My opinion is backed up by a massive domestically based resistance movement that had a significant impact on the war. My opinion is backed up by the fact these things were not present in most of the other occupied territories.
It is also relevent because the Flemish, French. Norwegians and the other people who joined up as foreigners plainly considered themselves Flemish, French and Norwegians and not Germans. The "Poles" who joined up did not join the special Polish division of the SS, they joined the German Army eager to identify themselves as Germans. That is a significant difference.
So I am eager to hear why I should ignore the Polish resistance movement, the Polish western allies and so forth and consider the Poles one of the worst collaborators...
Oh right because they had lots of people who considered themselves not Polish but Germans inside their borders.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:42:56 AM
Really? WW2 took place in the 20th century?
This conversation takes place now. Are you really comfortable with advocating the idea that nationality should be based on ethnicity? And that "illoyal" citizens of a certain ethnicity should not be considered nationals of their country, but instead nationals of their "preferred" choice?
I am perfectly comfortable pointing out that nations founded in the 20th century explicitly in the name of ethnicity were, in fact, based on ethnicity. I am perfectly comfortable pointing out that Hungarians in Czechoslovakia were more loyal to Hungary than to the country they lived in because that was an entirely predictable result of trying to divide Eastern Europe up according to ethnic lines.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:45:19 AMMy opinion is backed up by the fact these things were not present in most of the other occupied territories.
You forgot: Yugoslavia. :(
Also Greece.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:37:31 AM
82 000 served in the SS, all those who registred as volkdeutche were subject to conscription into the german army.
under not
in :contract: the
Selbstschutz units was disbanded in April -40 and most members was likely drafted into the
WehrmachtAs for how many Polish
nationals that served in the
Wehrmacht is harder to determine without examaning the German records from -39 and onwards. But you can do calculations.
3 million registered
VolkdeutscheAbout 10% of the total population is available for immidiate conscription based on age (19-35), gender and suitability (based on the Swedish defense forces from the 1980ies with a population of just over 8 million had a mobilized armed forces of about 800.000 men)
So without actully pulling numbers out of my ass the number of Polish nationals serving in the
Wehrmacht during the war would number at lest 300.000, but it is not substantiated, nor can it be on the Internet and without a copy of the German recruitment papers available.
Quote from: Caliga on August 06, 2009, 08:51:32 AM
You forgot: Yugoslavia. :(
Also Greece.
Um...I said most.
However, neither Greece nor Yugoslavia had anything beyond a home grown resistance movement that I am aware of.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:53:46 AM
However, neither Greece nor Yugoslavia had anything beyond a home grown resistance movement that I am aware of.
Well true, though both were supplied and supported in other ways by the Allies. From a strategic standpoint I would say Tito's partisans were the most successful in WWII, since they liberated most of the country before the Allies arrived. Of course, they only did so (for the most part) after the Germans were seriously getting their shit pushed in elsewhere and began withdrawing the bulk of their garrison forces.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:45:19 AM
It is also relevent because the Flemish, French. Norwegians and the other people who joined up as foreigners plainly considered themselves Flemish, French and Norwegians and not Germans. The "Poles" who joined up did not join the special Polish division of the SS, they joined the German Army eager to identify themselves as Germans. That is a significant difference.
So I am eager to hear why I should ignore the Polish resistance movement, the Polish western allies and so forth and consider the Poles one of the worst collaborators...
Oh right because they had lots of people who considered themselves not Polish but Germans inside their borders.
Umm Valmy you are aware of that an amount of Alsacians were conscripted in the German army that had French as their mothertounge and considered themselves French are you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Soldier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Soldier) Is an autobiography of one such veteran.
So it was not necessery to consider
yourself German to be conscripted, only that the German conscription agency had to consider you as such.
That was a great book. :cool:
Quote from: Caliga on August 06, 2009, 09:03:18 AM
That was a great book. :cool:
It is indeed :thumbsup: I almost hope Veerhoven will get to do a film on the book
Quote from: Ape on August 06, 2009, 09:02:18 AM
Umm Valmy you are aware of that an amount of Alsacians were conscripted in the German army that had French as their mothertounge and considered themselves French are you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Soldier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Soldier) Is an autobiography of one such veteran.
So it was not necessery to consider yourself German to be conscripted, only that the German conscription agency had to consider you as such.
Apples to Oranges. The parts of Poland annexed to Germany were under specific instructions by Hitler to remove all Poles to the General Government. No such order was ever made to Alsace-Lorraine.
Quote from: Caliga on August 06, 2009, 09:03:18 AM
That was a great book. :cool:
Any Nazi cyborgs in it? ;)
Sadly no. It was: historically accurate :weep:
Reinhard Heydrich has a nude scene in it.
Quote from: Malthus on August 06, 2009, 09:10:39 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 06, 2009, 09:03:18 AM
That was a great book. :cool:
Any Nazi cyborgs in it? ;)
If Veerhoven do a film, maybe there will be :tinfoil:
I think this thread is getting away from the point: Martinus is a piece of shit, who is personally responsible for the Holocaust.
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: POTM in absentia.
Quote from: Malthus on August 06, 2009, 08:44:16 AM
My opinion on the desireability of basing citizenship on ethnicity is quite irrelevant.
How can it be irrelevant when it is your base for claiming that the (vast majority of) poles who collaborated were not really poles at all, because of their ethnicity?
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:45:19 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:40:25 AM
Is this in any way relevant in your opinion?
My opinion is backed up by entire armies fighting for the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. My opinion is backed up by a massive domestically based resistance movement that had a significant impact on the war. My opinion is backed up by the fact these things were not present in most of the other occupied territories.
It is also relevent because the Flemish, French. Norwegians and the other people who joined up as foreigners plainly considered themselves Flemish, French and Norwegians and not Germans. The "Poles" who joined up did not join the special Polish division of the SS, they joined the German Army eager to identify themselves as Germans. That is a significant difference.
So I am eager to hear why I should ignore the Polish resistance movement, the Polish western allies and so forth and consider the Poles one of the worst collaborators...
Oh right because they had lots of people who considered themselves not Polish but Germans inside their borders.
Cool. My opinion is backed up by NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
I have never claimed the poles were the worst collaborators. What I have been trying to point out is that several hundred thousands of poles fought in german uniform with the german army. That little fact puts a rather nasty dent in the shining armor of "the number of poles who collaborated was very small". To argue that these polish citizens were in fact not poles at all, because of their ethnicity is wrong, because nationality is not determined on ethnicity.
Not to mention that the vast majority of poles were falling all over themselves to collaborate with the holocaust. But
that is a different story.
:huh: Oh come now, like all of Europe doesn't hate the Jews. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 07:34:24 AM
Like I said, google is your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche
Registration was voulontary.
Reading is your friend
QuotePoles were greatly encouraged to register themselves, in many cases forced or even subject to terror if they refused[15]
QuoteNot to mention that the vast majority of poles were falling all over themselves to collaborate with the holocaust. But that is a different story.
Vast majority? :rolleyes: Any source to back that?
Also, who the fuck are you anyway?
Quote from: Sahib on August 06, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Vast majority? :rolleyes: Any source to back that?
Google anti-semitism in poland or whatever.
Here is an interesting start. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1706315,00.html
Quote
Gross provides extensive evidence of how many Poles chased away or killed Jewish Holocaust survivors, often out of fear that returning Jews would reclaim their property that had, during the occupation, been taken over by other Poles.
Quote from: Sahib on August 06, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Vast majority? :rolleyes: Any source to back that?
Martinus is my source.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 01:21:12 PM
Google anti-semitism in poland or whatever.
I could find generic info on antisemitism in Poland quite easly, I'm asking for a specific one supporting your statement of "vast majority" of Poles collaborating with holocaust.
Quote from: Sahib on August 06, 2009, 01:31:01 PM
I could find generic info on antisemitism in Poland quite easly, I'm asking for a specific one supporting your statement of "vast majority" of Poles collaborating with holocaust.
I just gave you a link to a newspaper report on a book on that exact subject. What more do you want?
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 01:34:54 PM
I just gave you a link to a newspaper report on a book on that exact subject. What more do you want?
There's nothing about a "vast majority" there :huh:
Quote from: Sahib on August 06, 2009, 01:37:29 PM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 01:34:54 PM
I just gave you a link to a newspaper report on a book on that exact subject. What more do you want?
There's nothing about a "vast majority" there :huh:
His conclusions are harsh: "A very brutal anti-semitism was widespread in Poland," he told his audience.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 12:52:03 PM
I have never claimed the poles were the worst collaborators.
Ok then why the fuck did you jump in and start arguing with me when that was my entire point? Just to be a general asshole? Not that that would be out of place around here or anything...
QuoteTo argue that these polish citizens were in fact not poles at all, because of their ethnicity is wrong, because nationality is not determined on ethnicity.
Ok how fucking dense can you be? Are you implying that during the 1921 war between Greece and Turkey there was no difference in affiliation between all Turkish citizens regardless of whether they were ethnically Greek or not? I guess some Turkish cities were just filled with traitors who self-loathed their Turkish homeland. :rolleyes:
Oh and there was no nationality problem in the Austro-Hungarian Empire because they all had Austro-Hungarian citizenship!!!!111 OMG! One wonders why the 1867 compromise was necessary in the first place.
Seriously lay off the crack pipe. This has to be the singularly most idiotic thing I have ever seen argued on the internet. There is no ethnicity in Eastern Europe only government defined citizenship? Hilarious.
Quote from: Sahib on August 06, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Vast majority? :rolleyes: Any source to back that?
It seems simply hating the Jews and being glad to see them go is all you need to collaborate with the Holocaust. I would like to see Poles, you know, sign up to work in Death camps or something like the Balts tended to do and not just being glad to swoop in and take the Jews shit once they were gone...but anyway.
QuoteAlso, who the fuck are you anyway?
A guy who thinks people's identity was entirely defined by what government gave them citizenship. In Eastern Europe. In the 20th Century.
Therefore we can assume he is: a complete moron.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 02:37:33 PM
Ok how fucking dense can you be? Are you implying that during the 1921 war between Greece and Turkey there was no difference in affiliation between all Turkish citizens regardless of whether they were ethnically Greek or not? I guess some Turkish cities were just filled with traitors who self-loathed their Turkish homeland. :rolleyes:
Oh and there was no nationality problem in the Austro-Hungarian Empire because they all had Austro-Hungarian citizenship!!!!111 OMG! One wonders why the 1867 compromise was necessary in the first place.
Seriously lay off the crack pipe. This has to be the singularly most idiotic thing I have ever seen argued on the internet. There is no ethnicity in Eastern Europe only government defined citizenship? Hilarious.
It seems to me that in neither Austria-Hungary and Turkey were ethnic classification as blurry and transferrable as they were in occupied Poland.
Large numbers of Polish citizens opted for German status and collaborated with the Reich. To say in retrospect that they were not true Poles and that true Poles did not collaborate is a True Scotsman argument.
I see no evidence of large scale Polish participation in the Holocaust. But that raises two issues: Poland was administered directly by the Reich and Polish Jews were pretty passive in first relocating to the ghettos and then to the extirmination camps. So it's a hypothetical; IF Poland had been self-governing and IF the Jews had resisted relocation would the Poles have rounded them up as the Vichy French did?
The fact that the Poles thought that there were way too many Jews in Poland in 1946 kinda says it all.
Quote from: Tyr on August 05, 2009, 10:55:05 AM
The tasteless angle is what they'll see.
And they'd be right.
QuoteIn such a world, the city of Warsaw swarms with war machines and robots and it becomes an even more ominous and infernal place than it really was 65 years ago.
What a moronic thing to say. Has our culture become so superficial and bedazzled by spectacle that the only way to make Warsaw in 1944 look "ominous" is to add computer-generated cartoon cyborgs?
The potential of human beings is without bound, a fact proven by the creative energy expended in testing the limits of the stupid.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2009, 03:03:01 PM
Large numbers of Polish citizens opted for German status and collaborated with the Reich. To say in retrospect that they were not true Poles and that true Poles did not collaborate is a True Scotsman argument.
I knew somebody was going to bring this up. Let me put it to you this way: less than 70% of pre-war Polish citizens self-identified as Poles. Nobody is saying in retrospect they were not Poles, they said beforehand that they themselves were not Poles.
QuoteI see no evidence of large scale Polish participation in the Holocaust. But that raises two issues: Poland was administered directly by the Reich and Polish Jews were pretty passive in first relocating to the ghettos and then to the extirmination camps. So it's a hypothetical; IF Poland had been self-governing and IF the Jews had resisted relocation would the Poles have rounded them up as the Vichy French did?
Possibly. I am sure there were Poles that would have considered their Jews a reasonable sacrifice for their sham independence. Especially if they had attempted to emulate a fascist state like the Vichyites did.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..
Defining citizens on the basis of nationality is so 19th century.
21st century is all about "identity". And how did the "Polish" SS volunteers identify themselves? Not as Poles, I would surmise.
Now let's be fair. Polish is, by definition, an ethnic label (albeit an extinct one; Today's Poles are actually Russian). The state of Poland is illegitimate, and is rightfully a part of Germany, Russia and Austria.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:22:16 PM
21st century is all about "identity". And how did the "Polish" SS volunteers identify themselves? Not as Poles, I would surmise.
I have to assume these were ethnic Germans. I mean, really... Slavic SS units?
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:24:16 PM
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 03:19:23 PM
I knew somebody was going to bring this up. Let me put it to you this way: less than 70% of pre-war Polish citizens self-identified as Poles. Nobody is saying in retrospect they were not Poles, they said beforehand that they themselves were not Poles.
70% sounds like it just about accounts for the Jews and Ukrainians.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:24:16 PM
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
Strange, because it sure seemed to work for those ethnic Germans who moved to Germany from the Soviet Union after 1989.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:25:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:24:16 PM
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.
I would imagine that would very much depend on where you are from in Europe, wouldn't it?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
70% sounds like it just about accounts for the Jews and Ukrainians.
Wrong, though the majority of the non-Polish Polish citizens were of those two groups. It does destroy the weak 'all Polish citizens are Poles argument though, nobody at the time thought that not even the Polish citizens.
By the way between 2-3% of Polish Citizens indentified themselves as Germans. What percentage of the population later registered as Volksdeutsch?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:25:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:24:16 PM
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.
Feel free to post on topic.
Quote from: Neil on August 06, 2009, 03:29:22 PM
I would imagine that would very much depend on where you are from in Europe, wouldn't it?
Not really. Most of the countries that count are in.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:35:18 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:25:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:24:16 PM
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.
Feel free to post on topic.
OK
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality. Including the right to make a moronic movie about the Warsaw Uprising.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:35:18 PM
Feel free to post on topic.
The movie still sounds like shit.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:37:44 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:35:18 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:25:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2009, 03:24:16 PM
Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.
Feel free to post on topic.
OK
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality. Including the right to make a moronic movie about the Warsaw Uprising.
Fine, be that guy.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 03:30:50 PM
Wrong, though the majority of the non-Polish Polish citizens were of those two groups. It does destroy the weak 'all Polish citizens are Poles argument though, nobody at the time thought that not even the Polish citizens.
By the way between 2-3% of Polish Citizens indentified themselves as Germans. What percentage of the population later registered as Volksdeutsch?
What is the correct percentage of Jews and Ukrainians?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2009, 03:42:44 PM
What is the correct percentage of Jews and Ukrainians?
14% Ukrainians
8.5% Jews
3% Belorussians
According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic#Demographics
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2009, 03:36:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 06, 2009, 03:29:22 PM
I would imagine that would very much depend on where you are from in Europe, wouldn't it?
Not really. Most of the countries that count are in.
Sorry, but you don't get to be dismissive of large swathes of humanity. That's my game.
You voted for Obama, you have to sing 'We Are The World' and think that everybody is special and unique.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
70% sounds like it just about accounts for the Jews and Ukrainians.
Wrong, though the majority of the non-Polish Polish citizens were of those two groups. It does destroy the weak 'all Polish citizens are Poles argument though, nobody at the time thought that not even the Polish citizens.
By the way between 2-3% of Polish Citizens indentified themselves as Germans. What percentage of the population later registered as Volksdeutsch?
From the wikipedia:
In occupied Poland, the status of "Volksdeutscher" gave many privileges, but one big disadvantage: Volksdeutsche were subject to conscription into the German army.
The Deutsche Volksliste categorised Poles into one of 4 categories:[16][17]
Category I: Persons of German descent who had engaged themselves in favour of the Reich before 1939.
Category II: Persons of German descent who had remained passive.
Category III: Persons of German descent who had become partly "polonized", e.g. through marrying a Polish partner or through working relationships (especially Silesians and Kashubians).
Category IV: Persons of German ancestry who had become "polonized" but were supportive of "Germanisation".
Volksdeutsche of statuses 1 and 2 in the Polish areas annexed by Germany numbered 1,000,000, and Nos. 3 and 4 numbered 1,700,000. In the General Government there were 120,000 Volksdeutsche.
Deutsche Volksliste, early 1944
Cat. I Cat. II Cat. III Cat. IV
Warthegau 230,000 190,000 65,000 25,000
Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia 115,000 95,000 725,000 2,000
East Upper Silesia 130,000 210,000 875,000 55,000
South East Prussia 9,000 22,000 13,000 1,000
Total 484,000 517,000 1,678,000 83,000
Source: Wilhelm Deist, Bernhard R Kroener, Germany (Federal Republic). Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt, Germany and the Second World War, Oxford University Press, 2003, pp.132,133, ISBN 0198208731, citing Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik, p.134
Quote from: Neil on August 06, 2009, 03:53:22 PM
You voted for Obama, you have to sing 'We Are The World' and think that everybody is special and unique.
I'm glad I sided with Hilarry "Don't be crazy, North Korea / We'll kick your ass, Iran" Clinton and Sarah "What are you Russians doing over there, don't you try and come in my backyard" Palin. :wub:
I took a quick look through my copy of Ferguson's "The War of the World" to see what I could find of relevance.
"Of the 9.5 million poeple in the incorporated territories, 370,000 were already Reich Germans, a further 353,000 were acknowledged as fully fledged ethnic Germans, 1.7 million were Poles who had satisfied the criteria for inclusion in Groups I and II (and hence automatically became Reich citizens) and 1.6 million were Poles in Group III (who could become citizens only on a case-by-case basis and even then remained subject to discrimination)."
This gives a sense of the magnitudes. Unfortunately I couldn't find any discussion of the part played by Poles in choosing their status, which is the crux of our discussion.
I also stumbled across a discussion of the pograms initiated after the 1940 conquest: Jedwabne, Josefow, Radzilow, Oleksin, Krakow were all places where Poles either helped Germans to round up and kill Jews or did it all themselves while the Germans watched and took pictures.
(Looks like Valmy came up with some similar info.)
Quote from: Neil on August 06, 2009, 03:53:22 PM
Sorry, but you don't get to be dismissive of large swathes of humanity. That's my game.
I'm not being dismissive of large swathes of humanity. I am being dismissive of meager clusters of GDP. It is a very different concept even if the effect sometimes ends up the same.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2009, 08:45:19 AM
Quote from: Bluebook on August 06, 2009, 08:40:25 AM
Is this in any way relevant in your opinion?
My opinion is backed up by entire armies fighting for the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. My opinion is backed up by a massive domestically based resistance movement that had a significant impact on the war. My opinion is backed up by the fact these things were not present in most of the other occupied territories.
It is also relevent because the Flemish, French. Norwegians and the other people who joined up as foreigners plainly considered themselves Flemish, French and Norwegians and not Germans. The "Poles" who joined up did not join the special Polish division of the SS, they joined the German Army eager to identify themselves as Germans. That is a significant difference.
So I am eager to hear why I should ignore the Polish resistance movement, the Polish western allies and so forth and consider the Poles one of the worst collaborators...
Oh right because they had lots of people who considered themselves not Polish but Germans inside their borders.
Well weren't the Poles fighting for the Soviet Union also collaborators? Just not collaborating with the nazis.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2009, 04:39:05 PM
Well weren't the Poles fighting for the Soviet Union also collaborators? Just not collaborating with the nazis.
They weren't real Poles they were Volksrusskies!
Ok well yes I guess the Poles did collaborate with Stalin.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2009, 04:39:05 PM
Well weren't the Poles fighting for the Soviet Union also collaborators? Just not collaborating with the nazis.
They did so thinking that if they helped the Russians reconquer Poland, Stalin would allow for free elections. They thought this because the Allies made Stalin promise to do that, and Stalin agreed that he would.
Unfortunately for the Poles, he kinda lied about that.