Movie: Hardkor 44 - Warsaw uprising meets "300"

[Valmy]

70% sounds like it just about accounts for the Jews and Ukrainians.

Wrong, though the majority of the non-Polish Polish citizens were of those two groups.  It does destroy the weak 'all Polish citizens are Poles argument though, nobody at the time thought that not even the Polish citizens.

By the way between 2-3% of Polish Citizens indentified themselves as Germans.  What percentage of the population later registered as Volksdeutsch?

[The Brain]

Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.

In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.

Feel free to post on topic.

[The Minsky Moment]

I would imagine that would very much depend on where you are from in Europe, wouldn't it?

Not really.  Most of the countries that count are in.

[The Minsky Moment]

Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.

In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.

Feel free to post on topic.

OK
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.  Including the right to make a moronic movie about the Warsaw Uprising.

[Ed Anger]

Feel free to post on topic.

The movie still sounds like shit.

[The Brain]

Maybe identity is used to define nationality in America but in Europe we have this thing called citizenship. I can't go to Denmark and demand to vote just because I self identify as Danish.

In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.

Feel free to post on topic.

OK
In Europe you have this thing called the European Union and you can move around all you want and immediately secure a broad array of civil rights regardless of nationality.  Including the right to make a moronic movie about the Warsaw Uprising.

Fine, be that guy.

[Admiral Yi]

Wrong, though the majority of the non-Polish Polish citizens were of those two groups.  It does destroy the weak 'all Polish citizens are Poles argument though, nobody at the time thought that not even the Polish citizens.

By the way between 2-3% of Polish Citizens indentified themselves as Germans.  What percentage of the population later registered as Volksdeutsch?

What is the correct percentage of Jews and Ukrainians?

[Valmy]

What is the correct percentage of Jews and Ukrainians?

14% Ukrainians
8.5% Jews
3% Belorussians

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic#Demographics

[Neil]

I would imagine that would very much depend on where you are from in Europe, wouldn't it?

Not really.  Most of the countries that count are in.

Sorry, but you don't get to be dismissive of large swathes of humanity.  That's my game.

You voted for Obama, you have to sing 'We Are The World' and think that everybody is special and unique.

[Sahib]

70% sounds like it just about accounts for the Jews and Ukrainians.

Wrong, though the majority of the non-Polish Polish citizens were of those two groups.  It does destroy the weak 'all Polish citizens are Poles argument though, nobody at the time thought that not even the Polish citizens.

By the way between 2-3% of Polish Citizens indentified themselves as Germans.  What percentage of the population later registered as Volksdeutsch?

From the wikipedia:

In occupied Poland, the status of "Volksdeutscher" gave many privileges, but one big disadvantage: Volksdeutsche were subject to conscription into the German army.

The Deutsche Volksliste categorised Poles into one of 4 categories:[16][17]
Category I: Persons of German descent who had engaged themselves in favour of the Reich before 1939.
Category II: Persons of German descent who had remained passive.
Category III: Persons of German descent who had become partly "polonized", e.g. through marrying a Polish partner or through working relationships (especially Silesians and Kashubians).
Category IV: Persons of German ancestry who had become "polonized" but were supportive of "Germanisation".

Volksdeutsche of statuses 1 and 2 in the Polish areas annexed by Germany numbered 1,000,000, and Nos. 3 and 4 numbered 1,700,000. In the General Government there were 120,000 Volksdeutsche.
Deutsche Volksliste, early 1944
Cat. I   Cat. II   Cat. III   Cat. IV
Warthegau   230,000   190,000   65,000   25,000
Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia   115,000   95,000   725,000   2,000
East Upper Silesia   130,000   210,000   875,000   55,000
South East Prussia   9,000   22,000   13,000   1,000
Total   484,000   517,000   1,678,000   83,000
Source: Wilhelm Deist, Bernhard R Kroener, Germany (Federal Republic). Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt, Germany and the Second World War, Oxford University Press, 2003, pp.132,133, ISBN 0198208731, citing Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik, p.134

[garbon]

You voted for Obama, you have to sing 'We Are The World' and think that everybody is special and unique.

I'm glad I sided with Hilarry "Don't be crazy, North Korea / We'll kick your ass, Iran" Clinton and Sarah "What are you Russians doing over there, don't you try and come in my backyard" Palin.

[Admiral Yi]

I took a quick look through my copy of Ferguson's "The War of the World" to see what I could find of relevance.

"Of the 9.5 million poeple in the incorporated territories, 370,000 were already Reich Germans, a further 353,000 were acknowledged as fully fledged ethnic Germans, 1.7 million were Poles who had satisfied the criteria for inclusion in Groups I and II (and hence automatically became Reich citizens) and 1.6 million were Poles in Group III (who could become citizens only on a case-by-case basis and even then remained subject to discrimination)."

This gives a sense of the magnitudes.  Unfortunately I couldn't find any discussion of the part played by Poles in choosing their status, which is the crux of our discussion.

I also stumbled across a discussion of the pograms initiated after the 1940 conquest: Jedwabne, Josefow, Radzilow, Oleksin, Krakow were all places where Poles either helped Germans to round up and kill Jews or did it all themselves while the Germans watched and took pictures.

(Looks like Valmy came up with some similar info.)

[The Minsky Moment]

Sorry, but you don't get to be dismissive of large swathes of humanity.  That's my game.

I'm not being dismissive of large swathes of humanity.  I am being dismissive of meager clusters of GDP.  It is a very different concept even if the effect sometimes ends up the same.

[Razgovory]

Is this in any way relevant in your opinion?

My opinion is backed up by entire armies fighting for the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.  My opinion is backed up by a massive domestically based resistance movement that had a significant impact on the war.  My opinion is backed up by the fact these things were not present in most of the other occupied territories.

It is also relevent because the Flemish, French. Norwegians and the other people who joined up as foreigners plainly considered themselves Flemish, French and Norwegians and not Germans.  The "Poles" who joined up did not join the special Polish division of the SS, they joined the German Army eager to identify themselves as Germans.  That is a significant difference.

So I am eager to hear why I should ignore the Polish resistance movement, the Polish western allies and so forth and consider the Poles one of the worst collaborators...

Oh right because they had lots of people who considered themselves not Polish but Germans inside their borders.

Well weren't the Poles fighting for the Soviet Union also collaborators?  Just not collaborating with the nazis.

[Valmy]

Well weren't the Poles fighting for the Soviet Union also collaborators?  Just not collaborating with the nazis.

They weren't real Poles they were Volksrusskies!

Ok well yes I guess the Poles did collaborate with Stalin.