Movie: Hardkor 44 - Warsaw uprising meets "300"

[Valmy]

The Volksdeutsche did the same shit in every East European country...which is why there are very very few Volksdeutsche today.

[Valmy]

All I am saying is that very many of Polish nationality fought in the Wehrmacht and that almost no Poles is aware of this today, might be because all alive in -45 were expelled to Germany 

Woah so they missed the incredible joy that would have come with living under Stalinism in post-war Poland?  Tragic.

[Ape]

I think there were two groups there. One that were "automatically" registered by the Germans due to ethnicity and the second group that had to apply to be registered. I would be curious to find the numbers on the second group.

Anyway, it is questionable whether such people can be called "Poles". They were Germans, Silesians, Kashebians etc. both ethnically and culturally, and only had Polish citizenship.

It is a bit duplicitous to insist that on one hand the people who died in the Holocaust were Jews rather than Poles (because they were ethnically and culturally Jews, even though they had Polish citizenship) but at the same time claim that people who joined Wehrmacht were Poles rather than Germans (even though they were ethnically and culturally Germans, but had Polish citizenship).

Both groups were targeted by the Germans (with persecution or privilege, respectively) because of their ethnicity. You can't just count them differently based on the point you are trying to make.

Problem with defining by ethnicity is that is very, very subjective and open to intepretation. What constitutes an in this case ethinc Pole? Some one with two polish parents? Has Polish as a mothertounge? Is one Polish parent enough? Does he/she has to look Polish? Is one grandparant enough to be Polish? By trying to define ethnicity you are skirting very close to what some highly placed Germans discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference in regards to the Jews.

Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.

[Malthus]

Martinus has a good point: the very term "volksdeutche" means that these people were not considered "Poles", but rather ethnic Germans who happened to live in Poland.

No doubt in the case of some "ethnic Germans" who had lived in Poland for centuries this was more or less a convenient fiction ...

It would be interesting to know how many "Poles" who were not "volksdeutche" collaborated. I suspect that some did, which is only to be expected. Under terrible conditions many people would, just to survive. Some Jews collaborated, for example, just in the hope that they would live longer. 

On a personal note, after WW2 my mother in law was forcibly moved from Ukraine to what was, prior to the war, Poland, to replace a Volksdeutche family who had fled to the West. My mother in law then escaped to Canada, leaving some relations behind - apparently some time in the 1980s members of this volksdeutche family returned to visit, out of curiousity, their ancestral lands.

[Valmy]

Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.

I think somebody saying 'I am not Polish, I am German so therefore I am going to serve in the Waffen-SS and shoot untermensch' is a pretty fair test of who considers themselves German and not Polish.

In any case this is simpy ridiculous.  Poland was not some 100% pure white knight of resistance in WWII but to act like they were one of the worst collaborating nations is beyond absurd.

[Malthus]

Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.

I think somebody saying 'I am not Polish, I am German so therefore I am going to serve in the Waffen-SS and shoot untermensch' is a pretty fair test of who considers themselves German and not Polish.

In any case this is simpy ridiculous.  Poland was not some 100% pure white knight of resistance in WWII but to act like they were one of the worst collaborating nations is beyond absurd.

Indeed what is notable is how many Poles went to extraordinary lengths to continue to fight in exile against the Nazis even after their country was overrun.

Nothing is ever simple, especially in that part of the world. I have no reason to love the Poles, my ancestors on my mother's side (well some of 'em) were driven out of Poland before the wars by Polish Jew-hatred; but one has to acknowledge the heroism of the Polish resistance to the Nazis - and how badly they were screwed by the Allies after WW2.

[Martinus]

I think there were two groups there. One that were "automatically" registered by the Germans due to ethnicity and the second group that had to apply to be registered. I would be curious to find the numbers on the second group.

Anyway, it is questionable whether such people can be called "Poles". They were Germans, Silesians, Kashebians etc. both ethnically and culturally, and only had Polish citizenship.

It is a bit duplicitous to insist that on one hand the people who died in the Holocaust were Jews rather than Poles (because they were ethnically and culturally Jews, even though they had Polish citizenship) but at the same time claim that people who joined Wehrmacht were Poles rather than Germans (even though they were ethnically and culturally Germans, but had Polish citizenship).

Both groups were targeted by the Germans (with persecution or privilege, respectively) because of their ethnicity. You can't just count them differently based on the point you are trying to make.

Problem with defining by ethnicity is that is very, very subjective and open to intepretation. What constitutes an in this case ethinc Pole? Some one with two polish parents? Has Polish as a mothertounge? Is one Polish parent enough? Does he/she has to look Polish? Is one grandparant enough to be Polish? By trying to define ethnicity you are skirting very close to what some highly placed Germans discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference in regards to the Jews.

Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.

Well, while obviously the Volkslists were an attempt to subjugate the conquered population by offering a portion of it some special status, Germans were pretty ideological about it. So even though some of the conditions to be considered a Volksdeutsche may have been more lax than others, it wasn't just open to everybody who wanted to sign - you had to show some German ancestry and cultural connection.

So while it is hard to define ethnicity, I suppose it's easier when you have (1) a person considering themselves an ethnic German and (2) the most racist/ethnicity-obsessed regime in history declaring it correct.

[Martinus]

Nationality is much easier to define and not open to intepretation.

I think somebody saying 'I am not Polish, I am German so therefore I am going to serve in the Waffen-SS and shoot untermensch' is a pretty fair test of who considers themselves German and not Polish.

In any case this is simpy ridiculous.  Poland was not some 100% pure white knight of resistance in WWII but to act like they were one of the worst collaborating nations is beyond absurd.

Indeed what is notable is how many Poles went to extraordinary lengths to continue to fight in exile against the Nazis even after their country was overrun.

Nothing is ever simple, especially in that part of the world. I have no reason to love the Poles, my ancestors on my mother's side (well some of 'em) were driven out of Poland before the wars by Polish Jew-hatred; but one has to acknowledge the heroism of the Polish resistance to the Nazis - and how badly they were screwed by the Allies after WW2.

No question about it. Polish culture of the period (or even still today), especially its "common" or "popular" aspect, has been pretty nasty when it comes to all kinds of xenophobia.

I think this kind of dualism (heroism on one hand, antisemitic and extreme pettiness/viciousness on the other), that perplexes people outside of Poland (and in Poland too, to some degree) may be stemming from the fact that the pre-war Poland was a very class-based society, and different classes simply responded differently.

People who escaped to fight in the British army, or who continued the resistance in Poland were mainly of the middle and upper class, and either city-dwellers or landowners. People who organised pogroms or persecuted Jews were lower class, mainly rural, Catholic and uneducated (in Polish folklore, the "Jew" has been traditionally considered a tool of the evil landlord who oppresses the poor masses etc.)

This is actually a reason why the post-war Poland was (and continues to be to some degree) so fucked up - because the WW2 not only decimated the populace, but it pretty much destroyed the middle and upper class, which is the one responsible for progress and civilization (for example, about 90% of Warsaw inhabitants today come from families that did not live in Warsaw pre-WW2).

This also explains why the Polish catholic church is so fucked up, too - to be an intellectual in Poland was to be anti-catholic. The majority of the catholic church hierarchy came from the lower classes.

[Bluebook]

Conversation so far:

Poles did not collaborate with Germany.

Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.

Well, those were not real poles.

[Martinus]

Conversation so far:

Poles did not collaborate with Germany.

Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.

Well, those were not real poles.

It was 82.000 in Ape's last post, and suddenly it's "hundreds of thousands"? Wow, and I thought inflation didn't happen anymore.

[Malthus]

Conversation so far:

Poles did not collaborate with Germany.

Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.

Well, those were not real poles.

It is not so surprising when one remembers that, pre-WW2, the borders of Poland had moved around quite a bit - and indeed the "absorbtion" of millions of ethnic germans in the countries created or moved following WW1 was a major excuse for WW2. 

[Bluebook]

Conversation so far:

Poles did not collaborate with Germany.

Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.

Well, those were not real poles.

It was 82.000 in Ape's last post, and suddenly it's "hundreds of thousands"? Wow, and I thought inflation didn't happen anymore.

82 000 served in the SS, all those who registred as volkdeutche were subject to conscription into the german army.

[Bluebook]

Conversation so far:

Poles did not collaborate with Germany.

Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.

Well, those were not real poles.

It is not so surprising when one remembers that, pre-WW2, the borders of Poland had moved around quite a bit - and indeed the "absorbtion" of millions of ethnic germans in the countries created or moved following WW1 was a major excuse for WW2.

How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..

[Valmy]

Poles did not collaborate with Germany.

I suppose you might come to that conclusion is you were an illiterate idiot.  Remember kids saying Poland was not a major collaborator is equivalent to saying there was not a single Polish collaborator.

Uh, what about those tens of thousands who served in the SS, and the millions who saw themselves as germans rather than poles. Hundreds of thousands of which fought in the german army.

Made up numbers are fun.

Well, those were not real poles.

They self identified as such dude.

[Valmy]

How do you define a pole if not by nationality? Defining citizens based on ethnicity is soo 20th century..

When did World War II happen according to you?  1876 or 2005?

Oh and Poland, and the other eastern Euro states, were ethnically based states.  So yeah ethnicity plays a big role here.