http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/02/02/christie-breaks-with-obama-over-measles-vaccine-calls-for-balance/
QuoteNew Jersey Gov. Chris Christie on Monday walked back comments he made calling for "balance" on the measles vaccine debate, asserting that "there is no question kids should be vaccinated."
"The Governor believes vaccines are an important public health protection and with a disease like measles there is no question kids should be vaccinated," Christie's office said in a statement. "At the same time different states require different degrees of vaccination, which is why he was calling for balance in which ones government should mandate."
The Republican governor and potential presidential candidate caused a stir Monday when he broke with President Obama and said the government must "balance" public health interests with parental choice.
"Mary Pat and I have had our children vaccinated and we think that it's an important part of being sure we protect their health and the public health," Christie told reporters here Monday. But the likely Republican presidential candidate added: "I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well, so that's the balance that the government has to decide."
Christie's initial comments came after a laboratory tour at MedImmune, a biologics company that makes vaccines in Cambridge. Christie is on a three-day tour of Britain designed to promote trade with New Jersey businesses and round out his foreign policy resume ahead of a likely 2016 run for the White House.
Christie was asked to weigh in on the debate in the United States over the measles outbreak. On Sunday, Obama told NBC News anchor Savannah Guthrie, "You should get your kids vaccinated."
"I understand that there are families that, in some cases, are concerned about the effect of vaccinations," Obama said. "The science is, you know, pretty indisputable. We've looked at this again and again. There is every reason to get vaccinated, but there aren't reasons to not."
Christie, however, said "there has to be a balance and it depends on what the vaccine is, what the disease type is, and all the rest." He added, "Not every vaccine is created equal and not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others."
Christie also took the unusual step of criticizing the president on foreign soil, saying Obama had been a poor negotiator, specifically regarding the TransAtlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.
"You need an effective negotiator at the top, and, as I've said before, I think the president has shown over and over again that he's not the most effective negotiator, whether you're talking about the Iranian nuclear talks or whether you're talking about his recent foray into Cuba," Christie said. "The president has not proven himself to be the most adept negotiator, in my opinion, on behalf of American interests."
Later Monday, Christie was scheduled to be in London for a meeting with Prime Minister David Cameron at 10 Downing Street followed by a private dinner with members of Cameron's cabinet.
At the morning news conference, Christie was complimentary of Cameron, who is up for reelection this spring, and said some of the austerity measures he had taken in Britain were similar to ones Christie implemented in New Jersey. Christie and Cameron met in 2011, during Christie's first term as governor.
"We were comparing notes pretty feverishly back in 2011," Christie said. "So I hope that part of what we'll do today is compare notes on progress as well and I think that the prime minister has led some really great progress economically here, especially when you compare it to the rest of Europe."
While in Cambridge, Christie and his wife, Mary Pat, laid several wreaths at the Cambridge American Cemetery and Memorial, the burial site for several thousand U.S. servicemen in World War II. The couple kneeled at the nave of the cemetery's chapel for a moment of silent tribute to the fallen soldiers.
No-one should vote for him now :bleeding: :ultra:
Bad move Fat Boy.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 11:20:12 AM
No-one should vote for him now :bleeding: :ultra:
Given the amount of anti-science gibberish, especially surrounding vaccines, he might even gain votes.
Doesn't sound that bad to me.
Quote from: Gups on February 02, 2015, 11:47:32 AM
Doesn't sound that bad to me.
Quote"Not every vaccine is created equal and not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others."
No...that's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say, man.
QuoteTABLE 13–1.
Comparison of Twentieth Century Annual Morbidity* and Current Morbidity of Vaccine-Preventable Diseases of Children in the United States
DISEASE TWENTIETH CENTURY ANNUAL MORBIDITY 2000† PERCENTAGE DECREASE
Smallpox 48,164 0 100
Diphtheria 175,885 4 99.99
Measles 503,282 81 99.98
Mumps 152,209 323 99.80
Pertussis 147,271 6755 95.40
Polio (paralytic) 16,316 0 100
Rubella 47,745 152 99.70
Congenital rubella syndrome 823 7 99.10
Tetanus 1314 26 98.00
Haemophilus influenzae type b 20,000 167 99.10
________________________________
*Typical average during the 3 years before vaccine licensure.
†Provisional data
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/guides-pubs/downloads/vacc_mandates_chptr13.pdf
If you ever want to get an idea of how New Jersey residents view Chris Christie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDlLwEnMFhc
The sad thing is that so much of what that man does needs to be set to Yakety Sax.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 02, 2015, 12:35:53 PM
If you ever want to get an idea of how New Jersey residents view Chris Christie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDlLwEnMFhc
The sad thing is that so much of what that man does needs to be set to Yakety Sax.
:huh:
Quote from: garbon on February 02, 2015, 12:39:45 PM
:huh:
The moral of the story is it's impossible to take seriously somebody who always sets off a mental soundtrack of the
Benny Hill theme.
:hmm: I don't think you speak for all New Jersey people.
Maybe DSB meant himself and at least one other New Jersyite.
That chair is so "no fucking way" in that clip.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2015, 12:47:28 PM
Maybe DSB meant himself and at least one other New Jersyite.
:D
I guess once they're out of the womb, it's open season.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 02, 2015, 12:43:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 02, 2015, 12:39:45 PM
:huh:
The moral of the story is it's impossible to take seriously somebody who always sets off a mental soundtrack of the Benny Hill theme.
Because he fell and then someone looped the clip over and over?
The comment on the TTIP is also confusing. First how has Obama been ineffective as a negotiator? Second isn't the implication that Obama is letting the Yuros walk all over him - why would he make that point while in Europe?
Politician panders to ignorant cretins by embracing anti-scientific position. Film at 11.
Next thing we know, we will have a politician professing a belief in a deity.
Christie got unpopular in the GOP as soon as he started showing he could be reasonable.
Looky
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B83B5-1CUAAw-xi.jpg)
Yes, that's Chris Christie.
Where's the rest of him?
Apparently Christie has been courting anti-vaccine votes since at least 2009: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/chris-christie-expressed-concern-about-vaccine-autism-link-09
Ugh... just terrible :bleeding:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 02, 2015, 01:35:14 PM
The comment on the TTIP is also confusing. First how has Obama been ineffective as a negotiator? Second isn't the implication that Obama is letting the Yuros walk all over him - why would he make that point while in Europe?
Christie should read how Europeans see TTIP. The general notion here is that the Americans are walking all over us...
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 02, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
No...that's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say, man.
QuoteTABLE 13–1.
Comparison of Twentieth Century Annual Morbidity* and Current Morbidity of Vaccine-Preventable Diseases of Children in the United States
DISEASE TWENTIETH CENTURY ANNUAL MORBIDITY 2000† PERCENTAGE DECREASE
Smallpox 48,164 0 100
Diphtheria 175,885 4 99.99
Measles 503,282 81 99.98
Mumps 152,209 323 99.80
Pertussis 147,271 6755 95.40
Polio (paralytic) 16,316 0 100
Rubella 47,745 152 99.70
Congenital rubella syndrome 823 7 99.10
Tetanus 1314 26 98.00
Haemophilus influenzae type b 20,000 167 99.10
________________________________
*Typical average during the 3 years before vaccine licensure.
†Provisional data
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/guides-pubs/downloads/vacc_mandates_chptr13.pdf
Wow, if there was ever a successful policy it must be this. Which other policy has a 99+% success rate? You must be really stupid to be against this.
Quote from: Zanza on February 02, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
You must be really stupid to be against this.
there's a 100% correlation between people receiving the vaccine and dying later in their life. Scary ;)
Quote from: viper37 on February 02, 2015, 03:18:42 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 02, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
You must be really stupid to be against this.
there's a 100% correlation between people receiving the vaccine and dying later in their life. Scary ;)
There are millions alive that got the vaccine. For all we know, one of them could be the first immortal. :P
I wish people who refuse to vaccinate their children were summarily executed. Do you guys know any idiots like that personally?
Not that I know of.
I had one karaoke buddy, an ex-stripper who married a dot-head from the Iowa Writers' Workshop, who was arguing with her hubby in favor of not vaccinating. Don't know what they settled on. My guess is she gave in.
You should marry an Ex-Stripper.
I knew a couple back in the US that weren't "completely against" vaccinating their children but preferred to space out the injections a bit more so they "didn't overwhelm the kid's body". They didn't think it was critical to follow the regulated schedule because these illnesses, you know, aren't much of an issue nowadays. BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS VACCINATED AGAINST THEM YOU IDIOTS.
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2015, 03:28:58 PM
I wish people who refuse to vaccinate their children were summarily executed.
Don't know about that but I could be convinced that the DP should be applied to Andrew Wakefield.
Quote from: Zanza on February 02, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 02, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
No...that's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say, man.
QuoteTABLE 13–1.
[See original post]
Wow, if there was ever a successful policy it must be this. Which other policy has a 99+% success rate? You must be really stupid to be against this.
Much of the rationalization comes down to what one blogger referred to as the "Brady Bunch vaccine fallacy" (http://"http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/appeal-to-brady-bunch-vaccine-fallacy/"). Under that "logic" the measles wasn't that bad back when "everybody got it", so the vaccine really doesn't accomplish much but making money for the manufacturers, and any risk is not worth the reward.
BTW, the chart he pulled off Wikipedia shows how rapidly the vaccine had an effect. It is more impressive than just seeing two numbers as a line item.
Quote from: celedhring on February 02, 2015, 04:27:23 PM
I knew a couple back in the US that weren't "completely against" vaccinating their children but preferred to space out the injections a bit more so they "didn't overwhelm the kid's body". They didn't think it was critical to follow the regulated schedule because these illnesses, you know, aren't much of an issue nowadays. BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS VACCINATED AGAINST THEM YOU IDIOTS.
I also know a guy who married a groovy back to nature type who was opposed to all vaccinations because she observed that those illnesses don't affect people anymore.
:frusty:
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 02, 2015, 04:39:47 PM
I also know a guy who married a groovy back to nature type who was opposed to all vaccinations because she observed that those illnesses don't affect people anymore.
:frusty:
:lol:
That's like a line out of a Douglas Adams character.
Here's a piece with several links to articles highlighting the "herd mentality" of the anti-vaccine movement--
http://io9.com/the-herd-mentality-of-the-anti-vaxxer-movement-1626928779
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 02, 2015, 02:27:56 PM
Christie got unpopular in the GOP as soon as he started showing he could be reasonable.
Nobody in the south of the state would accuse this guy of being overly reasonable. Remember, the "other" New Jersey poster is basically a New Yorker that lives across the river.
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2015, 03:28:58 PM
I wish people who refuse to vaccinate their children were summarily executed. Do you guys know any idiots like that personally?
No. But once I have friends with children I know it'll happen. I already have a few friends who will head down this route. They're half way to Portland already :bleeding:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 02, 2015, 05:47:04 PM
Nobody in the south of the state would accuse this guy of being overly reasonable.
:hmm: Nobody at all? Not a single person?
Quote
Remember, the "other" New Jersey poster is basically a New Yorker that lives across the river.
:rolleyes: Yeah, you got me.
From my point of view, the "other" New Jersey poster is habitually talking about things he has no actual understanding of. I guess there is the first time for everything, and maybe this time he's writing something that isn't total horseshit, but given the presence of absolutist statements about a politician elected in a landslide, and the lack of realization of how utterly stupid those statements sound, I'm going to conclude that this moment has yet to arrive.
My uncle, who lives in south Jersey, also despises Christie. But he hates him for personal reasons... because Christie personally cut his salary. :D
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2015, 03:28:58 PM
I wish people who refuse to vaccinate their children were summarily executed. Do you guys know any idiots like that personally?
No. But once I have friends with children I know it'll happen. I already have a few friends who will head down this route. They're half way to Portland already :bleeding:
Actually, anti-vaccinism seems to be coming more from the LA "alternative medicine" celebrity-and-money crowd rather than the granola and birkenstocks crowd, or even the Jesus-rode-dinosaurs crowd. But it is spreading.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 02, 2015, 07:18:10 PM
Actually, anti-vaccinism seems to be coming more from the LA "alternative medicine" celebrity-and-money crowd rather than the granola and birkenstocks crowd, or even the Jesus-rode-dinosaurs crowd. But it is spreading.
It crops up in all sorts of places, unfortunately. We an outbreak in one of the satellite communities, and as I recall it it was a religious charter school type deal and the people were primarily some sort of Jesus fundamentalists.
I have a friend of a friend who had a hard time. She's more of a granola crowd and she - in the words of a mutual friend - "really struggled with vaccinations". Luckily she decided to have her kid get them because she's otherwise absolutely lovely, but I don't think I can associate with anti-vaccine people socially.
I guess Christie just got Meri's vote.
Yeah. I associate it with the knit your own granola people. I think the highest rate of non-vaccinations is in Oregon.
I find it really weird that it's kicking off at all in the US right now. We had it when Wakefield's 'research' came out. Now it's more or less only in the Daily Express, along with Diana conspiracies. But the non-vac crowd declined rapidly.
Quote from: Jacob on February 02, 2015, 07:23:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 02, 2015, 07:18:10 PM
Actually, anti-vaccinism seems to be coming more from the LA "alternative medicine" celebrity-and-money crowd rather than the granola and birkenstocks crowd, or even the Jesus-rode-dinosaurs crowd. But it is spreading.
It crops up in all sorts of places, unfortunately. We an outbreak in one of the satellite communities, and as I recall it it was a religious charter school type deal and the people were primarily some sort of Jesus fundamentalists.
I have a friend of a friend who had a hard time. She's more of a granola crowd and she - in the words of a mutual friend - "really struggled with vaccinations". Luckily she decided to have her kid get them because she's otherwise absolutely lovely, but I don't think I can associate with anti-vaccine people socially.
Yeah, the fundies and the granolas have always had a certain amount of goofy skepticism about it, but the Jenny McCarthys and the LA wealth set have really seemed to get it some traction the last few years.
Looks like
Rand Paul has decided to step up and catch the voters who were dissatisfied with Christie's back-pedalling: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/rand-paul-vaccines-voluntary
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/rand-paul-vaccines-mental-disorders
Quote"While I think it's a good idea to take the vaccine, I think that's a personal decision for individuals to take and when they take it," he said.
Quote"I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," Paul said.
...
CNBC host Kelly Evans asked Paul, a potential 2016 candidate, about his previous statement that vaccines "ought to be voluntary," and he seemed confused as to why his statement was controversial.
"Well I guess being for freedom would be really unusual," he responded. "I guess I don't understand the point that would be controversial."
... so it looks like it's going to spread to the right-libertarians now too. Great.
Rand has fantastic hair.
Civil war soon.
God I hope this doesn't become a thing for the GOP :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 09:15:12 PM
God I hope this doesn't become a thing for the GOP :bleeding:
THANKS OBAMA!
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 09:15:12 PM
God I hope this doesn't become a thing for the GOP :bleeding:
That would be a disaster.
Quote from: Zanza on February 02, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 02, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
No...that's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say, man.
QuoteTABLE 13–1.
Comparison of Twentieth Century Annual Morbidity* and Current Morbidity of Vaccine-Preventable Diseases of Children in the United States
DISEASE TWENTIETH CENTURY ANNUAL MORBIDITY 2000† PERCENTAGE DECREASE
Smallpox 48,164 0 100
Diphtheria 175,885 4 99.99
Measles 503,282 81 99.98
Mumps 152,209 323 99.80
Pertussis 147,271 6755 95.40
Polio (paralytic) 16,316 0 100
Rubella 47,745 152 99.70
Congenital rubella syndrome 823 7 99.10
Tetanus 1314 26 98.00
Haemophilus influenzae type b 20,000 167 99.10
________________________________
*Typical average during the 3 years before vaccine licensure.
†Provisional data
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/guides-pubs/downloads/vacc_mandates_chptr13.pdf
Wow, if there was ever a successful policy it must be this. Which other policy has a 99+% success rate? You must be really stupid to be against this.
:lmfao: Then the US and British health officials must be extremely stupid, as they do not, in fact, immunize against smallpox except for people going to specific overseas destinations.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 02, 2015, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 02, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 02, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
No...that's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say, man.
QuoteTABLE 13–1.
[See original post]
Wow, if there was ever a successful policy it must be this. Which other policy has a 99+% success rate? You must be really stupid to be against this.
Much of the rationalization comes down to what one blogger referred to as the "Brady Bunch vaccine fallacy" (http://"http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/appeal-to-brady-bunch-vaccine-fallacy/"). Under that "logic" the measles wasn't that bad back when "everybody got it", so the vaccine really doesn't accomplish much but making money for the manufacturers, and any risk is not worth the reward.
BTW, the chart he pulled off Wikipedia shows how rapidly the vaccine had an effect. It is more impressive than just seeing two numbers as a line item.
Yeah, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
I had some stitches put in at a hospital a while backand they gave me a triple-vaccine jab as a matter of course.
Which was useful as I'd been meaning to get around to a having a tetanus booster for like the twenty previous years. :rolleyes:
Quote from: grumbler on February 02, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Yeah, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
The bigger problem is that the death rate was so low. Thousands of deaths and cases of brain damage pales in comparison to hundreds of thousands sickened, so the vast majority of people who were alive pre-vaccination are much more likely to remember a complication-free period of sickness rather than one of the cases that led to brain damage or death.
For this latest outbreak, it is highly unlikely that any of the kids who contracted measles will die or suffer any lasting damage. Unfortunately, the militant anti-vaxxers will then look at it as a case of the government causing more problems than the disease.
Quote from: Jacob on February 02, 2015, 07:41:40 PM
Looks like Rand Paul has decided to step up and catch the voters who were dissatisfied with Christie's back-pedalling: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/rand-paul-vaccines-voluntary
Gee never would have guessed.
Probably trite to point out, but it seems like folks with autistic kids are just indulging in some magical thinking to place blame somewhere. It probably makes sense in their minds that "vaccines = autism," since autism generally manifests as a diagnosable condition after vaccination. But at least I can sort of understand where they're coming from--they're crybabies, certainly, but in genuine pain. How their contagion spread to people who aren't in a personal crisis is harder to comprehend.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 02, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 02, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Yeah, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
The bigger problem is that the death rate was so low. Thousands of deaths and cases of brain damage pales in comparison to hundreds of thousands sickened, so the vast majority of people who were alive pre-vaccination are much more likely to remember a complication-free period of sickness rather than one of the cases that led to brain damage or death.
I don't know. Half a million people were dying each year of measles in the US alone, and nobody noticed? Fatalities from automobile accidents were roughly 1/10th that in the late 60s/early 70s, and people definitely noticed.
Quote from: grumbler
:lmfao: Then the US and British health officials must be extremely stupid, as they do not, in fact, immunize against smallpox except for people going to specific overseas destinations.
They must not have gotten the WHO memo that smallpox has been eradicated worldwide thanks to vaccination campaigns then. Nobody had to be vaccinated against smallpox anymore for decades and smallpox is the poster child of all vaccination efforts. :secret:
Quote from: dps on February 02, 2015, 11:36:19 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 02, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 02, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Yeah, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
The bigger problem is that the death rate was so low. Thousands of deaths and cases of brain damage pales in comparison to hundreds of thousands sickened, so the vast majority of people who were alive pre-vaccination are much more likely to remember a complication-free period of sickness rather than one of the cases that led to brain damage or death.
I don't know. Half a million people were dying each year of measles in the US alone, and nobody noticed? Fatalities from automobile accidents were roughly 1/10th that in the late 60s/early 70s, and people definitely noticed.
Morbidity is not mortality.
The "being pure" concept is what's driving a lot of the anti-vaccine movement in North America. That's why I think you see so many, sometimes rational, Whole Foods shopping, organic eating, exclusively breastfeeding and co-sleeping parents not buying into vaccines. The diseases we vaccine for are far enough in the past for newer parents not to know the experience first hand and their natural purity mentality is strong enough to cause them to be stupid.
Seriously, I want to know why Christie is going in to Number 10 while Governor of NJ. It's not constitutional for states to conduct their own diplomacy.
I would be more interested why Cameron thinks it's a good idea to welcome him. Doesn't he have better things to do than meeting some provincial politician from another country?
Quote from: dps on February 02, 2015, 11:36:19 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 02, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 02, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Yeah, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
The bigger problem is that the death rate was so low. Thousands of deaths and cases of brain damage pales in comparison to hundreds of thousands sickened, so the vast majority of people who were alive pre-vaccination are much more likely to remember a complication-free period of sickness rather than one of the cases that led to brain damage or death.
I don't know. Half a million people were dying each year of measles in the US alone, and nobody noticed? Fatalities from automobile accidents were roughly 1/10th that in the late 60s/early 70s, and people definitely noticed.
In medicalese, we use the word
mortality when referring to death.
Morbidity just means symptoms/sequelae.
If you want to look at worldwide measles mortality though, you'll start seeing numbers like that. 2.3 million were estimated to die per year prior to 1980s when the MMR vaccine started to become more accessible to the third world. In 2013 there were 143k worldwide deaths from measles.
Quote from: Ideologue on February 02, 2015, 10:29:24 PM
Probably trite to point out, but it seems like folks with autistic kids are just indulging in some magical thinking to place blame somewhere. It probably makes sense in their minds that "vaccines = autism," since autism generally manifests as a diagnosable condition after vaccination. But at least I can sort of understand where they're coming from--they're crybabies, certainly, but in genuine pain. How their contagion spread to people who aren't in a personal crisis is harder to comprehend.
Yeah, I can sorta get that. You look for irrational answers when you're put in such a hard situation. Is the "pure lifers" that really get on my tits.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8shVT2CEAA3PdQ.jpg)
Quote from: DGuller on February 02, 2015, 06:03:21 PM
:rolleyes: Yeah, you got me.
Don't worry, nobody else thinks of you as a New Yorker.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 02, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 02, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Yeah, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
The bigger problem is that the death rate was so low. Thousands of deaths and cases of brain damage pales in comparison to hundreds of thousands sickened, so the vast majority of people who were alive pre-vaccination are much more likely to remember a complication-free period of sickness rather than one of the cases that led to brain damage or death.
Or, to put it more imply, measles was so common that no one paid any attention to the thousands of deaths it caused every year.
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2015, 12:08:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler
:lmfao: Then the US and British health officials must be extremely stupid, as they do not, in fact, immunize against smallpox except for people going to specific overseas destinations.
They must not have gotten the WHO memo that smallpox has been eradicated worldwide thanks to vaccination campaigns then. Nobody had to be vaccinated against smallpox anymore for decades and smallpox is the poster child of all vaccination efforts. :secret:
The argument Seedy made was against the statement that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others," claiming that a selected efficacy listing disproved the statement. I'd say his list proves nothing, and that smallpox is, indeed, "not as great a public health threat" as, say, influenza. If you want to dispute my argument, then feel free, but you cannot dispute my argument by stealing it.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2015, 01:53:51 AM
Seriously, I want to know why Christie is going in to Number 10 while Governor of NJ. It's not constitutional for states to conduct their own diplomacy.
AFAIK, every state has trade agencies and the like that try to drum up investment and such overseas, often working with foreign governments, not just private investors. Not sure those have ever been challenged on constitutional grounds.
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2015, 01:56:37 AM
I would be more interested why Cameron thinks it's a good idea to welcome him. Doesn't he have better things to do than meeting some provincial politician from another country?
Probably because he's a Presidential candidate from the Tories sort-of sister party, and probably the Republican Cameron would most support/get on with. I wonder if they met with Lynton Crosby Cameron's Australian election strategist. And PMs have met and welcomed Governors and Senators before.
Alternately Cameron's a closet Arsenal fan and they were watching Match of the Day together:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-apps%2Fimrs.php%3Fsrc%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fimg.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fpost-politics%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F02%2F20150201Arsenal110-e1422810711924.jpg%26amp%3Bw%3D1484&hash=71b58ca911b6c9361c9810f3f014fe95bc144761)
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2015, 07:33:51 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2015, 01:53:51 AM
Seriously, I want to know why Christie is going in to Number 10 while Governor of NJ. It's not constitutional for states to conduct their own diplomacy.
AFAIK, every state has trade agencies and the like that try to drum up investment and such overseas, often working with foreign governments, not just private investors. Not sure those have ever been challenged on constitutional grounds.
Yeah and Bloomberg and Schwarzenegger and others have come over here to make political speeches. In comparison Christie's visit is low-key.
We've had State governors coming to Spain, too. As Sheilbh says, those visits are usually part of trade/investment efforts. Obviously he's milking it with a view to running for POTUS, but it's not that out of the ordinary.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
The argument Seedy made was against the statement that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others," claiming that a selected efficacy listing disproved the statement. I'd say his list proves nothing, and that smallpox is, indeed, "not as great a public health threat" as, say, influenza. If you want to dispute my argument, then feel free, but you cannot dispute my argument by stealing it.
grumbler's still sore from his bubonic booster.
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2015, 07:33:51 AM
AFAIK, every state has trade agencies and the like that try to drum up investment and such overseas, often working with foreign governments, not just private investors. Not sure those have ever been challenged on constitutional grounds.
:yes: This is how Mark Sanford managed to get South Carolina to fund his trips to Latin America so he could take his mistress to pound town.
QuoteHillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 10h10 hours ago
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
:)
What's frustrating with Rand Paul taking up this banner is that the guy has a fucking M.D. He definitely has no excuse.
Not sure I understand the need to pander to fringe lunatics. Are there really that many people in MURICA who believe vaccines are bad? :ph34r:
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
What's frustrating with Rand Paul taking up this banner is that the guy has a fucking M.D. He definitely has no excuse.
Not sure I understand the need to pander to fringe lunatics. Are there really that many people in MURICA who believe vaccines are bad? :ph34r:
I think his view is ideological rather than rational. He has to be against government coercion even if it is the best thing for people's health.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 09:04:28 AM
QuoteHillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 10h10 hours ago
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
:)
:yeah:
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 09:04:28 AM
QuoteHillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 10h10 hours ago
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
:)
#whatdifferencedoesitmake
#hashtagsareforgays
#whatdiditellyouaboutangeringme
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2015, 11:02:16 AM
#whatdiditellyouaboutangeringme
#youreallywanttofuckwithmeboy?
:bleeding: It's not clever, it's just annoying.
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
I think his view is ideological rather than rational. He has to be against government coercion even if it is the best thing for people's health.
Yes, but in the article Jacob quoted from he seemed to be suggesting vaccines can screw kids up, too. He could have just stuck to his usual libertarian talking points, but for some reason he felt compelled to go there also.
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 10:56:45 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 09:04:28 AM
QuoteHillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 10h10 hours ago
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
:)
#whatdifferencedoesitmake
Vaccines? None at all.
One of my friends has managed to talk using hashtags. Every time she speaks, she finishes with a single uttering of words that somehow sum up the whole thing.
Sample from a phone call today (translated from Catalan):
Me: Hey, wanna meet for coffee today?
Her: I can't, I'm busy today. #Toomuchwork.
Me: What about tomorrow?
Her: I think I can make that, let me get back to you later. I'd love to see you. #Coffeewithfriends.
Reminds me of when all the kids were actually saying 'lol' instead of just laughing.
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2015, 11:10:56 AM
Reminds me of when all the kids were actually saying 'lol' instead of just laughing.
Good, the world is too serious a place for laughter. :mad:
O RLY?
One of the other sys admins here has 'BYENOOB' on his license plate. :bleeding:
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2015, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 10:56:45 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 09:04:28 AM
QuoteHillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 10h10 hours ago
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
:)
#whatdifferencedoesitmake
Vaccines? None at all.
They cause autism.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbatshitcrazynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F12%2FrryWmKDJnSIGGYCFeHSWsjl72eJkfbmt4t8yenImKBVvK0kTmF0xjctABnaLJIm9.jpeg&hash=9e6edca8092c43e15db54bdb7042388f59cc3f78)
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 11:41:59 AM
They cause autism.
I'm becoming convinced that the people who think vaccines cause autism are correct. It isn't the application of the vaccine, it's the mental stupidity involved in fearing vaccines that is causing the anti-vaccine crowd to become autistic.
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
What's frustrating with Rand Paul taking up this banner is that the guy has a fucking M.D. He definitely has no excuse.
Not sure I understand the need to pander to fringe lunatics. Are there really that many people in MURICA who believe vaccines are bad? :ph34r:
I think his view is ideological rather than rational. He has to be against government coercion even if it is the best thing for people's health.
I think this is where Christie was coming from, too, but it's a flawed premise. The state, no matter the size, has a greater interest in preventing public spaces from becoming viral incubators than parents have in opting out of medical treatments due to negligible proven side effects.
There are always gonna be exceptions- the pertussis vaccine gave me seizures, for example. But statistical outliers are no reason to scrap an effective public health program on the community level, let alone the state level (or the few instances of programs at the federal level).
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 11:41:59 AM
They cause autism.
Didn't take long for you to pick up the cause.
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2015, 11:08:47 AM
Yes, but in the article Jacob quoted from he seemed to be suggesting vaccines can screw kids up, too. He could have just stuck to his usual libertarian talking points, but for some reason he felt compelled to go there also.
:huh: Vaccines
can, and do, screw kids up. The issue of one of risk/reward, not "Cal is absolutely right and Rand is absolutely wrong." Rand, it turns out, is more right than you!
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 12:09:29 PM
That's what I'm here for ;)
As long as you're enjoying yourself :hug:
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 11:41:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2015, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 10:56:45 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 09:04:28 AM
QuoteHillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 10h10 hours ago
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
:)
#whatdifferencedoesitmake
Vaccines? None at all.
They cause autism.
Lack of them causes autism, too, so the autism issue is moot.
Are you seriously questioning Jenny McCarthy??
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 12:17:55 PM
Are you seriously questioning Jenny McCarthy??
Her name is 'Measles McGoo'.
Thank you.
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 12:17:55 PM
Are you seriously questioning Jenny McCarthy??
Does Jenny: Stand with Rand?
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 12:17:55 PM
Are you seriously questioning Jenny McCarthy??
Not those titties, no.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 03, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
Who cares. ;)
I prefer that my dick be at least harder than the girl's hair and breasts. :P
Quote from: PRC on February 03, 2015, 12:17:53 AM
The "being pure" concept is what's driving a lot of the anti-vaccine movement in North America. That's why I think you see so many, sometimes rational, Whole Foods shopping, organic eating, exclusively breastfeeding and co-sleeping parents not buying into vaccines. The diseases we vaccine for are far enough in the past for newer parents not to know the experience first hand and their natural purity mentality is strong enough to cause them to be stupid.
http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/01/what-everyone-gets-wrong-about-anti-vaccine-parents.html
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
:huh: Vaccines can, and do, screw kids up. The issue of one of risk/reward, not "Cal is absolutely right and Rand is absolutely wrong." Rand, it turns out, is more right than you!
They can and do?
What sort of adverse reactions are we talking about, and how frequent are they? How is this documented?
Meanwhile, Dr. Ben Carson - another potential GOP candidate - has weighed in:
Quote from: Dr. Ben Carson"Although I strongly believe in individual rights and the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit, I also recognize that public health and public safety are extremely important in our society," Carson told The Hill in a statement.
"Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them," he added.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/dr-ben-carson-weighs-in-on-the-vaccination-debate/
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
:huh: Vaccines can, and do, screw kids up. The issue of one of risk/reward, not "Cal is absolutely right and Rand is absolutely wrong." Rand, it turns out, is more right than you!
They can and do?
What sort of adverse reactions are we talking about, and how frequent are they? How is this documented?
https://vaers.hhs.gov/index
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/adverseeffects.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
They can and do?
What sort of adverse reactions are we talking about, and how frequent are they? How is this documented?
there is this outfit called "The Centers for Disease Prevention and Control" (run by the US government, so you may not trust it, but that's for you to decide) that notes, on their web page about vaccinations, that
QuoteHowever, as with any medical procedure, vaccination has some risks as well as substantial, proven benefits. Individuals react differently to vaccines, and there is no way to absolutely predict the reaction of a specific individual to a particular vaccine. Anyone who takes a vaccine should be fully informed about both the benefits and the risks of vaccination. Any questions or concerns should be discussed with a physician or other health care provider.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/ (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/)
So, yes, they can, and do.
As for what the potential adverse side effects are, a quick search using this service called "Google search" led me, again, to the CDC web site: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm) The potential side effects, and risk estimates, are listed there.
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
No real need to be a dick about, imo. :shrugs:
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 12:57:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
:huh: Vaccines can, and do, screw kids up. The issue of one of risk/reward, not "Cal is absolutely right and Rand is absolutely wrong." Rand, it turns out, is more right than you!
They can and do?
What sort of adverse reactions are we talking about, and how frequent are they? How is this documented?
https://vaers.hhs.gov/index (https://vaers.hhs.gov/index)
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/adverseeffects.pdf (http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/adverseeffects.pdf)
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/ (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/)
http://zombo.com/ (http://zombo.com/)
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 12:59:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
No real need to be a dick about, imo. :shrugs:
True. Except that its fun to be a dick about things when people go all faux-wide-eyed about a topic.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 12:59:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
No real need to be a dick about, imo. :shrugs:
It's easier to be a dick to someone over the net, rather than face to face.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
Why would I do that when it is such a pleasure to converse with you?
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
Why would I do that when it is such a pleasure to converse with you?
:pinch:
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
True. Except that its fun to be a dick about things when people go all faux-wide-eyed about a topic.
There was nothing faux about it. I haven't spent much time looking into and evaluating the potential negative effects of vaccines.
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
True. Except that its fun to be a dick about things when people go all faux-wide-eyed about a topic.
There was nothing faux about it. I haven't spent much time looking into and evaluating the potential negative effects of vaccines.
Basically any product put out by pharma/biotech runs the risk of screwing people up. -_-
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
If you can train yourself to follow the science instead of the hype, you can find these things out without me having to tell you.
Why would I do that when it is such a pleasure to converse with you?
Because it is more pleasant to converse with you when you are not pretending that you don't know how to Google, and that you have to ask your opponent to provide information that you should have more pride than to pretend ignorance of.
Discussions are pleasant when both sides present actual arguments and evidence, not faux ignorance and obstructive requests for the easily-found. I know that because I have had plenty of pleasurable discussions with you, and those were the characteristics of those pleasant discussions.
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
True. Except that its fun to be a dick about things when people go all faux-wide-eyed about a topic.
There was nothing faux about it. I haven't spent much time looking into and evaluating the potential negative effects of vaccines.
Really? You want us to believe that you don't know how to Google, and so had to ask me to do it for you?
Bullshit.
You are really in a nasty mood today.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:17:15 PM
Really? You want us to believe that you don't know how to Google, and so had to ask me to do it for you?
Bullshit.
:lol:
No, I was too lazy to go to google and wade through BS and genuine information and then read and digest the results and reach a conclusion on the subject.
Since you apparently had already spent the time to form a solid opinion based on perusing the relevant facts and reaching a well-reasoned conclusion, I was hoping you would be willing to offer a quick summary.
Alas, my hopes were cruelly dashed :cry:
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
The argument Seedy made was against the statement that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others," claiming that a selected efficacy listing disproved the statement. I'd say his list proves nothing, and that smallpox is, indeed, "not as great a public health threat" as, say, influenza. If you want to dispute my argument, then feel free, but you cannot dispute my argument by stealing it.
Not sure what your argument even is, but then based on your forum history, it's probably some kind of semantics point that I don't care about.
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2015, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
The argument Seedy made was against the statement that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others," claiming that a selected efficacy listing disproved the statement. I'd say his list proves nothing, and that smallpox is, indeed, "not as great a public health threat" as, say, influenza. If you want to dispute my argument, then feel free, but you cannot dispute my argument by stealing it.
Not sure what your argument even is, but then based on your forum history, it's probably some kind of semantics point that I don't care about.
I think it is about the fact that the statement is true that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others."
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:23:30 PM
No, I was too lazy to go to google and wade through BS and genuine information and then read and digest the results and reach a conclusion on the subject.
:huh: The CDC site is the first hit on Google. If you don't believe them, why would you believe me?
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2015, 01:24:59 PM
Not sure what your argument even is, but then based on your forum history, it's probably some kind of semantics point that I don't care about.
Based on your forum history, I doubt I have the skill to make it explicable to you. Go ahead and assume that
every argument of mine is "some kind of semantics point" that you don't care about, and ignore it. :)
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 01:26:28 PM
I think it is about the fact that the statement is true that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others."
Maybe. No idea how his answer to my comment would relate to that though as I didn't address that statement at all.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 01:26:28 PM
I think it is about the fact that the statement is true that "not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others."
correct. Not every disease is the same, nor is every immunization. That doesn't mean that societies shouldn't require immunizations, IMO, but we should know what we are doing when we require it (or support requiring it). The bullshit rhetoric on both sides doesn't contribute to the public health and safety debate.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:45:19 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2015, 01:24:59 PM
Not sure what your argument even is, but then based on your forum history, it's probably some kind of semantics point that I don't care about.
Based on your forum history, I doubt I have the skill to make it explicable to you. Go ahead and assume that every argument of mine is "some kind of semantics point" that you don't care about, and ignore it. :)
No, you are right. Not all your arguments are semantics points, but all your posts are something I don't care about. :)
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2015, 01:48:10 PM
No, you are right. Not all your arguments are semantics points, but all your posts are something I don't care about. :)
Irony isn't just "the opposite of wrinkly." :lol:
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
True. Except that its fun to be a dick about things when people go all faux-wide-eyed about a topic.
There was nothing faux about it. I haven't spent much time looking into and evaluating the potential negative effects of vaccines.
FACT: Children have been injured in automobile accidents on the way to vaccination appointments.
FACT: Children have been injured in automobile accidents on the way from vaccination appointments.
The numbers just don't lie, man.
Automobiles causes autism, CDC reports!
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
True. Except that its fun to be a dick about things when people go all faux-wide-eyed about a topic.
There was nothing faux about it. I haven't spent much time looking into and evaluating the potential negative effects of vaccines.
FACT: Children have been injured in automobile accidents on the way to vaccination appointments.
FACT: Children have been injured in automobile accidents on the way from vaccination appointments.
The numbers just don't lie, man.
That was a silly post.
This is a silly topic.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:00:36 PM
This is a silly topic.
Adverse events that can occur after receiving a vaccine? :unsure:
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 01:23:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 01:17:15 PM
Really? You want us to believe that you don't know how to Google, and so had to ask me to do it for you?
Bullshit.
:lol:
No, I was too lazy to go to google and wade through BS and genuine information and then read and digest the results and reach a conclusion on the subject.
Since you apparently had already spent the time to form a solid opinion based on perusing the relevant facts and reaching a well-reasoned conclusion, I was hoping you would be willing to offer a quick summary.
Alas, my hopes were cruelly dashed :cry:
Grumbler is a rare breed who takes pleasure in googling to make a claim about someone being wrong and then taking greater pleasure in complaining about it.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 09:15:12 PM
God I hope this doesn't become a thing for the GOP :bleeding:
Meh, a few years ago both Obama and Hillary were talking about the unknowns with the vaccine, before more studies were done showing the vaccine to be safe. Many people already had their minds made up that it was bad, caused autism, based on some earlier study, so that's what O and H were probably speaking about. Now studies are in that the vaccinations don't cause autism. But I guess this could be the new "War on....." theme against the GOP, because of course all GOPers believe as Rand and Christie do.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:01:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:00:36 PM
This is a silly topic.
Adverse events that can occur after receiving a vaccine? :unsure:
The unnecessary overblown hype and public health-threatening hysteria surrounding the low probability of
Quote from: KRonn on February 03, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 09:15:12 PM
God I hope this doesn't become a thing for the GOP :bleeding:
Meh, a few years ago both Obama and Hillary were talking about the unknowns with the vaccine, before more studies were done showing the vaccine to be safe. Many people already had their minds made up that it was bad, caused autism, based on some earlier study, so that's what O and H were probably speaking about. Now studies are in that the vaccinations don't cause autism. But I guess this could be the new "War on....." theme against the GOP, because of course all GOPers believe as Rand and Christie do.
:lol:
Yeah declaring open season on the GOP when worrying about if GOP will adopt views of two prominent GOP politicians.
The Obama and Hillary bit is a bit silly as what were they supposed to say to a questionnaire posed by anti-vaccinators? You all be stupid?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:07:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:01:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:00:36 PM
This is a silly topic.
Adverse events that can occur after receiving a vaccine? :unsure:
The unnecessary overblown hype and public health-threatening hysteria surrounding the low probability of
Well, I shouldn't speak for him - but I don't think g was saying that hysteria around that was a positive thing, just that it might be harmful to suggest that there is never anything bad that can happen after taking a vaccine. Such lies only feed into the hysteria.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: KRonn on February 03, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2015, 09:15:12 PM
God I hope this doesn't become a thing for the GOP :bleeding:
Meh, a few years ago both Obama and Hillary were talking about the unknowns with the vaccine, before more studies were done showing the vaccine to be safe. Many people already had their minds made up that it was bad, caused autism, based on some earlier study, so that's what O and H were probably speaking about. Now studies are in that the vaccinations don't cause autism. But I guess this could be the new "War on....." theme against the GOP, because of course all GOPers believe as Rand and Christie do.
:lol:
Yeah declaring open season on the GOP when worrying about if GOP will adopt views of two prominent GOP politicians.
The Obama and Hillary bit is a bit silly as what were they supposed to say to a questionnaire posed by anti-vaccinators? You all be stupid?
Seems that Obama and Hillary helped fuel the initial issue. But granted in their favor, maybe there wasn't enough information to show the vaccines safe back then, don't know.
Quote from: KRonn on February 03, 2015, 02:13:34 PM
Seems that Obama and Hillary helped fuel the initial issue.
How so? They weren't the only politicians asked questions about vaccines. I also find it hard, from what I quickly googled, to see them suggesting that vaccines posed a significant health risk or were linked to autism.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:10:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:07:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:01:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:00:36 PM
This is a silly topic.
Adverse events that can occur after receiving a vaccine? :unsure:
The unnecessary overblown hype and public health-threatening hysteria surrounding the low probability of
Well, I shouldn't speak for him - but I don't think g was saying that hysteria around that was a positive thing, just that it might be harmful to suggest that there is never anything bad that can happen after taking a vaccine. Such lies only feed into the hysteria.
Given that I have repeatably argued against allowing the bullshit rhetoric/hype to influence our decision-making, I am kinda surprised that you are the only person who seems to get it.
I think that an assessment of the harm caused by the vaccinations versus harm prevented by them favors the use of most vaccines, but not all. The smallpox vaccine, for instance, is contraindicated in all but a very few cases. Why? Because the individual's potential harm from receiving the vaccine, while low, is still higher than the potential benefit of receiving it. I have no idea why this idea is so difficult for languishites (including some who are generally pretty bright, when not engaged on topics they are so passionate about) to understand.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:10:12 PM
Well, I shouldn't speak for him - but I don't think g was saying that hysteria around that was a positive thing, just that it might be harmful to suggest that there is never anything bad that can happen after taking a vaccine. Such lies only feed into the hysteria.
Which is a fair point if that's what he was trying to say. You make it better, though :cheers:
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:25:34 PM
Given that I have repeatably argued against allowing the bullshit rhetoric/hype to influence our decision-making, I am kinda surprised that you are the only person who seems to get it.
I think that an assessment of the harm caused by the vaccinations versus harm prevented by them favors the use of most vaccines, but not all. The smallpox vaccine, for instance, is contraindicated in all but a very few cases. Why? Because the individual's potential harm from receiving the vaccine, while low, is still higher than the potential benefit of receiving it. I have no idea why this idea is so difficult for languishites (including some who are generally pretty bright, when not engaged on topics they are so passionate about) to understand.
Perhaps the issue is your communication style?
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: KRonn on February 03, 2015, 02:13:34 PM
Seems that Obama and Hillary helped fuel the initial issue.
How so? They weren't the only politicians asked questions about vaccines. I also find it hard, from what I quickly googled, to see them suggesting that vaccines posed a significant health risk or were linked to autism.
A few years ago they spoke about the fear with the vaccines that was building over fears of autism and were a bit sympathetic with parents as it was a huge fear not too long ago. But like I said, back then the newer studies may not have been out so your point is valid in that they were speaking about what the fear was with the vaccines. New studies have shown the fears to be unfounded but some parents still won't get the vaccines for their kids.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:10:12 PM
Well, I shouldn't speak for him - but I don't think g was saying that hysteria around that was a positive thing, just that it might be harmful to suggest that there is never anything bad that can happen after taking a vaccine. Such lies only feed into the hysteria.
OK, fine...there's a possibility that there can be a negative reaction; we know that, we have always known that. And now that that acknowledgement is out of the way, and those individuals that need to claim victory with their pucker-tight grip on semantics for semantics' sake have claimed it, can we please resume our established national policy of successful public health practices already in progress?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:34:37 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:10:12 PM
Well, I shouldn't speak for him - but I don't think g was saying that hysteria around that was a positive thing, just that it might be harmful to suggest that there is never anything bad that can happen after taking a vaccine. Such lies only feed into the hysteria.
OK, fine...there's a possibility that there can be a negative reaction; we know that, we have always known that. And now that that acknowledgement is out of the way, and those individuals that need to claim victory with their pucker-tight grip on semantics for semantics' sake have claimed it, can we please resume our established national policy of successful public health practices already in progress?
I don't know. I think Jacob would stand out as someone who didn't seem to be aware of that but was following along the lines of "vaccines are always good."
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:25:34 PM
Given that I have repeatably argued against allowing the bullshit rhetoric/hype to influence our decision-making, I am kinda surprised that you are the only person who seems to get it.
I think that an assessment of the harm caused by the vaccinations versus harm prevented by them favors the use of most vaccines, but not all. The smallpox vaccine, for instance, is contraindicated in all but a very few cases. Why? Because the individual's potential harm from receiving the vaccine, while low, is still higher than the potential benefit of receiving it. I have no idea why this idea is so difficult for languishites (including some who are generally pretty bright, when not engaged on topics they are so passionate about) to understand.
Perhaps the issue is your communication style?
It does seem to over-estimate the audience here. Maybe I have a hard time transitioning from discussing issues with high school sophomores and then stepping things down so that Languishites can get those points as well. :shrug: I can live with it.
Yes, perhaps the fact that you have no ex-cathedra authority here is hampering your style?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:34:37 PM
OK, fine...there's a possibility that there can be a negative reaction; we know that, we have always known that. And now that that acknowledgement is out of the way, and those individuals that need to claim victory with their pucker-tight grip on semantics for semantics' sake have claimed it, can we please resume our established national policy of successful public health practices already in progress?
I wanna preserve this one for the Sore Loser Hall of Fame! :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2015, 02:43:07 PM
Yes, perhaps the fact that you have no ex-cathedra authority here is hampering your style?
I doubt it. I don't have ex-cathedra authority anywhere, so here is no different.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Perhaps the issue is your communication style?
It does seem to over-estimate the audience here. Maybe I have a hard time transitioning from discussing issues with high school sophomores and then stepping things down so that Languishites can get those points as well. :shrug: I can live with it.
You're one of the forum superbosses. Once a poster has managed to unlock Garbon the Cunt and Hurricane Berkut, they get to you. Gotta press SAVE before entering a grumbler thread.
I'm the forum's gelatinous cube.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Perhaps the issue is your communication style?
It does seem to over-estimate the audience here. Maybe I have a hard time transitioning from discussing issues with high school sophomores and then stepping things down so that Languishites can get those points as well. :shrug: I can live with it.
You're one of the forum superbosses. Once a poster has managed to unlock Garbon the Cunt and Hurricane Berkut, they get to you. Gotta press SAVE before entering a grumbler thread.
:lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Perhaps the issue is your communication style?
It does seem to over-estimate the audience here. Maybe I have a hard time transitioning from discussing issues with high school sophomores and then stepping things down so that Languishites can get those points as well. :shrug: I can live with it.
You're one of the forum superbosses. Once a poster has managed to unlock Garbon the Cunt and Hurricane Berkut, they get to you. Gotta press SAVE before entering a grumbler thread.
I'm sorry but I think CC is ahead me on membership to the troika.
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:51:13 PM
I'm sorry but I think CC is ahead me on membership to the troika.
CC is not a superboss.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2015, 02:51:13 PM
I'm sorry but I think CC is ahead me on membership to the troika.
CC is not a superboss.
And I'm the nicest member of my immediate family.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2015, 02:48:59 PM
I'm the forum's gelatinous cube.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fangryflower.com%2Feveryb.gif&hash=45834ee34652f99bc312ca80b7aad2834e2f18c3)
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:43:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:34:37 PM
OK, fine...there's a possibility that there can be a negative reaction; we know that, we have always known that. And now that that acknowledgement is out of the way, and those individuals that need to claim victory with their pucker-tight grip on semantics for semantics' sake have claimed it, can we please resume our established national policy of successful public health practices already in progress?
I wanna preserve this one for the Sore Loser Hall of Fame! :lol:
The scientists and researchers over at HHS must be comforted by the fact that, of the 1-in-600,000 chance of an allergic reaction to a vaccine, somebody's got a vice-like grip on that 1 event and goddammit, he's not letting go of it for shit.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:25:34 PM
I have no idea why this idea is so difficult for languishites (including some who are generally pretty bright, when not engaged on topics they are so passionate about) to understand.
Could be your method of communicating is making people defensive rather than appreciative of the probably very good points you're making. Just a thought. :hmm:
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2015, 02:48:59 PM
I'm the forum's gelatinous cube.
LOL can I be the: Terrasque
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:43:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2015, 02:43:07 PM
Yes, perhaps the fact that you have no ex-cathedra authority here is hampering your style?
I doubt it. I don't have ex-cathedra authority anywhere, so here is no different.
Well except from the school.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Perhaps the issue is your communication style?
It does seem to over-estimate the audience here. Maybe I have a hard time transitioning from discussing issues with high school sophomores and then stepping things down so that Languishites can get those points as well. :shrug: I can live with it.
You're one of the forum superbosses. Once a poster has managed to unlock Garbon the Cunt and Hurricane Berkut, they get to you. Gotta press SAVE before entering a grumbler thread.
:lol: Thank you for being one of the posters who makes this place fun. :thumbsup:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 03:12:04 PM
The scientists and researchers over at HHS must be comforted by the fact that, of the 1-in-600,000 chance of an allergic reaction to a vaccine, somebody's got a vice-like grip on that 1 event and goddammit, he's not letting go of it for shit.
Oh! Look! It's a made-up number on languish! It's been 0.62 posts since the last spotting.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 03:25:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 03:12:04 PM
The scientists and researchers over at HHS must be comforted by the fact that, of the 1-in-600,000 chance of an allergic reaction to a vaccine, somebody's got a vice-like grip on that 1 event and goddammit, he's not letting go of it for shit.
Oh! Look! It's a made-up number on languish! It's been 0.62 posts since the last spotting.
That may be, but one is the loneliest number that you'll ever do.
Now Rand Paul claims that he wasn't alleging causation between vaccines and profound mental disorders, he was just alleging temporal correlation. He just added a non sequitur for the heck of it, I guess. :hmm: Is that the best story he could come up with?
Well it's better then Santorum saying ""I don't want to make Blah people's lives better by giving them somebody else's money." I fully accept that it's possible that Rand Paul is completly insane and that he adds non sequitus to end of his sentences.
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 12:49:23 PM
Meanwhile, Dr. Ben Carson - another potential GOP candidate - has weighed in:
Quote from: Dr. Ben Carson“Although I strongly believe in individual rights and the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit, I also recognize that public health and public safety are extremely important in our society,” Carson told The Hill in a statement.
“Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them,” he added.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/dr-ben-carson-weighs-in-on-the-vaccination-debate/
See, that's a reasonable position.
Now that I've switched my party affiliation to Republican, I have no idea who I'm going to support in the primaries in 2016, but this guy's stock just went up a bit in my eyes, and Christie's and Paul's has gone down (not that Rand Paul, in particular, ever had much chance of getting my vote in the primary).
Quote from: KRonn on February 03, 2015, 02:29:35 PM
A few years ago they spoke about the fear with the vaccines that was building over fears of autism and were a bit sympathetic with parents as it was a huge fear not too long ago. But like I said, back then the newer studies may not have been out so your point is valid in that they were speaking about what the fear was with the vaccines. New studies have shown the fears to be unfounded but some parents still won't get the vaccines for their kids.
Yeah but the quote from Obama about people's concerns and sympathy followed on to this line 'I am not for selective vaccination, I believe that it will bring back deadly diseases, like polio.' And the anti-vac people weren't terribly keen on it:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/09/obama-i-am-not.html
What I mean about worrying if this becomes a thing for the GOP isn't that it'll be 'war on x' but that it'll get consumed into general culture war insanity. So far, to the extent it's political, the anti-vaccination hotspots are LA, Portland and Vermont. If it gets put into a narrative with liberals and scientists on one side that may change.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 06:59:43 PM
the anti-vaccination hotspots are LA, Portland and Vermont
Democratic bastions. :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 06:59:43 PM
the anti-vaccination hotspots are LA, Portland and Vermont
Democratic bastions. :hmm:
Well, Republicans can't monopolize every single astonishingly stupid position.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
Democratic bastions. :hmm:
Indeed. This is the knit your own granola and alternative medicine crowd who are always a curse, but a containable one, but that could change if there's any perception of this being politicised :bleeding:
They are also more libertarian.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
Indeed. This is the knit your own granola and alternative medicine crowd who are always a curse, but a containable one, but that could change if there's any perception of this being politicised :bleeding:
On a vaguely related note, had you read that some Yuro countries have started planting GM crops?
I hadn't. We've had a few experimental fields in the UK for a while. Is it on a larger scale?
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 07:12:09 PM
I hadn't. We've had a few experimental fields in the UK for a while. Is it on a larger scale?
It was one of those little news bulletin things in the front of The Economist, and I didn't pay close attention to the particulars, but it seemed to be more than research. I think each country can choose for itself, and the item mentioned Spain as having gone ahead.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 06:59:43 PM
the anti-vaccination hotspots are LA, Portland and Vermont
Democratic bastions. :hmm:
Yeah, Texas is a true Democratic bastion as well.
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942/texas-megachurch-at-center-of-measles-outbreak
QuotePearsons set up vaccination clinics on church property, but at the same time, when she preaches to her congregates, the message is for them to put their faith in God.
"So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.:bleeding:
In a 2010 broadcast, Copeland expressed shock at the number of vaccines recommended for his grandchild.
"You don't take the word of the guy that's trying to give the shot about what's good and what isn't," he said.:bleeding:
Tards at night, big and bright.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 07:37:42 PM
Yeah, Texas is a true Democratic bastion as well.
There are tons of Dems in Texas. It's just that the ones running the state party are terrible. It's a disorganized mess that too often results in goofy kooks getting nominations.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 07:37:42 PM
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942/texas-megachurch-at-center-of-measles-outbreak
QuotePearsons set up vaccination clinics on church property, but at the same time, when she preaches to her congregates, the message is for them to put their faith in God.
"So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.:bleeding:
In a 2010 broadcast, Copeland expressed shock at the number of vaccines recommended for his grandchild.
"You don't take the word of the guy that's trying to give the shot about what's good and what isn't," he said.:bleeding:
Tards at night, big and bright.
"The truth always overcomes facts." I gotta remember that one. Prime grade-A gibberish.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2015, 07:54:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 07:37:42 PM
Yeah, Texas is a true Democratic bastion as well.
There are tons of Dems in Texas. It's just that the ones running the state party are terrible. It's a disorganized mess that too often results in goofy kooks getting nominations.
I think when it comes to this particular issue, for every fruitcake hipster in Portlandia there's a Biblethumper listening to God in Texas. The anti-vaccine crowd comes from all points on the compass.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 08:19:01 PM
I think when it comes to this particular issue, for every fruitcake hipster in Portlandia there's a Biblethumper listening to God in Texas. The anti-vaccine crowd comes from all points on the compass.
Yeah, like I said the local outbreaks due to lack of vaccinations have been amongst conservative bible thumper types rather than granola purity hippie types.
Perhaps because the bible groupings are more organized and tend to cluster more?
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 08:21:44 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 08:19:01 PM
I think when it comes to this particular issue, for every fruitcake hipster in Portlandia there's a Biblethumper listening to God in Texas. The anti-vaccine crowd comes from all points on the compass.
Yeah, like I said the local outbreaks due to lack of vaccinations have been amongst conservative bible thumper types rather than granola purity hippie types.
Perhaps because the bible groupings are more organized and tend to cluster more?
In California?
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 08:21:44 PM
Yeah, like I said the local outbreaks due to lack of vaccinations have been amongst conservative bible thumper types rather than granola purity hippie types.
Perhaps because the bible groupings are more organized and tend to cluster more?
Maybe.
I've largely been going off this map:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motherjones.com%2Ffiles%2Fvaccine_rateBystate-UPD-01.png&hash=0d06c0f0eb2b2e6766ac48eda42426fef42a09cd)
Though the story has examples of, say, a local megachurch going against it:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/vaccine-exemptions-states-pertussis-map
Mississippi and West Virginia have no data because they require no exemption reason at all, whether religious or philosophical.
Fucking Michigan. No wonder I always feel sick.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 08:37:47 PM
Mississippi and West Virginia have no data because they require no exemption reason at all, whether religious or philosophical.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 08:37:47 PM
Mississippi and West Virginia have no data because they require no exemption reason at all, whether religious or philosophical.
You've got that backwards; it's not that Mississippi and WV
require no exemption reason, it's that they
allow no non-medical exemptions.
Yeah, this is apparently one issue where Mississippi and WV are leading the pack. Good for them.
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
:huh: Vaccines can, and do, screw kids up. The issue of one of risk/reward, not "Cal is absolutely right and Rand is absolutely wrong." Rand, it turns out, is more right than you!
They can and do?
What sort of adverse reactions are we talking about, and how frequent are they? How is this documented?
At the risk of sounding a bit hypochondriac, the pertussis vaccine nearly killed me, thanks to a violent allergic reaction. Days-long fever well over 100 to the point where I was having seizures. I can't speak to how frequently it happened, but I can attest personally that they do happen and are documented (the pertussis portion was soon dropped from the DTP vaccine, making it the DT vaccine, until it was reformulated to cause less allergic responses).
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 08:29:29 PM
Maybe.
I've largely been going off this map:
Oregon isn't just Portlandia hipsters; there's a lot of backcountry.
That map doesn't tell you much absent a finer breakdown.
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2015, 08:28:17 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 03, 2015, 08:21:44 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2015, 08:19:01 PM
I think when it comes to this particular issue, for every fruitcake hipster in Portlandia there's a Biblethumper listening to God in Texas. The anti-vaccine crowd comes from all points on the compass.
Yeah, like I said the local outbreaks due to lack of vaccinations have been amongst conservative bible thumper types rather than granola purity hippie types.
Perhaps because the bible groupings are more organized and tend to cluster more?
In California?
I seem to recall Reagan doing quite well there. Also it's the Land of Darrell Issa.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 04, 2015, 01:33:22 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 08:29:29 PM
Maybe.
I've largely been going off this map:
Oregon isn't just Portlandia hipsters; there's a lot of backcountry.
That map doesn't tell you much absent a finer breakdown.
Yep. Here is the breakdown of the Nov 2014 Oregon Governor elections (though almost every election is close to this):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgick.oregonlive.com%2Fhome%2Folive-media%2Fwidth620%2Fimg%2Fmapes%2Fphoto%2Fgovenorsracepng-1257c87c290589b1.png&hash=d782bb587b2b80c5665347795e231db0c8f5b857)
The 2 counties on the coast are a bit surprising. The other 2 blue counties in the south are college towns; the smaller one is Benton County-Oregon State University and the larger is Linn County - University of Oregon. If not for the Universities in those towns those counties would be red as well.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 04, 2015, 01:33:22 AM
Oregon isn't just Portlandia hipsters; there's a lot of backcountry.
That map doesn't tell you much absent a finer breakdown.
Sure but 85% of Portland kindergartens have at least non-medical exemptions. The schools with the highest rates of non-medical exemptions (over a third) are predominately in Eugene or Portland.
I've not seen anything to suggest this is primarily a backcountry or a fundie issue (except for the odd megachurch that preaches against vaccines) as opposed to one predominately among the bobos. That could change, of course.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2015, 08:46:59 AM
as opposed to one predominately among the bobos.
Get your Euro terms out of our country. :angry:
It's an American term, no?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bobos-Paradise-Upper-Class-There/dp/0684853787
It does look like it was coined by an American but I've only ever heard it used by Euros. -_-
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2015, 09:35:51 AM
It does look like it was coined by an American but I've only ever heard it used by Euros. -_-
First time I heard it was from Capetan Mihali IIRC.
Our admittedly poor search function revealed Duque as the poster who most frequently uses the term.
Quote from: Jacob on February 04, 2015, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2015, 09:35:51 AM
It does look like it was coined by an American but I've only ever heard it used by Euros. -_-
First time I heard it was from Capetan Mihali IIRC.
Expressing my irritation/curiosity with Duque's compulsive, almost pathological, use of the term (which was infecting Syt's posting to a lesser extent), IIRC. :D Also because I can't stand David Brooks. That's one bit of esoterica I do not want to take credit for introducing to the world.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.dailykos.com%2Fimages%2F127471%2Flarge%2FAnti-Vaxx_BlanketsKos.Color.jpg&hash=03b94a30f5251a35fe0fab08d6a5416b972db4ae)
I don't want to get labeled "anti-science", but I don't think vaccines help against haunted fabric.