Its not just about going blind anymore.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/porn-induced-erectile-dysfunction-and-other-problems-facing-gen-xxx/article21675828/
QuoteWhen Gabe Deem was eight years old growing up in small-town Texas, he found a copy of a Playboy magazine and decided naked ladies were the best thing ever. Then, when he was 12, his family got high-speed Internet. Suddenly the naked ladies he craved weren't just intermittently available, they were infinite and on tap. And they were doing stuff he'd never even imagined. It was like he'd gone looking for his first sip of beer and found an unlimited stash of Jack Daniels and unfiltered Export A's.
Deem had hit the pornographic jackpot. All through his teens and into young adulthood, he, like most of his peers, looked at free hardcore porn whenever he felt the urge, which was pretty much every waking moment. They traded tips on the best free sites and how to hide their Web-surfing habits from their parents. Typical of his age, he masturbated. A lot.
But unlike most teenage boys before him, when the time came to have real sex with real girls, he found it difficult to perform. Deem knew his penis wasn't broken because it worked 24/7 with porn, but arousal without a screen was increasingly difficult to come by. By the time Deem was 23 and in a relationship with a girl he loved, he knew he had a porn problem. "Ultimately it desensitized me and rewired my brain to my computer screen to the point where, in real life, I couldn't feel anything in an intimate situation," he said in an interview. "My generation was told growing up that porn was cool because it was 'sex positive.' But what can be more 'sex negative' than being unable to perform in bed?"
He Googled his symptoms and found a name for the condition: Porn-induced erectile dysfunction. He decided to get help.
Today Deem is a youth counsellor who this week addressed the Generation XXX symposium in Winnipeg, a day-long public conference on the "pornification of our children" organized by the children's rights advocacy group Beyond Borders. His organization, Reboot Nation, encourages teens to counteract the effects of porn addiction by "rebooting" – taking a break from porn to allow their neural pathways to become sensitized to real sex again.
The Winnipeg symposium, which organizer Rosalind Prober calls a "call to action" for all Canadians concerned about effects of hardcore porn exposure on children, came about after the literacy group Media Smarts released a study earlier this year that found 90 per cent of Canadians between the ages of eight and 16 have viewed porn online, usually while doing their homework. According to the study, 40 per cent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 seek it out regularly (the number is only seven per cent for girls). The study, which was released last spring, shows a seven-per-cent increase in the overall number of teens looking at porn from the year before, as well as a rise in frequency, particularly among teenage boys.
None of this is particularly surprising: We live in a country in which there are strict standards for what is broadcast on television and in movie theatres, yet Internet service providers currently bear zero responsibility for making hardcore porn freely available to any kid with a WiFi connection.
As Prober points out, the generation that came of age in the past decade is "the world's greatest social experiment" in terms of what unlimited access to pornography can do to the young brain. "Porn is fake and adults have the critical faculties to discern that," she explained to me. "But it's very damaging for children to encounter misogynistic and often violent images as their first experience of sex."
Not just damaging socially, but physiologically, too. Porn-induced erectile dysfunction is now well documented by the mainstream medical community. Dr. Oz devoted a show to the topic last year, and just a few months ago, researchers at Cambridge University found that porn addicts' brains have similar responses to pleasure cues as the brains of alcoholics or drug addicts.
Teens being exposed to porn is nothing new (in my day there were Hustler centrefolds lurking in many high-school lockers) but it's the level of exposure and the nature of the content that's changed. While my generation learned to do sex by reading the dirty bits of Sweet Valley High novels and fumbling around sweatily in our parent's basements, this generation will have learned to do sex by watching semi-violent six-ways involving hairy men and vajazzled strippers squealing on dirty linoleum floors.
Prober argues that the effect of online porn and children has actually become a public health issue. Taken in large doses, it affects the neuroplasticity and pleasure centres of the adolescent brain, to say nothing of the damaging messages it disseminates on gender roles, consent and intimacy – tricky and important topics for fertile young minds.
Big as the problem is, the solution is surprisingly simple: The Internet is public space and we need to police it. We built it. We own it. It's where we live and where our kids are growing up. We should be applying the same standards of decency to the Internet as we do anywhere else. When you think about it, this way it seems staggeringly obvious that the current Wild West model cannot and should not last.
In the U.K., Prime Minister David Cameron recently strong-armed the major Internet service providers into applying automatic porn filters to all mobile and broadband connections in the country. This means that people over 18 can choose to opt in or out of porn, and if they ignore the question, they will be automatically opted out. If children attempt to override these filters, they will be subject to identity verification to check that they are of age. The service providers resisted heavily at first, claiming such controls were a matter of parental responsibility and tantamount to censorship, but after the government made it clear it would legislate if necessary, the ISPs relented. Unsurprisingly, the move has proved hugely popular, particularly among parents.
But here in Canada, we are way behind. Currently the big ISPs – Bell, Telus, Rogers and Shaw – are doing worse than nothing. They are actively resisting requests by advocacy groups such as Beyond Borders to introduce universal "opt-out" filters for users. Why are they resisting? Because it's expensive and a hassle and because telecommunications giants are in the business of making money, not concerning themselves with the public good. Unlike David Cameron, Stephen Harper isn't demanding they change, so why should they bother?
So if you want to protect your public online space, contact your local MP. And if that doesn't work, hold Harper to account in 2015. It's our Internet. Let's take it back.
Quote
90 per cent of Canadians between the ages of eight and 16 have viewed porn online, usually while doing their homework.
Ban homework!
QuoteWhen Gabe Deem was eight years old growing up in small-town Texas, he found a copy of a Playboy magazine and decided naked ladies were the best thing ever.
Best opening sentence for an article I've seen in a long time.
CC how have you dealt with this with your boys? Don't ask, don't tell? Some sort of serious talk?
If that was true, I'd be impotent.
Yeah, with three boys I'm not sure how to handle the whole internet. Obviously it's not anything I ever had to deal with when growing up. And it's not that I'm such a prude that I don't want the boys ever seeing a nekkid lady - but rather exposure to hard core porn really does affect how you view sex.
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 03:05:35 PM
- but rather exposure to hard core porn really does affect how you view sex.
I courteously disagree.
If I had access to the internet in my teenage years my dick would pretty much be broken. That said, I don't think kids today understand what it was like back in the old days, to stay up late on Friday nights just because the ethnic channels would show Italian movies that on occasion showed boob. I think ready access to fisting and double penetration at the age of 13 kind of removes the mystery of the whole thing.
anyways, BB, I'd like to hear in 7-8 years how you're handling the whole thing. You may find boxes of kleenex going missing a lot.
Well I might as well just say what we are all thinking: Stove-top giraffe undulating oubliette. Good so now that's out in the open, discuss.
Quote from: Martinus on November 21, 2014, 03:02:43 PM
If that was true, I'd be impotent.
Well you are posting on Languish. :P
Fact: Martinus did not say it was not true.
QuoteAccording to the study, 40 per cent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 seek it out regularly
What they don't say about this survey is that 60 percent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 are lying little bastards.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 02:59:40 PM
CC how have you dealt with this with your boys? Don't ask, don't tell? Some sort of serious talk?
It is something I dealt with directly. I did not want them thinking that porn is normative. The problem is I think that a lot of people are beginning to think it is.
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 03:05:35 PM
Yeah, with three boys I'm not sure how to handle the whole internet. Obviously it's not anything I ever had to deal with when growing up. And it's not that I'm such a prude that I don't want the boys ever seeing a nekkid lady - but rather exposure to hard core porn really does affect how you view sex.
My view is it is important for them to understand that wanting to see pictures/vidoes of naked women is perfectly normal and where not to cross the line to the stuff that is harmful. Where that line is located is the big parenting issue and something we talk about in terms of respect for their partners etc. I suppose at the end of the day the one message I really drum into them is the respect issue.
Can't have our boys taking a shit on their junior high prom dates.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 04:48:15 PM
Can't have our boys taking a shit on their junior high prom dates.
And that is a good example of why porn is so destructive. Why would any sane person say such a thing?
Quote from: garbon on November 21, 2014, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2014, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 03:05:35 PM
- but rather exposure to hard core porn really does affect how you view sex.
I courteously disagree.
Same.
I don't think there's any room for disagreement, to be honest. I think it's pretty well studied.
Porn has deeply shaped how kids today view sex. Several activities that seem to be now-commonplace - oral and anal sex, shaving pubic hair, were not seen in nearly the same numbers as you do nowadays.
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 04:51:24 PM
Several activities that seem to be now-commonplace - oral and anal sex, shaving pubic hair, were not seen in nearly the same numbers as you do nowadays.
Oh no!
Studies and surveys over here show that teenagers understand that porn is a fantasy, and that reality is quite different.
From what I understand from friends and family with kids is that teens will find a way to view porn if they want to (and have for generations, in pre-internet times, too). It comes down to educating them about the difference between what they may find online, and what happens in real life, and that generally speaking things are ok, if the persons involved want it and enjoy it.
I guess an additional topic these days would be warnings about what kind of images they share among themselves and of themselves, and that there's always a risk of "problematic" images becoming widely shared, even against their wishes - celebrity nudie leaks should illustrate that nicely, or any other story online where someone's life took a sharp turn because their private images got circulated in class or among friends.
Quote from: Syt on November 21, 2014, 04:56:10 PM
Studies and surveys over here show that teenagers understand that porn is a fantasy, and that reality is quite different.
From what I understand from friends and family with kids is that teens will find a way to view porn if they want to (and have for generations, in pre-internet times, too). It comes down to educating them about the difference between what they may find online, and what happens in real life, and that generally speaking things are ok, if the persons involved want it and enjoy it.
I guess an additional topic these days would be warnings about what kind of images they share among themselves and of themselves, and that there's always a risk of "problematic" images becoming widely shared, even against their wishes - celebrity nudie leaks should illustrate that nicely, or any other story online where someone's life took a sharp turn because their private images got circulated in class or among friends.
Yep, agree with everything you said.
Those are not very scary examples you gave BB :hmm:
I'm all for consensual off-piste sexual entertainment; but there is that big problem/fear that lads might normalise misogyny if online porn is their main information at a tender age, that is the main worry I would argue.
Newsflash: humanity will manage.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 21, 2014, 05:01:47 PM
Those are not very scary examples you gave BB :hmm:
I'm all for consensual off-piste sexual entertainment; but there is that big problem/fear that lads might normalise misogyny if online porn is their main information at a tender age, that is the main worry I would argue.
Well, I didn't say the internet was scary and horrible. It's just very very powerful.
Quote from: Martinus on November 21, 2014, 05:06:41 PM
Newsflash: humanity will manage.
Humanity can go hang - I just want to make sure I do the best I can for my boys.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 04:47:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 03:05:35 PM
Yeah, with three boys I'm not sure how to handle the whole internet. Obviously it's not anything I ever had to deal with when growing up. And it's not that I'm such a prude that I don't want the boys ever seeing a nekkid lady - but rather exposure to hard core porn really does affect how you view sex.
My view is it is important for them to understand that wanting to see pictures/vidoes of naked women is perfectly normal and where not to cross the line to the stuff that is harmful. Where that line is located is the big parenting issue and something we talk about in terms of respect for their partners etc. I suppose at the end of the day the one message I really drum into them is the respect issue.
I never wanted to see pictures/videos of naked women. :huh:
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 21, 2014, 05:06:41 PM
Newsflash: humanity will manage.
Humanity can go hang - I just want to make sure I do the best I can for my boys.
Which is why parents should not have voting rights.
Quote from: Martinus on November 21, 2014, 05:07:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 04:47:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 03:05:35 PM
Yeah, with three boys I'm not sure how to handle the whole internet. Obviously it's not anything I ever had to deal with when growing up. And it's not that I'm such a prude that I don't want the boys ever seeing a nekkid lady - but rather exposure to hard core porn really does affect how you view sex.
My view is it is important for them to understand that wanting to see pictures/vidoes of naked women is perfectly normal and where not to cross the line to the stuff that is harmful. Where that line is located is the big parenting issue and something we talk about in terms of respect for their partners etc. I suppose at the end of the day the one message I really drum into them is the respect issue.
I never wanted to see pictures/videos of naked women. :huh:
I did. Though I got my fill of that from National Geographic. ^_^
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 04:51:24 PM
I don't think there's any room for disagreement, to be honest. I think it's pretty well studied.
Porn has deeply shaped how kids today view sex. Several activities that seem to be now-commonplace - oral and anal sex, shaving pubic hair, were not seen in nearly the same numbers as you do nowadays.
Contrary to your moralistic Canadian high-mindedness, I would argue that suppression, censorship and other such strict puritanical negative controls actually does more damage to how sex is viewed by kids and how sexuality and sexual outlook evolves for them.
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 21, 2014, 05:06:41 PM
Newsflash: humanity will manage.
Humanity can go hang - I just want to make sure I do the best I can for my boys.
With the internet available I think it becomes even more important to have conversations about such matters with one's children, we need to be more open about such matters than we have been in the past.
:lol: Good one, Seedy.
Quote from: derspiess on November 21, 2014, 05:17:51 PM
:lol: Good one, Seedy.
I mean, look how I turned out. :mellow:
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 02:59:40 PM
CC how have you dealt with this with your boys? Don't ask, don't tell? Some sort of serious talk?
It is something I dealt with directly. I did not want them thinking that porn is normative. The problem is I think that a lot of people are beginning to think it is.
It is, depending on what yoy mean. The content is normative, by and large (adjusting for "pro" porns unrealistic blocking). The hyperrealism of porn resides mostly in its attributes as a movie, namely editing.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 06:40:56 PMIt is, depending on what yoy mean. The content is normative, by and large (adjusting for "pro" porns unrealistic blocking). The hyperrealism of porn resides mostly in its attributes as a movie, namely editing.
I understood what CC meant, but I'm not sure what you mean?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 02:59:40 PM
CC how have you dealt with this with your boys? Don't ask, don't tell? Some sort of serious talk?
It is something I dealt with directly. I did not want them thinking that porn is normative. The problem is I think that a lot of people are beginning to think it is.
By "dealt with directly" you mean you sat down with them and talked about porn?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 21, 2014, 05:17:07 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 21, 2014, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 21, 2014, 05:06:41 PM
Newsflash: humanity will manage.
Humanity can go hang - I just want to make sure I do the best I can for my boys.
With the internet available I think it becomes even more important to have conversations about such matters with one's children, we need to be more open about such matters than we have been in the past.
Agreed. But I am not sure BB is saying otherwise.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 06:47:02 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 06:40:56 PMIt is, depending on what yoy mean. The content is normative, by and large (adjusting for "pro" porns unrealistic blocking). The hyperrealism of porn resides mostly in its attributes as a movie, namely editing.
I understood what CC meant, but I'm not sure what you mean?
Most porn is girl boy, oral, vaginal, shallow end DS (if that), concluding with male orgasm. Normative as apple pie, in terms of content. Worst lesson you can learn is that women easily have orgasms from vaginal intercourse, and even this is a disappearing idea. The porn that isn't normative mostly just involves more than 2 partners, but the same basic stuff. There is occasionally anal, which is also mainstream, albeit overrepresented in porn.
The introduction of editing, aside from compressing time and hiding mistakes, also presents a more exciting, less monotonous, but also less realustic picture of sex. Cutting from shot to shot is already removing it from reality: cuts from scene to scene have no analogue in real human experience.
Then again, bukkake movies are usually a long take, and I don't think we'd call those realistic.
But the main point is that cinematic language is used to heighten the act being filmed, and that level of visual stimulation is not realistic.
Fwiw, tho, the actual subjects of porn are a lot more realistic and represent a greater range.of humanity than "real" movies.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 06:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 02:59:40 PM
CC how have you dealt with this with your boys? Don't ask, don't tell? Some sort of serious talk?
It is something I dealt with directly. I did not want them thinking that porn is normative. The problem is I think that a lot of people are beginning to think it is.
By "dealt with directly" you mean you sat down with them and talked about porn?
Yes. I think it would be silly for a parent to pretend that their boys dont know it is out there and cant easily access it. We have had very frank discussions about how much of the porn out there is unrealistic fantasy, degrading to women and potentially harmful to their relationships if they normalize that behaviour (of course I put it in different terms). I also try to make sure they also understand sex in real life is different, important and a natural part of adult life.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 07:11:21 PM
Fwiw, tho, the actual subjects of porn are a lot more realistic and represent a greater range.of humanity than "real" movies.
A big part of parenting in the early years is explaining that pretty much everything they see on a screen isnt "real".
CC, what behavior depicted in porn is not healthy? Serious question.
TBH, I'm no longer convinced that what is depicted in porn isn't like real life any more. What happens in real life has changed since some of you guys were young.
The research that suggests porn on tap can reaply screw with teenage minds ia quite convincing. It is disturbing stuff
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 21, 2014, 07:43:14 PM
TBH, I'm no longer convinced that what is depicted in porn isn't like real life any more. What happens in real life has changed since some of you guys were young.
No, seriously, as long as we're sticking to mainstream porn, what isn't? Anal. Chick don't (usually) really dig anal. (Then again some chicks do.) And I've found that most people aren't too into group sex, or only want to do it when they're drunk, and I really dislike drunken sex.
But as far as girl-boy scenes goes, I dunno what acts we're talking about. Any sex that doesn't take place through a hole in a curtain and end with a procreation-oriented creampie? What?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 21, 2014, 07:43:14 PM
TBH, I'm no longer convinced that what is depicted in porn isn't like real life any more. What happens in real life has changed since some of you guys were young.
That is exactly what BB is talking about. The sorts of degrading acts that would have seemed beyond the pale when I was young have become "normal" because so many people watch it being performed in porn on the internet.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 07:19:56 PM
CC, what behavior depicted in porn is not healthy? Serious question.
anything depicting violence or lack of consent for starters.
Some chicks like to be choked
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2014, 04:13:57 PM
QuoteAccording to the study, 40 per cent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 seek it out regularly
What they don't say about this survey is that 60 percent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 are lying little bastards.
I didn't seek out porn at that age.
Then you're talking about a relatively small subset of porn. Porn featuring explicit lack of consent is an extremely, vanishly small niche, at least going by xhamster. I've stumbled across actively violent porn maybe once or twice (thanks Japan).
Unless you're equating BDSM with violence, in which case it's a growing subset, but still not mainstream and is usually tagged separately and is also usually vividly different. Half the time it's not even sex as is typically understood.
That said, aspects of DS--without the other stuff--have always been mainstream. But then, DS is pretty inherent in sex anyway, albeit often at more or less subliminal levels.
But unless you haven't looked into it--and there's no reason for you to have, I guess--the vast, vast majority of porn is regular old sex jazzed up with a cinematic presentation. Or at least the same kind of sex I've had with pretty much every partner I've ever had. (Only one had an objection to facials, but did swallow.)
Query: would you prefer to avoid a frank conversation? I probably should have asked this earlier.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 21, 2014, 09:00:39 PM
Some chicks like to be choked
Yeah, I'd say like 50%. I count that as normal DS.
I'd also like to point out here that I'm making no claims as to whether anything described is unhealthy, only widely practiced.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 21, 2014, 09:02:46 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2014, 04:13:57 PM
QuoteAccording to the study, 40 per cent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 seek it out regularly
What they don't say about this survey is that 60 percent of boys between Grades 7 and 11 are lying little bastards.
I didn't seek out porn at that age.
If I'd had regular access to porn at that age, it's possible I wouldn't be as fucked up as I am. Certainly, if I'd had regular sex in high school, I'd be president by now. And I'm only 32.
That's the difference it would have made.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 21, 2014, 05:01:47 PMI'm all for consensual off-piste sexual entertainment; but there is that big problem/fear that lads might normalise misogyny if online porn is their main information at a tender age, that is the main worry I would argue.
Yeah for me the worry isn't the sexual acts but the way boys used to porn start to view and behave towards women (assuming they're not watching extreme stuff which would worry me).
QuoteA big part of parenting in the early years is explaining that pretty much everything they see on a screen isnt "real".
Something my mum solved by making me watch a 'Making of' video about Terminator 2 before watching the film. I was about 10 at the time :lol:
QuoteNo, seriously, as long as we're sticking to mainstream porn, what isn't? Anal. Chick don't (usually) really dig anal. (Then again some chicks do.) And I've found that most people aren't too into group sex, or only want to do it when they're drunk, and I really dislike drunken sex.
I saw a show that interviewed teens about porn (it was BBC 3, I was waiting for Stacey Dooley :blush:) and I didn't think it was normal that all the girls were saying how much the guys wanted to cum on their face. I think that's a result of porn. If the girls wants to do it fine, but I don't think (and the girls didn't) think it should be seen as normal vanilla sex.
Having said that maybe that's how heterosexuals have always courted? :mellow:
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:11:43 PM
Then you're talking about a relatively small subset of porn. Porn featuring explicit lack of consent is an extremely, vanishly small niche, at least going by xhamster. I've stumbled across actively violent porn maybe once or twice (thanks Japan).
I didnt say "explicit" lack of consent or "actively" voilent but I think your need to qualify it as such is telling. Lets look at it a different way. You seem to know a lot about the subject so tell me when was the last time you saw porn that was explicitly consensual and actively not violent (ie loving and tender).
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 21, 2014, 09:30:19 PM
I saw a show that interviewed teens about porn (it was BBC 3, I was waiting for Stacey Dooley :blush:) and I didn't think it was normal that all the girls were saying how much the guys wanted to cum on their face. I think that's a result of porn. If the girls wants to do it fine, but I don't think (and the girls didn't) think it should be seen as normal vanilla sex.
Having said that maybe that's how heterosexuals have always courted? :mellow:
I think it's just another DS thing. Probably originating from a primitive/instinctive drive to "mark" territory.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 09:44:47 PMwhen was the last time you saw porn that was explicitly consensual and actively not violent (ie loving and tender).
Isn't that almost all of it?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 09:44:47 PM
when was the last time you saw porn that was explicitly consensual and actively not violent (ie loving and tender).
Most porn these days are explicitly consensual and non-violent. May or may not qualify for "tender", but explicit rape is rare. Japan and its hentai do defy the trend a bit, but the majority of Japanese or hentai porn are still consensual.
CC: I was qualifying "violence" only because I doubt we'd reach an agreement that BDSM isn't violent, and that's just a semantic question anyway. And you misread the thing about consent. What I said that there explicitly non-consensual sex in porn is rare, which a quick look at any random sampling of pornography would demonstrate--I doubt you'd find video explicitly featuring rape if you went through the first 1000 videos on any given site. (Maybe a sexual assault: Japanese porn can be completely normal, but the islands are legendary for their weird stuff and not without reason.)
That said, almost all porn (99.9%+) is narratively as explicit as you can get without going into the ontology of one-dimensional fictional characters' motivations, and is often graphically explicit. I'm rather certain every scene I've ever watched has been consensual in the legal sense, from a production standpoint; on rare occasions you can see the actors get sore about stuff, but not in a sort of way that would obviate consent.
"Tender and loving" and "nonconsensual and violent" presents a false dichotomy, of course, but to answer the question, I think I saw some tender loving porn about two days ago. Just to pull two names out, Lelu Love and Camille Crimson both work or did work with their boyfriends. In the case of Love, there's a lot of role-playing stuff that falls into the heavy DS camp, but there's a lot of normal nice sex too. Crimson and her partner were pretty exclusively tender and loving. Also, there's a fair amount of gauzily-lit, well-production designed, nice vanilla porn, presented as female-centric, and it's perfectly pleasant to watch. You'll find stuff that self-consciously sleazy, but it is balanced with stuff that's kind-hearted, and of course the great bulk is anonymous, mechanical fucking.
I will concede that I've very rarely (almost never/maybe never) heard an "I love you" in porn, which is kind of a shame. Tied with "Get me pregnant" and "I'm a little whore" for hottest words in the English language.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 08:59:47 PM
anything depicting violence or lack of consent for starters.
Huh. I have to say that is almost never seen on any mainstream porn site that I can think of...or rather one that I could imagine if I were to know anything about this sort of thing.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 21, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 21, 2014, 09:30:19 PM
I saw a show that interviewed teens about porn (it was BBC 3, I was waiting for Stacey Dooley :blush:) and I didn't think it was normal that all the girls were saying how much the guys wanted to cum on their face. I think that's a result of porn. If the girls wants to do it fine, but I don't think (and the girls didn't) think it should be seen as normal vanilla sex.
Having said that maybe that's how heterosexuals have always courted? :mellow:
I think it's just another DS thing. Probably originating from a primitive/instinctive drive to "mark" territory.
I don't think facials are DS stuff at all. You've gotta do something with it, why not do something nice?
I'd say the person giving oral sex is the presumptively dominant partner: they're in control of the other person's sensations. Obviously, you can switch that, but it takes an active effort to do so.
As for Shaun's supposition, I do think it's been popularized by pornography, but I also think it's either become vanilla sex, or always was; it's intimately linked with swallowing semen, which almost certainly is not an innovation of porn, but the natural outcome to a good blowjob (and representative of the natural desire to place semen within the body of a partner, that being where it goes in order to propagate the species). Also gay guys like facials just fine.
Quote from: Valmy on November 21, 2014, 10:32:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 21, 2014, 08:59:47 PM
anything depicting violence or lack of consent for starters.
Huh. I have to say that is almost never seen on any mainstream porn site that I can think of...or rather one that I could imagine if I were to know anything about this sort of thing.
Honestly, I think CC is just trying to be cagey about what he thinks is normative sex. I actually bet his opinions aren't too different from the consensus, since he seems like a normal joe (other than his unconscionable tallness), but rather that he's just squicked by the whole concept of porn (and masturbation generally).
Edit: I say this without malice or trying to put words in anybody's mouth.
i guess it depends on how you view sex.
I'd say "with a romantic partner, usually yes, or at least that should be a major element of it."
With a merely friendly partner, yeah, sure, what's the harm? You might not know them well enough to slap them around.
Sex should be dirty and sweaty. With a hint of shame.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 10:58:07 PM
I'd say "with a romantic partner, usually yes, or at least that should be a major element of it."
:hmm:
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 21, 2014, 11:00:57 PM
Sex should be dirty and sweaty. With a hint of shame.
Sheilbh read that as "a hint of Michael Fassbender."
Quote from: LaCroix on November 21, 2014, 11:06:28 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 10:58:07 PM
I'd say "with a romantic partner, usually yes, or at least that should be a major element of it."
:hmm:
:unsure:
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:10:09 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 21, 2014, 11:00:57 PM
Sex should be dirty and sweaty. With a hint of shame.
Sheilbh read that as "a hint of Michael Fassbender."
And a Cumberbatch.
Porn gives you the encumbered batch.
Also, garbon: THANK YOU.
That guy looks like a Jewish Grey.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:11:43 PMBut unless you haven't looked into it--and there's no reason for you to have, I guess--the vast, vast majority of porn is regular old sex jazzed up with a cinematic presentation. Or at least the same kind of sex I've had with pretty much every partner I've ever had. (Only one had an objection to facials, but did swallow.)
I think your liking of facials are a good indication of how porn has influenced sex, since they're pretty much the definition of an porn-like act performed for the camera. That you have developed such an attachment to that act is, I'd wager, down to your consumption of porn.
Now, I'm not saying it's particularly unhealthy, but it's a good illustration of how that influences how people approach sex.
I don't think that it's beyond the pale to assume that other acts and the general attitudes shown in porn also influences attitudes, especially in young people (and I believe a few people in this thread have said studies support that assumption).
Also, I think your assertion that most porn is "just two people fucking" is a little blithe - you've got all kinds of racial fetishization, all kinds of dominance and submission, all kinds of humiliation porn, all kinds of class and race conflicts, hints at inappropriate ages etc etc.
It's not that any given one of those types of porn are inherently "bad" - what consenting adults get off to is their business, as are their fantasies - but the aggregate of all this stuff nonetheless creates the illusion that there are all these hot chicks out there just gagging for your cock exactly the way that gets you off.
I wouldn't be surprised if the rise of the MRA, incels, red pill, PUA and other assorted masculinist losers is at least partially down to the prevalence of porn - their view of women and sex seems pretty consistent with the way they're depicted in porn these days at least.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:13:51 PM
Yeah, I'd say like 50%. I count that as normal DS.
50% of chicks like to be choked?
Do you mean, a hand placed near the throat or do you mean actually restricting airflow?
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:16:04 PM
If I'd had regular access to porn at that age, it's possible I wouldn't be as fucked up as I am. Certainly, if I'd had regular sex in high school, I'd be president by now. And I'm only 32. That's the difference it would have made.
I think this is another example of how porn fucks people up. Lots and lots of people don't have sex in high school.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:13:51 PM
Yeah, I'd say like 50%. I count that as normal DS.
50% of chicks like to be choked?
Do you mean, a hand placed near the throat or do you mean actually restricting airflow?
Pressures on arteries. I've never met anyone who likes their trachea manipulated. (Also, it was a little joke, given as it is based on a sample of women who wanted to have sex with me. :P )
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 21, 2014, 09:30:19 PM
I saw a show that interviewed teens about porn (it was BBC 3, I was waiting for Stacey Dooley :blush:) and I didn't think it was normal that all the girls were saying how much the guys wanted to cum on their face. I think that's a result of porn. If the girls wants to do it fine, but I don't think (and the girls didn't) think it should be seen as normal vanilla sex.
Having said that maybe that's how heterosexuals have always courted? :mellow:
No.
Facials are from porn - they're the way that they can show it's for real. Ejaculating on the face is the most intimate way to *show* ejaculation because the face is very personal; and showing some guy ejaculating inside a women is not visually stimulating.
That it has become a standard is very much evidence of the influence of porn IMO.
It also adds a humilation-D/S factor to the situation.
I remember reading a (stridently feminist) analysis of pornography in which the prevalence and popularity of oral sex in porn (particularly facials, swallowing, and the portrayal by actresses of a wanton desire to perform fellatio comparable to hunger) is due to a subconscious male desire to make up for the inability to breastfeed, and that oral sex and the subsequent "feeding" of semen is to compensate that.
While a compelling argument, personally I think it's due to the very conscious male desire to just see his penis in a woman's mouth. Sometimes a blowjob is just a blowjob.
I've dated women who won't do blowjobs. And also some who desperately wanted to do them. That analysis does not explain it.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:19:13 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:16:04 PM
If I'd had regular access to porn at that age, it's possible I wouldn't be as fucked up as I am. Certainly, if I'd had regular sex in high school, I'd be president by now. And I'm only 32. That's the difference it would have made.
I think this is another example of how porn fucks people up. Lots and lots of people don't have sex in high school.
Well, lots and lots of people ain't me. You know me. You know it's a valid thesis.
We could just say "if I'd had a girlfriend." But, no, I wouldn't have gotten any true validation. I had a girlfriend at age 18 for half a year and we didn't have sex (excepting one--one--handjob). I can't really count that as a romantic relationship, can I? Which means I was never loved until Korea came along when I was 23 and my brain had mostly taken its final form. It's also probably why I fucked that up so badly.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:25:10 PM
Well, lots and lots of people ain't me. You know me. You know it's a valid thesis.
We could just say "if I'd had a girlfriend." But, no, I wouldn't have gotten any true validation. I had a girlfriend at age 18 for half a year and we didn't have sex (excepting one--one--handjob). I can't really count that as a romantic relationship, can I? Which means I was never loved until Korea came along when I was 23 and my brain had mostly taken its final form. It's also probably why I fucked that up so badly.
Age 23 is not particularly uncommon for "first proper relationship" and/or sex, I don't think. I mean, it sure feels like it when you're 16 and want to get laid and it takes another seven years, but there's a lot of things to figure out. And, of course, most people who are older than 16 will front to most of their peers.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:11:43 PMBut unless you haven't looked into it--and there's no reason for you to have, I guess--the vast, vast majority of porn is regular old sex jazzed up with a cinematic presentation. Or at least the same kind of sex I've had with pretty much every partner I've ever had. (Only one had an objection to facials, but did swallow.)
I think your liking of facials are a good indication of how porn has influenced sex, since they're pretty much the definition of an porn-like act performed for the camera. That you have developed such an attachment to that act is, I'd wager, down to your consumption of porn.
Now, I'm not saying it's particularly unhealthy, but it's a good illustration of how that influences how people approach sex.
I don't think that it's beyond the pale to assume that other acts and the general attitudes shown in porn also influences attitudes, especially in young people (and I believe a few people in this thread have said studies support that assumption).
Also, I think your assertion that most porn is "just two people fucking" is a little blithe - you've got all kinds of racial fetishization, all kinds of dominance and submission, all kinds of humiliation porn, all kinds of class and race conflicts, hints at inappropriate ages etc etc.
It's not that any given one of those types of porn are inherently "bad" - what consenting adults get off to is their business, as are their fantasies - but the aggregate of all this stuff nonetheless creates the illusion that there are all these hot chicks out there just gagging for your cock exactly the way that gets you off.
I wouldn't be surprised if the rise of the MRA, incels, red pill, PUA and other assorted masculinist losers is at least partially down to the prevalence of porn - their view of women and sex seems pretty consistent with the way they're depicted in porn these days at least.
Jake, I think these are all or mostly all good points, and would like to discuss them further. Don't think I have time right now.
One minor counterpoint: sometimes ejaculating in a woman's (or, I suppose, a man's) mouth isn't entirely pleasurable. It can give that overstimulated feeling. And I would be SHOCKED to find out facials did not exist prior to the film medium.
Oh, and fyi I'm more into creampies these days.
The girls seem to expect what they see in the porn nowadays. Dunno if that's good or bad. But it might be fun.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 21, 2014, 11:24:36 PM
I've dated women who won't do blowjobs. And also some who desperately wanted to do them. That analysis does not explain it.
That's why meta analysis of sexual practices and affinities are practically useless: everyone's wired differently. And women are just as wired differently as men. Just so happens that sometimes their buttons are harder to find and push than others.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PMAnd I would be SHOCKED to find out facials did not exist prior to the film medium.
I'm sure they existed, but I'm pretty confident they were not considered "normal" acts. If they are now, that's an example of the normative influence of porn.
... and it's a bit of a pity, really, because if facials are "everyday vanilla sex" that takes away the transgressive frisson.
As an aside: I'd think that if you're really into performing facials on your girl and she's not super keen, you're going to get further with "yeah, I know it's kinda dirty, but it really does it for me; tell me what gets you off, and I'll do that too; let's push boundaries together" than "it's a normal thing and I'm going to imply that there's something wrong with you if you don't let me do it, even if you don't care for it."
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:29:16 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:25:10 PM
Well, lots and lots of people ain't me. You know me. You know it's a valid thesis.
We could just say "if I'd had a girlfriend." But, no, I wouldn't have gotten any true validation. I had a girlfriend at age 18 for half a year and we didn't have sex (excepting one--one--handjob). I can't really count that as a romantic relationship, can I? Which means I was never loved until Korea came along when I was 23 and my brain had mostly taken its final form. It's also probably why I fucked that up so badly.
Age 23 is not particularly uncommon for "first proper relationship" and/or sex, I don't think. I mean, it sure feels like it when you're 16 and want to get laid and it takes another seven years, but there's a lot of things to figure out. And, of course, most people who are older than 16 will front to most of their peers.
Well, it took me till about age 30 to learn how to lie to people in order to bolster my status and increase my own standing, confidence and chances of success, and I'm still bad at it, because I think it's evil.
MIM: no oral sex = dealbreaker. I like giving it too much to go through a whole relationship feeling exploited.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
"yeah, I know it's kinda dirty, but it really does it for me; tell me what gets you off, and I'll do that too; let's push boundaries together"
:wub: Oh, Jake. :wub:
:lol:
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PMAnd I would be SHOCKED to find out facials did not exist prior to the film medium.
I'm sure they existed, but I'm pretty confident they were not considered "normal" acts. If they are now, that's an example of the normative influence of porn.
... and it's a bit of a pity, really, because if facials are "everyday vanilla sex" that takes away the transgressive frisson.
As an aside: I'd think that if you're really into performing facials on your girl and she's not super keen, you're going to get further with "yeah, I know it's kinda dirty, but it really does it for me; tell me what gets you off, and I'll do that too; let's push boundaries together" than "it's a normal thing and I'm going to imply that there's something wrong with you if you don't let me do it, even if you don't care for it."
Remember Africa? Didn't like facials. Didn't care. Maybe you meant the general you?
I can live without facials.
I couldn't live with someone so disgusted by semen that they wouldn't take it anywhere. It's unromantic, awkward, and arguably even rude. They might as well join a nunnery. Or the priesthood, I guess. But is it "wrong"? "Wrong" implies a moral judgment. Being dissatisfied with someone's sexual acumen is not, strictly speaking, a moral judgment.
I really like being asked "Where do you want it?" I always want to ask if they can use a hand towel. <_<
There's a place for you in the church. WTF. You're a gay man. That makes double no sense.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:47:22 PM
There's a place for you in the church. WTF. You're a gay man. That makes double no sense.
Being gay doesn't mean I want to wear semen. Nor does it mean I want to make polite conversation (or any conversation) while having sex.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2014, 11:41:26 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
"yeah, I know it's kinda dirty, but it really does it for me; tell me what gets you off, and I'll do that too; let's push boundaries together"
:wub: Oh, Jake. :wub:
:lol:
(I'd phrase it differently, of course)
Quote from: Jacob on November 22, 2014, 12:08:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2014, 11:41:26 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
"yeah, I know it's kinda dirty, but it really does it for me; tell me what gets you off, and I'll do that too; let's push boundaries together"
:wub: Oh, Jake. :wub:
:lol:
(I'd phrase it differently, of course)
How? That's about as tame as it can get. :D
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:45:56 PM
I couldn't live with someone so disgusted by semen that they wouldn't take it anywhere. It's unromantic, awkward, and arguably even rude. They might as well join a nunnery. Or the priesthood, I guess. But is it "wrong"? "Wrong" implies a moral judgment. Being dissatisfied with someone's sexual acumen is not, strictly speaking, a moral judgment.
Does "take it anywhere" include "inside the vagina" and/or "inside a condom inside the vagina"? Or are you seriously suggesting that not wanting ejaculate squirted on you is unromantic, awkward, and possibly even rude?
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 22, 2014, 12:10:02 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 22, 2014, 12:08:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2014, 11:41:26 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
"yeah, I know it's kinda dirty, but it really does it for me; tell me what gets you off, and I'll do that too; let's push boundaries together"
:wub: Oh, Jake. :wub:
:lol:
(I'd phrase it differently, of course)
How? That's about as tame as it can get. :D
It's not so much about the tameness as it is about time and place and picking the words that are appropriate for the specific context.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PMAnd I would be SHOCKED to find out facials did not exist prior to the film medium.
I'm sure they existed, but I'm pretty confident they were not considered "normal" acts. If they are now, that's an example of the normative influence of porn.
Yeah, I agree. Ide's view on this is skewed because he's young enough that hardcore porn was already fairly easily available by the time he was old enough to be interested. When I was in HS and even college, to view hardcore you basically had to go to a porn theater--VCRs existed, but they were quite expensive and not very common before the mid-80s, and hardly anyone had heard of the internet (and I doubt there was much porn on the net at the time, if for no other reason that transfer rates were so low that there wouldn't have been much point).
The ladies Ide's age had the same experience he did. Don't be misogynistic.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 22, 2014, 12:53:54 AM
The ladies Ide's age had the same experience he did. Don't be misogynistic.
That's a bit of a non-sequiteur.
Also, misogynistic is not the same as sexist.
Quote from: dps on November 22, 2014, 12:50:03 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PMAnd I would be SHOCKED to find out facials did not exist prior to the film medium.
I'm sure they existed, but I'm pretty confident they were not considered "normal" acts. If they are now, that's an example of the normative influence of porn.
Yeah, I agree. Ide's view on this is skewed because he's young enough that hardcore porn was already fairly easily available by the time he was old enough to be interested. When I was in HS and even college, to view hardcore you basically had to go to a porn theater--VCRs existed, but they were quite expensive and not very common before the mid-80s, and hardly anyone had heard of the internet (and I doubt there was much porn on the net at the time, if for no other reason that transfer rates were so low that there wouldn't have been much point).
It was a hard time when your nudie pictures were in ASCII. :(
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:11:43 PM
Then you're talking about a relatively small subset of porn. Porn featuring explicit lack of consent is an extremely, vanishly small niche, at least going by xhamster. I've stumbled across actively violent porn maybe once or twice (thanks Japan).
There's a surprising amount of (non-BDSM) Western porn that features rough sex that includes aggressive choking and face punching. Even though it's not really depicted as rape I find it's a major turn off.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:11:43 PMBut unless you haven't looked into it--and there's no reason for you to have, I guess--the vast, vast majority of porn is regular old sex jazzed up with a cinematic presentation. Or at least the same kind of sex I've had with pretty much every partner I've ever had. (Only one had an objection to facials, but did swallow.)
I think your liking of facials are a good indication of how porn has influenced sex, since they're pretty much the definition of an porn-like act performed for the camera. That you have developed such an attachment to that act is, I'd wager, down to your consumption of porn.
Now, I'm not saying it's particularly unhealthy, but it's a good illustration of how that influences how people approach sex.
I don't think that it's beyond the pale to assume that other acts and the general attitudes shown in porn also influences attitudes, especially in young people (and I believe a few people in this thread have said studies support that assumption).
Also, I think your assertion that most porn is "just two people fucking" is a little blithe - you've got all kinds of racial fetishization, all kinds of dominance and submission, all kinds of humiliation porn, all kinds of class and race conflicts, hints at inappropriate ages etc etc.
It's not that any given one of those types of porn are inherently "bad" - what consenting adults get off to is their business, as are their fantasies - but the aggregate of all this stuff nonetheless creates the illusion that there are all these hot chicks out there just gagging for your cock exactly the way that gets you off.
I wouldn't be surprised if the rise of the MRA, incels, red pill, PUA and other assorted masculinist losers is at least partially down to the prevalence of porn - their view of women and sex seems pretty consistent with the way they're depicted in porn these days at least.
But you can look at it differently as well. I remember being drawn to what are now my fetishes from a relatively early age (although at the time it was not fully sexualised). I have not started to look at porn I liked until I was in my early to mid twenties (thanks, Internet) but once I did, it convinced me my fetishes are not that uncommon and I was finally able to acknowledge them rather than being ashamed of them.
At the same time, no amount of gay porn has convinced me to like anal.
I can see how younger kids may be obviously affected negatively by porn, but for older teens/young adults I think it can actually be quite beneficial in coming to terms with one's sexuality (which, interestingly, seems to be more difficult for straight people than openly gay people).
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:36:52 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PMAnd I would be SHOCKED to find out facials did not exist prior to the film medium.
I'm sure they existed, but I'm pretty confident they were not considered "normal" acts. If they are now, that's an example of the normative influence of porn.
... and it's a bit of a pity, really, because if facials are "everyday vanilla sex" that takes away the transgressive frisson.
The same has been said about gay sex or interracial sex. It does not mean this is a bad thing.
I think we mainly dispute the article's (and the "conservative Canadians'") apparent (apparent, because they are too prudish to say this explicitly) assertion that normalising a broader range of consensual sexual practices is a bad thing.
Quote from: garbon on November 21, 2014, 11:46:19 PM
I really like being asked "Where do you want it?" I always want to ask if they can use a hand towel. <_<
I gotta say I feel the same. :ph34r:
In general, I tend to agree with Quentin Crisp that sex is just a poor substitute for masturbation. :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 22, 2014, 02:03:57 AM
In general, I tend to agree with Quentin Crisp that sex is just a poor substitute for masturbation. :P
Amen to that.
Quote from: Martinus on November 22, 2014, 02:03:57 AM
In general, I tend to agree with Quentin Crisp that sex is just a poor substitute for masturbation. :P
I am the mastur of my fate, I am the captain of my sole?
I thank Jacob for teaching me interesting new things, like about incels and red pills.
That said, isn't the relationship between actual sex and media sex pretty well established. The media will set the tone, just like it did with blowjobs. Those were becoming mainstream when the internet was a sparkle in Al Gore mind.
Reading Ide's views of sex is so depressing. He even makes Squeeze views look optimistic.
Quote from: Neil on November 22, 2014, 08:25:50 PM
I thank Jacob for teaching me interesting new things, like about incels and red pills.
That said, isn't the relationship between actual sex and media sex pretty well established. The media will set the tone, just like it did with blowjobs. Those were becoming mainstream when the internet was a sparkle in Al Gore mind.
Ridgemont High with the carrot.
Refresh my memory about the carrot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ-MY6zjRHU
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 22, 2014, 09:11:08 PM
Reading Ide's views of sex is so depressing. He even makes Squeeze views look optimistic.
:unsure:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 22, 2014, 09:38:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 22, 2014, 02:03:57 AM
In general, I tend to agree with Quentin Crisp that sex is just a poor substitute for masturbation. :P
Amen to that.
Now, now. You too need to stop cribbing Grallon.
For some reason I can't get my self work-up about this thread topic. :hmm:
Quote from: Neil on November 22, 2014, 08:25:50 PM
I thank Jacob for teaching me interesting new things, like about incels and red pills.
Enjoy! :)
QuoteThat said, isn't the relationship between actual sex and media sex pretty well established. The media will set the tone, just like it did with blowjobs. Those were becoming mainstream when the internet was a sparkle in Al Gore mind.
I think it is, yeah.
The thing that is most unrealistic and problematic about porn is not the particular acts depicted (outside of obvious non-starters like non-consent and violent porn), but the very mechanics of it - in the vast majority of porn, people take off clothes (or are already unclothed) and simply start fucking.
This simply isn't how people actually fuck in real life (or at least, speaking of hetero people: I know nothing of gay sex). If a guy actually tried that in real life with most women, it would not work well.
Granted, porn is supposed to be visually stimulating, and apparently most people find visual depictions of foreplay boring - but the fact is that if people are taking porn for their sex manuals, the role of foreplay would be very badly underplayed, leading to unsatisfying sex.
Its probably why porn leads to erectile dysfunction. Guys begin to think that is all there is to sex.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 23, 2014, 12:27:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 22, 2014, 09:11:08 PM
Reading Ide's views of sex is so depressing. He even makes Squeeze views look optimistic.
:unsure:
It's humiliation & going thru the motions.
:snooze:
Malthus also would like characters in action movies to have to use the bathroom, I guess.
Also, depends on your definition of foreplay. It's compressed in time thru editing, like the sex itself, but is often (perhaps even typically?) present in ordinary girl boy scenes.
GF, yoy have no idea how I fuck, so I'd prefer if you didn't make assumptions.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 01:07:22 PM
Malthus also would like characters in action movies to have to use the bathroom, I guess.
Also, depends on your definition of foreplay. It's compressed in time thru editing, like the sex itself, but is often (perhaps even typically?) present in ordinary girl boy scenes.
I think you are missing my point - I fully understand why porn makers tend not to include foreplay: they are making wanking material, not documentaries about human sexuality. :lol:
The issue is that if teens are taking their cues about real-life sex from porn, they will be badly mislead.
To my mind it isn't that porn = mysogeny and violence against women, but far more the case that porn = a bad role model for an actual sexual experience, in many ways:
(1) The aforementioned lack of foreplay is the most serious;
(2) Porn selects for male actors with very uncommonly large male genitals;
(3) Male porn actors can fuck for hours (which is both unrealistic and, if it occurred in real life, would not actually be pleasurable);
(4) Unrealistic, uncomfortable sexual positions designed to allow the camera maximum coverage.
Each of these makes perfect sense for the filmmakers, but none at all for people actually attempting to have sex.
The difference between this, and characters in action movies not going to the bathroom, is that kids already know they have to go to the bathroom - no-one is born knowing how to have satisfying sex; that has to be learned. Also, most folks will never have to actually perform the feats of action movie heroes, whereas (hopefully) they will eventually have sex.
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
It isn't so much that they would make a concious decision that pornos are instrictional sex videos, as that if this is the common image of sexuality they see, they may potentially take it as normative.
Mal, I agree with all you.just said, except for the unstated premise that young adults don't understand, or cannot understand, that porn is not a documentary or how-to manual in the strict or ethical sense or either term. That said, there is some aspirational bent to much pornography, some valuable, some (agreed) potentially damaging. Comparing oneself to the monsters of cock is an exercise in frustration.
Jake, I still need to find some time to reply to.you.
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
Well see, that's the thing - kids are pretty fucking stupid.
Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
Well see, that's the thing - kids are pretty fucking stupid.
I might not be the biggest fan of kids but I have more faith in them than that. After all, if you are exploring and try something that doesn't work, how long will they continue to try something that didn't work?
Quote from: Mal
The issue is that if teens are taking their cues about real-life sex from porn, they will be badly mislead.
I used to believe that. But now I don't think it's true. Porn and real life have come way closer together. The scifi outlandish stuff is still outlandish. The stuff you see at night on Showtime is tamer than what teenagers can expect on the whole.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
It isn't so much that they would make a concious decision that pornos are instrictional sex videos, as that if this is the common image of sexuality they see, they may potentially take it as normative.
I'm not buying it. If it is something uncomfortable, I think though exploration they'd recognize that isn't something they should do. I don't know why they would continue to do something that they (or their sexual partners) don't like just because they saw it on a video. We see videos all the time, of all sorts of things, that aren't how things really are in real life. What's so special or unique about a sexual video?
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
Well see, that's the thing - kids are pretty fucking stupid.
I might not be the biggest fan of kids but I have more faith in them than that. After all, if you are exploring and try something that doesn't work, how long will they continue to try something that didn't work?
But people have insatisfying sex all the time. It would not necessarily be obvious to them what the source of unhappiness was - for example, a guy having unsatisfying sex with an equally naive woman may well blame his lack of size (apparently, a very common hang-up) rather than his lack of foreplay.
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:45:44 PM
I'm not buying it. If it is something uncomfortable, I think though exploration they'd recognize that isn't something they should do. I don't know why they would continue to do something that they (or their sexual partners) don't like just because they saw it on a video. We see videos all the time, of all sorts of things, that aren't how things really are in real life. What's so special or unique about a sexual video?
I recall BB saying that when porn became available over the internet the number of anal sexual assualts went up dramatically. I am not sure how one can argue that the availability of porn hasnt had an effect on the way society as a whole understands sexuality and particularly those who have come of age during this period.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
(1) The aforementioned lack of foreplay is the most serious;
(2) Porn selects for male actors with very uncommonly large male genitals;
(3) Male porn actors can fuck for hours (which is both unrealistic and, if it occurred in real life, would not actually be pleasurable);
(4) Unrealistic, uncomfortable sexual positions designed to allow the camera maximum coverage.
(5) All women are giant nymphos and want sex all the time, and desire nothing in return.
:)
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
Well see, that's the thing - kids are pretty fucking stupid.
I might not be the biggest fan of kids but I have more faith in them than that. After all, if you are exploring and try something that doesn't work, how long will they continue to try something that didn't work?
But people have insatisfying sex all the time. It would not necessarily be obvious to them what the source of unhappiness was - for example, a guy having unsatisfying sex with an equally naive woman may well blame his lack of size (apparently, a very common hang-up) rather than his lack of foreplay.
Well then maybe we should be more open about providing sex positive education to our kids / ending slut shaming. Btw, what you've described are issues that can and have impacted human sexual relations throughout time. Do porno vids actually make that worse?
Another thing I meant to mention a while back is that the ED isn't thought to be porn.induced as masturbation induced. (Researchers do differ somewhat.) Obviously if you're jerking.off 3 times a day, if you try to bang that night, problems may arise. Also, you train yourself to respond to an impossible, immediate-feedback handjob rather than the very different sensations provided by a (presumambly) non-telepathic partner. Making matters worse, many women are bad at sex, OR, more accurately, it often takes a practice round or two before sex is good with any given partner. Sadly, a lot.of folks don't understand that.
Oh, and there's also the purely.physiological keratinization of penile skin. But if circumcision is ok, I don't see the.objection to the lesser issue of jerking off a lot.
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:36:24 PM
Kids are pretty fucking stupid if they think pornos are supposed to be instructional sex videos.
It isn't so much that they would make a concious decision that pornos are instrictional sex videos, as that if this is the common image of sexuality they see, they may potentially take it as normative.
I'm not buying it. If it is something uncomfortable, I think though exploration they'd recognize that isn't something they should do. I don't know why they would continue to do something that they (or their sexual partners) don't like just because they saw it on a video. We see videos all the time, of all sorts of things, that aren't how things really are in real life. What's so special or unique about a sexual video?
Most of the exciting stuff we see in videos is not what we are likely to actually do - for example, action movie heroics.
Other stuff is stuff that we are later *taught* to do - for example, driving a car. If you do it badly, you will get instant feedback from experts (or, in extreme cases, the police. :D).
I can't immediately think of any other activity which is like sex - something many people do completely privately, often with people who are just as naive as they are, are not taught to do, and unlikely to get truly honest feedback on.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2014, 01:50:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:45:44 PM
I'm not buying it. If it is something uncomfortable, I think though exploration they'd recognize that isn't something they should do. I don't know why they would continue to do something that they (or their sexual partners) don't like just because they saw it on a video. We see videos all the time, of all sorts of things, that aren't how things really are in real life. What's so special or unique about a sexual video?
I recall BB saying that when porn became available over the internet the number of anal sexual assualts went up dramatically. I am not sure how one can argue that the availability of porn hasnt had an effect on the way society as a whole understands sexuality and particularly those who have come of age during this period.
I don't think at all that I was trying to say it has no impact - but simply that I think that the negative impact is being overplayed, much like what happens anytime that we trying and look at the impact that media might have on our lives.
For myself, I would say that the internet helped me sort out any confusion I had about my sexuality at a much younger age - sparing me years of being uncertain with regards to what I like. It also helped me to block out garbage that I heard in school like how terrible anal sex is,
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
Most of the exciting stuff we see in videos is not what we are likely to actually do - for example, action movie heroics.
Other stuff is stuff that we are later *taught* to do - for example, driving a car. If you do it badly, you will get instant feedback from experts (or, in extreme cases, the police. :D).
Fair enough. I'll agree that sex is something that we never really get learned feedback on - well apart from I guess chatting with friends.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
I can't immediately think of any other activity which is like sex - something many people do completely privately, often with people who are just as naive as they are, are not taught to do, and unlikely to get truly honest feedback on.
So are you saying that there is greater damage being done from some unrealistic scenes in a porno that make having them available worse than if naive individuals were just fumbling about? What is it that pornos teach that is so wrong? I saw in this thread some lack of consent stuff but I think as a society we put out pretty strong message about consent. Hell we put out pretty strong messages about consent.
Also foreplay objection seems a little odd in that, I don't think it takes a genius to try it out and be like oh, I like that. I can't speak to straight vids, but I know it is featured in a fair amount of gay vids.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
Another thing I meant to mention a while back is that the ED isn't thought to be porn.induced as masturbation induced. (Researchers do differ somewhat.) Obviously if you're jerking.off 3 times a day, if you try to bang that night, problems may arise. Also, you train yourself to respond to an impossible, immediate-feedback handjob rather than the very different sensations provided by a (presumambly) non-telepathic partner. Making matters worse, many women are bad at sex, OR, more accurately, it often takes a practice round or two before sex is good with any given partner. Sadly, a lot.of folks don't understand that.
Oh, and there's also the purely.physiological keratinization of penile skin. But if circumcision is ok, I don't see the.objection to the lesser issue of jerking off a lot.
Dan Savage for years has advocated against the "death grip" form of masturbation.
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:54:59 PM
Well then maybe we should be more open about providing sex positive education to our kids / ending slut shaming. Btw, what you've described are issues that can and have impacted human sexual relations throughout time. Do porno vids actually make that worse?
I agree more sex positive education would be a good thing, though I wonder if our society is really ready for significant 'how to' education - considering how serious the hang-ups over sex are, particularly where teens are involved. :D
I do think porn has the potential to make existing problems worse. Take for example the apparently common hetero male hang-up over penis size. If you already worried about that, you would worry about it a lot more if every naked guy you actually saw hard (that is, in porn - where else would a hetero guy see other guys with hard-ons?) sported a 12 inch schlong, right?
Quote from: Caliga on November 24, 2014, 01:51:35 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
(1) The aforementioned lack of foreplay is the most serious;
(2) Porn selects for male actors with very uncommonly large male genitals;
(3) Male porn actors can fuck for hours (which is both unrealistic and, if it occurred in real life, would not actually be pleasurable);
(4) Unrealistic, uncomfortable sexual positions designed to allow the camera maximum coverage.
(5) All women are giant nymphos and want sex all the time, and desire nothing in return.
:)
Hey now. Sex is a mutual exchange. It is it's own return. :)
Btw, can we please start defining our terms? What ia foreplay? Some of you.people went to law school ffs.
Is it kissing/touching/oral sex, or do you have a more encompassing definition?
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
Another thing I meant to mention a while back is that the ED isn't thought to be porn.induced as masturbation induced. (Researchers do differ somewhat.) Obviously if you're jerking.off 3 times a day, if you try to bang that night, problems may arise. Also, you train yourself to respond to an impossible, immediate-feedback handjob rather than the very different sensations provided by a (presumambly) non-telepathic partner. Making matters worse, many women are bad at sex, OR, more accurately, it often takes a practice round or two before sex is good with any given partner. Sadly, a lot.of folks don't understand that.
Oh, and there's also the purely.physiological keratinization of penile skin. But if circumcision is ok, I don't see the.objection to the lesser issue of jerking off a lot.
Dan Savage for years has advocated against the "death grip" form of masturbation.
Indeed. Habits can be hard to break, however.
This thread is a great example why people with non-adult kids should be declared temporarily insane and deprived of the right to vote until their kids reach adulthood.
When you talk about "what would young people do", people with no kids or with adult kids imagine younger themselves in the situation and think "Oh I did/I would manage".
People with non-adult kids imagine their kids in the situation and think "OMG OMG OMG MY LITTLE BILLY/CHARLIE/LISA/SUSAN NOOOOOOOO"
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 02:05:24 PM
I agree more sex positive education would be a good thing, though I wonder if our society is really ready for significant 'how to' education - considering how serious the hang-ups over sex are, particularly where teens are involved. :D
Oh agreed, we are not.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 02:05:24 PMI do think porn has the potential to make existing problems worse. Take for example the apparently common hetero male hang-up over penis size. If you already worried about that, you would worry about it a lot more if every naked guy you actually saw hard (that is, in porn - where else would a hetero guy see other guys with hard-ons?) sported a 12 inch schlong, right?
I don't know - I mean I am someone who grew up seeing large ones and did have the typical male (no need to qualify :)) hangup of worrying about size. I don't think that actually led to any issues though - like I didn't avoid sex out of embarrassment or fail to perform because I thought I was secretly being judged. And I know I'm just talking about myself, but do we have evidence that said concern leading to one of those two actions is on the rise? Besides, by the same token, the internet makes it very easy to find out the average male penis size by race, country, you name it. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 02:09:07 PM
People with non-adult kids imagine their kids in the situation and think "OMG OMG OMG MY LITTLE TYLER/ELSA/MACKENZIE/JACKSON NOOOOOOOO"
Corrected for 2014.
Plus the idea that all, most, or even more than 1% of porn features one in a million 12 inch dicks is a little exaggerated.
There's plenty of porn with average fellas, and if that's too much for.you, there's Japan. And I do.hope that isn't racist. :/
On a related note, porn teaches you about the clitoris, which is more important than dick size (generally) unless you're gay. In which case it's all dick size so you may as well get used to it.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 02:17:14 PM
In which case it's all dick size so you may as well get used to it.
:hmm:
:P
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 02:05:24 PM
I agree more sex positive education would be a good thing, though I wonder if our society is really ready for significant 'how to' education - considering how serious the hang-ups over sex are, particularly where teens are involved. :D
Oh agreed, we are not.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 02:05:24 PMI do think porn has the potential to make existing problems worse. Take for example the apparently common hetero male hang-up over penis size. If you already worried about that, you would worry about it a lot more if every naked guy you actually saw hard (that is, in porn - where else would a hetero guy see other guys with hard-ons?) sported a 12 inch schlong, right?
I don't know - I mean I am someone who grew up seeing large ones and did have the typical male (no need to qualify :)) hangup of worrying about size. I don't think that actually led to any issues though - like I didn't avoid sex out of embarrassment or fail to perform because I thought I was secretly being judged. And I know I'm just talking about myself, but do we have evidence that said concern leading to one of those two actions is on the rise? Besides, by the same token, the internet makes it very easy to find out the average male penis size by race, country, you name it. ;)
Well, the OP article claims that something called "porn induced erectile dysfunction" is on the rise, and also claims there are studies that show it - but I have not actually read any.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
Another thing I meant to mention a while back is that the ED isn't thought to be porn.induced as masturbation induced. (Researchers do differ somewhat.) Obviously if you're jerking.off 3 times a day, if you try to bang that night, problems may arise. Also, you train yourself to respond to an impossible, immediate-feedback handjob rather than the very different sensations provided by a (presumambly) non-telepathic partner. Making matters worse, many women are bad at sex, OR, more accurately, it often takes a practice round or two before sex is good with any given partner. Sadly, a lot.of folks don't understand that.
Oh, and there's also the purely.physiological keratinization of penile skin. But if circumcision is ok, I don't see the.objection to the lesser issue of jerking off a lot.
What the hell is going on with your . key? You need to get that fixed.
The OP article is shit.journalism, tho. I guess it's an opinion piece, but let's face it: most people that hate any genre of film usually have a shallow understanding of it.
However, you'll note that I never say things like New Hollywood caused the AIDS epidemic, because I recognize my distaste has caused a blind spot.
Quote from: sbr on November 24, 2014, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
Another thing I meant to mention a while back is that the ED isn't thought to be porn.induced as masturbation induced. (Researchers do differ somewhat.) Obviously if you're jerking.off 3 times a day, if you try to bang that night, problems may arise. Also, you train yourself to respond to an impossible, immediate-feedback handjob rather than the very different sensations provided by a (presumambly) non-telepathic partner. Making matters worse, many women are bad at sex, OR, more accurately, it often takes a practice round or two before sex is good with any given partner. Sadly, a lot.of folks don't understand that.
Oh, and there's also the purely.physiological keratinization of penile skin. But if circumcision is ok, I don't see the.objection to the lesser issue of jerking off a lot.
On my.phone at work.
...
..
.
:P
What the hell is going on with your . key? You need to get that fixed.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 24, 2014, 02:29:12 PM
The OP article is shit.journalism, tho. I guess it's an opinion piece, but let's face it: most people that hate any genre of film usually have a shallow understanding of it.
However, you'll note that I never say things like New Hollywood caused the AIDS epidemic, because I recognize my distaste has caused a blind spot.
Ide. have you been. using a vice. grip while posting the last. little. while.
If I used my work terminal to.post, what would I be watching porn on?
:D
There's an App for that.
On this screen? No one respects the cinema.:(
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2014, 01:54:59 PM
Well then maybe we should be more open about providing sex positive education to our kids / ending slut shaming. Btw, what you've described are issues that can and have impacted human sexual relations throughout time. Do porno vids actually make that worse?
I agree more sex positive education would be a good thing, though I wonder if our society is really ready for significant 'how to' education - considering how serious the hang-ups over sex are, particularly where teens are involved. :D
I do think porn has the potential to make existing problems worse. Take for example the apparently common hetero male hang-up over penis size. If you already worried about that, you would worry about it a lot more if every naked guy you actually saw hard (that is, in porn - where else would a hetero guy see other guys with hard-ons?) sported a 12 inch schlong, right?
Good point, I am glad I know that my own 9 inch schlong is not at all abnormal, despite what I see in pornos! Whew!
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
(1) The aforementioned lack of foreplay is the most serious;
I courteously disagree. As someone who enjoys a wide variety of F/F cinema, I can attest that there is a tremendous amount of the use of foreplay as a
bona fide storytelling and sex act device, one that is an important aspect of the overall love-making paradigm.
MADE BY WOMEN FOR WOMEN
MAH SCISSORS
:lol:
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 11:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 21, 2014, 09:11:43 PMBut unless you haven't looked into it--and there's no reason for you to have, I guess--the vast, vast majority of porn is regular old sex jazzed up with a cinematic presentation. Or at least the same kind of sex I've had with pretty much every partner I've ever had. (Only one had an objection to facials, but did swallow.)
I think your liking of facials are a good indication of how porn has influenced sex, since they're pretty much the definition of an porn-like act performed for the camera. That you have developed such an attachment to that act is, I'd wager, down to your consumption of porn.
Now, I'm not saying it's particularly unhealthy, but it's a good illustration of how that influences how people approach sex.
I don't think that it's beyond the pale to assume that other acts and the general attitudes shown in porn also influences attitudes, especially in young people (and I believe a few people in this thread have said studies support that assumption).
Also, I think your assertion that most porn is "just two people fucking" is a little blithe - you've got all kinds of racial fetishization, all kinds of dominance and submission, all kinds of humiliation porn, all kinds of class and race conflicts, hints at inappropriate ages etc etc.
It's not that any given one of those types of porn are inherently "bad" - what consenting adults get off to is their business, as are their fantasies - but the aggregate of all this stuff nonetheless creates the illusion that there are all these hot chicks out there just gagging for your cock exactly the way that gets you off.
I wouldn't be surprised if the rise of the MRA, incels, red pill, PUA and other assorted masculinist losers is at least partially down to the prevalence of porn - their view of women and sex seems pretty consistent with the way they're depicted in porn these days at least.
Jake, I think these are all or mostly all good points, and would like to discuss them further. Don't think I have time right now.
OK, Jake, so if I understand you correctly, are you saying that porn functions in some way like advertising, creating demand for hot sexually available women where none existed before? I think this is not very likely. I will accept the narrower possibility that it has generated higher interest in non-conventional ( :rolleyes: ) sexual practices like facials and anal. Though I still suspect strongly that facials are as old as oral sex, which is certainly as old as bathing, if not older than that.
If all you mean is that porn is a double-edged sword that makes the reality of sex seem less enticing, and can in some ways cause psychic harm (in a "where's my 110 lb. pneumatic blonde?" sort of way), I may concede the point, but I've found simply being alive in the world does that and far more fiercely than motion picture fictions have ever done. The multifactorial development of an anti-feminist/masculinist/sad person camp is correlated with the rise of porn... but as a causal factor? I doubt it. I think the shared causal factor is the Internet.
Regarding your specific issues with "regular old fucking," I concede there is a definite tilt toward ephebophilic tastes, which I do not find definitionally inappropriate (we could have a whole discussion about whether 32 year olds "should" find 18 year olds attractive), but can verge into weird areas. Regarding racial fetishization, the biggest example is black dicks/white chicks stuff, which I don't bother with because I'm Caucasian (even if that is, bizarrely, the target audience), but obviously the stuff exists and can be problematic. As for the "Asian" or "Latina" or "Arab" or whatever labels on porn, the most "problematic" thing is that American porn doesn't feel the need to label anything "white," which is merely a function of our racial makeup (one day, that might change). That is simply a categorization tool to help people find the phenotype they're looking for--it is no more definitionally insidious than blonde/brunette/redhead distinctions (which in fact do somewhat function as a "white" category).
DS stuff? DS is a wide spectrum. Usually one party or the other is "directing" the action, if invisibly so. So you'd have to be more specific.
Class/exploitation and humilitation stuff exists, can't argue with that.