http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress
QuoteYesterday the European Space Agency landed the Philae spacecraft on a comet, a powerful step forward for humanity and science alike. However, slightly before the big moment, coverage of the event reminded us how much progress remains to be accomplished back on Earth.
A number of the scientists involved on this incredible project were interviewed in the hours leading to contact by Nature Newsteam. One of those Rosetta scientists was Matt Taylor, who chose to dress, for this special occasion, in a bowling shirt covered in scantly clad caricatures of sexy women in provocative poses.
"This is going to be a very long day but a very exciting day," said Taylor. "I think everyone should enjoy it because we're making history."
"I MADE A BIG MISTAKE AND I OFFENDED MANY PEOPLE"
No one knows why Taylor chose to wear that shirt on television during a massive scientific mission. From what we can tell, a woman who goes by the name of Elly Prizeman on Twitter made the shirt for him, and is just as bewildered as he must be that anyone might be upset about her creation. Taylor apologized on Friday during a live ESA broadcast for wearing the shirt, stating that "the shirt I wore this week... I made a big mistake and I offended many people, and I'm very sorry about this." Still, Taylor's personal apology doesn't make up for the fact that no one at ESA saw fit to stop him from representing the Space community with clothing that demeans 50 percent of the world's population. No one asked him to take it off, because presumably they didn't think about it. It wasn't worth worrying about.
Discover
This is the sort of casual misogyny that stops women from entering certain scientific fields. They see a guy like that on TV and they don't feel welcome. They see a poster of greased up women in a colleague's office and they know they aren't respected. They hear comments about "bitches" while out at a bar with fellow science students, and they decide to change majors. And those are the women who actually make it that far. Those are the few who persevered even when they were discouraged from pursuing degrees in physics, chemistry, and math throughout high school. These are the women who forged on despite the fact that they were told by elementary school classmates and the media at large that girls who like science are nerdy and unattractive. This is the climate women who dream of working at NASA or the ESA come up against, every single day. This shirt is representative of all of that, and the ESA has yet to issue a statement or apologize for that.
The Atlantic journalist Rose Eveleth brilliantly captures what that shirt represents in a community that continues to struggle, if not outright fail, to respect women.
Women. :rolleyes:
That shirt is going to deter women from going into engineering, plus something something rape culture.
#shirtmisoygny
That shirt was the reason Ide didn't go into engineering.
:mad:
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
Man hater.
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
You can get a tie with nekkid ladies on it. :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on November 14, 2014, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
You can get a tie with nekkid ladies on it. :hmm:
No ties with pictures on them! :mad:
Solid, striped, or patterned only!
I'll do my next video wearing a blouse with sexy men on to rebalance the universe.
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:34:58 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 14, 2014, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
You can get a tie with nekkid ladies on it. :hmm:
No ties with pictures on them! :mad:
Solid, striped, or patterned only!
Naked ladies can form the pattern. It will look like one of Warhol's works.
I'm not taking fashion advice from a....Canadian
Quote from: Brazen on November 14, 2014, 11:36:23 AM
I'll do my next video wearing a blouse with sexy men on to rebalance the universe.
We will hold you to that promise!
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
:huh: Why is it a "man up" to tie a noose around one's neck?
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 11:59:53 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
:huh: Why is it a "man up" to tie a noose around one's neck?
Think of it more like a colourful arrow helpfully pointing to one's genitals.
Performs a similar function as the decoration on a baboon's ass. :D
Where can I get that shirt? It looks so sharp.
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 14, 2014, 12:11:22 PM
Where can I get that shirt? It looks so sharp.
Quote from: From the Original Post in this threadFrom what we can tell, a woman who goes by the name of Elly Prizeman on Twitter made the shirt for him
A quick google search leads to this twitter post: https://twitter.com/ellypriZeMaN/status/532927131098300416 - so, make a twitter account and ask her, I guess?
... but in the replies, there's a tweet that links to this: http://www.alohaland.com/whats-new/new-gunner-girls
Ordered.
And they have kid sizes!! :punk:
And 7XL for the fatties. No fat chicks.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 14, 2014, 12:24:27 PM
Ordered.
Now all you have to do is be the lead scientist on a ground breaking space exploration project, and you're set.
Quote from: Jacob on November 14, 2014, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 14, 2014, 12:24:27 PM
Ordered.
Now all you have to do is be the lead scientist on a ground breaking space exploration project, and you're set.
Well, then he has to find some overly-sensitive tit to get offended by his shirt and
then he's set.
I'm sure he can figure out an alternative way to get in front of a camera. Perhaps a reality show. :hmm:
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
Wait, so that shirt goes with a tie?
Quote from: derspiess on November 14, 2014, 12:25:33 PM
And they have kid sizes!! :punk:
Meh, under their category for "Asian Flair", there are no prints of almond-eyed honeys in bondage. Weak.
QuoteThis is the sort of casual misogyny that stops women from entering certain scientific fields. They see a guy like that on TV and they don't feel welcome. They see a poster of greased up women in a colleague's office and they know they aren't respected. They hear comments about "bitches" while out at a bar with fellow science students, and they decide to change majors. And those are the women who actually make it that far. Those are the few who persevered even when they were discouraged from pursuing degrees in physics, chemistry, and math throughout high school. These are the women who forged on despite the fact that they were told by elementary school classmates and the media at large that girls who like science are nerdy and unattractive. This is the climate women who dream of working at NASA or the ESA come up against, every single day. This shirt is representative of all of that, and the ESA has yet to issue a statement or apologize for that.
What the hell? I mean yeah I get that there are some bad dudes out there but women come up against men wearing lewd women on their shirts, calling them bitches, and have dirty pictures in their offices every single day and in every single location in all of STEM? And this never happens in banking or journalism or any other field so they are compelled to leave? At UT Austin I see the University working hard to get women IN those fields. I see semiconductor companies across Austin doing extensive community outreach to try to get girls into STEM. Maybe Texas is super advanced compared to the rest of the Western World? Granted I live in a bubble but the constant daily harassment and negative attitudes seem hard to believe. I can see it happening from time to time but...
and when was the last time a scientist appeared on TV wearing a dirty shirt and somehow this is typical and happens every day? No other man from any other field in history has ever worn an inappropriate shirt this only happens in STEM?
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 12:46:10 PM
Well, then he has to find some overly-sensitive tit to get offended by his shirt and then he's set.
I don't think that will be a challenge.
Quote from: Valmy on November 14, 2014, 01:18:47 PM
What the hell? I mean yeah I get that there are some bad dudes out there but women come up against men wearing lewd women on their shirts, calling them bitches, and have dirty pictures in their offices every single day and in every single location in all of STEM? And this never happens in banking or journalism or any other field so they are compelled to leave? At UT Austin I see the University working hard to get women IN those fields. I see semiconductor companies across Austin doing extensive community outreach to try to get girls into STEM. Maybe Texas is super advanced compared to the rest of the Western World? Granted I live in a bubble but the constant daily harassment and negative attitudes seem hard to believe. I can see it happening from time to time but...
and when was the last time a scientist appeared on TV wearing a dirty shirt and somehow this is typical and happens every day? No other man from any other field in history has ever worn an inappropriate shirt this only happens in STEM?
Perhaps all this proactive outreach you encounter is intended to counter that trend?
It doesn't seem a particularly difficult concept that sexist paraphernalia is an expression of a boys club atmosphere that is unwelcoming to women, and that outreach programs exist to counter that atmosphere. Thus a sexist, unwelcoming atmosphere can coexist with programs intended to encourage women.
I mean, I don't have any particular insight into what it's like in rocket science or engineering and so on, so maybe that's not the case there - but I don't find the notion confusing.
Is this the guy with the copious colour tattoos on his legs, including one of the spacecraft?
Men's contribution to society: build space ships that land on comets. Feminist's contribution to society: complain about a shirt.
Quote from: Legbiter on November 14, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
Men's contribution to society: build space ships that land on comets. Feminist's contribution to society: complain about a shirt.
Seems like comparison contains a category error.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 14, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
He's dressed pretty much like professional scientists always dress. Being a slob is part of the image.
Offending shirt in question. :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7cxBJbB.png%3F1&hash=0aa85b826af79e22b97c7b42d8bd9fa746ba1274)
Even astrophysiscists are getting full sleeve tattoos now.
Quote from: Valmy on November 14, 2014, 01:18:47 PM
QuoteThis is the sort of casual misogyny that stops women from entering certain scientific fields. They see a guy like that on TV and they don't feel welcome. They see a poster of greased up women in a colleague's office and they know they aren't respected. They hear comments about "bitches" while out at a bar with fellow science students, and they decide to change majors. And those are the women who actually make it that far. Those are the few who persevered even when they were discouraged from pursuing degrees in physics, chemistry, and math throughout high school. These are the women who forged on despite the fact that they were told by elementary school classmates and the media at large that girls who like science are nerdy and unattractive. This is the climate women who dream of working at NASA or the ESA come up against, every single day. This shirt is representative of all of that, and the ESA has yet to issue a statement or apologize for that.
What the hell? I mean yeah I get that there are some bad dudes out there but women come up against men wearing lewd women on their shirts, calling them bitches, and have dirty pictures in their offices every single day and in every single location in all of STEM? And this never happens in banking or journalism or any other field so they are compelled to leave? At UT Austin I see the University working hard to get women IN those fields. I see semiconductor companies across Austin doing extensive community outreach to try to get girls into STEM. Maybe Texas is super advanced compared to the rest of the Western World? Granted I live in a bubble but the constant daily harassment and negative attitudes seem hard to believe. I can see it happening from time to time but...
and when was the last time a scientist appeared on TV wearing a dirty shirt and somehow this is typical and happens every day? No other man from any other field in history has ever worn an inappropriate shirt this only happens in STEM?
This article is clickbait. Yeah, the scientist-dude was dressed inappropriately to appear in the mainstream media (and no one in the media was willing to point that out to him), but so what? To turn a stupid-looking shirt into the guy talking about "bitches' in a bar is the height of journalistic bullshit (in other words, the very thing you would expect from some random internet dude who writes for a web page called "the Verge").
Take a chill pill. Both of the people who regularly read "the Verge" thought that this was bullshit hyperbole. STEM is safe from bad taste in shirts.
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 02:34:56 PMThis article is clickbait.
Nailed it by the looks of it.
This is very cool! Congrats to the Euro team doing it, and I hope they can get some good info from this. :yeah:
Heh, lol about the guy with the nerd shirt. Give him a break. He just landed a space craft on a comet! He's been locked up in the mission control for months and this is his only way to see any scantily clad women!
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 14, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
He's dressed pretty much like professional scientists always dress. Being a slob is part of the image.
And it's wrong! :mad:
Its not so much that he didnt have the sense to wear something else. Its that he had that thing made specifically for him.
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 14, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
He's dressed pretty much like professional scientists always dress. Being a slob is part of the image.
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
Most people with interesting things to do can spare some time to think about how they are dressed when they are going to appear on TV.
He needs a mullet to complete the image that he can save the world. ;)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 14, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who was offended more by that than the design on the shirt. :D
Obligatory Languish-tailored response: Also, how does the author ever drive a car, since every good ol' boy with the naked lady silhouette decal stuck to their F-150 obviously sends them into fits of road rage?
I don't wear a shirt at work. My flesh is kept warm by a layer of fat.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
Most people with interesting things to do can spare some time to think about how they are dressed when they are going to appear on TV.
Most people can, but some don't need to.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
Most people with interesting things to do can spare some time to think about how they are dressed when they are going to appear on TV.
That's my point; you want to be a slob at work, that's fine, but if you're going to present yourself on television at least dress appropriately. You're not just representing yourself, you're representing the program. Follow the Bull Durham rule.
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:49:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
Most people with interesting things to do can spare some time to think about how they are dressed when they are going to appear on TV.
Most people can, but some don't need to.
Doesnt apply to this guy though. This wasnt about him. Nobody actually cares about him. This was about the project he is representing.
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 14, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
He's dressed pretty much like professional scientists always dress. Being a slob is part of the image.
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
But that's the thing about wearing a shirt and tie - you DON'T have to think about it.
On the other hand, it seems like this guy gave a lot of thought into buying that particular shirt. :hmm:
If it was really designed by his twitter friend, he was probably trying to do her a favor by wearing it on TV.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 05:29:45 PM
If it was really designed by his twitter friend, he was probably trying to do her a favor by wearing it on TV.
Probably worked too.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 14, 2014, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 05:29:45 PM
If it was really designed by his twitter friend, he was probably trying to do her a favor by wearing it on TV.
Probably worked too.
Yeah, people from all over will now know who to contact if they want to look like an idiot on TV.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 14, 2014, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 05:29:45 PM
If it was really designed by his twitter friend, he was probably trying to do her a favor by wearing it on TV.
Probably worked too.
Nah, no one would notice.
He's better than 99.9% of the people who show up on TV, just by having something interesting to say. What he wears really doesn't matter.
Hey Ed the scientist just got served with social justice.
QuoteRosetta mission scientist Dr Matt Taylor cries during apology over 'offensive' shirt
Rosetta scientist Dr Matt Taylor breaks down as he says he made "a big mistake" by wearing a shirt during the mission's live stream featuring cartoon images of women wearing bondage gear and firing guns
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html)
WHORE PILLS ON THE HOUSE GIRLS
Quote from: Legbiter on November 14, 2014, 07:07:24 PM
Hey Ed the scientist just got served with social justice.
QuoteRosetta mission scientist Dr Matt Taylor cries during apology over 'offensive' shirt
Rosetta scientist Dr Matt Taylor breaks down as he says he made "a big mistake" by wearing a shirt during the mission's live stream featuring cartoon images of women wearing bondage gear and firing guns
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html)
What the crap, dude. Pull yourself together.
Quote from: Legbiter on November 14, 2014, 07:07:24 PM
Hey Ed the scientist just got served with social justice.
QuoteRosetta mission scientist Dr Matt Taylor cries during apology over 'offensive' shirt
Rosetta scientist Dr Matt Taylor breaks down as he says he made "a big mistake" by wearing a shirt during the mission's live stream featuring cartoon images of women wearing bondage gear and firing guns
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html)
Take his man card away.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bryanallain.com%2Fimages%2Fmancard.jpg&hash=d8df83b72eb5dfb44cca292d72eb2ed34bf2eb42)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 07:08:47 PMWhat the crap, dude. Pull yourself together.
Wouldn't be surprised if he had to beg and grovel for his job. :)
Got a chuckle out of the very English reactions. :D
Quote from: frunk on November 14, 2014, 06:12:20 PM
He's better than 99.9% of the people who show up on TV, just by having something interesting to say. What he wears really doesn't matter.
The triumph of style over substance?
Has anyone asked if his female colleagues minded? For all we know, that shirt could have been a big in-joke.
Quote from: Warspite on November 14, 2014, 07:36:44 PM
Has anyone asked if his female colleagues minded? For all we know, that shirt could have been a big in-joke.
Now, now, best not get in way of a #TwitteratiHueAndCry. :P
Quote from: Legbiter on November 14, 2014, 07:07:24 PM
Hey Ed the scientist just got served with social justice.
QuoteRosetta mission scientist Dr Matt Taylor cries during apology over 'offensive' shirt
Rosetta scientist Dr Matt Taylor breaks down as he says he made "a big mistake" by wearing a shirt during the mission's live stream featuring cartoon images of women wearing bondage gear and firing guns
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/rosetta-mission-scientist-dr-matt-taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt-30745378.html)
Bigger question, which is more professional...the aforementioned shirt, or the hoodie?
I don't know, but the crying is the least professional thing so far.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 08:15:16 PM
I don't know, but the crying is the least professional thing so far.
Not if it saved him his job and prospects.
Quote from: Camerus on November 14, 2014, 08:20:58 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 08:15:16 PM
I don't know, but the crying is the least professional thing so far.
Not if it saved him his job and prospects.
He shouldn't need to grovel--he's got actual accomplishments in his field to point to.
Granted, I don't expect very many people here to be able to relate to that.
Quote from: dps on November 14, 2014, 09:00:44 PM
Granted, I don't expect very many people here to be able to relate to that.
Agreed. It is very hard to related to someone who has actual accomplishments and still act like such an idiot.
Quote from: dps on November 14, 2014, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Camerus on November 14, 2014, 08:20:58 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 14, 2014, 08:15:16 PM
I don't know, but the crying is the least professional thing so far.
Not if it saved him his job and prospects.
He shouldn't need to grovel--he's got actual accomplishments in his field to point to.
Granted, I don't expect very many people here to be able to relate to that.
Nice one. Except there are all kinds of examples of accomplished people who've issued groveling apologies.
No good ones. That guy did everything exactly wrong. You can't blame him though, he's a scientist. He's out of his depth being under fire from the internet mafia. My instinct says laugh it off and tell people where they can buy a shirt like that.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 04:13:20 PM
Doesnt apply to this guy though. This wasnt about him. Nobody actually cares about him. This was about the project he is representing.
Doesn't escape my point that the clothes have zero relevance.
You can worry about clothes or you can worry about important stuff like whether you're doing your job or whether your product will work as intended.
Quote from: Maximus on November 15, 2014, 02:10:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 04:13:20 PM
Doesnt apply to this guy though. This wasnt about him. Nobody actually cares about him. This was about the project he is representing.
Doesn't escape my point that the clothes have zero relevance.
You can worry about clothes or you can worry about important stuff like whether you're doing your job or whether your product will work as intended.
I think you can actually worry about both. It doesn't take much time to put on some reasonable clothes, and the idea that somehow that decision, which takes all of 15 seconds, is interfering with his high minded scientisting is a bit silly.
And when you show up on national TV, part of your job is representing yourself, your company, and even your profession.
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 05:17:38 PM
Quote from: Maximus on November 14, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 14, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 14, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
No shit. Be a fucking professional.
He's dressed pretty much like professional scientists always dress. Being a slob is part of the image.
I'm guessing he, like most scientists, actually has interesting things to do and so doesn't have to spend time worrying about how he's dressed.
But that's the thing about wearing a shirt and tie - you DON'T have to think about it.
On the other hand, it seems like this guy gave a lot of thought into buying that particular shirt. :hmm:
Twitter post says she made it for his birthday. He probably didn't pay anything for it.
Quote from: Warspite on November 14, 2014, 07:36:44 PM
Has anyone asked if his female colleagues minded? For all we know, that shirt could have been a big in-joke.
Who cares about his female colleagues? This is about what some bitch on an internet blog thinks.
Quote from: Berkut on November 15, 2014, 03:21:08 AM
I think you can actually worry about both. It doesn't take much time to put on some reasonable clothes, and the idea that somehow that decision, which takes all of 15 seconds, is interfering with his high minded scientisting is a bit silly.
And when you show up on national TV, part of your job is representing yourself, your company, and even your profession.
There have been interesting studies done on mental bandwidth, and it seems to indicate that there is a real upper limit on how much we can process/think about at a given time. We can get good at things so that they take up less bandwidth, but the amount of bandwidth we have is capped. Worrying/thinking about one thing will mean something else won't be getting attention, and nobody can truly multi-task at all well. This feeds into the classic absent minded professor stereotype. I'm guessing this guy never even thought about "what do you wear on TV", so it probably would take a fair bit of bandwidth to even start. Personally I'm happy there are people who don't waste their time thinking about stupid crap like that.
Quote from: Martinus on November 15, 2014, 04:17:42 AM
Quote from: Warspite on November 14, 2014, 07:36:44 PM
Has anyone asked if his female colleagues minded? For all we know, that shirt could have been a big in-joke.
Who cares about his female colleagues? This is about what some bitch on an internet blog thinks.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
From now on I shall comment solely on the outfits worn by female scientists on TV, not on what they have to say. :)
Quote from: Berkut on November 15, 2014, 03:21:08 AM
I think you can actually worry about both. It doesn't take much time to put on some reasonable clothes, and the idea that somehow that decision, which takes all of 15 seconds, is interfering with his high minded scientisting is a bit silly.
And when you show up on national TV, part of your job is representing yourself, your company, and even your profession.
:yes: Especially when the organization you represent is funded by the public, which is notoriously fickle on providing funds when employee behavior is considered "inappropriate."
Should this guy's shirt have mattered? No. Will it matter when the SJWs start talking about finding ways to withdraw funding for the organization? Absolutely.
Quote from: The Brain on November 15, 2014, 07:17:20 AM
From now on I shall comment solely on the outfits worn by female scientists on TV, not on what they have to say. :)
Shoot, Ed and Seedy have been doing that for years now. Late.
Quote from: Barrister on November 14, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
Forget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
Exactly.
Christ :bleeding:
QuoteIts not so much that he didnt have the sense to wear something else. Its that he had that thing made specifically for him.
For his birthday by a female friend who's into the rockabilly style. She was apparently rather touched that he wore that shirt on the biggest day of his career. Which seems a shame.
A shame that could've been avoided with a conservative dress code :)
"Man up" = terrible phrase.
You people don't know how to manage tone, like, at all.
Not like me.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 15, 2014, 10:54:30 AM
"Man up" = terrible phrase.
There are proper uses for the phrase. Telling somebody to put a noose around their neck is not one of them.
I'm not going to go into a huge gender studies exegesis of why it's kind of awful, as it's be sort of self-evident. I understand the sentiment, though, and the sentiment is valuable. But we already had a phrase for it, though. "Grow up."
"Grow up" is not suitable for saying to a man who's acting like a woman though. :P
Actually, I don't think I've ever used the phrase myself and been annoyed with it occasionally in tv/movies. /shrug
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 15, 2014, 11:08:02 AM
"Grow up" is not suitable for saying to a man who's acting like a woman though. :P
:lol:
QuoteActually, I don't think I've ever used the phrase myself and been annoyed with it occasionally in tv/movies. /shrug
I'm probably just as annoyed with its overuse. See also: "It is what it is." Ugh.
You're telling us it isn't?
Quote from: Ideologue on November 15, 2014, 11:01:28 AM
I'm not going to go into a huge gender studies exegesis of why it's kind of awful, as it's be sort of self-evident. I understand the sentiment, though, and the sentiment is valuable. But we already had a phrase for it, though. "Grow up."
In terms of possibly sexist phrases, I'll miss 'big girl's blouse' most of all :cry:
Yeah, I'm on the side of the, "You should dress professionally" guys. I know dress shirts and ties are going out of fashion, but there should be some standards. Not a fan of the tattoos either, or any tattoos.
Bullying him to tears seems to have backfired for the SJW's/feminists. :hmm: :)
QuoteBetter not to land a spaceship on a comet than let men wear sexist clothing.
So how are things going for feminism? Well, last week they took one of the great achievements of human history -- landing a probe from Earth on a comet hundreds of millions of miles away -- and made it all about the clothes.
Yes, that's right. After years of effort, the European Space Agency's lander Philae landed on a comet 300 million miles away. At first, people were excited. Then some women noticed that one of the space scientists, Matt Taylor, was wearing a shirt, made for him by a female "close pal," featuring comic-book depictions of semi-naked women. And suddenly, the triumph of the comet landing was drowned out by shouts of feminist outrage about . . . what people were wearing. It was one small shirt for a man, one giant leap backward for womankind.
The Atlantic's Rose Eveleth tweeted, "No no women are toooootally welcome in our community, just ask the dude in this shirt." Astrophysicist Katie Mack commented: "I don't care what scientists wear. But a shirt featuring women in lingerie isn't appropriate for a broadcast if you care about women in STEM." And from there, the online feminist lynch mob took off until Taylor was forced to deliver a tearful apology on-camera.
It seems to me that if you care about women in STEM, maybe you shouldn't want to communicate the notion that they're so delicate that they can't handle pictures of comic-book women. Will we stock our Mars spacecraft with fainting-couches?
Not everyone was so censorious. As one female space professional wrote: "Don't these women and their male cohorts understand that *they* are doing the damage to what/whom they claim to defend!?"
No, they don't. Or, if they do, their reservations are overcome by the desire to feel important and powerful at others' expense. Thus what should have been the greatest day in a man's life -- accomplishing something never before done in the history of humanity -- was instead derailed by people with their own axes to grind. As Chloe Price observed: "Imagine the ...storm if the scientist had been a woman and everyone focused solely on her clothes and not her achievements."
Yes, feminists have been telling us for years that women can wear whatever they want, and for men to comment in any way is sexism. But that's obviously a double standard, since they evidently feel no compunction whatsoever in criticizing what men wear. News flash: Geeks don't dress like Don Draper
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/11/15/shirt-comet-girls-feminism-column/19083607/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/11/15/shirt-comet-girls-feminism-column/19083607/)
Quote from: The Brain on November 15, 2014, 07:17:20 AM
From now on I shall comment solely on the outfits worn by female scientists on TV, not on what they have to say. :)
:D
Quote from: Maximus on November 15, 2014, 02:10:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 04:13:20 PM
Doesnt apply to this guy though. This wasnt about him. Nobody actually cares about him. This was about the project he is representing.
Doesn't escape my point that the clothes have zero relevance.
You can worry about clothes or you can worry about important stuff like whether you're doing your job or whether your product will work as intended.
Then I dont understand your point. Part of doing his job was appearing on TV to explain to the world what what was happening. When he did that he wasnt just speaking for himself. If he was just speaking for himself he would not have been on TV. As a representative of the project he should have had a basic level of professionalism to properly represent the project even if he is a person who ordinarily cant think about more than one thing at a time.
Quote from: frunk on November 15, 2014, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 15, 2014, 03:21:08 AM
I think you can actually worry about both. It doesn't take much time to put on some reasonable clothes, and the idea that somehow that decision, which takes all of 15 seconds, is interfering with his high minded scientisting is a bit silly.
And when you show up on national TV, part of your job is representing yourself, your company, and even your profession.
There have been interesting studies done on mental bandwidth, and it seems to indicate that there is a real upper limit on how much we can process/think about at a given time. We can get good at things so that they take up less bandwidth, but the amount of bandwidth we have is capped. Worrying/thinking about one thing will mean something else won't be getting attention, and nobody can truly multi-task at all well. This feeds into the classic absent minded professor stereotype. I'm guessing this guy never even thought about "what do you wear on TV", so it probably would take a fair bit of bandwidth to even start. Personally I'm happy there are people who don't waste their time thinking about stupid crap like that.
It takes mental bandwidth to dress? Thank goodness he actually had clothes on then.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 06:56:48 PM
Part of doing his job was appearing on TV to explain to the world what what was happening. When he did that he wasnt just speaking for himself. If he was just speaking for himself he would not have been on TV. As a representative of the project he should have had a basic level of professionalism to properly represent the project even if he is a person who ordinarily cant think about more than one thing at a time.
Losing cause, CC. You're not going to get anywhere with this crowd regarding basic rules of dressing professionally when it comes to representing something other than themselves. Most Languishites only have one pair of flip-flops, in a neutral color suitable for weddings, funerals and job interviews.
The formal nose ring.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 06:56:48 PM
Quote from: Maximus on November 15, 2014, 02:10:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 14, 2014, 04:13:20 PM
Doesnt apply to this guy though. This wasnt about him. Nobody actually cares about him. This was about the project he is representing.
Doesn't escape my point that the clothes have zero relevance.
You can worry about clothes or you can worry about important stuff like whether you're doing your job or whether your product will work as intended.
Then I dont understand your point. Part of doing his job was appearing on TV to explain to the world what what was happening. When he did that he wasnt just speaking for himself. If he was just speaking for himself he would not have been on TV. As a representative of the project he should have had a basic level of professionalism to properly represent the project even if he is a person who ordinarily cant think about more than one thing at a time.
He's a scientist, not a lawyer or school administrator or the manager of your local Walmart. "Professionalism" for him isn't the same thing as it is for you.
They should have hired some PR people to do the publicity stuff.
I can't believe it is that hard to not wear a shirt with nekkid women on it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 06:58:01 PM
It takes mental bandwidth to dress? Thank goodness he actually had clothes on then.
Everything you do takes mental bandwidth. Very little gets done with muscle memory alone.
Quote from: frunk on November 15, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 06:58:01 PM
It takes mental bandwidth to dress? Thank goodness he actually had clothes on then.
Everything you do takes mental bandwidth. Very little gets done with muscle memory alone.
Yeah, like eating (he managed to keep himself fed); getting to work (somehow his one track mind managed that) and it looks like he even managed to shower and groom himself now and then. Is it too much to ask that he manage to dress himself properly or is he really that mentally compromised.
He apparently ran out of mental bandwidth thinking about arm sleeve tatoos and naked comic book chick shirts, and just didn't have enough to close the loop with "Maybe I could wear something to cover these infantile tatoos and maybe that can be something without naked women on it".
But we can all be thankful he was able to divert enough from landing spaceships on comets to get the tatoos and shirt done at least.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 08:38:37 PM
Yeah, like eating (he managed to keep himself fed); getting to work (somehow his one track mind managed that) and it looks like he even managed to shower and groom himself now and then. Is it too much to ask that he manage to dress himself properly or is he really that mentally compromised.
He was dressed properly. He just wasn't dressed to your arbitrary standards.
Is the argument that he was dressed inappropriately because he was not wearing a suit and a tie, or that he was dressed inappropriately because he had pictures of half-naked women on his shirt? These seem to me like two completely different issues.
Quote from: Martinus on November 16, 2014, 01:19:09 PM
Is the argument that he was dressed inappropriately because he was not wearing a suit and a tie, or that he was dressed inappropriately because he had pictures of half-naked women on his shirt? These seem to me like two completely different issues.
The feminists who were complaining about it were complaining about his wearing of a shirt with pictures of scantily-clad women on it. The Jerks of Languish(tm) are complaining that he should have worn a suit and tie.
I think gratuitous semi-naked chick imagery are inappropriate in the workplace, and that their casual acceptance can contribute to a hostile environment. So I (to the surprise of few here, I'm sure) stand with the feminists on this.
That said, the dude wearing that shirt is not the biggest deal in the world, though the high profile of the media coverage did make it a bigger deal than it otherwise would have been. My take on the guy is that he's probably into some sort of rockabilly/ hot-rod/ psychobilly scene where cheesecake pin-up imagery is part of the scene, and he just didn't think about it.
In short, I think it's legit to complain about the shirt in the context it was worn, but I don't hold it against the guy particularly harshly.
As for wearing a suit and tie - I don't think that's necessary (much as I like them), though having that as a default would have avoiding the guy embarrassing himself like that.
He's a nerd who's primary job is to do science stuff, not talk to the press. The shirt in question is not one he wears regularly around female coworkers; it's a celebration shirt.
The appropriate response is a chuckle about tackiness and bad taste, not screeching and pillorying.
And the women on it aren't very hott.
Quote from: Jacob on November 16, 2014, 01:44:56 PM
As for wearing a suit and tie - I don't think that's necessary (much as I like them), though having that as a default would have avoiding the guy embarrassing himself like that.
I'm not saying they're linked. But the decline of the West does seem to be coincidental with the rise of casual workplaces. I'm just raising that.
Also you're right in general a suit is a great way to avoid embarrassment (unless it's a bad suit), but I once had a job interview at a media firm and went in my usual suit-tie look. It was like walking in naked the looks I got :weep:
Quote from: Maximus on November 16, 2014, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 08:38:37 PM
Yeah, like eating (he managed to keep himself fed); getting to work (somehow his one track mind managed that) and it looks like he even managed to shower and groom himself now and then. Is it too much to ask that he manage to dress himself properly or is he really that mentally compromised.
He was dressed properly. He just wasn't dressed to your arbitrary standards.
:lmfao:
If you think its my arbitrary standard, you need to get out a bit more. ;)
QuoteIt seems to me that if you care about women in STEM
I can't tell if it's progressive or not that the concept gives me an erection.
Quote from: Jacob on November 16, 2014, 01:44:56 PM
As for wearing a suit and tie - I don't think that's necessary (much as I like them), though having that as a default would have avoiding the guy embarrassing himself like that.
Suits and ties are a fuckload more identified with the patriarchy than some dumbassed shirt.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 16, 2014, 03:25:59 PM
Suits and ties are a fuckload more identified with the patriarchy than some dumbassed shirt.
The shirt is presumably more comfortable though.
Also true.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 02:31:16 PM
He's a nerd who's primary job is to do science stuff, not talk to the press. The shirt in question is not one he wears regularly around female coworkers; it's a celebration shirt.
The appropriate response is a chuckle about tackiness and bad taste, not screeching and pillorying.
And the women on it aren't very hott.
I agree with this, except that I think screeching is fine (though not pillorying).
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 03:21:10 PM
:lmfao:
If you think its my arbitrary standard, you need to get out a bit more. ;)
:lmfao:
That wasn't a singular "you".
To me, it is quite sexist to judge a man not on his intellectual achievements, but on the clothes he wears.
Naw, just narrowminded.
I have so much power running through my veins...
Quote from: Maximus on November 16, 2014, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 08:38:37 PM
Yeah, like eating (he managed to keep himself fed); getting to work (somehow his one track mind managed that) and it looks like he even managed to shower and groom himself now and then. Is it too much to ask that he manage to dress himself properly or is he really that mentally compromised.
He was dressed properly. He just wasn't dressed to your arbitrary standards.
What are your arbitrary standards?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 08:38:37 PM
Yeah, like eating (he managed to keep himself fed); getting to work (somehow his one track mind managed that) and it looks like he even managed to shower and groom himself now and then. Is it too much to ask that he manage to dress himself properly or is he really that mentally compromised.
It's a matter of what you pay attention to. Before he ever thought that he would have to dress differently for TV he'd have to realize that there are actually people who care about how you dress. Even worse, a lot of these people with nothing better to do watch TV. Eating, getting to work, wearing clothes is a more common experience.
Quote from: Maximus on November 16, 2014, 04:24:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 03:21:10 PM
:lmfao:
If you think its my arbitrary standard, you need to get out a bit more. ;)
:lmfao:
That wasn't a singular "you".
If society has a view that it is inappropriate and unprofessional for someone to wear a shirt with naked women at work and particularly when being interviewed on behalf of an entire organization that is, by definition, not arbitrary. That is called a societal norm.
I note you have now deviated from your original argument. You had argued that he didnt have enough brain power left over to realize he was being daft. Now you seem to be arguing that the standard to which he is being held is inappropriate.
Your argument is getting worse.
What is all this emo bullshit about space, anyway.
Quote from: frunk on November 16, 2014, 06:00:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 15, 2014, 08:38:37 PM
Yeah, like eating (he managed to keep himself fed); getting to work (somehow his one track mind managed that) and it looks like he even managed to shower and groom himself now and then. Is it too much to ask that he manage to dress himself properly or is he really that mentally compromised.
It's a matter of what you pay attention to. Before he ever thought that he would have to dress differently for TV he'd have to realize that there are actually people who care about how you dress. Even worse, a lot of these people with nothing better to do watch TV. Eating, getting to work, wearing clothes is a more common experience.
Agreed it is a matter of what you pay attention to. What you have wrong in your assumptions is he did dress differently for that day. According to reports this was a special shirt that he didnt normally wear. So what we have is a guy who was dressing for a special day. Perhaps the most special day in his whole professional life. And he said to himself "yeah, the one with the naked women. That's that trick".
Has this story really passed so far from fact that now the "truth" is that there were naked women on the shirt? I mean, wasn't the whole point that people saw the shirt? It didn't have naked women on it, everyone knows it, so why are people now arguing that the problem was that the shirt was "the one with the naked women?" Everyone knows it's a lie when they argue that, so why continue to utter the lie? Lack of intellectual integrity? Laziness? Love of bullshit rhetoric? All of the above?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 06:23:50 PM
You had argued that he didnt have enough brain power left over to realize he was being daft.
Can you show me where I argued this?
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
Quote from: grumbler on November 16, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Has this story really passed so far from fact that now the "truth" is that there were naked women on the shirt? I mean, wasn't the whole point that people saw the shirt? It didn't have naked women on it, everyone knows it, so why are people now arguing that the problem was that the shirt was "the one with the naked women?" Everyone knows it's a lie when they argue that, so why continue to utter the lie? Lack of intellectual integrity? Laziness? Love of bullshit rhetoric? All of the above?
You have sunk to a new low of torturing a definition to make a pedantic argument.
Quote from: Maximus on November 16, 2014, 08:12:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 06:23:50 PM
You had argued that he didnt have enough brain power left over to realize he was being daft.
Can you show me where I argued this?
I believe post 72,
QuoteYou can worry about clothes or you can worry about important stuff like whether you're doing your job or whether your product will work as intended.
For some reason you thought to poor fellow couldnt worry about more than one thing. Even though the rest of society seems to be able to worry about doing their job and dressing appropriately.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 08:27:14 PM
Quote from: Maximus on November 16, 2014, 08:12:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 06:23:50 PM
You had argued that he didnt have enough brain power left over to realize he was being daft.
Can you show me where I argued this?
I believe post 72,
QuoteYou can worry about clothes or you can worry about important stuff like whether you're doing your job or whether your product will work as intended.
For some reason you thought to poor fellow couldnt worry about more than one thing. Even though the rest of society seems to be able to worry about doing their job and dressing appropriately.
That says nothing about brain power, but rather about what one considers important.
It's actually a popular method among the highly successful to limit the mundane in order to focus like a laser on what they consider important. You know those black shirts Steve Jobs always wore? He owned dozens of them and wore almost nothing else.
Zuck too apparently.
Quote
Steve Jobs had his simple black turtlenecks, Twitter's Jack Dorsey had his sharp Prada suit, and Mark Zuckerberg has his uniform of nondescript, plain gray T-shirts. At a recent Q&A session, someone finally asked him why he seems to have a lifetime supply of inoffensive, poorly fitting gray tees.
His answer: "I'm in this really lucky position where I get to wake up every day and help serve more than a billion people. And I'd feel I'm not doing my job if I spent any of my energy on things that are silly or frivolous about my life."
He should stop killing his own meat if he feels that way.
Steve Jobs wore clothing appropriate to his role. The excuse that this guy needed to "focus" is pretty lame.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 10:10:31 PM
Steve Jobs wore clothing appropriate to his role.
Millionaire CEO? Yeah.
Fuck, I do not understanf whax fogin douenm .
Ah min, I reache thad momen wheun I losecpmtrol.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 16, 2014, 09:37:52 PM
It's actually a popular method among the highly successful to limit the mundane in order to focus like a laser on what they consider important. You know those black shirts Steve Jobs always wore? He owned dozens of them and wore almost nothing else.
Excepts Jobs being Jobs, that wasn't any random black turtleneck. He selected a design by famous fashion designer Issey Miyake and then proceeded to order about 100 or so of them.
So it's definitely not that he didn't care what he looked like - he cared quite a bit. He just liked the idea of having a personal look, a personal uniform.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2011/1012/The-story-behind-Steve-Jobs-s-black-turtleneck
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 02:31:16 PM
He's a nerd who's primary job is to do science stuff, not talk to the press. The shirt in question is not one he wears regularly around female coworkers; it's a celebration shirt.
The appropriate response is a chuckle about tackiness and bad taste, not screeching and pillorying.
And the women on it aren't very hott.
The thing is - I don't hear anyone "screeching and pillorying". Almost all of the actual criticisms have been quite muted.
Quote from: Barrister on November 16, 2014, 10:18:35 PM
The thing is - I don't hear anyone "screeching and pillorying". Almost all of the actual criticisms have been quite muted.
QuoteThis is the sort of casual misogyny that stops women from entering certain scientific fields. They see a guy like that on TV and they don't feel welcome. They see a poster of greased up women in a colleague's office and they know they aren't respected. They hear comments about "bitches" while out at a bar with fellow science students, and they decide to change majors. And those are the women who actually make it that far. Those are the few who persevered even when they were discouraged from pursuing degrees in physics, chemistry, and math throughout high school. These are the women who forged on despite the fact that they were told by elementary school classmates and the media at large that girls who like science are nerdy and unattractive. This is the climate women who dream of working at NASA or the ESA come up against, every single day. This shirt is representative of all of that, and the ESA has yet to issue a statement or apologize for that.
Quite muted?
Quote from: Jacob on November 16, 2014, 01:44:56 PM
I think gratuitous semi-naked chick imagery are inappropriate in the workplace, and that their casual acceptance can contribute to a hostile environment.
Yeah sure, one should not wear that kind of thing professionally. But is this typical of STEM and does it pervade throughout offices from Google to Intel to Apple to Samsung? I have never seen one in all my years of going to school in STEM much less in a professional environment. But the claim is this is typical, unique to STEM, and widespread and constant.
This was not an attack on one guy. He was made a symbol as a typical STEM guy.
Quote from: Barrister on November 16, 2014, 10:18:35 PM
The thing is - I don't hear anyone "screeching and pillorying". Almost all of the actual criticisms have been quite muted.
Um it was basically implied that we are all subhuman barbarians who call women bitches, have dirty pictures in our offices and go out of our way to harass and attack women. Basically this is symbolic of how horrible we are. I mean for fucksake how many scientists have dirty pictures in their offices? How many wear shirts with naked women and refer to their colleagues as bitches? Certainly there are some but this is widespread and constant and far exceeds every other field in the world?
This is also not the first time that I have seen this thrown about by the way. I have seen articles claiming that in STEM women face 'rape and sexual harassment' on a 'daily basis'. The reason that we do not have more women in STEM is basically because we are monsters at a rate that vastly exceeds men in every other field.
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SOME MAY BE BETTTTRRE WHAT?
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s\ AMD m.
some MAY BETTER,
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SSSSSS
AND AND
MMMM
bRITANY AND THST CHICKM FROM TRINIDAD TOBAGO.
rIHANA AND Brittany s[PEARSSS.
Maybe you've had enough light beers for one night.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 16, 2014, 10:53:11 PM
Maybe you've had enough light beers for one night.
What?
The nghit is short!!!!!
In space nofady can hear mi nagging!!!!@@@@2221111
Thank you Siege, you are actually making this boring thread almost not boring.
Ah, ok.
Thank uouy?
Voice recognition software is getting pretty good.
Any minute now, Seigy will don a wildly inappropriate shirt. :cool:
Quote from: mongers on November 16, 2014, 11:12:10 PM
Any minute now, Seigy will don a wildly inappropriate shirt. :cool:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.animalshirts.net%2Fwolfshirts%2FwolfshirtMJ37.jpg&hash=4f9c271861fa0a3bdda5eadad335c73e7dbf71ac)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgalleryplus.ebayimg.com%2Fws%2Fweb%2F221286377827_1_0_1%2F1000x1000.jpg&hash=60617371eaf871abfaef85136e0f5d97c01ce622)
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 16, 2014, 08:20:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 16, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Has this story really passed so far from fact that now the "truth" is that there were naked women on the shirt? I mean, wasn't the whole point that people saw the shirt? It didn't have naked women on it, everyone knows it, so why are people now arguing that the problem was that the shirt was "the one with the naked women?" Everyone knows it's a lie when they argue that, so why continue to utter the lie? Lack of intellectual integrity? Laziness? Love of bullshit rhetoric? All of the above?
You have sunk to a new low of torturing a definition to make a pedantic argument.
The "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument hasn't worked since kindergarten. Are you arguing now that "naked women" is just another word for "women" (in which case, that's the tortured definition, for sure) or that your use of the lie "naked" is meaningless, in which case you are making the pedantic argument.
The shirt was certainly not in good taste in anyone's mind except maybe for the guy and his friend, but the dishonest rhetoric of referring to it as "the one with the naked women" is more reprehensible than a tacky shirt.
Please, respond with another one of your lame ad homs. You haven't made an ad hom attack on me in three or four days, and I miss the laugh they provide.
"When the wise man points at the moon, the imbecile examines his finger."--Confucius
;)
So is it just uptight, repressed Americans that are deeply offended by the dude's shirt, or are enlightened Euros also offended?
I don't think anyone on Languish is offended, it would be women who would potentially be offended.
Mostly we just think the guy is kind of an asshole for wearing something like that to work.
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:09:21 PM
I don't think anyone on Languish is offended, it would be women who would potentially be offended.
Mostly we just think the guy is kind of an asshole for wearing something like that to work.
The thing is, some people are basically lambasting the guy for poor fashion sense, and acting like having good taste in clothing is part of the job of being a researcher.
I guess in this age of video blogging, Instagram, sending Snapchat shots of your nutsack to LinkedIn and whatnot, the concept of wearing something professionally appropriate in representing yourself and your program for a televised interview is lost to the ages. Que Sirhan Sirhan.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 12:39:17 PM
I guess in this age of video blogging, Instagram, sending Snapchat shots of your nutsack to LinkedIn and whatnot, the concept of wearing something professionally appropriate in representing yourself and your program for a televised interview is lost to the ages. Que Sirhan Sirhan.
Just to make myself clear, I'm not saying that the shirt was appropriate, just that given his position, there wasn't any reason for him to wear a suit. Heck, that's so far from the professional requirements of his profession that he might not even own one. A lab coat would have been fine.
Oh, I think it's been well established in this thread that academics, researchers or other miscellaneous pencilnecks need not care about what they're wearing, since they have such more important thoughts to think.
Quote from: dps on November 17, 2014, 12:32:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:09:21 PM
I don't think anyone on Languish is offended, it would be women who would potentially be offended.
Mostly we just think the guy is kind of an asshole for wearing something like that to work.
The thing is, some people are basically lambasting the guy for poor fashion sense, and acting like having good taste in clothing is part of the job of being a researcher.
There is poor fashion sense (I have none at all, myself) and there is being basically self aware enough to realize that wearing something that is obviously going to offend some people and/or make some people feel uncomfortable is just stupid.
This isn't about fashion sense, it is about having a basic amount of empathy for other human beings who have to work with you.
Quote from: dps on November 17, 2014, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 12:39:17 PM
I guess in this age of video blogging, Instagram, sending Snapchat shots of your nutsack to LinkedIn and whatnot, the concept of wearing something professionally appropriate in representing yourself and your program for a televised interview is lost to the ages. Que Sirhan Sirhan.
Just to make myself clear, I'm not saying that the shirt was appropriate, just that given his position, there wasn't any reason for him to wear a suit. Heck, that's so far from the professional requirements of his profession that he might not even own one. A lab coat would have been fine.
Oh, hell yeah. Fuck, a suit for him would just be telling people he is management, and not a scientist or engineer. That would be a bad idea.
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 11:17:33 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgalleryplus.ebayimg.com%2Fws%2Fweb%2F221286377827_1_0_1%2F1000x1000.jpg&hash=60617371eaf871abfaef85136e0f5d97c01ce622)
Suddenly I have the urge to listen to my Nirvana albums. :unsure:
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:59:47 PM
This isn't about fashion sense, it is about having a basic amount of empathy for other human beings who have to work with you.
But they're only
women, B. If they don't like it, then something-something whore pills, make me a sammich, etc.
Quote from: dps on November 17, 2014, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 12:39:17 PM
I guess in this age of video blogging, Instagram, sending Snapchat shots of your nutsack to LinkedIn and whatnot, the concept of wearing something professionally appropriate in representing yourself and your program for a televised interview is lost to the ages. Que Sirhan Sirhan.
Just to make myself clear, I'm not saying that the shirt was appropriate, just that given his position, there wasn't any reason for him to wear a suit. Heck, that's so far from the professional requirements of his profession that he might not even own one. A lab coat would have been fine.
I went on record in page one as saying he should have worn a shirt and tie.
That's not the same as wearing a suit.
To most women and some guys, what you wear is a form of communication. So fashion sense and empathy are linked.
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:59:47 PM
There is poor fashion sense (I have none at all, myself) and there is being basically self aware enough to realize that wearing something that is obviously going to offend some people and/or make some people feel uncomfortable is just stupid.
This isn't about fashion sense, it is about having a basic amount of empathy for other human beings who have to work with you.
The problem is that these guys, by and large, don't have what you are looking for. i used to work with a whole lotta scientists at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics lab when I was in the submarine security business, and they, to a man (or woman) didn't have the basic empathy to wear the kinds of clothing that computer programmers or accountants wore. One guy wore sandals, every day, rain or shine or snow (he wore those Japanese socks with the separate toes when he had to wear his sandals in the snow) - no basic empathy at all. One mathematician wore the same ratty cardigan he has worn every day for a decade or more. One was, frankly, a little too lax about showering. Their brains just weren't wired right for working out which tie goes with which shirt, and they took some pride in their eccentricities, when they thought about them at all (which likely wasn't often). If forced to wear a shirt and tie, they'd likely wear a striped shirt with a polka-dotted tie and never understand how un-empathic that really was.
Quote from: Barrister on November 17, 2014, 01:13:31 PM
A lab coat would have been fine.
See, somebody breaking out their Wernher Von Brauns from the Mercury program, now that's researcher chic. Much more hip than Hawaiian shirts. That's local news sports guy crap.
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:09:21 PMMostly we just think the guy is kind of an asshole for wearing something like that to work.
No, I don't. I think he was trying to make a nice gesture and a shout out by wearing this shirt that had been hand-made and customised by a good friend of his on the biggest day of his career and he didn't think/realise how other people would see it.
I feel sorry for him mostly.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 17, 2014, 01:33:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:09:21 PMMostly we just think the guy is kind of an asshole for wearing something like that to work.
No, I don't. I think he was trying to make a nice gesture and a shout out by wearing this shirt that had been hand-made and customised by a good friend of his on the biggest day of his career and he didn't think/realise how other people would see it.
I feel sorry for him mostly.
Dude also had tat sleeves.
He deserves what he gets.
<_<
Quote from: grumbler on November 17, 2014, 01:26:41 PM
The problem is that these guys, by and large, don't have what you are looking for. i used to work with a whole lotta scientists at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics lab when I was in the submarine security business, and they, to a man (or woman) didn't have the basic empathy to wear the kinds of clothing that computer programmers or accountants wore. One guy wore sandals, every day, rain or shine or snow (he wore those Japanese socks with the separate toes when he had to wear his sandals in the snow) - no basic empathy at all. One mathematician wore the same ratty cardigan he has worn every day for a decade or more. One was, frankly, a little too lax about showering. Their brains just weren't wired right for working out which tie goes with which shirt, and they took some pride in their eccentricities, when they thought about them at all (which likely wasn't often). If forced to wear a shirt and tie, they'd likely wear a striped shirt with a polka-dotted tie and never understand how un-empathic that really was.
You're absolutely right about that crowd. I always enjoyed getting the calls about their access cards not working on lab doors; they can sequence the shit out of a genome, but they can't try to turn the door knob.
But Hawaiian shirt guy with the Tarantino grindhouse motif and hipster biker tats doesn't strike me as that kind of guy.
Quote from: Barrister on November 17, 2014, 01:35:36 PM
Dude also had tat sleeves.
He deserves what he gets.
<_<
Everyone's got a sleeve nowadays :console:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 17, 2014, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 17, 2014, 01:35:36 PM
Dude also had tat sleeves.
He deserves what he gets.
<_<
Everyone's got a sleeve nowadays :console:
Everyone? :huh:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 17, 2014, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 17, 2014, 01:35:36 PM
Dude also had tat sleeves.
He deserves what he gets.
<_<
Everyone's got a sleeve nowadays :console:
The only people I know who have sleeves (not individual tats) are Accuseds.
Quote from: Valmy on November 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
This is also not the first time that I have seen this thrown about by the way. I have seen articles claiming that in STEM women face 'rape and sexual harassment' on a 'daily basis'.
The rape conference room here is already booked solid until the end of the year. :(
QuoteThe reason that we do not have more women in STEM is basically because we are monsters at a rate that vastly exceeds men in every other field.
A more valid criticism, based on my own professional and academic experience, is that engineering (and especially electrical engineering) is so heavily male-dominated that a successful female engineer will have to be okay with being "One of the guys." Another is that a lot of engineers come from non-western cultures and may have some difficulties working with women. Not every woman is going to be comfortable with both of those; and that probably stops some women from completing an engineering degree.
Quote from: Barrister on November 17, 2014, 01:35:36 PMDude also had tat sleeves.
He deserves what he gets.
<_<
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Savonarola on November 17, 2014, 01:43:58 PM
Another is that a lot of engineers come from non-western cultures and may have some difficulties working with women. Not every woman is going to be comfortable with both of those; and that probably stops some women from completing an engineering degree.
Ain't that the truth. Always had issues with that from a complaint perspective.
He should be put on probation, recorded as a criminal and put on several advisory lists to make sure he'll always be poor and never contribute to society again. Even though he's a rocket scientist.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 17, 2014, 01:56:01 PM
He should be put on probation, recorded as a criminal and put on several advisory lists to make sure he'll always be poor and never contribute to society again. Even though he's a rocket scientist.
If that's what's needed to convince people that it is both form and substance that are important, I'm all for it.
In any event I'm disappointed that no one posted "So that's what happened to Rocky Horror."
Quote from: Savonarola on November 17, 2014, 02:01:15 PM
In any event I'm disappointed that no one posted "So that's what happened to Rocky Horror."
Too old to be RH I think.
The dude in the gold pants? I don't see the connection.
Quote from: Savonarola on November 17, 2014, 02:01:15 PM
In any event I'm disappointed that no one posted "So that's what happened to Rocky Horror."
:lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 17, 2014, 02:08:17 PM
The dude in the gold pants? I don't see the connection.
You probably didn't get that far in the movie.
Quote from: Valmy on November 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
This is also not the first time that I have seen this thrown about by the way. I have seen articles claiming that in STEM women face 'rape and sexual harassment' on a 'daily basis'. The reason that we do not have more women in STEM is basically because we are monsters at a rate that vastly exceeds men in every other field.
Next launch I want mission control looking like this. ;)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rooshvforum.com%2Fattachment.php%3Faid%3D22925&hash=005127d57d79fac51b128ec66bf66755e9f90757)
Quote from: grumbler on November 17, 2014, 01:26:41 PMThe problem is that these guys, by and large, don't have what you are looking for. i used to work with a whole lotta scientists at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics lab when I was in the submarine security business, and they, to a man (or woman) didn't have the basic empathy to wear the kinds of clothing that computer programmers or accountants wore. One guy wore sandals, every day, rain or shine or snow (he wore those Japanese socks with the separate toes when he had to wear his sandals in the snow) - no basic empathy at all. One mathematician wore the same ratty cardigan he has worn every day for a decade or more. One was, frankly, a little too lax about showering. Their brains just weren't wired right for working out which tie goes with which shirt, and they took some pride in their eccentricities, when they thought about them at all (which likely wasn't often). If forced to wear a shirt and tie, they'd likely wear a striped shirt with a polka-dotted tie and never understand how un-empathic that really was.
This is spot on.
Quote from: Legbiter on November 17, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
This is also not the first time that I have seen this thrown about by the way. I have seen articles claiming that in STEM women face 'rape and sexual harassment' on a 'daily basis'. The reason that we do not have more women in STEM is basically because we are monsters at a rate that vastly exceeds men in every other field.
Next launch I want mission control looking like this. ;)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rooshvforum.com%2Fattachment.php%3Faid%3D22925&hash=005127d57d79fac51b128ec66bf66755e9f90757)
:D
A guy with a hair plug concession could really clean up there.
Quote from: Savonarola on November 17, 2014, 01:43:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
This is also not the first time that I have seen this thrown about by the way. I have seen articles claiming that in STEM women face 'rape and sexual harassment' on a 'daily basis'.
The rape conference room here is already booked solid until the end of the year. :(
QuoteThe reason that we do not have more women in STEM is basically because we are monsters at a rate that vastly exceeds men in every other field.
A more valid criticism, based on my own professional and academic experience, is that engineering (and especially electrical engineering) is so heavily male-dominated that a successful female engineer will have to be okay with being "One of the guys." Another is that a lot of engineers come from non-western cultures and may have some difficulties working with women. Not every woman is going to be comfortable with both of those; and that probably stops some women from completing an engineering degree.
Isnt that essentially the same argument I was making few weeks ago about gay CEOs (only that I was presenting it not as a complaint but a statement of fact).
Quote from: Legbiter on November 17, 2014, 02:53:40 PMNext launch I want mission control looking like this. ;)
All dudes using outdated equipment, displaying an American logo?
Quote from: grumbler on November 17, 2014, 01:26:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:59:47 PM
There is poor fashion sense (I have none at all, myself) and there is being basically self aware enough to realize that wearing something that is obviously going to offend some people and/or make some people feel uncomfortable is just stupid.
This isn't about fashion sense, it is about having a basic amount of empathy for other human beings who have to work with you.
The problem is that these guys, by and large, don't have what you are looking for. i used to work with a whole lotta scientists at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics lab when I was in the submarine security business, and they, to a man (or woman) didn't have the basic empathy to wear the kinds of clothing that computer programmers or accountants wore. One guy wore sandals, every day, rain or shine or snow (he wore those Japanese socks with the separate toes when he had to wear his sandals in the snow) - no basic empathy at all. One mathematician wore the same ratty cardigan he has worn every day for a decade or more. One was, frankly, a little too lax about showering. Their brains just weren't wired right for working out which tie goes with which shirt, and they took some pride in their eccentricities, when they thought about them at all (which likely wasn't often). If forced to wear a shirt and tie, they'd likely wear a striped shirt with a polka-dotted tie and never understand how un-empathic that really was.
That's why they have management.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 17, 2014, 12:59:47 PM
This isn't about fashion sense, it is about having a basic amount of empathy for other human beings who have to work with you.
But they're only women, B. If they don't like it, then something-something whore pills, make me a sammich, etc.
CORRECT
Quote from: Savonarola on November 17, 2014, 01:43:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
This is also not the first time that I have seen this thrown about by the way. I have seen articles claiming that in STEM women face 'rape and sexual harassment' on a 'daily basis'.
The rape conference room here is already booked solid until the end of the year. :(
QuoteThe reason that we do not have more women in STEM is basically because we are monsters at a rate that vastly exceeds men in every other field.
A more valid criticism, based on my own professional and academic experience, is that engineering (and especially electrical engineering) is so heavily male-dominated that a successful female engineer will have to be okay with being "One of the guys." Another is that a lot of engineers come from non-western cultures and may have some difficulties working with women. Not every woman is going to be comfortable with both of those; and that probably stops some women from completing an engineering degree.
I mostly just figured it was because math was hard for girls.
I'M LEAFING. :mad:
Special BBC 'Sky at Night' programme about the Rosetta mission; chocked full of Loud shirts and questionable style choices. :cool:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04pkvpq/the-sky-at-night-rosetta-a-sky-at-night-special (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04pkvpq/the-sky-at-night-rosetta-a-sky-at-night-special)
Quote from: Jacob on November 17, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on November 17, 2014, 02:53:40 PMNext launch I want mission control looking like this. ;)
All dudes using outdated equipment, displaying an American logo?
Outdated equipment that WENT TO THE FUCKING MOON (unlike nowadays). :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 17, 2014, 04:17:13 PM
Isnt that essentially the same argument I was making few weeks ago about gay CEOs (only that I was presenting it not as a complaint but a statement of fact).
You dropped out of the CEO school to pursue the law? :hmm:
Seriously though, I would offer the same argument to Sav that I offered you in that thread. I see a good amount of female Electrical Engineers in my school and when I have been interviewing, and I have yet to see one who was "one of the guys". Granted this is my anecdotal experience but that is what Sav was offering :P
But these tend to be younger people.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 17, 2014, 09:51:40 PM
Outdated equipment that WENT TO THE FUCKING MOON (unlike nowadays). :P
It would've been pretty embarrassing if Rosetta and Philae went to the moon.
The thing is, if anyone could/should be offended by this, it is only the woken this guy works with. Period. If they aren't the case is closed.
The most pathetic: a bunch of guys on the internet who get offended on behalf of bunch of imaginary women. Especially if you (as is the case with everybody in this thread) will never achieve in your life what this guy has already accomplished, professionally.
I think the last thing is crucial to the argument those of us who were talking about "absent minded scientists" were making. This guy is not some poor sod who are dime a dozen and does some job for his company and ends up on tv to report they had record sales or they saved a drowing cat or something.
This is a member of a team that achieved a spectacular scientific achievement. And given that he was tasked with talking to tv I assume he is not their coffee boy.
So people who contributed to humanity infinitely less than this guy (and this situation is unlikely to change until they die) lambasting him about proper behaviour or not wearing a shirt and a tie are pathetic.
Fuck you, you filthy fucking AIDS magnet*. Go to court next time with your wine glasses in a fucking moo-moo and let us know what happens.
*Apologies to garbon, Shiv and the rest of the much nicer LGBT community.
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 01:19:43 AM
So people who contributed to humanity infinitely less than this guy
Let's not be getting ahead of ourselves. While it's very cool, landing a probe on a comet is unlikely to have that much practical impact on human life.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 01:54:04 AM
Fuck you, you filthy fucking AIDS magnet*. Go to court next time with your wine glasses in a fucking moo-moo and let us know what happens.
*Apologies to garbon, Shiv and the rest of the much nicer LGBT community.
I avoided going after specific people but since you started then yes: guy in the BDSM shirt >>>> you. :contract:
That may be, but at least I'm dressed appropriately. Now go impale yourself on diseased penis meat.
I think the biggest thing preventing women getting into STEM is that marrying a celebrity or showing your enormous arse on a magazine cover is passed off as an acceptable way to make a fast buck rather than learning hard sums.
I think by college most women realize they're not gonna be paid to pose for magazine covers.
Indian Space Research Organisation staff celebrating putting a satellite in orbit around Mars back in September:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F77807000%2Fjpg%2F_77807434_77807433.jpg&hash=0671614842e103f9784137f940ab8869866f5d46)
OMG those clothes offend me as a man!!
Not pictured: they were all raped and left for dead afterwards
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 01:09:02 AM
The thing is, if anyone could/should be offended by this, it is only the woken this guy works with. Period. If they aren't the case is closed.
The most pathetic: a bunch of guys on the internet who get offended on behalf of bunch of imaginary women. Especially if you (as is the case with everybody in this thread) will never achieve in your life what this guy has already accomplished, professionally.
Uh, the women I know - my wife, mother, niece, friends and colleagues, are hardly imaginary. And as I said, I don't think this is worth over-reacting to, but that doesn't mean it can or should pass by without comment.
Plus I'm not sure how you compare achievements between law and rocket science, but I'm professionally pretty accomplished for this stage in my career, and I have no problem giving my $0.02.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2014, 10:26:42 AM
Not pictured: they were all raped and left for dead afterwards
Not true. Some of them died from infections during a mass sterilization.
Sorry but no you aren't. You are a prosecutor in Bumfuck, Canada. For the record, neither am I. This guy has accomplished something spectacular for the very first time in human history. Neither you or I have.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2014, 10:26:42 AM
Not pictured: they were all raped and left for dead afterwards
garbon will be soon here to explain how they probably knew the perp before so it's alright and they are really at fault. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 10:43:36 AM
Sorry but no you aren't. You are a prosecutor in Bumfuck, Canada. For the record, neither am I. This guy has accomplished something spectacular for the very first time in human history. Neither you or I have.
I once ate 20 bowls of chili on a dare. ME= BETTER THAN YOU
Totally unoffended by the shirt. Completely offended by this thread.
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 10:49:41 AM
Totally unoffended by the shirt. Completely offended by this thread.
:cheers:
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 10:43:36 AM
Sorry but no you aren't. You are a prosecutor in Bumfuck, Canada. For the record, neither am I. This guy has accomplished something spectacular for the very first time in human history. Neither you or I have.
Not anylonger. :)
And this guy hardly did it by himself. Why, in fact, he's just a civil servant (working for ESA) just like me.
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 10:53:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 10:43:36 AM
Sorry but no you aren't. You are a prosecutor in Bumfuck, Canada. For the record, neither am I. This guy has accomplished something spectacular for the very first time in human history. Neither you or I have.
Not anylonger. :)
And this guy hardly did it by himself. Why, in fact, he's just a civil servant (working for ESA) just like me.
Doesnt matter. You are a Salieri. This guy is a Mozart.
So? I'd also tell Mozart he looks fucking ridiculous and is making us all a little uncomfortable.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfweekly.com%2Fimager%2Fmozart-just-wants-you-to-have-a-ball%2Fb%2Fbig%2F2600718%2F6df1%2Famadeus_laughing.jpg&hash=e7c5e4d1560888c3de382f8f5c79163dbd37dd9e)
And I wouldn't. Because breaking social norms is the prerogative of Mozarts. Otherwise you risk ending up looking like a petty, pathetic footnote in the annals of history.
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 11:21:08 AM
And I wouldn't. Because breaking social norms is the prerogative of Mozarts. Otherwise you risk ending up looking like a petty, pathetic footnote in the annals of history.
Who cares about what they end up looking like in the annals of history? Unless I make a late career change into serial killing then I've got more chance ending up in One Direction than the annals of history as a footnote or otherwise.
Trouble is there's a lot more people who believe they're Mozarts/behave like Mozarts than actually are. Also breaking social norms isn't okay just because you are or suspect you are a genius. Just because you're talented doesn't mean you get to be a dick (which I don't think the scientist was).
And I don't think the Mozart comparison works either. Science, especially something this big is a collaborative process. Yes he may be an important part of the ESA team but he's not some Romantic individual genius (:x). He's a very good scientist, working in a team of very good scientists who achieved something impressive.
An idiot wants to make sure everyone knows he is an idiot and makes a fool out of himself on telly. How this has become a 16 pages thread?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 11:32:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 11:21:08 AM
And I wouldn't. Because breaking social norms is the prerogative of Mozarts. Otherwise you risk ending up looking like a petty, pathetic footnote in the annals of history.
Who cares about what they end up looking like in the annals of history? Unless I make a late career change into serial killing then I've got more chance ending up in One Direction than the annals of history as a footnote or otherwise.
Trouble is there's a lot more people who believe they're Mozarts/behave like Mozarts than actually are. Also breaking social norms isn't okay just because you are or suspect you are a genius. Just because you're talented doesn't mean you get to be a dick (which I don't think the scientist was).
And I don't think the Mozart comparison works either. Science, especially something this big is a collaborative process. Yes he may be an important part of the ESA team but he's not some Romantic individual genius (:x). He's a very good scientist, working in a team of very good scientists who achieved something impressive.
Yeah geniuses (who this guy is probably not) shouldn't be able to get away with being assholes. If they do, it is because people in their professional environments are dependant on them, and are de facto forced to put with the assholes.
But make no mistake, this is something craved for by many people, they are just unable to achieve it. What else would explain the popularity of a series like House?
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
About what?
Has anyone else watch the 'Sky at Night' programme I link to above?
I didn't see one tie, the dress norm amongst these space scientists seems to be open neck shirt and non-matching jacket at 'best' this is what the project director was wearing. Otherwise there's quite a lot of loud shirts, patterned or otherwise, one or two were just wearing t-shirts or sweatshirts, which didn't look in especially good condition.
I think what was has confused some people here is the notions that going on television is something exceptional that these people should prepare for and be ready to present a corporately framed message to the media.
If you watch the programme, you'll see these scientists and ESA have given the several dozen/hundred plus press/tv journalists thorough uncontrolled access to the scientists and their project. The TV presenters are having almost real-time conversations with the team as they do their work, so you see one of them say, it's before 8am in the car park and I'm just going to button-hole the project director, who then arrives, quick conservation with cameraman, and he does a quick two-three minutes interview with the guy before running off.
No tie was in evidence, but I think he's going about the other part of his job, which is explaining science to the wider public, so even though it must be one of the busiest days of his life, he still finds time to engage with people outside his close-knit team.
Which to my mind, appears to be what the guy in the shirt was trying to do.
I should also point out, lots of the journalists/tv presenter appear to be former scientists, so seem to fit in well with that community's openness, hence making access more informal and unfettered by corporate concerns.
I hope the upshot of this storm in a teacup isn't the top level of ESA deciding that press access must in future be controlled and sticking some PR lush or HR drone in the way of scientists explaining what they do.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
About what?
You've called the guy an asshole more than once, for what exactly?
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
About what?
You've called the guy an asshole more than once, for what exactly?
Well if you go on TV dressed like that representing your team, then the only thing you care about is show how awesome you are (in your own head at least), pissing in the general direction of showing respect to your team. Ergo: an asshole. But I am not emotionally invested in this, if that was your impression.
Brian Cox, scruffy get and astronomy sex symbol.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F3%2F5%2F1267813249485%2FWonders-of-the-Solar-Syst-001.jpg&hash=fed4536a19b2e83d2d1107cb4154025ae813dbe2)
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
About what?
You've called the guy an asshole more than once, for what exactly?
Well if you go on TV dressed like that representing your team, then the only thing you care about is show how awesome you are (in your own head at least), pissing in the general direction of showing respect to your team. Ergo: an asshole. But I am not emotionally invested in this, if that was your impression.
Watch the programme I linked to and see if you still hold this 'opinion'.
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 01:35:14 PM
Brian Cox, scruffy get and astronomy sex symbol.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F3%2F5%2F1267813249485%2FWonders-of-the-Solar-Syst-001.jpg&hash=fed4536a19b2e83d2d1107cb4154025ae813dbe2)
I have seen him interviewed before. Now there is an excellent example of a very smart scientist who can concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 01:35:14 PM
Brian Cox, scruffy get and astronomy sex symbol.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F3%2F5%2F1267813249485%2FWonders-of-the-Solar-Syst-001.jpg&hash=fed4536a19b2e83d2d1107cb4154025ae813dbe2)
Brazen, in your job do you find PR getting in the way of your access to scientists/doers?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 18, 2014, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 01:35:14 PM
Brian Cox, scruffy get and astronomy sex symbol.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F3%2F5%2F1267813249485%2FWonders-of-the-Solar-Syst-001.jpg&hash=fed4536a19b2e83d2d1107cb4154025ae813dbe2)
I have seen him interviewed before. Now there is an excellent example of a very smart scientist who can concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
Yes, but he's generally fronting high profile pan-national programmes seen by many millions and for which he's presumably paid quite a bit of money.
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:38:55 PM
Yes, but he's generally fronting high profile pan-national programmes seen by many millions and for which he's presumably paid quite a bit of money.
Yes, and shirtman was fronting a high profile pan-national space program seen by many millions around the world. I am sure he was also being paid.
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
About what?
You've called the guy an asshole more than once, for what exactly?
Well if you go on TV dressed like that representing your team, then the only thing you care about is show how awesome you are (in your own head at least), pissing in the general direction of showing respect to your team. Ergo: an asshole. But I am not emotionally invested in this, if that was your impression.
Watch the programme I linked to and see if you still hold this 'opinion'.
He knew there would be lots of tv crews there that day, but he went in wearing that. As I said. An asshole.
This thread just proves to me that some of my feloow languish assholes have waaaaay too much time in their hands and are so bored that they argue over nothing just to entertain themselves.
I wish I had the time to be that bored. :(
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 18, 2014, 01:41:09 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:38:55 PM
Yes, but he's generally fronting high profile pan-national programmes seen by many millions and for which he's presumably paid quite a bit of money.
Yes, and shirtman was fronting a high profile pan-national space program seen by many millions around the world. I am sure he was also being paid.
But he wasn't fronting it, there were plenty of other more senior people interviewed.
He was only interviewed because the media had unfettered access to all of the scientists and he was an enthusiastic communicator. I wonder if there was extra remuneration in his employment contract to cover working with the media?
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 18, 2014, 01:52:42 PM
This thread just proves to me that some of my feloow languish assholes have waaaaay too much time in their hands and are so bored that they argue over nothing just to entertain themselves.
I wish I had the time to be that bored. :(
Boredom ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
It's weird for you, Tamas, to take such a illiberal stance. A right to be an asshole should be considered one of fundamental human rights.
He has the right to be an asshole and the rest of us in turn have the right to shun him for it.
Getting a bit shrill, aren't we?
About what?
You've called the guy an asshole more than once, for what exactly?
Well if you go on TV dressed like that representing your team, then the only thing you care about is show how awesome you are (in your own head at least), pissing in the general direction of showing respect to your team. Ergo: an asshole. But I am not emotionally invested in this, if that was your impression.
Watch the programme I linked to and see if you still hold this 'opinion'.
He knew there would be lots of tv crews there that day, but he went in wearing that. As I said. An asshole.
Hey, someone on the internet wins cos they get to call someone else an asshole. :cool:
I should email this guy and see if he wants to walk a hundred yards in your shoes.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
Well if you go on TV dressed like that representing your team, then the only thing you care about is show how awesome you are (in your own head at least), pissing in the general direction of showing respect to your team. Ergo: an asshole. But I am not emotionally invested in this, if that was your impression.
:lmfao: Projection much?
One of the things I love about this forum is the number of puritans who will absolutely deny that they are puritans, while defending their own right to make stupid black-and-white snap judgements about just about anyone on just about any topic. BB&T are at least reliably hilarious when it comes to things like these. Thanks for showing your ass, T.
:huh: Talk about storm in a teacup.
I don't feel like reading all 16 pages, so could somebody tell me why grumbler and mongers are personally offended for me not liking Shirtguy?
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
:huh: Talk about storm in a teacup.
I don't feel like reading all 16 pages, so could somebody tell me why grumbler and mongers are personally offended for me not liking Shirtguy?
Holy crap, sportsfan! Slow the fuck down and take a chill pill. No reason to go all supernova when people point out that you are a puritan!
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 02:01:50 PM
But he wasn't fronting it, there were plenty of other more senior people interviewed.
He was only interviewed because the media had unfettered access to all of the scientists.
Fair point. But surely he knew this was going to be a big media event and knowing that he did specifically pick out that shirt to wear on the big day.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 18, 2014, 02:18:06 PM
Fair point. But surely he knew this was going to be a big media event and knowing that he did specifically pick out that shirt to wear on the big day.
Yeah as a favor to his girlfriend.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 18, 2014, 02:18:06 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 02:01:50 PM
But he wasn't fronting it, there were plenty of other more senior people interviewed.
He was only interviewed because the media had unfettered access to all of the scientists.
Fair point. But surely he knew this was going to be a big media event and knowing that he did specifically pick out that shirt to wear on the big day.
Well it was certainly a mistake, a minor error, but if you saw the programme on the mission I liked to, this great achievement was conducted by a somewhat shabbily dressed bunch of individuals.
I don't think anyone at my workplace would object if someone came in wearing that shirt. But then I wear a T-shirt with a kitten in an army helmet and shades and wielding a hand grenade.
You know this thread has inspired me, I'm one of the worst dressed people I know, therefore I should become a scientist, can't be much more to it than that can it? :cool:
Quote from: mongers on November 18, 2014, 02:26:16 PM
You know this thread has inspired me, I'm one of the worst dressed people I know, therefore I should become a scientist, can't be much more to it than that can it? :cool:
Might be easier to buy a suit and some new shoes.
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 02:25:57 PM
I don't think anyone at my workplace would object if someone came in wearing that shirt. But then I wear a T-shirt with a kitten in an army helmet and shades and wielding a hand grenade.
You regularly walk around a dingy, crowded office wearing sunglasses and carrying live explosives? :cool:
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 02:25:57 PM
I don't think anyone at my workplace would object if someone came in wearing that shirt. But then I wear a T-shirt with a kitten in an army helmet and shades and wielding a hand grenade.
I have yet to see you wearing that T-shirt in any of your videos ;)
Some of us are puritans and proud <_<
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 18, 2014, 02:33:10 PM
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 02:25:57 PM
I don't think anyone at my workplace would object if someone came in wearing that shirt. But then I wear a T-shirt with a kitten in an army helmet and shades and wielding a hand grenade.
I have yet to see you wearing that T-shirt in any of your videos ;)
Damn, I nearly commented on this, but realised it could easily be misconstrued as being sexist. :blush:
Or properly construed as being sexist.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 02:35:58 PM
Some of us are puritans and proud <_<
Nothing wrong with being a puritan, so long as one is honest about it. It's as intellectually honest a belief as Fascism or whatever Raz calls his brand of craziness.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 02:41:29 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 02:35:58 PM
Some of us are puritans and proud <_<
Nothing wrong with being a puritan, so long as one is honest about it. It's as intellectually honest a belief as Fascism or whatever Raz calls his brand of craziness.
Plus, you get to wear that funny hat with a buckle on it. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Unknown-Puritan-Hat-Qual-XL/dp/B008CG7OSK
Anyone know where I can buy a white lab coat and some blue pens/pencils, see I have a real itch to become a scientist.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 02:11:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
Well if you go on TV dressed like that representing your team, then the only thing you care about is show how awesome you are (in your own head at least), pissing in the general direction of showing respect to your team. Ergo: an asshole. But I am not emotionally invested in this, if that was your impression.
:lmfao: Projection much?
One of the things I love about this forum is the number of puritans who will absolutely deny that they are puritans, while defending their own right to make stupid black-and-white snap judgements about just about anyone on just about any topic. BB&T are at least reliably hilarious when it comes to things like these. Thanks for showing your ass, T.
So according to grumbles,
Quote from: BarristerForget the pattern - why the hell is the man wearing a bowling shirt to go on tv?
Man up and wear a shirt and tie. :mad:
Makes one a puritan.
Let's put this assertion to the test, shall we?
QuotePuritan
[pyoo r-i-tn] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1. a member of a group of Protestants that arose in the 16th century within the Church of England, demanding the simplification of doctrine and worship, and greater strictness in religious discipline: during part of the 17th century the Puritans became a powerful political party.
2. (lowercase) a person who is strict in moral or religious matters, often excessively so.
adjective
3. of or pertaining to the Puritans.
4. (lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a moral puritan; puritanical.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/puritan
Well grumbles didn't use a capital P (and we know how sensitive he is to proper capitalization) he appears to be arguing that I am strict in moral or religious matters, often excessively so.
I don't recally making any moral commentary, and certainly didn't say anything religious.
My only commentary was sartorial - that a man going for an interview on tv ought to wear a shirt and tie (or something roughly equivalent). That doesn't strike me as being a particularly high or onerous bar. It's simply a standard look for a man trying to present a base level of professional competence.
But the guy had used his mental bandwidth for sciency stuff. I can relate to that. All my mental bandwidth is spent on advanced geniusy stuff, so I routinely thrash around naked in my own stool on the floor. Pure chance that I've never done a TV interview in that state.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 02:41:29 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 02:35:58 PM
Some of us are puritans and proud <_<
Nothing wrong with being a puritan, so long as one is honest about it. It's as intellectually honest a belief as Fascism or whatever Raz calls his brand of craziness.
Democracy.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 12:30:41 PM
An idiot wants to make sure everyone knows he is an idiot and makes a fool out of himself on telly. How this has become a 16 pages thread?
:mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2Fb6%2Fb63ece67bfd4da2cd2c20fa48544e360850f87a139cc6e0361ab074e2caad995.jpg&hash=4ccbed563639dce837a2109dac9b52749851ab93)
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 18, 2014, 02:33:10 PM
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 02:25:57 PM
I don't think anyone at my workplace would object if someone came in wearing that shirt. But then I wear a T-shirt with a kitten in an army helmet and shades and wielding a hand grenade.
I have yet to see you wearing that T-shirt in any of your videos ;)
I disguise myself as a fat, middle-aged frump for my public face.
I dress up for any public-facing events when I'm representing my company. Doesn't everyone?
I have been dared to wear the t-shirt. I can't resist a dare...
Oh wait, no shades, just cold, dead eyes.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0032%2F7882%2Fproducts%2Fwar_kitten_1024x1024.jpg%3Fv%3D1290028122&hash=9cc9a32991dd0865e736491222f8a85a0be07ef9)
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 02:50:43 PM
QuotePuritan
[pyoo r-i-tn] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1. anyone obsessed by the fear that someone, somewhere, somehow, is having fun.
http://dicktionary.reference.com/browse/puritan
My only commentary was sartorial - that a man going for an interview on tv ought to wear a shirt and tie (or something roughly equivalent). That doesn't strike me as being a particularly high or onerous bar. It's simply a standard look for a man trying to present a base level of professional competence.
The guy was having fun, and was celebrating by wearing a shirt made for the occasion by a friend of his. You have a problem with this, because his dress sense doesn't match yours (Berkut and Tamas have the same problem). I'm totally okay with that, as long as you guys are honest enough to admit that your preference for being buttoned down rather than fun is just a preference. Tamas insisting that the guy is an asshole for disagreeing with Tamas's dress sense is a much more extreme position than your or Berkut's, and I don't associate you two guys with that laughable argument.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 03:31:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 02:50:43 PM
QuotePuritan
[pyoo r-i-tn] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1. anyone obsessed by the fear that someone, somewhere, somehow, is having fun.
http://dicktionary.reference.com/browse/puritan
My only commentary was sartorial - that a man going for an interview on tv ought to wear a shirt and tie (or something roughly equivalent). That doesn't strike me as being a particularly high or onerous bar. It's simply a standard look for a man trying to present a base level of professional competence.
The guy was having fun, and was celebrating by wearing a shirt made for the occasion by a friend of his. You have a problem with this, because his dress sense doesn't match yours (Berkut and Tamas have the same problem). I'm totally okay with that, as long as you guys are honest enough to admit that your preference for being buttoned down rather than fun is just a preference. Tamas insisting that the guy is an asshole for disagreeing with Tamas's dress sense is a much more extreme position than your or Berkut's, and I don't associate you two guys with that laughable argument.
Its not my dress sense. My dress sense is the jeans and t-shirt like all other IT nerds' It is about the socially accepted dressing sense in situations where it is not just you being judged by how you dress, and the implication of disrespect to those others involved in the situation with you. Not complicated really.
Meanwhile in Australia, the female host of a daily program gets criticized for her outfits, whereas her male counterpart ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4it1k5OP9Q
QuoteKarl Stefanovic has worn the same suit most days on the Australian Today program for about a year.
The show's co-host is frustrated at how women on television are judged compared to men, because of what they say or wear.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 03:36:41 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 03:31:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 02:50:43 PM
QuotePuritan
[pyoo r-i-tn] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1. anyone obsessed by the fear that someone, somewhere, somehow, is having fun.
http://dicktionary.reference.com/browse/puritan
My only commentary was sartorial - that a man going for an interview on tv ought to wear a shirt and tie (or something roughly equivalent). That doesn't strike me as being a particularly high or onerous bar. It's simply a standard look for a man trying to present a base level of professional competence.
The guy was having fun, and was celebrating by wearing a shirt made for the occasion by a friend of his. You have a problem with this, because his dress sense doesn't match yours (Berkut and Tamas have the same problem). I'm totally okay with that, as long as you guys are honest enough to admit that your preference for being buttoned down rather than fun is just a preference. Tamas insisting that the guy is an asshole for disagreeing with Tamas's dress sense is a much more extreme position than your or Berkut's, and I don't associate you two guys with that laughable argument.
Its not my dress sense. My dress sense is the jeans and t-shirt like all other IT nerds' It is about the socially accepted dressing sense in situations where it is not just you being judged by how you dress, and the implication of disrespect to those others involved in the situation with you. Not complicated really.
For the sake of politeness, I'll assume your plucking this out of thin air rather than somewhere else.
When you represent your team/company/family on an official occasion, or to a wide public (lets say, the whole fucking world), maybe even with just your presence, it is customary to express that you actually care about it. One of the easiest ways to express this is that you don't dress into something totally inappropriate.
Please try to understand: this is not a cry against people expressing their individuality via clothing. It is just pointing out that there are situations in life, where going just a bit more formal (and this guy's case, a not totally in-your face shirt would have sufficed) shows respect to people involved in a social situation.
Wow, Tampax has a vagina. Makes sense I guess.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
Please try to understand: this is not a cry against people expressing their individuality via clothing.
Speak for yourself.
Quote from: The Brain on November 18, 2014, 04:42:47 PM
Wow, Tampax has a vagina. Makes sense I guess.
I am being attacked by a bunch of nerds for thinking that for a few days in your life, you need to change out of your slippers and shorts. Makes sense I guess.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
Please try to understand: this is not a cry against people expressing their individuality via clothing.
Speak for yourself.
A gay person who hates fashion? Now I've seen it all.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 18, 2014, 05:04:58 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
Please try to understand: this is not a cry against people expressing their individuality via clothing.
Speak for yourself.
A gay person who hates fashion? Now I've seen it all.
I love fashion. Most of fashion's about rules :P
Which the most famous designers routinely break.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
When you represent your team/company/family on an official occasion, or to a wide public (lets say, the whole fucking world), maybe even with just your presence, it is customary to express that you actually care about it. One of the easiest ways to express this is that you don't dress into something totally inappropriate.
Care about what
His team? They apparently had no problem with that.
The public? Why should he care about them?
What I find infuriating is some loser bitch who did not accomplish anything besides writing a shitty blog goes on how "I don't care that you landed a probe on a comet" and there are people who do not find that attitude preposterous.
Bet her comet is colder than the one someone actually bothered to land on.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 18, 2014, 05:11:49 PM
Which the most famous designers routinely break.
Yeah. But it's like Picasso - prove you can draw first :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 05:22:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
When you represent your team/company/family on an official occasion, or to a wide public (lets say, the whole fucking world), maybe even with just your presence, it is customary to express that you actually care about it. One of the easiest ways to express this is that you don't dress into something totally inappropriate.
Care about what
His team? They apparently had no problem with that.
The public? Why should he care about them?
What I find infuriating is some loser bitch who did not accomplish anything besides writing a shitty blog goes on how "I don't care that you landed a probe on a comet" and there are people who do not find that attitude preposterous.
Well the public are the ones who paid to put that probe on the comet in the first place, since this was an ESA probe to begin with.
And I'm pretty sure nobody has said "I don't care that you landed a probe on a comet" in discussing this.
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
And I'm pretty sure nobody has said "I don't care that you landed a probe on a comet" in discussing this.
I sort of would. Whenever I think about it I think it's a really impressive, mind-blowing achievement that I personally don't care about at all :blush:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 18, 2014, 05:11:49 PM
Which the most famous designers routinely break.
Yeah. But it's like Picasso - prove you can draw first :P
Sure you want this settled by judge Colt and his jury of six, pardner?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:38:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
And I'm pretty sure nobody has said "I don't care that you landed a probe on a comet" in discussing this.
I sort of would. Whenever I think about it I think it's a really impressive, mind-blowing achievement that I personally don't care about at all :blush:
It's a good job the acquisition of scientific knowledge isn't a matter of taste.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 03:31:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 18, 2014, 02:50:43 PM
QuotePuritan
[pyoo r-i-tn] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1. anyone obsessed by the fear that someone, somewhere, somehow, is having fun.
http://dicktionary.reference.com/browse/puritan
My only commentary was sartorial - that a man going for an interview on tv ought to wear a shirt and tie (or something roughly equivalent). That doesn't strike me as being a particularly high or onerous bar. It's simply a standard look for a man trying to present a base level of professional competence.
The guy was having fun, and was celebrating by wearing a shirt made for the occasion by a friend of his. You have a problem with this, because his dress sense doesn't match yours (Berkut and Tamas have the same problem). I'm totally okay with that, as long as you guys are honest enough to admit that your preference for being buttoned down rather than fun is just a preference. Tamas insisting that the guy is an asshole for disagreeing with Tamas's dress sense is a much more extreme position than your or Berkut's, and I don't associate you two guys with that laughable argument.
No, my issue has nothing to do with "dress sense", just with basic empathy with others. I don't think he was a dick because he was not dressed up enough, I think he was a dick for wearing a shirt with graphics that most reasonable people would recognize as very likely offensive to some people to work.
I think it is in poor taste and shows a disregard for your co-workers, and in such a way that it is likely to make some of them uncomfortable. If I was his boss I would quietly tell him that his dress was not appropriate for work for that reason alone.
Hell, my first post-college job was at Hewlett Packard where the dress code was "don't let any part of your naught bits show". People literally came to work dressed in togas. At least, I thought it was a toga. I loved it.
But I would not go to work at HP (were, btw, there were lots and lots of women working in a variety of STEM roles) wearing a shirt like that, because I think it is a pretty crude thing to do, and if one of my co-workers wore one, I would think they were rather crude.
Martinus wears a cape of dicks.
See, I think this is pretty funny, for example:
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2010/9/17/13/jesus-fucking-christ-18068-1284743805-17.jpg
But I think it would be in poor taste to wear it on a shirt to work, because there are people I know would find it offensive. And I don't think offending my co-workers is a very nice thing to do.
Oh, and I don't give two shits about how accomplished he is - he might be a genius, but that doesn't mean that he isn't being kind of a dick, if he does something kind of dick-like that I would consider non-geniuses to be kind of a dick over.
He can be a super accmplished genius AND kind of a dick.
I think it's more likely he was being utterly naive.
Quote from: Brazen on November 18, 2014, 03:21:42 PM
I dress up for any public-facing events when I'm representing my company. Doesn't everyone?
Yes that is the point that Seedy and most everyone else has been making.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
When you represent your team/company/family on an official occasion, or to a wide public (lets say, the whole fucking world), ....
Wait. Some guy from a website called "the Verge" is "the whole fucking world?" WTF?
This is some dude being casually interviewed in his workspace by some unknown dude from an unknown web site. This wasn't the BBC interviewing the head of the ESA. There was nothing "official" about this interview and the dude wasn't a spokesman for anything but himself.
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2014, 04:57:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 18, 2014, 04:42:47 PM
Wow, Tampax has a vagina. Makes sense I guess.
I am being attacked by a bunch of nerds for thinking that for a few days in your life, you need to change out of your slippers and shorts. Makes sense I guess.
You are being attacked for a puritan view of what people should wear in their workplace, and for calling the guy an asshole for wearing a "lucky shirt" (which was tacky, no question about it, but that's a matter of fashion sense and not assholiness) on his big day at work. Makes complete sense.
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2014, 05:41:40 PM
No, my issue has nothing to do with "dress sense", just with basic empathy with others. I don't think he was a dick because he was not dressed up enough, I think he was a dick for wearing a shirt with graphics that most reasonable people would recognize as very likely offensive to some people to work.
Most people don't work where he works. I haven't heard any complaints from anyone who works with him, just complaints from people who don't even know him, or what people normally wear where he works.
QuoteI think it is in poor taste and shows a disregard for your co-workers, and in such a way that it is likely to make some of them uncomfortable. If I was his boss I would quietly tell him that his dress was not appropriate for work for that reason alone.
Hell, my first post-college job was at Hewlett Packard where the dress code was "don't let any part of your naught bits show". People literally came to work dressed in togas. At least, I thought it was a toga. I loved it.
Most people would be offended if their co-workers showed up in togas. Your co-workers showed disrespect to co-workers, and you loved it. Okay. Extend that courtesy to others.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 18, 2014, 05:47:37 PM
I think it's more likely he was being utterly naive.
Exactly. And he wasn't being interviewed as a spokesman for anything, and he wasn't being interviewed by anyone from the actal media. He was being interviewed by some guy on the internet, likely because the guy on the internet heard that he was a real character, and so worth interviewing vice the actual ESA spokespeople being interviewed by the actual media.
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An enjoyable slapfight.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 06:43:07 PM
Wait. Some guy from a website called "the Verge" is "the whole fucking world?" WTF?
Exactly. Nobody else was interested in TV coverage of the event, apart from the Verge journalist.
Weak, man. Very weak.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 05:43:09 PM
Martinus wears a cape of dicks.
That's only partially true. It's made of foreskins he gets from the hospital.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 07:40:57 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 05:43:09 PM
Martinus wears a cape of dicks.
That's only partially true. It's made of foreskins he gets from the hospital.
And draped with severed feet.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 06:49:51 PM
I haven't heard any complaints from anyone who works with him
And you would defiitely be the person who they would go to first.
Quote from: grumbler on November 18, 2014, 06:49:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2014, 05:41:40 PM
No, my issue has nothing to do with "dress sense", just with basic empathy with others. I don't think he was a dick because he was not dressed up enough, I think he was a dick for wearing a shirt with graphics that most reasonable people would recognize as very likely offensive to some people to work.
Most people don't work where he works. I haven't heard any complaints from anyone who works with him, just complaints from people who don't even know him, or what people normally wear where he works.
Whether anyone complains or not, he is still kind of a dick for wearing something that is likely to be offensive. Not being a dick means you don't wear something that is likely to offend, whether someone complains or not. People often do not complain about things like that because they don't want to be seen as being a bitch or complainer, that doesn't mean it is cool to wear something overtly sexual and arguably demeaning.
QuoteI think it is in poor taste and shows a disregard for your co-workers, and in such a way that it is likely to make some of them uncomfortable. If I was his boss I would quietly tell him that his dress was not appropriate for work for that reason alone.
Hell, my first post-college job was at Hewlett Packard where the dress code was "don't let any part of your naught bits show". People literally came to work dressed in togas. At least, I thought it was a toga. I loved it.
Most people would be offended if their co-workers showed up in togas.
[/quote]
Not at Hewlett Packard. I think I can reasonable conclude in fact that nobody at HP was offended, or that there would be any reason to believe anyone would be offended by someone wearing a toga.
I do not think this is an apples to apples comparison - wearing imagery that is overtly sexual in nature and arguably demeaning to women is not at all similar to wearing a toga.
The toga was used as an illustration, in fact, that my objection had nothing to do with how casual his dress was, but rather the specific imagery it was displaying. Sorry you missed that point, maybe I should have made it somehow more clear.
Quote
Your co-workers showed disrespect to co-workers, and you loved it. Okay. Extend that courtesy to others.
No, I said I loved working there and their very casual dress code - I didn't say I loved showing disrespect to anyone. Of course, that is clear from what I wrote, and I know that, and you know that, so I am unsure why you would re-word what I wrote in that manner when we both know it isn't what I said.
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2014, 08:19:02 PM
Not at Hewlett Packard. I think I can reasonable conclude in fact that nobody at HP was offended, or that there would be any reason to believe anyone would be offended by someone wearing a toga.
People often do not complain about things like that because they don't want to be seen as being a bitch or complainer, that doesn't mean it is cool to wear something overtly sexual and arguably demeaning.
QuoteThe toga was used as an illustration, in fact, that my objection had nothing to do with how casual his dress was, but rather the specific imagery it was displaying. Sorry you missed that point, maybe I should have made it somehow more clear.
And my argument is, and has been all along, that his shirt was surely in bad taste, but that it may well have been perfectly acceptable (and indeed encouraged) in his workplace, just like your toga, because not everyone sees sex in everything. He surely displayed poor judgement for granting an interview (even with a web site he'd never heard of) wearing such a shirt, but, for all we know, his co-workers may have encouraged him to wear the "lucky shirt" (which may have been made by one of them, for all we know) on his big day, and it wasn't even his idea.
The rush to judgement (to the point of calling him an asshole, in the extreme case) is what I find so interesting. You assume you know far more about his workplace and his reasons for wearing the shirt than it seems to me you could
possibly know.
QuoteNo, I said I loved working there and their very casual dress code - I didn't say I loved showing disrespect to anyone. Of course, that is clear from what I wrote, and I know that, and you know that, so I am unsure why you would re-word what I wrote in that manner when we both know it isn't what I said.
You couldn't know what others considered disrespectful. You loved a dress code that certainly allowed "disrespectful" dress as far as someone was concerned, but you "loved it" because you think you knew the environment well enough to judge that no one was offended. You have no such knowledge when it comes to this ESA workplace, but you forge ahead with your condemnations anyway. There's a word for that.
Quote from: grumbler on November 19, 2014, 07:51:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2014, 08:19:02 PM
Not at Hewlett Packard. I think I can reasonable conclude in fact that nobody at HP was offended, or that there would be any reason to believe anyone would be offended by someone wearing a toga.
People often do not complain about things like that because they don't want to be seen as being a bitch or complainer, that doesn't mean it is cool to wear something overtly sexual and arguably demeaning.
And yet a reasonable person can judge that in fact a toga is not overtly sexual or arguably demeaning to anyone. Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Quote
QuoteThe toga was used as an illustration, in fact, that my objection had nothing to do with how casual his dress was, but rather the specific imagery it was displaying. Sorry you missed that point, maybe I should have made it somehow more clear.
And my argument is, and has been all along, that his shirt was surely in bad taste, but that it may well have been perfectly acceptable (and indeed encouraged) in his workplace,
If we agree it is in bad taste (ie kind of a dick thing to wear) then in fact we don't disagree on much.
Quote
just like your toga,
No, a toga, again, is not the same at all. It is just kind of weird, but doesn't have any sexual implication nor does it potentially demean anyone.
Quote
because not everyone sees sex in everything.
Not everyone does, but enough people see "sex" in scantily clad women that it is reasonable to think that some might find it offensive. The shirt he was wearing was overtly sexual in nature. It is not prudish to see "sex" in a shirt that is rather specifically designed to be titillating.
Quote
He surely displayed poor judgement for granting an interview (even with a web site he'd never heard of) wearing such a shirt, but, for all we know, his co-workers may have encouraged him to wear the "lucky shirt" (which may have been made by one of them, for all we know) on his big day, and it wasn't even his idea.
Possible, but if my co-workers think my racist shirt (for example) is lucky, it doesn't make me (or them) less of dicks if I wear it. Whether or not anyone actually complains about it. Even if the shirt can be argued to NOT be racist by someone trying hard to do so.
Quote
The rush to judgement (to the point of calling him an asshole, in the extreme case) is what I find so interesting. You assume you know far more about his workplace and his reasons for wearing the shirt than it seems to me you could possibly know.
I don't think I need to work at his workplace to judge that wearing a shirt like that is likely to be offensive to women. I suppose it is possible there is something unique and special about his workplace that somehow makes pictures of comic book type sexualized females appropriate, but that would be an argument someone would have to make - does he work in a comic book writing place, for example? No?
I don't have to work there to make reasonable judgement's about how people should act or dress at work. If there is something exceptional about his work environment that makes objectifying women somehow more acceptable than the norm, then someone would need to mention that in order for me to give him a pass for wearing something like that.
Quote
QuoteNo, I said I loved working there and their very casual dress code - I didn't say I loved showing disrespect to anyone. Of course, that is clear from what I wrote, and I know that, and you know that, so I am unsure why you would re-word what I wrote in that manner when we both know it isn't what I said.
You couldn't know what others considered disrespectful.
Of course I can - we make reasonable judgement's about that all the time. I make all kinds of choices about what I say, do, act, display based on reasonable judgements about what I think people will find acceptable in a variety of places and situations.
For example, wearing a Penfield High School Patriots (my kids school) polo shirt to work is perfectly reasonable in my workplace. But wearing that same shirt when I am going to another school to officiate a game is not so reasonable. That is a judgement that I make when I choose how to dress.
Quote
You loved a dress code that certainly allowed "disrespectful" dress as far as someone was concerned,
Except not the case at all - there was no reason for anyone to believe that the examples I've given were considered disrespectful by anyone at HP. Nor are you even trying to argue that they were - just that someone could have theoretically been offended, for no reason at all.
We know exactly why some people might be offended by his shirt, so again, apples and oranges.
Quote
but you "loved it" because you think you knew the environment well enough to judge that no one was offended. You have no such knowledge when it comes to this ESA workplace, but you forge ahead with your condemnations anyway. There's a word for that.
Yeah, it is called reasonable judgement. Wearing a shirt that overtly sexualizes women is easily judged to be likely to be found offensive by women in most any work environment that isn't a strip club.
I don't need to work at the ESA to be able to reasonably make that judgement.
Ah, a line-by-line Berkut vs. grumbler debate. The staple of Languish.
Yeah, I am already exhausted though.
Basically, if you can't see how his shirt is pretty obviously potentially offensive then I suppose you are fine with it.
If you can, then you have varying levels of "That guys is a kind of a dick" for wearing it.
I am sure he is a great guy otherwise. But if I was at work, and someone wore that in even the most casual of work environments, I would think he was kind of a dick, and would feel badly for my female co-workers.
Maybe that makes ME kind of a dick for judging the poor man. I can live with that I suppose.
I think throwing labels around like "dick" or "asshole" aren't really helpful. I don't know the guy, I can't really judge him by one shirt on one day.
But what I think I can say is that shirt was inappropriate on that occasion. No moral judgment involved.
Quote from: Berkut on November 19, 2014, 08:07:17 AM
And yet a reasonable person can judge that in fact a toga is not overtly sexual or arguably demeaning to anyone. Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.
that's a subjective judgement, dependent entirely on the toga worn and how its worn. No company I have direct experience with would allow their employees to wear togas to work, for fear of such wear becoming overly sexualized, not because they hate the look of the Roman Senate.
QuoteIf we agree it is in bad taste (ie kind of a dick thing to wear) then in fact we don't disagree on much.
I think we disagree on the meaning of the verb 'to be a dick," but if you mean it to be "to dress in bad taste" I can certainly live with that definition of being a dick. Like wearing a toga is being a dick.
QuoteNo, a toga, again, is not the same at all. It is just kind of weird, but doesn't have any sexual implication nor does it potentially demean anyone.
But wearing one is being a dick.
QuoteNot everyone does, but enough people see "sex" in scantily clad women that it is reasonable to think that some might find it offensive. The shirt he was wearing was overtly sexual in nature. It is not prudish to see "sex" in a shirt that is rather specifically designed to be titillating.
Cite? or mind reading?
QuotePossible, but if my co-workers think my racist shirt (for example) is lucky, it doesn't make me (or them) less of dicks if I wear it. Whether or not anyone actually complains about it. Even if the shirt can be argued to NOT be racist by someone trying hard to do so.
No, we have agreed that to wear shirts with cartoon women and to wear togas is to be a dick. Your shirt (whatever it is) fits in the "be a dick" category as well.
QuoteI don't think I need to work at his workplace to judge that wearing a shirt like that is likely to be offensive to women.
All women? Some women? What if the women who would be offended by the shirt never saw it? Would it be a dick to wear the shirt in his own closet, where no one ever saw him?
Again, the shirt is tacky, but wearing tacky shit like togas or this shirt is a tradeoff. You don't agree with his tradeoff, fine. I'm much less convinced, also fine. I don't believe in blanket judgements on topics like this, though. To condemn the guy requires meeting a higher bar for me than for you (and for you to unconditionally condemn him and call him an asshole requires a far higher bar than for Tamas), that's all. Puritans and I agree on little.
QuoteI suppose it is possible there is something unique and special about his workplace that somehow makes pictures of comic book type sexualized females appropriate, but that would be an argument someone would have to make - does he work in a comic book writing place, for example? No?
No, he works in a science lab. Bad dress sense is allowed there. Sometimes, even dress that would offend non-employees. The key is to not let non-employees see how silly the lab (or the toga-wearing-software-writers) are.
QuoteI don't have to work there to make reasonable judgement's about how people should act or dress at work. If there is something exceptional about his work environment that makes objectifying women somehow more acceptable than the norm, then someone would need to mention that in order for me to give him a pass for wearing something like that.
Okay. Like I said, this just reflects different standards of evidence required for condemnation.
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 08:18:54 AM
Ah, a line-by-line Berkut vs. grumbler debate. The staple of Languish.
I don't think intellectual debate is a staple of Languish at all. I think your hysterical hyperbole, CC's ad homs, and The Brain's hilarious non sequiturs are more the staples here.
And Tim bashing.
I like turtles.
Quote from: derspiess on November 19, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
I like turtles.
http://products.nestle.ca/en/brands/chocolates/turtles.aspx
???
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.maniacworld.com%2Fi-like-turtles.jpg&hash=1117086168cd3122646ba54e2dcd0d28b42ad995)
Quote from: derspiess on November 19, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
I like turtles.
Unfortunately for the turtles, so do the Chinese.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29563810
Quote from: grumbler on November 19, 2014, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 08:18:54 AM
Ah, a line-by-line Berkut vs. grumbler debate. The staple of Languish.
I don't think intellectual debate is a staple of Languish at all. I think your hysterical hyperbole, CC's ad homs, and The Brain's hilarious non sequiturs are more the staples here.
Are you happy you came back yet Marti?
As an aside, I've seen more press on the naked lady shirt than the spaceship on a comet. That has to say something about our priorities regarding the culture wars and science.
Oh boy.
http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/hirsi-ali-slams-feminisms-trivial-bs/article/2556419
Quote
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a harsh critic of Islam's treatment of women, said Wednesday that modern American feminism is focused on "trivial bullshit" and needs to be reclaimed.
Speaking at the Independent Women's Forum Women of Valor dinner, where she received an award for courage, Hirsi Ali reminded her audience of how far feminism has strayed from its original purpose.
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"I want you to remember that once upon a time, feminists fought for the access — basic right — access of girls to education," she said.
Hirsi Ali — who despite the harsh words she said, spoke softly, almost timidly — told the story of a fight between her mother and father when she was about 11 years old. Her mother wanted to take her and her sister out of school because education would lead them to rebel against their family and "bring shame upon us." Her father responded by saying, "If you take my girls out of school, I am going to curse you and you are going to burn in hell."
Taken out of context, Hirsi Ali said, one might side with her mother, but in reality, she said it was her father that allowed her to be educated and helped make her what she is today.
"That's what feminists used to fight for — the access for girls to education," Hirsi Ali said. "They used to fight for the recognition of girls as fellow human beings and recognition of their personal liberty."
She spoke of growing up in Somalia, where women aren't allowed to leave the house without asking permission from a male guardian and need to be accompanied by a male guardian.
"If something wrong were to happen to me, and where I come from that happened all the time — you were groped, you were harassed, you were raped — you had no recourse because you weren't supposed to be where you were," Hirsi Ali said. "You were married off as a child and you had to obey the person that you were married to, it was just your luck."
"Feminists in this country and in the West fought against that and won the battle," she added.
But now, Hirsi Ali said, feminism has taken that victory and squandered it.
"What we are now doing with the victory, and I agree with you if you condemn that and I condemn whole-heartedly the trivial bullshit it is to go after a man who makes a scientific breakthrough and all that we as women — organized women — do is to fret about his shirt?" Hirsi Ali said, referring to the controversy generated by the shirt featuring cartoons of scantily-clad women worn by the scientist who helped land a robot on a comet. "We must reclaim and retake feminism from our fellow idiotic women."
But, Hirsi Ali said, we should not throw away feminism, because that would be like throwing away the civil rights movement. Instead, feminism needs to fight the real war on women: Radical Islam and other parts of the world where women don't even have the right to an education or to leave their home without a male guardian.
She is right. Guy is still a douche though :P
Quote from: alfred russel on November 19, 2014, 12:41:09 PM
As an aside, I've seen more press on the naked lady shirt than the spaceship on a comet. That has to say something about our priorities regarding the culture wars and science.
If a STEM graduate falls in the forest without achieving anything marketable, can you still calculate the trajectory of his collapse?
Oh, and the Somali lady isn't necessarily correct. I mean, if you took an Auschwitz inmate and threw him into the modern liberal democratic state, he'd probably have nothing but unkind words to say about wrangles over the minimum wage. Source: Vladek Spiegelman, famous Holocaust survivor, father of Art Spiegelman, total jackass.
I think she may be correct in this instance.