http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520
:(
RIP
Ah crap. We knew it had to happen soon. But we all hoped, not yet.
Just heard that on the radio. I forgot how old he was (95). RIP :sleep:
:(
RIP
RIP.
RIP Nelson. You were a good dude.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 05:18:58 PM
RIP Nelson. You were a good dude.
Not disagreeing, but he was a complicated dude. He turned out well in the end though. Will be missed.
RIP. Had a long and rough life and did good for everyone else.
:(
All in all, a good old innings.
Quote from: Barrister on December 05, 2013, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 05:18:58 PM
RIP Nelson. You were a good dude.
Not disagreeing, but he was a complicated dude.
Only by his woman was he understood
RIP Nelson
Quote from: Savonarola on December 05, 2013, 05:28:52 PM
Only by his woman was he understood
I thought that was the rockiest part of his life.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 05:31:26 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on December 05, 2013, 05:28:52 PM
Only by his woman was he understood
I thought that was the rockiest part of his life.
Then maybe by his second one.
RIP :(
Quote
Only by his woman was he understood
Nelson Mandela was Shaft?
Quote from: Queequeg on December 05, 2013, 05:51:10 PM
Quote
Only by his woman was he understood
Nelson Mandela was Shaft?
shut your mouth
He worked hard advancing the cause of his people. He deserves his rest.
He had some serious missteps in his life, but eventually came around to promoting peace and understanding with everyone and malice towards none. Good in my book.
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2013, 08:31:51 PM
He had some serious missteps in his life, but eventually came around to promoting peace and understanding with everyone and malice towards none. Good in my book.
When I'm 95, I sure wouldn't want anyone holding me steadfastly to the stupid things I did when I was a mere kid.
Rest in peace, Nelson. A perfect life isn't the goal; a perfect conclusion just might be.
Nota bene: my dad died in his sleep in his early sixties. I'm not likely to make 95.
What are these indiscretions y'all are referring to?
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2013, 08:31:51 PM
He had some serious missteps in his life, but eventually came around to promoting peace and understanding with everyone and malice towards none. Good in my book.
Yep.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 09:13:22 PM
What are these indiscretions y'all are referring to?
He co-founded the militant wing of the ANC, which bombed a bunch of government targets in the 60s.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 09:13:22 PM
What are these indiscretions y'all are referring to?
I'm honestly surprised you forgot. You're older then me, you must have remembered what people were saying in the 1980's.
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
Quote from: fhdz on December 05, 2013, 09:20:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 09:13:22 PM
What are these indiscretions y'all are referring to?
He co-founded the militant wing of the ANC, which bombed a bunch of government targets in the 60s.
*Shrug*
Menachem Begin was a terrorist/freedom fighter and he was awarded the Noble for peace.
He spent a lot of time in gaol.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2013, 09:13:22 PM
What are these indiscretions y'all are referring to?
Besides the whole "he was a commie-sympathizing terrorist in the 60s" bit (which is very true)...
As President he was completely inactive on HIV in SA, despite pretty strong evidence, which led to his successor following along the same course.
Plus there was the pretty complex relationship with Winnie, who had her own issues.
Quote from: PDH on December 05, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
Very well said. :cheers:
Just copying a tweet a news reporter sent, about Peter Tatchell's assessment of Mandela:
Quote
Peter Tatchell: Mandela ranks alongside Ghandi, but got it wrong on HIV, poverty + Mugabe
Quote from: mongers on December 06, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
Just copying a tweet a news reporter sent, about Peter Tatchell's assessment of Mandela:
Quote
Peter Tatchell: Mandela ranks alongside Ghandi, but got it wrong on HIV, poverty + Mugabe
Gandhi got it wrong on the Nazis, industry, and rights of women.
Quote from: PDH on December 05, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
It's not like he was running around McVeighing up South Africa. But Americans have a particular disconnect when it comes to synthesizing the moral applications of violence when it comes to people who don't wear uniforms. Violence is an option for the oppressor, never the oppressed. Fits within their selective notions of good and evil.
It's either Gandhi or Patton for them, there's nothing in between.
Seedy hates Americans.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2013, 09:47:20 AM
Quote from: PDH on December 05, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
It's not like he was running around McVeighing up South Africa. But Americans have a particular disconnect when it comes to synthesizing the moral applications of violence when it comes to people who don't wear uniforms. Violence is an option for the oppressor, never the oppressed. Fits within their selective notions of good and evil.
It's either Gandhi or Patton for them, there's nothing in between.
Odd.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2013, 09:47:20 AM
Quote from: PDH on December 05, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
It's not like he was running around McVeighing up South Africa. But Americans have a particular disconnect when it comes to synthesizing the moral applications of violence when it comes to people who don't wear uniforms. Violence is an option for the oppressor, never the oppressed. Fits within their selective notions of good and evil.
It's either Gandhi or Patton for them, there's nothing in between.
Most of the men who fought in the Revolution didn't wear uniforms and they're still glorified.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 06, 2013, 10:00:03 AM
Most of the men who fought in the Revolution didn't wear uniforms and they're still glorified.
I'd say most of them wore some sort of uniform.
Is it true that Mandela was still in the US terrorist watchlist until 2008?
Quote from: The Larch on December 06, 2013, 10:14:59 AM
Is it true that Mandela was still in the US terrorist watchlist until 2008?
We don't like black people who use violence against oppression. Makes them all uppity and hatnot. We prefer them to go to church and bitch about it there instead.
Careful, dear. You are becoming as one note as Marti.
I wonder if Seedy's mom is washing his dashikis now that he's back at home :hmm:
Not my problem political violence is a foreign concept to Americans. Lucky for us, though.
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 10:42:53 AM
I wonder if Seedy's mom is washing his dashikis now that he's back at home :hmm:
I haven't worn mine in forever. :(
Was it a Kwanzaa present from your aunt? She still off the Kwanzaa? :(
Quote from: PDH on December 05, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
Well said
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 11:02:54 AM
Was it a Kwanzaa present from your aunt? She still off the Kwanzaa? :(
No. I think it was actually my father's.
I don't know if she is - but I know that her daughter is all about it now. I think my aunt finally gave up on having her African name.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 06, 2013, 11:04:11 AM
Quote from: PDH on December 05, 2013, 10:03:33 PM
The thing is, I am not sure they were serious missteps. He had a militant period, but it seems pretty clear he was fighting injustice and tyranny. When it came time to make peace, he not only did so, he worked hard to include even those who worked on the side of injustice. The measure of the man is not that he might have fought when it was time to fight, but that he was willing to forgive when it was time to forgive. South Africa is not Zimbabwe for a reason, and I think that is the legacy of Mandela. Now let's see if others can live up to that.
Well said
Not really. Posting that on Languish, PDH is endorsing a Marxist terrorist.
Really? You think that's a majority view here?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2013, 09:47:20 AM
It's not like he was running around McVeighing up South Africa. But Americans I have a particular disconnect when it comes to synthesizing the moral applications of violence when it comes to people who don't wear uniforms. Violence is an option for the oppressor, never the oppressed. Fits within their my selective notions of good and evil.
It's either Gandhi or Patton for them me, there's nothing in between.
Fixed your projection problem.
One of you Languish people with money really ought to give Seedy a job.
I'd give him a job, but with the stipulation that he relocate to this conservative little corner of Ohio :menace:
I'll give Seeedy a job. Shinning my boots.
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
Really? You think that's a majority view here?
No, you guys have rewritten your history on how Mandela was viewed.
Quote from: grumbler on December 06, 2013, 11:45:51 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2013, 09:47:20 AM
It's not like he was running around McVeighing up South Africa. But Americans I have a particular disconnect when it comes to synthesizing the moral applications of violence when it comes to people who don't wear uniforms. Violence is an option for the oppressor, never the oppressed. Fits within their my selective notions of good and evil.
It's either Gandhi or Patton for them me, there's nothing in between.
Fixed your projection problem.
:lol: You go Seedy. Dont let the esatblished elite keep you down.
Quote from: Tamas on December 06, 2013, 11:47:34 AM
One of you Languish people with money really ought to give Seedy a job.
I offered him one. He turned me down. -_-
Seedy has gone full Chomsky. You never go full Chomsky. :(
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 06, 2013, 01:46:59 PM
Seedy has gone full Chomsky. You never go full Chomsky. :(
Hey when you worked for Phil Gramm did you ever ask him why he voted against the South African Sanctions?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 02:16:11 PM
Hey when you worked for Phil Gramm did you ever ask him why he voted against the South African Sanctions?
:lol: I just posted in the soccer and movie threads. You should respond to those too.
You've been slacking the last couple weeks and you have a lot of ground to make up.
QuoteThe Zionist Text books where they distort and re-write history to make them the everlasting victors......yes, I have read those books too and it's full of errors and bull shit!!
Facebook :rolleyes:
History records the Zionists as everlasting victors? Man I would hate to know the truth about the outcome of the Bar Kokhba Revolt then.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 06, 2013, 02:21:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 02:16:11 PM
Hey when you worked for Phil Gramm did you ever ask him why he voted against the South African Sanctions?
:lol: I just posted in the soccer and movie threads. You should respond to those too.
You've been slacking the last couple weeks and you have a lot of ground to make up.
Were they about Phil Gramm? Anyway, I think you understand what I'm getting at here, don't you?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 05:21:14 PM
Were they about Phil Gramm? Anyway, I think you understand what I'm getting at here, don't you?
I have a hunch. You only have about three plays in your play book.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
Really? You think that's a majority view here?
No, you guys have rewritten your history on how Mandela was viewed.
Go on.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 06, 2013, 05:40:47 PM
I have a hunch. You only have about three plays in your play book.
And two of them are card tricks.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
Really? You think that's a majority view here?
No, you guys have rewritten your history on how Mandela was viewed.
I'm not savvy to the arguments about Mandela being evil. How do you respond to the AIDS thing?
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 05:54:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
Really? You think that's a majority view here?
No, you guys have rewritten your history on how Mandela was viewed.
Go on.
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 03:02:16 AM
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
How Mandela was viewed by the GOP in the 80s has little to do with how he's viewed by Languish in 2013.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2013, 04:47:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 03:02:16 AM
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
How Mandela was viewed by the GOP in the 80s has little to do with how he's viewed by Languish in 2013.
Do you have a point?
Did you have one?
People are allowed to change their minds Raz after seeing how history turned out.
Ingmar Bergman stopped being a Hitler fan in 1946.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 07, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
People are allowed to change their minds Raz after seeing how history turned out.
There is a changing minds and changing history. And when you side with those who wrongly persecuted someone you should be at least a little sorry. Give it some time, and you'll find some one who'll claim that Mandela was a conservative!
Well, that didn't take long. http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/12/06/limbaugh-whitewashes-his-past-attacks-on-mandel/197187
Wonder if they'll do the same for Obama
It's sociable not to heap invective on the recently deceased. Just accept it Raz, it's one of those facets of human behavior that you don't understand.
Quote from: chipwich on December 06, 2013, 09:41:28 PM
I'm not savvy to the arguments about Mandela being evil. How do you respond to the AIDS thing?
I never read or heard anything about Mandela and AIDS. I think the knock on him, to the extent there is one at all, is that he didn't speak out against his bonehead successor's beliefs and policies.
Quote from: Neil on December 07, 2013, 09:24:28 AM
It's sociable not to heap invective on the recently deceased. Just accept it Raz, it's one of those facets of human behavior that you don't understand.
Seems okay thing to do on Languish, if it wasn't Tuna my still be here.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2013, 04:47:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 03:02:16 AM
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
How Mandela was viewed by the GOP in the 80s has little to do with how he's viewed by Languish in 2013.
I think he's saying Languish in 2013 is full of GOP leaders from the 80s.
I'm Pierre DuPont.
Quote from: derspiess on December 07, 2013, 07:27:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2013, 04:47:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 03:02:16 AM
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
How Mandela was viewed by the GOP in the 80s has little to do with how he's viewed by Languish in 2013.
I think he's saying Languish in 2013 is full of GOP leaders from the 80s.
I'm Pierre DuPont.
I'm Bob Dole.
Quote from: derspiess on December 07, 2013, 07:27:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 07, 2013, 04:47:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 03:02:16 AM
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
How Mandela was viewed by the GOP in the 80s has little to do with how he's viewed by Languish in 2013.
I think he's saying Languish in 2013 is full of GOP leaders from the 80s.
I'm Pierre DuPont.
Think harder Derspeiss.
Just think about this, Raz. Mandela allowed people to change, to take what they were saying at the present as the truth. He allowed people to change, to repudiate their actions as long as they lived up to their new words. He obviously had hard feelings and pain, he obviously had anger and resentment, but he allowed people to change.
We have all been asses, we have all sponsored causes that proved to be idiotic. Some of us have even backed such things as regimes that were evil and awful. Still, it is important to allow humans to own up to their mistakes and use that to become better.
I am sure there are those on this board who 20 years ago did not think Mandela would be an ANC terrorist again (though most are too young to really remember), but given what he did after that those people have said that he ended up immensely important.
Or, in other words, give it a rest. Even those whom you might imagine as his enemies have said they respect the man.
(don't bother to reply to this. I won't engage you in a pseudo debate)
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
Aren't there some here that do that already? We already have/had the Chavez supporters.
Chavez is a douche. El Caballo is a horse of a different color. Chavez isn't fit to carry Castro's combat boots.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
We'll find he was actually a conservative fighting against the liberals Kennedy and Batista.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
Josephus will be mourning the loss of his American-free vacation spot.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 10:23:46 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
We'll find he was actually a conservative fighting against the liberals Kennedy and Batista.
Can you really not tell the difference between Languish and the right-wing news sites that you and Hans frequent? :hmm:
Since it's immaterial, I really don't care.
As a point of fact, Batista was a liberal.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
Castro was a cunt, as was his henchmen Guevara.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 07, 2013, 10:50:02 PM
Castro was a cunt, as was his henchmen Guevara.
He's not that bad. By communist standards he's a saint.
And he's a very useful object lesson on the joys of income equality.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
The best thing I can say about Castro is that he was born the same year as my Dad.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2013, 11:04:00 PM
And he's a very useful object lesson on the joys of income equality.
Because income inequality was so much better.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 11:06:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2013, 11:04:00 PM
And he's a very useful object lesson on the joys of income equality.
Because income inequality was so much better.
Just think how much you'd be enjoying it if you were back in the saddle.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 11:06:18 PM
Because income inequality was so much better.
I thought that was self evident.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2013, 11:29:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 11:06:18 PM
Because income inequality was so much better.
I thought that was self evident.
Not for most Cubans in the 1950's, it wasn't.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2013, 10:44:35 PM
As a point of fact, Batista was a liberal.
Along with Hitler.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 11:43:59 PM
Not for most Cubans in the 1950's, it wasn't.
And thus the usefulness of the object lesson.
I wonder what Al Haig would think of Seedy's Castro fanboyism.
Quote from: derspiess on December 08, 2013, 12:36:46 AM
I wonder what Al Haig would think of Seedy's Castro fanboyism.
I probably could've convinced him in reducing the number of monthly CIA-sponsored operations against Cuban economic interests during the Nixon Administration to about half, from 4 or 5 to maybe 2 a month.
Quote from: derspiess on December 08, 2013, 12:36:46 AM
I wonder what Al Haig would think of Seedy's Castro fanboyism.
What would your fellow Republicans think of you praising a Black Radical Socialist lawyer and community organizer turned President.
At least some Conservatives remember.
The message says "No one has commented yet". OK, so what's to say? Mandela was a cold blooded, communist, murderer. Rather redundant, to be sure, but that's the part that leftists don't want to hear anyone say because the truth hurts.
Exactly right. The MK were ruthless scum. And the ANC has set SA back decades. It's the story of Arfica.
Top commenters from the Breitbart site.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/12/07/Cornel-West-We-Are-Witnessing-the-Santa-Clausification-of-Nelson-Mandela (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/12/07/Cornel-West-We-Are-Witnessing-the-Santa-Clausification-of-Nelson-Mandela)
Breitbart is no where near mainstream.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 05, 2013, 05:07:17 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520
:(
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.krugerrandgoldcoins.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F03%2Fkruger-rand-1oz-1981.jpg&hash=28ea952333d2bfeaf3afebb5d3f4d355edd63980)
Quote from: Razgovory on December 07, 2013, 03:02:16 AM
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 05:54:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2013, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
Really? You think that's a majority view here?
No, you guys have rewritten your history on how Mandela was viewed.
Go on.
Many Conservative politicians in this country opposed Mandela's efforts and called him a terrorist back in the 1980's.
As someone pointed out earlier, terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology. And yeah, lots of people thought that if the ANC took power, Mandela would become a 2-bit dictator like Mugabe or Amin (though not crazy like Amin). And frankly, you were a fool if you didn't at least acknowledge that it was a possibility that he would rule as a dictator. He proved his doubters wrong--he proved to be a better man than he could have been. And now people, including many of those same doubters, are praising him for that.
I don't see that as re-writing history.
Yes, and they called him a terrorist primarily because of his ideology. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=799&dat=19900207&id=J3tPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vlEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5176,4007216 Here's a Op-Ed written by Buckley back in 1990 where he decries the idea of Majority rule. He makes the bad joke of showing concern over minority rights in a country where the majority of it's citizens lacked political rights.
Raz has some of the weirdest hangups sometimes. It's like he's not happy unless we're badmouthing Mandela.
Quote from: derspiess on December 08, 2013, 09:15:02 PM
Raz has some of the weirdest hangups sometimes. It's like he's not happy unless we're badmouthing Mandela.
I disliking the rewriting of history.
Quote from: derspiess on December 08, 2013, 09:15:02 PM
Raz has some of the weirdest hangups sometimes. It's like he's not happy unless we're badmouthing Mandela.
It would appear we broke him.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 08, 2013, 07:16:16 PM
Yes, and they called him a terrorist primarily because of his ideology. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=799&dat=19900207&id=J3tPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vlEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5176,4007216 Here's a Op-Ed written by Buckley back in 1990 where he decries the idea of Majority rule. He makes the bad joke of showing concern over minority rights in a country where the majority of it's citizens lacked political rights.
QuoteI disliking the rewriting of history.
First, Mandela was called a terrorist primarily because the ANC had sometimes used terrorist tactics.
Second, I still don't see the rewriting of history here. I mentioned that the fears of most conservatives (and even some liberals) had as to how Mandela would govern once South Africa got majority rule. We were wrong about that, and we respect and salute Mandela for proving us wrong. Saying that we never had those fears or doubts about him would be rewriting history, but I don't see anyone on Languish doing that.
Quote from: dps on December 08, 2013, 06:20:51 PM
As someone pointed out earlier, terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology. And yeah, lots of people thought that if the ANC took power, Mandela would become a 2-bit dictator like Mugabe or Amin (though not crazy like Amin). And frankly, you were a fool if you didn't at least acknowledge that it was a possibility that he would rule as a dictator. He proved his doubters wrong--he proved to be a better man than he could have been. And now people, including many of those same doubters, are praising him for that.
I don't see that as re-writing history.
I think you have identified the issue exactly. We do not praise Mandela today because what he did was expected. He is universally praised (and I would say loved) because what he did was so exceptional and unexpected.
Mrs. Obama doesn't look happy with our PM. It's breaking news here that she got to sit next to Obama.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fliep.dk%2Fthorning.jpg&hash=dc277a4342816cd0b8ba7edac93a3b2b8fb41179)
Quote from: Razgovory on December 08, 2013, 09:16:13 PM
I disliking the rewriting of history.
Who's rewriting it?
Apartheid had lots of useful idiots in the West. We know this. But it's not a political point now.
This memorial's amazing. The crowd do not like Zuma :mellow:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
What's your beef with Castro?! He ask for your help, you turn him down & then you get angry when he turns to the only other option.
Cry me a river.
There's criticism in Austria that instead of the head of state they sent someone a few notches down (the head of the states' federal chamber). The president, in the meantime, is going to Germany instead, where he will hold a speech at a memorial for Willy Brandt's 100th birthday.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 10, 2013, 08:30:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
What's your beef with Castro?! He ask for your help, you turn him down & then you get angry when he turns to the only other option.
Cry me a river.
Are you talking to me?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 10, 2013, 10:18:57 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 10, 2013, 08:30:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
What's your beef with Castro?! He ask for your help, you turn him down & then you get angry when he turns to the only other option.
Cry me a river.
Are you talking to me?
Yes, you, as America.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 10, 2013, 08:30:41 AM
What's your beef with Castro?! He ask for your help, you turn him down & then you get angry when he turns to the only other option.
Cry me a river.
IS this pseudo-history of your own making, or something you learned in school, or what?
If this kind of over-simplification and obfuscation of a complex truth is what passes for "history" in Quebec, that actually explains a lot.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/obama-selfie_n_4419349.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 10, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Who's rewriting it?
Apartheid had lots of useful idiots in the West. We know this. But it's not a political point now.
It wasn't much of a political point at the time either. What was more to the point was to the point was the Cold War and South Africa's strategic minerals and location.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2013, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 10, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Who's rewriting it?
Apartheid had lots of useful idiots in the West. We know this. But it's not a political point now.
It wasn't much of a political point at the time either. What was more to the point was to the point was the Cold War and South Africa's strategic minerals and location.
What do you mean by not much of a political point at the time?
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 10, 2013, 02:12:07 PM
What do you mean by not much of a political point at the time?
I mean there were not any supporters of apartheid qua apartheid.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2013, 02:19:45 PMI mean there were not any supporters of apartheid qua apartheid.
I think that's a bit problematic.
There were also a number of bigoted politicians who sympathised with the apartheid regime and rationalised that support. As I say they didn't necessarily support apartheid but they were useful idiots. They also used Cold War politics to really marginalise and attack anti-apartheid campaigners who were treated very dismissively, in this country at least.
Also I think the tack you take does down conservative figures who, even in the 80s, were on the right side of this - such as Newt Gingrich or Mitch McConnell.
Quote from: Liep on December 10, 2013, 11:51:35 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/obama-selfie_n_4419349.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
I considered posting that myself... this link in the piece is gold http://selfiesatfunerals.tumblr.com/
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 10, 2013, 08:30:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I fully expect Fidel Castro to get some love around here as well when he passes away, PDH.
What's your beef with Castro?! He ask for your help, you turn him down & then you get angry when he turns to the only other option.
Cry me a river.
America's beef with Castro is that expatriated Cubans in Florida are a powerful voting bloc. Their beef with Castro probably has something to do with their property being expropriated and having to start over from scratch...
Now let us praise famous men, with sign language:
QuoteInterpreter for deaf at Mandela memorial service was a fake, advocates for deaf say
JOHANNESBURG - He made waves with his arms, touched his forehead and reached out with an embracing motion. And as the official interpreter for the deaf watching the Nelson Mandela memorial event on Tuesday, he stood right behind the world's most powerful leaders including President Obama.
And he was a fake, advocates for the deaf say.
Web sites and radio shows here were flooded with condemnations of the African National Congress-led government and the organizers of the Mandela memorial event at FNB Stadium in Soweto for failing to figure out whether the man who claimed to be interpreting for the deaf was simply waving his arms around.
"Please get RID of this CLOWN interpreter, please!" Bruno Peter Druchen, head of the Deaf Federation of South Africa, tweeted during the memorial event at a stadium in Soweto.
[Read a transcript and get analysis of Obama's speech]
"ANC linked interpreter on stage is causing embarrassment amongst deaf ANC supporters. Please get him off," added Wilma Newhoudt, a deaf member of the South African Parliament and vice president of the World Federation of the Deaf.
But the man remained on stage and on Wednesday his performance became the focus of a new storm of criticism. People who phoned an afternoon radio call-in show said that it showed inept hiring, insensitivity to the deaf, and a serious security lapse on the part of the event organizers. And, they said, it marred the solemn event by distracting attention from Mandela and the world leaders who came to pay tribute to him.
It was not immediately clear who the man was or how he got on stage. According to the Associated Press, Collins Chabane, one of South Africa's two presidency ministers, said the government is investigating and "will report publicly on any information it may establish."
White House officials directed questions about the interpreter to the South African government, but gave no indication there were concerns about President Obama's security arising from the discovery.
"I think the point is that he apparently was not translating him into anything, but was enjoying the opportunity to be on the stage," Josh Earnest, the principal deputy White House Press Secretary said Wednesday at the daily briefing. "It would be a shame if a distraction about an individual who's on stage, in any way detracted from the importance of that event and the importance of President Mandela's legacy."
It was the latest controversy in a week devoted to remembering Mandela. President Jacob Zuma was booed by the crowd at the FNB stadium, rain kept "overflow" stadiums largely empty, and on Wednesday lines of people waiting to see Mandela's body in state snaked their way through a hot, jam-packed parking lot while a single security check point slowed progress.
Many viewers of the Tuesday event noticed that the man was using the same gestures over and over again. Druchen tweeted that the man "is not using sign language at all."
Sign language interpreter Francois Deysel tweeted, "please can someone ask the interpreter to step down from stage, it is embarrassing and making a mockery of our profession."
Video clips show that this wasn't the man's first performance. He was the interpreter at the ANC's Mangaung policy conference in the Free State last year. He interpreted the controversial song "Shoot the Boer" led by Zuma during his election campaign. When Zuma said people would run, the man pumped his arms up and down. Often his gestures were the same as Zuma's. (Boer is a term for white Afrikaners.)
Druchen observed that the phony interpreter "knows that the deaf cannot vocally boo him off. Shame on him!"
Interpreters are not unusual in multilingual South Africa, where large groups of people speak either English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa or other African languages. Druchen recommended that sign be made the country's twelfth official language.
Sign language interpreters and others in the United States and around the world also expressed outrage at the incident.
"We, along with many other organizations, are disappointed with the process that selected the interpreter that was shown on camera for the Mandela service, and feel that a great disservice was done to both the South African signing community, and the international signing community," the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf Inc., based in Alexandria, Va., said in a statement.
The World Association of Sign Language Interpreters, based in Australia, said: "This situation stresses the need for continued public education about the formal training required to be a qualified sign language interpreter and the need for interpreter and deaf associations to collaborate on pressing governments for standards."
The National Association of the Deaf, based in Silver Spring, Md., said interpreters must be vetted.
"Each country has its own national sign language and sometimes even regional sign languages," the association said. "In the United States, we use American Sign Language (ASL) while in South Africa, most people use South African Sign Language (SASL), which is distinct and uses different signs than ASL. We, at the NAD, cannot assess the qualifications or fluency or lack thereof of the interpreter in this video, but are informed by the South African deaf and hard of hearing community that this interpreter is not legitimately interpreting in SASL."
One expert in the United States who reviewed video of the event said problems with the purported interpretation were easy to see.
"When I watch him, he appears to be doing a lot of repetitive hand motion. It doesn't look like any natural sign language to me," said Melanie Metzger, chair of the department of interpretation at Gallaudet University, a prominent school for the deaf and hard of hearing in Washington D.C. "What he's doing is not matching the speaker. He's not interpreting the speaker."
Metzger said another tipoff was that the man onstage used minimal facial expressions. Authentic interpreters around the world, she said, make extensive use of eyebrows, cheeks and other parts of the face to communicate in sign language.
It wasn't sign language. It was the hand jive:
Merkel and Harper and Cameron
Doin' that hand jive just for fun
Jacob Zuma sent them all in a run
When he did the hand jive with his machine gun
Hand jive, hand jive, do that crazy hand jive
I was thinking earlier between the Obama bit, the fake signer, the booing at Zuma and Desmond Tutu getting his house robbed...who knew it would be such an exciting event?
Cats & Dogs! Together!
Or at least Republican and Democrat presidents, together: http://www.policymic.com/articles/76375/8-photos-you-didn-t-see-from-obama-s-trip-to-south-africa
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2013, 08:10:58 PM
Cats & Dogs! Together!
Or at least Republican and Democrat presidents, together: http://www.policymic.com/articles/76375/8-photos-you-didn-t-see-from-obama-s-trip-to-south-africa
I dont see the problem, unless you believe the hype or are a ideological Kool-aid drinker. Ex-prez club is quite unique and bet they have a blast when they reporters arent around.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 11, 2013, 08:34:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2013, 08:10:58 PM
Cats & Dogs! Together!
Or at least Republican and Democrat presidents, together: http://www.policymic.com/articles/76375/8-photos-you-didn-t-see-from-obama-s-trip-to-south-africa
I dont see the problem, unless you believe the hype or are a ideological Kool-aid drinker. Ex-prez club is quite unique and bet they have a blast when they reporters arent around.
Except for Carter. What a buzzkill.
Yeah. I get the impression most British ex-Prime Ministers don't really get on. I can't imagine Brown and Cameron are friendly, I think Major hated Thatcher who was also loathed by Heath. I doubt Blair and Brown are even civil, though I imagine Blair will always try to keep in touch with whoever's in power. Major and Cameron get on very well though.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2013, 08:39:34 PM
Yeah. I get the impression most British ex-Prime Ministers don't really get on. I can't imagine Brown and Cameron are friendly, I think Major hated Thatcher who was also loathed by Heath. I doubt Blair and Brown are even civil, though I imagine Blair will always try to keep in touch with whoever's in power. Major and Cameron get on very well though.
Sounds like they take themselves to seriously.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 11, 2013, 08:39:01 PM
Except for Carter. What a buzzkill.
James Earl Carter, Jr knows you hate him, and he hates you right the fuck back.
He should have stuck to the noble profession of farming peanuts. :(
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 11, 2013, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 11, 2013, 08:39:01 PM
Except for Carter. What a buzzkill.
James Earl Carter, Jr knows you hate him, and he hates you right the fuck back.
Didnt know you were a fan of Jimmy-C
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 11, 2013, 08:43:30 PM
James Earl Carter, Jr knows you hate him, and he hates you right the fuck back.
I doubt it. That would be un-Christian.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 11, 2013, 08:42:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2013, 08:39:34 PM
Yeah. I get the impression most British ex-Prime Ministers don't really get on. I can't imagine Brown and Cameron are friendly, I think Major hated Thatcher who was also loathed by Heath. I doubt Blair and Brown are even civil, though I imagine Blair will always try to keep in touch with whoever's in power. Major and Cameron get on very well though.
Sounds like they take themselves to seriously.
Well Heath hated Thatcher for taking the leadership from him and because he was generally a pretty unpleasant with a mean misogynist streak - no one liked Heath. Major disliked Thatcher because she was the sort of Queen over the water for all sorts of revolts that made his time in office so torrid. There's the TB-GBs for Blair and Brown, and I always got the sense Brown and Cameron personally loathed each other.
I'm not sure if it's taking themselves seriously or just that politics in the UK, I think, is often a lot more personal and intimate. In almost all cases they beat each other either within their parties or at an election. They would have fought and argued on a regular basis either over the Commons or within government. And there's none of them who get the dignity of being head of state. So I think it lingers longer.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 11, 2013, 08:42:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2013, 08:39:34 PM
Yeah. I get the impression most British ex-Prime Ministers don't really get on. I can't imagine Brown and Cameron are friendly, I think Major hated Thatcher who was also loathed by Heath. I doubt Blair and Brown are even civil, though I imagine Blair will always try to keep in touch with whoever's in power. Major and Cameron get on very well though.
Sounds like they take themselves to seriously.
I think with President they generally succeed each other in a timetabled way, and few ever directly compete with each other in presidential races or other elections.
Whereas over here, it's about maintaining a working majority in parliament and control of your party, so at any time a PM can be loose a vote and perhaps eventually have to fight a losing election against the person who'll become both the successor and victor over them.
Plus of course there's all the options for continued infighting within a party and the risk of being deposed by the person who goes onto succeed you.
So I imagine that can explain much of the general lack of warmth between former UK prime ministers.
Quote from: mongers on December 11, 2013, 08:53:02 PM
Plus of course there's all the options for continued infighting within a party and the risk of being deposed by the person who goes onto succeed you.
And some PMs (like Thatcher) retain a cult following within their party which they kind of use to wreak havoc on their successors.
Sometimes there's just huge personality differences too. The story MacMillan used to tell of when he spoke to Maggie and said being Prime Minister's great because you don't have your own department to worry about, so you can spend more time reading and she stared at him like he'd spouted a new head :lol:
Quote from: mongers on December 11, 2013, 08:53:02 PM
I think with President they generally succeed each other in a timetabled way, and few ever directly compete with each other in presidential races or other elections.
Whereas over here, it's about maintaining a working majority in parliament and control of your party, so at any time a PM can be loose a vote and perhaps eventually have to fight a losing election against the person who'll become both the successor and victor over them.
Plus of course there's all the options for continued infighting within a party and the risk of being deposed by the person who goes onto succeed you.
So I imagine that can explain much of the general lack of warmth between former UK prime ministers.
Plus y'all can be a crabby, grumpy bunch. :)
I was always rather fond of watching Brit politics on C-span. Very entertaining.
Quote from: 11B4V on December 11, 2013, 08:58:37 PM
I was always rather fond of watching Brit politics on C-span. Very entertaining.
Yeah. So imagine being friendly if, like Major, you'd faced a baying mob of Labour MPs while Blair called you 'weak, weak, weak'. For example :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 11, 2013, 08:57:36 PM
Plus y'all can be a crabby, grumpy bunch. :)
I think we're quite friendly :Embarrass:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 11, 2013, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 11, 2013, 08:39:01 PM
Except for Carter. What a buzzkill.
James Earl Carter, Jr knows you hate him, and he hates you right the fuck back.
No, it isn't just Monkeybutt. I recall reading an article way back in the early days of the Clinton Presidency. President Clinton and all the living ex-Presidents at the time (Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Bush the Elder) all got along quite well away from the cameras except that none of them, including Clinton, liked Carter. I wouldn't say that they hated him, or even disliked him, but from what the article said, MB's term pretty much fit how they felt about about him.
Quote from: Savonarola on December 11, 2013, 05:16:02 PM
Interpreter for deaf at Mandela memorial service was a fake, advocates for deaf say
It wasn't sign language. It was the hand jive:
Merkel and Harper and Cameron
Doin' that hand jive just for fun
Jacob Zuma sent them all in a run
When he did the hand jive with his machine gun
Hand jive, hand jive, do that crazy hand jive
Lol :lol:
Seriously though, this really is being flagrantly insulting to the deaf people of South Africa.
Carter's problem was that he was too smart and thought too much. That is always a buzzkill.
That problem disappeared about 10 years ago.
Quote from: PDH on December 11, 2013, 09:44:20 PM
Carter's problem was that he was too smart and thought too much. That is always a buzzkill.
That and pussying around when Iran kidnapped our citizens.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 11, 2013, 10:29:03 PM
Quote from: PDH on December 11, 2013, 09:44:20 PM
Carter's problem was that he was too smart and thought too much. That is always a buzzkill.
That and pussying around when Iran kidnapped our citizens.
As opposed to, say, pussying around when Iran blew up 241 US Marines.
Yeah, but it's not problem then.
An ongoing situation is a much greater affront than a single act. And I'm sure they had plausible deniability in the event you mentioned.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 11, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
As opposed to, say, pussying around when Iran blew up 241 US Marines.
Yeah, Austria-Hungary didn't pussy around when Iran killed Archduke Ferdinand. :contract:
That's the model Carter and Reagan should have followed, because it worked so well for A-H.
The fake interpreter has said he was in the midst of a schizophrenic episode.
Quote from: garbon on December 12, 2013, 09:08:26 AM
The fake interpreter has said he was in the midst of a schizophrenic episode.
:pinch:
Quote from: grumbler on December 12, 2013, 07:10:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 11, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
As opposed to, say, pussying around when Iran blew up 241 US Marines.
Yeah, Austria-Hungary didn't pussy around when Iran killed Archduke Ferdinand. :contract:
That's the model Carter and Reagan should have followed, because it worked so well for A-H.
Don't play stupid, g. You're not as good at it as Raz is.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 12, 2013, 01:55:08 PM
Don't play stupid, g. You're not as good at it as Raz is.
:lol: You are usually better at telling tongue-in-cheek from merely stupid.
When I'm reading Languish I'm in the midst of a schizophrenic episode.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2F2013-12%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr06%2F12%2F13%2Fanigif_enhanced-buzz-24260-1386874110-8.gif&hash=9fbd8a975be772bf5f5603132ad1624f7ccdaac7)
Quote from: garbon on December 12, 2013, 09:08:26 AM
The fake interpreter has said he was in the midst of a schizophrenic episode.
I think the technical term is stark raving mad
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/12/21873839-violent-sign-language-interpreters-access-to-obama-triggers-investigation?lite
QuoteBy Alexander Smith, NBC News contributor
The vetting of a sign language interpreter who got within three feet of world leaders including President Barack Obama during Nelson Mandela's memorial was being investigated Thursday after organizers admitted they were unaware of his violent history of schizophrenic episodes.
Thamsanqa Jantjie, 34, was accused of gesticulating gibberish during Tuesday's service. Members of the deaf community said his movements did not resemble any recognized form of sign language and some groups accused him of being a "fake."
Jantjie told NBC News that he is currently receiving treatment for schizophrenia and had been violent in the past. He said he started hearing voices in his head during the Mandela event and hallucinated visions of angels flying into the stadium.
Asked by The Associated Press how often he had become violent in the past, he said "a lot," but he declined to provide details.
"There was nothing I could do. I was alone in a very dangerous situation," he said in a separate interview with Johannesburg's Star newspaper. "I tried to control myself and not show the world what was going on. I am very sorry. It's the situation I found myself in."
The South African government said at a press conference Thursday that "a mistake was made," adding that officials were "trying to establish what happened with the sign language interpreter."
Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu, the South African deputy minister for women, children and persons with disability, said that the government was investigating the whether the interpreter had been vetted before the memorial.
"I do not think he was just picked up off the street, he was from a school for the deaf," Bogopane-Zulu added. "Whoever saw him being able to communicate with his deaf peers, with his deaf friends, understood that he can speak sign language. [But] he could not translate. English was a bit too much for him...he became overwhelmed."
Jackson Mthembu, a spokesman for the ruling National African Congress party, told NBC News Thursday that he was concerned that Jantjie's qualifications or medical history had apparently not been taken into account before he was given close access to world leaders at the government-organized event.
"We are not aware that he was being treated for [schizophrenia]. He did not disclose it. That is another thing that is concerning to use because we are having this information for the first time," Mthembu said. "This man was close to many presidents, including our own. We are worried about when we have procured him for activities for our own services. That is what we are concerned about."
When asked about the incident during a briefing Thursday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said that President Obama was "not concerned" at any point during the trip.
He said the U.S. Secret Service had "worked very hard on this trip, which came about on short notice, as they always do when it comes to the president's security," before adding: "Beyond that, I would refer you to the government of South Africa or the Secret Service."
NBC News security analyst James Cavanaugh said it was troubling that there were so many questions about a person who had been granted face-to-face access to world leaders.
"There should not be a person there if that person is not completely vetted and they know exactly who they are," said Cavanaugh, a retired special agent-in-charge for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). "There are too many terrorists in that region of the world to take even the slightest chance to have a person that's not really known that close to world leaders."
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In an email response to The Associated Press, Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan added that "agreed-upon security measures between the U.S. Secret Service and South African government security officials were in place" during the service.
White House spokesman Josh Earnest played down the incident.
"It's a shame that ... a service that was dedicated to honoring the life and celebrating the legacy of one of the great leaders of the 20th century has gotten distracted by this and a couple of other issues that are far less important than the legacy of Nelson Mandela," he told reporters on Wednesday.
Jantjie told Talk Radio 702 he was employed by a company called SA Interpreters. The company declined to comment when contacted by NBC News on Thursday.
Bogopane-Zulu, the government minister, said officials had tried to track down the company's owners but they appeared to have "vanished into thin air."
According to Jantjie, he was paid a $85 day rate for appearing at the Mandela memorial.
Bogopane-Zulu pointed out that most qualified sign language interpreters charge $125 to $165 per hour in South Africa and speculated that a junior official might have opted for the cheapest quote.
The Deaf Federation of South Africa said on Wednesday that it had submitted a formal complaint to the ANC about Jantjie's interpretation after an event in 2012.
But Mthembu, the ANC spokesman, said he was not aware of the complaint and that the party was looking into the matter.
Mthembu said that although Jantjie had appeared as a sign language interpreter at political events on a voluntary basis in the past, the party had not recommended him to the government for the Mandela memorial.
"ANC will look at our procedures in view of what has transpired and in view of some information that is now in the public domain," he added.
Quote from: garbon on December 12, 2013, 05:01:36 PM
****blatantly racial overtones gif****
:lol:
WHERE ALL DA WHITE WIMMIN AT
Only in the Black Panther sense.
Holy crap!
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/12/16/thamsanqa_jantjie_bogus_mandela_signer_allegedly_helped_burn_men_to_death.html
QuoteYep, the Story of the Bogus Mandela Signer Just Got Even Crazier
By Josh Voorhees
Photo by Alexander Joe/AFP/Getty Images
We now have a pretty good idea why Thamsanqa Jantjie—aka the "fake" sign language interpreter from last week's Nelson Mandela memorial—was charged with murder back in 2003.* According to the Associated Press, which got the story from one of Jantjie's cousins and three of his friends, he was among a group of people "who accosted two men found with a stolen television and burned them to death by setting fire to tires placed around their necks":
But Thamsanqa Jantjie never went to trial for the 2003 killings when other suspects did in 2006 because authorities determined he was not mentally fit to stand trial, said the four. They insisted on speaking anonymously because of the sensitivity of the fake signing fiasco, which has deeply embarrassed South Africa's government and prompted a high-level investigation into how it happened. ...
Instead of standing trial, Jantjie was institutionalized for a period of longer than a year, the four said, and then returned to live in his poor township neighborhood on the outskirts of Soweto. At some point after that, they said, he started getting jobs doing sign language interpretation at events for the governing African National Congress Party.
That story matches up with the broad strokes offered by Jantjie in a separate interview with the Sunday Times over the weekend. "It was a community thing, what you call mob justice, and I was also there," he told the paper. According to the AP, so-called "necklacing" was a fairly common killing tactic used during the fight against apartheid by blacks on blacks suspected of aiding the white government. It was also used in tribal disputes in the 1980s and 90s, although appears to have been used rarely as a form of mob justice against thieves.
The revelation that Jantjie—a man who again was only feet from President Obama and other world leaders on Tuesday—has a lengthy criminal past first came to light on Friday thanks to the reporting of a South African news channel that uncovered a number of allegations, including the 2003 murder charge. The original report, however, were lacking most details, in part because South Africa's National Prosecuting Authority wasn't able to provide them and in part because the case files concerning the 2003 incident were, for reasons that still aren't clear, empty.
South African officials, meanwhile, continue to investigate how Jantjie—despite his violent past and inability to, you know, use sign language—landed the high-profile gig on stage in Johannesburg.
*Correction Monday, Dec. 16: Due to a typo, an earlier version of this post misstated the year that Jantjie was charged with murder. It was 2003, not 2013.
***Follow @JoshVoorhees and the rest of the @slatest team on Twitter.***
Way to go there, Secret Squirrel advance team.