Iraqi police complicit in gay slayings

[Berkut]

As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.

Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?

If it was so bad that the society tolerated people murdering you out of hand, then in fact it would be "fucking stupid" to openly proclaim your status as someone the society wishes (and in fact does) murder out of hand.

[DGuller]

Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?

I would feel dirty about using those exact words, but yeah, if you had a chance to conceal your Jewishness in Third Reich and save yourself (at no cost to other Jews or any other obvious disclaimer), you would be highly imprudent to not take it.  Yes, you'd be a coward, but sometimes being a coward is the most sensible option.

[garbon]

No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.

No, it gets out the ludicrousness of your example. I recognize that the image of a Jew protesting outside of Auschwitz is much more compelling image of someone stupid than of a Jew just walking about in a society that despises him.  Unfortunately, as the situation was more of the latter, your rhetorical trick has failed.

[Valmy]

Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

Whether it is courageous or stupid depends alot on how informed you are.  If you know full well what the consequences are but you do it anyway out of a sense of justice that is courageous.  If you are just so self-centered and unaware that you just do whatever you want having no idea what the consequences are then you are stupid.  I would hope anybody doing the transexual thing in a Shi'ite part of the Muslim world would have no illusions about what that might mean for them.

[The Brain]

We, and presumably others in the Western world, are discussing gay rights in Iraq thanks to those who died.

[Martinus]

Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?

They probably wont.

Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.

Do you think they are?

I think the only thing they are accomplishing is

1. Getting themselves killed, and

2. hardening the feelings of largely ignorant people about homosexuals.

I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?

[garbon]

It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.

Do you think they are?

Yes, homosexuality is something that will not be able to be ignored.  If they slink quietly into their closets, their is no reason for anyone to ever care.

[garbon]

I would hope anybody doing the transexual thing in a Shi'ite part of the Muslim world would have no illusions about what that might mean for them.

Well considering that they have friends and family members dying, I think they get it.

[Martinus]

Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?

I would feel dirty about using those exact words, but yeah, if you had a chance to conceal your Jewishness in Third Reich and save yourself (at no cost to other Jews or any other obvious disclaimer), you would be highly imprudent to not take it.  Yes, you'd be a coward, but sometimes being a coward is the most sensible option.

Well I would probably be a coward, too. Hell, I'm a coward in Poland, despite the fact that I do not face any serious persecution. That doesn't give me a right to call those courageous enough "fucking stupid" - I have some basic decency left to know that thanks to those "fucking stupid" individuals my lot is eventually improved.

[garbon]

I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?

Take someone like derspeiss.  He gets irritated by the shenanigans of gay rights activitis and decided to vote against gay marriage.

[Martinus]

I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?

Take someone like derspeiss.  He gets irritated by the shenanigans of gay rights activitis and decided to vote against gay marriage.

Well I wouldn't bother if it was posted by derspeiss, but I'm curious why Berkut thinks so.

[Berkut]

Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.

People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.

Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.

Oh, so there weren't black people/slaves standing up incensed about what was being done to them?  I think it is fucked up to say that minorities should just shut up and take it.

Who said there were not? You are on some kind of strawman marathon.

However, even in slave times, a black man was not casually murdered without repercussions, so the comparison fails.

In cases where being a minority was so hated that in fact death was the result, then yeah, there weren't too many standing up and demanding to be recognized - the issue is not one of recognition, because the problem is not that people refuse to recognize them. THe problem is that they want to kill them.

I agree that it is fucked up to say that minorities should "just shut up and take it". Who the hell is saying that, so we can all feel self-righteous about slamming them?

How exactly do you see gay rights ever coming about in Iraq if there is no one who is interested in them?

i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.

I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?

Why?

[Berkut]

No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.

No, it gets out the ludicrousness of your example. I recognize that the image of a Jew protesting outside of Auschwitz is much more compelling image of someone stupid than of a Jew just walking about in a society that despises him.  Unfortunately, as the situation was more of the latter, your rhetorical trick has failed.

Uhh no, because in fact gays in Iraq are not in a 'society that despises them" they are in a society that feels they ought to and should kill them. So my "rhetorical trick" works just fine.

I notice your rhetorical trick of ignoring the consequences of your position (which is easy to do for the gay guy living in San Francisco) while demanding that other gay people stand up for their identity and be murdered on principle because YOU know their life is "not worth living" is going strong though.

[Martinus]

i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.

I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?

Why?

If your son or daughter, or a sibling, or a friend, gets murdered for being gay, it puts a human face on a "freak", the "abomination". Sure, murder is an extreme case but the same mechanism has worked in the West when it comes to gay rights movement - the single most powerful thing causing people to rethink their attitude towards GLBT people was someone from their close circle of family and friends coming out. Then it is no longer the boa-wearing, painted giant-penis-float riding freak from the pride parade, but a human being you know.

Now, the change of these proportions does not come over night - it took decades if not centuries in the West, to reach the point we have now, but that's how it started.

Hell, it's visible even in Poland - sure, homophobia in the society is probably now higher than it was 20 years ago - but so is visibility. You no longer have people who don't "know any gays" - people are forced to take sides. It's painful, but it's the only way.

[Berkut]

It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.

Do you think they are?

Yes, homosexuality is something that will not be able to be ignored.  If they slink quietly into their closets, their is no reason for anyone to ever care.

Not the case at all. There are other ways to make the issue come to light, and more improtantly, the issue is not really about homosexi=ulity at the core - it is about intolerance of ANY non-conformists.

The solution is going to be a shift in the society away from intolerance in general, and then homosexuallity will be at least barely tolerated. THEN you can start working on acceptance.

Look at somewhere like Turkey, for example.