Iraqi police complicit in gay slayings

[Berkut]

I don't understand how what they are doing is accomplishing your point no. 2. Care to explain?

Take someone like derspeiss.  He gets irritated by the shenanigans of gay rights activitis and decided to vote against gay marriage.

meh, not a terrible example, but bviously radically different in scale.

most people in Iraq probably don't think much about gays, and if

i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.

I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?

Why?

If your son or daughter, or a sibling, or a friend, gets murdered for being gay, it puts a human face on a "freak", the "abomination".

Did you read the article?

The people doing the murdering are, more often than not, relatives of the freaks.

[Neil]

So many Jews were at least partially at fault for their deaths?

Some certainly were.

[Martinus]

It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.

Do you think they are?

Yes, homosexuality is something that will not be able to be ignored.  If they slink quietly into their closets, their is no reason for anyone to ever care.

Not the case at all. There are other ways to make the issue come to light, and more improtantly, the issue is not really about homosexi=ulity at the core - it is about intolerance of ANY non-conformists.

The solution is going to be a shift in the society away from intolerance in general, and then homosexuallity will be at least barely tolerated. THEN you can start working on acceptance.

Look at somewhere like Turkey, for example.

This is the paradox/conundrum of the global village. In the age of internet and global information access, some people are no longer content to wait a generation or two before the Change(tm) comes to their corner.

It's a relatively recent phenomenon to be able to tell whether it speeds up the social change or not. But Poland went over 20 years through the same kind of change the US went over 50 years, so I think it's working.

[Martinus]

Did you read the article?

The people doing the murdering are, more often than not, relatives of the freaks.

Do you have evidence that ALL of their relatives and friends are happy about them being killed?

Gays are disowned by parents and rebuked by friends in the West even today. That does not mean that what I said is untrue.

[Berkut]

i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.

I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?

Why?

If your son or daughter, or a sibling, or a friend, gets murdered for being gay, it puts a human face on a "freak", the "abomination". Sure, murder is an extreme case but the same mechanism has worked in the West when it comes to gay rights movement - the single most powerful thing causing people to rethink their attitude towards GLBT people was someone from their close circle of family and friends coming out. Then it is no longer the boa-wearing, painted giant-penis-float riding freak from the pride parade, but a human being you know.

The problem here is that that works (and has worked) in the West, over the last what, 10-20 years? 50 years?

Iraqi/Muslim society is not the West of the last 50 years. More like the West of....500 years ago? I don't know - when was the last time that people routinely murdered gays in large numbers without anyone batting an eye?

You are projecting a culture and context on them that is inapplicable.

[Berkut]

Did you read the article?

The people doing the murdering are, more often than not, relatives of the freaks.

Do you have evidence that ALL of their relatives and friends are happy about them being killed?

Gays are disowned by parents and rebuked by friends in the West even today. That does not mean that what I said is untrue.

It means that you are trying to run before you can even crawl.

In the West, if your family is intolerant and ignorant, they rebuke you or disown you.

In Iraq, they murder you.

You cannot see the difference here?

You do not understand that that difference means that prudence suggests that perhaps the same response is not in order, and not productive?

[garbon]

However, even in slave times, a black man was not casually murdered without repercussions, so the comparison fails.

In cases where being a minority was so hated that in fact death was the result, then yeah, there weren't too many standing up and demanding to be recognized - the issue is not one of recognition, because the problem is not that people refuse to recognize them. THe problem is that they want to kill them.

That's simply not true.  Christian religious minorities stood up all the time. They out and out refused to pretend. And it wasn't an issue of recognition either, their opponents didn't want them to exist.

I agree that it is fucked up to say that minorities should "just shut up and take it". Who the hell is saying that, so we can all feel self-righteous about slamming them?

You said that gays shouldn't be the ones standing up for themselves in Iraq as they will be killed. The only alternative is to shut up and take it...with the vague hope that someone will intervene.

i don't pretend to understand that culture well enough to know what would be the most effective way to get the masses to change their views towards gays.

I guess you do, and you think having gays identify themselves and be summarily murdered is in fact the best way?

Why?

Acutally you are the one so committed to the idea that gays can't change minds that way:

A gay guy in Iraq is not going to accomplish anything - the environment is not such that any good will come of their stand - Iraq is not at a place where such a demonstration can have anything but a negative effect on their movement.

[garbon]

I notice your rhetorical trick of ignoring the consequences of your position (which is easy to do for the gay guy living in San Francisco) while demanding that other gay people stand up for their identity and be murdered on principle because YOU know their life is "not worth living" is going strong though.

Are you kidding me? I'm not advocating that people have to stand up at all.  In fact, I know that I would be too cowardly to stand up for myself. I was too cowardly to come out in high school.  What I can't stand is the idea that these courageous individuals are somehow stupid or fucking stupid for taking a stand.

[garbon]

I don't know - when was the last time that people routinely murdered gays in large numbers without anyone batting an eye?

No one bats an eye?

[Berkut]

Acutally you are the one so committed to the idea that gays can't change minds that way:

The results rather speak for themselves.

But I can be convinced - where is your evidence that in fact all these dead gays are changing Iraqis views towards homosexuality?

[Martinus]

I notice your rhetorical trick of ignoring the consequences of your position (which is easy to do for the gay guy living in San Francisco) while demanding that other gay people stand up for their identity and be murdered on principle because YOU know their life is "not worth living" is going strong though.

Are you kidding me? I'm not advocating that people have to stand up at all.  In fact, I know that I would be too cowardly to stand up for myself. I was too cowardly to come out in high school.  What I can't stand is the idea that these courageous individuals are somehow stupid or fucking stupid for taking a stand.

Exactly.

[Neil]

I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.

[Martinus]

I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.

Get lost. Do your trolling some other time.

[Berkut]

I don't know - when was the last time that people routinely murdered gays in large numbers without anyone batting an eye?

No one bats an eye?

Did you read the article?

There is no investigation, no outrage, and prominent Muslim clerics seem to be rather tolerant of the idea that killing them is good policy.

But liek I said - I can be convinced. Show me otherwise. I am just going by what that article and others like it have shown. You clearly know much more about this than I do, since you are sure these guys being killed are making great strides for gay rights in Iraq. Share with us.

[The Brain]

I'm getting rather offended at having Jews compared to gays.

Are you Ernst Röhm?