Iraqi police complicit in gay slayings

[garbon]

Nice strawman.

I think the only thing that has been said is that if you are gay and live somewhere like Iraq, you are an idiot of you are not being rather circumspect about it. That doesn't mean that there "won't be any trouble", it just means that you won't be dead.

Unless of course, one would like Iraq to someday be a place where gay people can walk about openly.

[Berkut]

So you can be partly responsible but not share in any of the fault?

Regardless, I'd suggest that living in a country is a bit different from hanging around with people who want to kill you.  I'm actually a bit puzzled to hear everyone suggest that minorities should just blend in and there won't be any trouble.

I think to not do so is very courageous.  But it is just not a smart thing to do if not getting killed is something important to you.

The people who joined up with MLK were courageous and did have some responsibility for taking on a role that was likely to get them hurt or killed.  But they felt that possibility was worth the risk.

I guess 'fault' means to me that somehow they got what they deserved or that somehow if I was putting somebody on trial for the murder we could consider it a suicide.  That is a bit different.

Ahh, but the difference is that the people who did that made a reasoned judgement about the risk and the potential good their risk could do - and they accomplished something.

A gay guy in Iraq is not going to accomplish anything - the environment is not such that any good will come of their stand - Iraq is not at a place where such a demonstration can have anything but a negative effect on their movement.

[Berkut]

Nice strawman.

I think the only thing that has been said is that if you are gay and live somewhere like Iraq, you are an idiot of you are not being rather circumspect about it. That doesn't mean that there "won't be any trouble", it just means that you won't be dead.

Unless of course, one would like Iraq to someday be a place where gay people can walk about openly.

The path to that place, however, does not include walking around openly gay today, I suspect. In fact, I bet it has the opposite effect.

[garbon]

I think to not do so is very courageous.  But it is just not a smart thing to do if not getting killed is something important to you.

The people who joined up with MLK were courageous and did have some responsibility for taking on a role that was likely to get them hurt or killed.  But they felt that possibility was worth the risk.

I guess 'fault' means to me that somehow they got what they deserved or that somehow if I was putting somebody on trial for the murder we could consider it a suicide.  That is a bit different.

I understand...however, I would not be quick to say that those people who joined up with MLK were stupid for challenging the status quo.

[Razgovory]

Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?

They probably wont.

It didn't change for the Jews who stayed either.

[Valmy]

It didn't change for the Jews who stayed either.

Fortunately most societies are not like the Third Reich.

[garbon]

The path to that place, however, does not include walking around openly gay today, I suspect. In fact, I bet it has the opposite effect.

Well we only live once and I don't really see that any of them would like your suggestion of hiding in terror in their closets...even if, after all, it's for their own safety!

What you are suggesting, seems rather counter to human nature/history.  While it might look stupid to you, minority groups generally don't like to sacrifice their identities. Persecution of religious minorities in Europe is a good example of that.

[Berkut]

It didn't change for the Jews who stayed either.

Fortunately most societies are not like the Third Reich.

When it comes to gays, many fundamentalist Muslim societies are very much like the Third Reich.

And standing at the gates of Auschwitz demanding that you be recognized as a proud Jew might be "brave", but it is mostly just stupid. It will not accomplish anything.

[garbon]

When it comes to gays, many fundamentalist Muslim societies are very much like the Third Reich.

And standing at the gates of Auschwitz demanding that you be recognized as a proud Jew might be "brave", but it is mostly just stupid. It will not accomplish anything.

Were the gays in question protesting outside of a mosque? I was of the opinion that they were on their way to a cafe.

[Berkut]

The path to that place, however, does not include walking around openly gay today, I suspect. In fact, I bet it has the opposite effect.

Well we only live once and I don't really see that any of them would like your suggestion of hiding in terror in their closets...even if, after all, it's for their own safety!

What do you think gay people do who aren't interviewed for news stories, or the ones in Saudia Arabia?

Or the ones in Poland, for that matter?

What you are suggesting, seems rather counter to human nature/history.  While it might look stupid to you, minority groups generally don't like to sacrifice their identities.

They do not have to sacrifice their identities, they have to hide them. The alternative is that they are dead. I think that is sacrificing your life, and I am pretty sure your identity is reliant on your life.

Persecution of religious minorities in Europe is a good example of that.

Indeed, and when the persecution was so bad as to include the extermination of those minorities, standing up and demanding to be noticed as such a minority, while noble, isn't very smart, and does no good.

[Berkut]

When it comes to gays, many fundamentalist Muslim societies are very much like the Third Reich.

And standing at the gates of Auschwitz demanding that you be recognized as a proud Jew might be "brave", but it is mostly just stupid. It will not accomplish anything.

Were the gays in question protesting outside of a mosque? I was of the opinion that they were on their way to a cafe.

Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.

[Berkut]

What you are suggesting, seems rather counter to human nature/history. 

You know, if we accept the idea that homosexuality is relatively common and genetic, then in fact throughout human history gays ahve being "in the closet" for the most part. So actually eing out of the closet is what is counter to human history.

This is a good thing of course, but I don't know what your point is here - do you think them being openly gay is worth their lives? Do you think it will make the situation any better for gay people in Iraq?

[garbon]

What do you think gay people do who aren't interviewed for news stories, or the ones in Saudia Arabia?

Or the ones in Poland, for that matter?

Well I've never been interviewed for a news story...

Also, of what relevance is Marty's cowardice?

They do not have to sacrifice their identities, they have to hide them. The alternative is that they are dead. I think that is sacrificing your life, and I am pretty sure your identity is reliant on your life.

Is that a life worth living?

Indeed, and when the persecution was so bad as to include the extermination of those minorities, standing up and demanding to be noticed as such a minority, while noble, isn't very smart, and does no good.

I'd argue the opposite. Without people standing up and saying this is fucked, things would never improve.  There could never have been a civil rights movement, if the groundwork hadn't been laid in the century prior.

[garbon]

Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.

Actually it does. After all, were the Jews in question protesting outside of Auschwitz?

[garbon]

You know, if we accept the idea that homosexuality is relatively common and genetic, then in fact throughout human history gays ahve being "in the closet" for the most part. So actually eing out of the closet is what is counter to human history.

I don't think so. The sense of a gay identity is something fairly recent. The trouble is, once you agree that being gay is an identity, it is hard to close Pandora's box, so to speak.

This is a good thing of course, but I don't know what your point is here - do you think them being openly gay is worth their lives? Do you think it will make the situation any better for gay people in Iraq?

If they feel so, then yes. Without openly gay people, I don't see how the situation in Iraq will ever improve (in that regard).