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Iraqi police complicit in gay slayings

Started by Martinus, April 15, 2009, 01:48:25 AM

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The Brain

Their liberators don't allow them, why should the Iraqis?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Ed Anger

Quote from: The Brain on April 15, 2009, 12:31:35 PM
Their liberators don't allow them, why should the Iraqis?

I blame the Mormons.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

derspiess

Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.

A little common sense goes a long way. 
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Martinus

Quote from: Syt on April 15, 2009, 11:47:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 11:43:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 10:11:09 AM
I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.
Yeah. If only all the retarded Jews in Germany in 1930s shaved off their beards, put on some Hilterjugend uniforms and stopped going to synagogues, Holocaust wouldn't have happened. They have noone to blame but themselves.

Didn't you watch Europa Europa? :rolleyes:
Of course I did. Agnieszka Holland is my favourite Polish movie director. :P

derspiess

Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:08:17 PM
I understand...however, I would not be quick to say that those people who joined up with MLK were stupid for challenging the status quo.

They would have been if the entire U.S. were like the south was.  I think that would be a more apt comparison to the situation with gays in Iraq. 

It's not like there's an entire region (constituting more than 50% of the population) that is largely sympathic to gay rights.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

DGuller

As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.

Martinus

Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?

They probably wont.
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

Berkut

Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:23:26 PM


I'd argue the opposite. Without people standing up and saying this is fucked, things would never improve.  There could never have been a civil rights movement, if the groundwork hadn't been laid in the century prior.

Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.

People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.

Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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garbon

Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:40:37 PM
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

:yes:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2009, 12:39:40 PM
As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.
Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?

Berkut

Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:24:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:19:27 PM
Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.

Actually it does. After all, were the Jews in question protesting outside of Auschwitz?

No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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garbon

Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:41:21 PM
Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.

People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.

Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.

:blink:

Oh, so there weren't black people/slaves standing up incensed about what was being done to them?  I think it is fucked up to say that minorities should just shut up and take it.

How exactly do you see gay rights ever coming about in Iraq if there is no one who is interested in them?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Berkut

Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2009, 12:39:40 PM
As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.

indeed.

There is standing up for what is right, then there is basic common sense.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Martinus

Quote from: Berkut on April 15, 2009, 12:41:21 PM.Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.
I think you are wrong. In fact, all historical precedents show that it is quite the opposite - whether we are talking about Christians in ancient Rome, slaves demanding freedom or gays demanding their rights.

Berkut

Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2009, 12:40:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2009, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?

They probably wont.
Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.

Do you think they are?

I think the only thing they are accomplishing is

1. Getting themselves killed, and

2. hardening the feelings of largely ignorant people about homosexuals.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
0 rows returned