Iraqi police complicit in gay slayings

[The Brain]

Their liberators don't allow them, why should the Iraqis?

[Ed Anger]

Their liberators don't allow them, why should the Iraqis?

I blame the Mormons.

[derspiess]

I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.

A little common sense goes a long way. 

[Martinus]

I like that the plan that because people threaten you with violence, you should pretend to be something else.

Yeah. If only all the retarded Jews in Germany in 1930s shaved off their beards, put on some Hilterjugend uniforms and stopped going to synagogues, Holocaust wouldn't have happened. They have noone to blame but themselves.

Didn't you watch Europa Europa?

Of course I did. Agnieszka Holland is my favourite Polish movie director.

[derspiess]

I understand...however, I would not be quick to say that those people who joined up with MLK were stupid for challenging the status quo.

They would have been if the entire U.S. were like the south was.  I think that would be a more apt comparison to the situation with gays in Iraq. 

It's not like there's an entire region (constituting more than 50% of the population) that is largely sympathic to gay rights.

[DGuller]

As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.

[Martinus]

Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?

They probably wont.

Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

[Berkut]

I'd argue the opposite. Without people standing up and saying this is fucked, things would never improve.  There could never have been a civil rights movement, if the groundwork hadn't been laid in the century prior.

Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.

People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.

Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.

[garbon]

Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

[Martinus]

As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.

Would you call people who did not conceal their Jewishness "fucking stupid" though?

[Berkut]

Doesn't really matter. They were making their identity clear in a context where there are people willing to kill them for it and a society willing to tolerate and even encourage such killing. The Jews all got trucked off to Auschwitz to be killed - the Iraqis seem rather content just killing them while they are on the way to the cafe.

Actually it does. After all, were the Jews in question protesting outside of Auschwitz?

No, because any that did were killed. Do no, it does not matter. Their destination when they decided to walk around in a murderous society full of people who wanted to kill them is a red herring.

[garbon]

Again the strawman - you cannot ague the opposite, and then promptly argue a position that is not the opposite of my own.

People should stand up and say that this isn't right - but those people should not be gay people, since that will just result in them being killed.

Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.

Oh, so there weren't black people/slaves standing up incensed about what was being done to them?  I think it is fucked up to say that minorities should just shut up and take it.

How exactly do you see gay rights ever coming about in Iraq if there is no one who is interested in them?

[Berkut]

As a Jew in Ukraine, I thought it would be beneath myself to try to conceal my Jewishness (although I could have).  However, in 1990ies Ukraine, being openly Jewish meant some extra harassment and getting into a couple of extra fights.  Had I been facing a very realistic chance of death for being Jewish, I would've obviously swallowed my pride and done a sensible thing.  Well, my family did a sensible thing anyway, we left that hellhole.

indeed.

There is standing up for what is right, then there is basic common sense.

[Martinus]

.Change does not happen via inflaming a bigoted public. Standing up and demanding to be recognized makes good sense when it can do some good and not simply get you killed.

I think you are wrong. In fact, all historical precedents show that it is quite the opposite - whether we are talking about Christians in ancient Rome, slaves demanding freedom or gays demanding their rights.

[Berkut]

Of course, if everyone reacts that way, how will things ever change (for the better)?

They probably wont.

Then, what these gays etc. are doing is rather heroic, isn't it? Now, it is probably not very useful in terms of individual self-preservation and while I agree that you cannot condemn people for not being heroic, implying that people who are acting in a heroic way are somehow stupid or retarded is also quite wrong.

It would be heroic if they were accomplishing something.

Do you think they are?

I think the only thing they are accomplishing is

1. Getting themselves killed, and

2. hardening the feelings of largely ignorant people about homosexuals.