Mass shooting in San Bernadino

[Valmy]

When you say 'so and so many people die every year to gun violence' it does give the impression of homicides IMO. It might be good to note that this includes accidents and suicides just so people understand what is being said.

[The Minsky Moment]

There is a pretty good correlation between warming surface temperatures and the rise of radical Islamic terrorism.

It's the decline of pirates with parrots that's doing it.  That's been scientifically proven.

R-squared FTW

[miozozny]

That number includes suicides tho.

Are those not dead people? Or are you trying to suggest that said people would kill themselves even if they didn't have a gun?

A number of them, yes. Not all of course. I think there's data outthere that proves that more people survive a suicidal pass when access to guns is harder.

Apparently some studies concerning the Australian gun laws point to it.
"Other studies are more hesitant to draw conclusions about homicides, but generally agree that the law did a lot to reduce suicides."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/

[Berkut]

When you say 'so and so many people die every year to gun violence' it does give the impression of homicides IMO. It might be good to note that this includes accidents and suicides just so people understand what is being said.

Should I define any other words in that statement as well, in case people don't know (for instance) that "years" includes leap years, so sometimes it might be 366 days instead of 365?

Whatever - the point I am making is not at all reliant on whether or not people intuitively understand that it does or does not include suicides and little Johnny accidently shooting his sister.

The idea that anyone could see these kinds of numbers and think "Well yeah, that is bad, but since some of those dead people were only dead because of an accident, it is ok" is morally bankrupt.

[katmai]

CNN is reporting, investigating official are saying a link with ISIS has been established. Further the wife posted on Facebook her alliance to the leader of ISIS.

Investigators are saying this is looking more and more like self radicalization.

No link yet.

Yeah that is what I thought.

Hey a comfortably middle class guy in the First World becomes a radical fundy and commits acts of terrorism. I thought these guys were supposed to be forced into this because of their bleak economic realities?

what some people will do for poon/love/yada yada

[Valmy]

When you say 'so and so many people die every year to gun violence' it does give the impression of homicides IMO. It might be good to note that this includes accidents and suicides just so people understand what is being said.

Should I define any other words in that statement as well, in case people don't know (for instance) that "years" includes leap years, so sometimes it might be 366 days instead of 365?

Whatever - the point I am making is not at all reliant on whether or not people intuitively understand that it does or does not include suicides and little Johnny accidently shooting his sister.

The idea that anyone could see these kinds of numbers and think "Well yeah, that is bad, but since some of those dead people were only dead because of an accident, it is ok" is morally bankrupt.

I think it informs on the dangers of guns actually and clarifies what is being said. It wasn't at you specifically just these kinds of stats in general.

[DGuller]

It does seem to matter whether the damage is inflicted against someone's will or not.  Smoking laws in theory are designed to protect people from second-hand smoke.  In practice they're of course designed to protect people from themselves, but for whatever reasons it was necessary to engage in this useful lying to actually save millions of lives.

[garbon]

Or are you trying to suggest that said people would kill themselves even if they didn't have a gun?

Don't know about Grey Fox, but I will assert that.  I do not see the evidence that the availability of a gun increases the likelihood of someone acting on their suicidal ideations by a statistically significant degree.  It may well increase the likelihood of success, but that is a somewhat different moral debate.

Well I disagree. I think removing tools that people can use does cut down on the extent to which a suicide actually takes place. I doubt said person is going to suddenly go - hey hanging might be a fun way.

[KRonn]

This is looking more and more like radical Islam, ISIS and AQ inspired. FBI is now saying that Husband had reached out to AQ and wife had pledged allegiance to ISIS. Wife may have been the radicalized one first in her home country.

All those guns and thousands of rounds of ammo, 7k rounds. Given that a box of ammo costs 50 bucks, maybe more now; it's been a long time since I've seen prices for ammo. Plus the tactical gear, explosives and the gear to work them are similar to AQ tactics. Lots of people seen coming and going from the home, lots of deliveries. They had to have help setting all that stuff up and acquiring all the ammo and bombs, other members of a cell.

The couple planted several bombs in the building to detonate remotely when first responders arrived. That's probably why they didn't immediately flee the general area. Bombs didn't go off; speculation that the sprinkler system shorted something out, or another reason.

It seems possible that there was another primary target, that the party either was just the first step or the couple chose that instead. Because it seems a bit unlikely that they'd have so much help, ammo and gear for this attack when they had the makings to attack something much larger, and maybe do so with others in their cell.  There's likely a cell of people to pull all this gear/ammo/bombs together and the money needed.

They did this at a Christmas party, seems a setting that such radicals would go to. Again, was this the primary target or one of opportunity for the couple going it alone? Plus as said, it looks like they had planted bombs to set off with the first responders.

[grumbler]

I don't think there is real scientific consensus on that yet. It is a strong theory though.

Pirate/Parrot-denier!   

[grumbler]

Who's doing that?

You are, but please deny that you are.

[grumbler]

Or are you trying to suggest that said people would kill themselves even if they didn't have a gun?

Don't know about Grey Fox, but I will assert that.  I do not see the evidence that the availability of a gun increases the likelihood of someone acting on their suicidal ideations by a statistically significant degree.  It may well increase the likelihood of success, but that is a somewhat different moral debate.

Yeah, it is surely crazy talk to imagine that access to a tool which humans have specifically designed to efficiently kill humans would have a profound impact on the ability to humans to actually kill humans, whether they be themselves or others.

Argument dismissed as non-responsive.

[grumbler]

Well I disagree. I think removing tools that people can use does cut down on the extent to which a suicide actually takes place. I doubt said person is going to suddenly go - hey hanging might be a fun way.

This begs the question that suicide is, itself, intrinsically bad.

[Berkut]

Well I disagree. I think removing tools that people can use does cut down on the extent to which a suicide actually takes place. I doubt said person is going to suddenly go - hey hanging might be a fun way.

This begs the question that suicide is, itself, intrinsically bad.

I actually do not think that suicide is in itself necessarily bad.

I do think that the vast majority of people who commit suicide do so for "bad" reasons, and as a society we should in fact takes reasonable steps to avoid most of them.

[garbon]

What B said.