[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[HVC]

Another point, that I think is often overlooked, is if the left has a blind eye to popular sentiment and doesn't address the issue, whatever it may be (not just immigration), then the right will. And while the left could and should have a compassionate and "fair" resolution, I don't think the right will. So in the end it'll be worse for legal residents who don't yet have citizenship. Canadas right might not go full Trump expulsion but they'd be much more likely to go in that vein than the liberals or NDP.

[Valmy]

Another point, that I think is often overlooked, is if the left has a blind eye to popular sentiment and doesn't address the issue, whatever it may be (not just immigration), then the right will.

Maybe. The Democrats went very right on immigration starting with Obama deporting and deporting and deporting and deporting. Biden did the same thing. You very rarely will even see a Democrat saying that immigration is good anymore. They have been working so hard to demonstrate they are also hard on immigration.

Didn't make a bit of difference. The Republicans just say the Democrats are for open borders and let all the criminals in. The fact that they don't doesn't matter.

So you have to call out the racism and say that immigration is good as central to your message. Then go through immigration reform to address real issues. Not bend over backwards to address fake ones invented by the right wing media machine, because you will never win.

[Jacob]

I can only use Canada as an example, because that what I'm most familiar with, but the immigration issue has usually polled favourably (I won't hazard the guess to say always) , but in the last decade, decade and a half it's gone done. This coincides with a marked increase in immigration numbers. Abuse of student loopholes and degree farms exploded. Now it could just be that Canada has gotten more racist. I suppose it's possible. Some blame racism of south East Asians, but I don't know why the general populace would dislike them more than say East Asians or Latin Americans.

Again, to cut off the usual languish avenues of "debate" I'm not saying racism plays no part. If people go off about immigrants pooping on the beach that's a clear indication that their thinking is suspect. But to dismiss all criticism or wish for reform as "those damn racists " seems disingenuous.

Who is saying "those damn racists"?

[HVC]

I can only use Canada as an example, because that what I'm most familiar with, but the immigration issue has usually polled favourably (I won't hazard the guess to say always) , but in the last decade, decade and a half it's gone done. This coincides with a marked increase in immigration numbers. Abuse of student loopholes and degree farms exploded. Now it could just be that Canada has gotten more racist. I suppose it's possible. Some blame racism of south East Asians, but I don't know why the general populace would dislike them more than say East Asians or Latin Americans.

Again, to cut off the usual languish avenues of "debate" I'm not saying racism plays no part. If people go off about immigrants pooping on the beach that's a clear indication that their thinking is suspect. But to dismiss all criticism or wish for reform as "those damn racists " seems disingenuous.

Who is saying "those damn racists"?

I could be reading something you didn't intend, but the below reads to me like you're you're blaming a negative view on immigration on peoples beliefs is predicated, at least in part, on the belief that some immigrants are " bad, lazy ones". Sounds like a view a racist person would have.

It can work. Those (and those who vote for them) are the good, hardworking ones who are contributing positively to the economy (and who are already here). Those immigrants are great.

It's the bad, lazy ones that undermine the economy by draining services and making things unaffordable (and who aren't here, or if they are they're the ones in a different social or ethnic group than you personally) who are the problem.

It's even easier if you keep the definitions a bit fluid, so everyone (who can vote) can think of the bad immigrants as somebody else.

[HVC]

Another point, that I think is often overlooked, is if the left has a blind eye to popular sentiment and doesn't address the issue, whatever it may be (not just immigration), then the right will.

Maybe. The Democrats went very right on immigration starting with Obama deporting and deporting and deporting and deporting. Biden did the same thing. You very rarely will even see a Democrat saying that immigration is good anymore. They have been working so hard to demonstrate they are also hard on immigration.

Didn't make a bit of difference. The Republicans just say the Democrats are for open borders and let all the criminals in. The fact that they don't doesn't matter.

So you have to call out the racism and say that immigration is good as central to your message. Then go through immigration reform to address real issues. Not bend over backwards to address fake ones invented by the right wing media machine, because you will never win.

Yeah, fair enough. But then again your country seems to be broken and breaking in lots of fundamental ways. Maybe Canada isn't far off. We have our own Maple MAGAs (MCGAs?), but I can hope

[Jacob]

I could be reading something you didn't intend, but the below reads to me like you're you're blaming a negative view on immigration on peoples beliefs is predicated, at least in part, on the belief that some immigrants are " bad, lazy ones". Sounds like a view a racist person would have.

It can work. Those (and those who vote for them) are the good, hardworking ones who are contributing positively to the economy (and who are already here). Those immigrants are great.

It's the bad, lazy ones that undermine the economy by draining services and making things unaffordable (and who aren't here, or if they are they're the ones in a different social or ethnic group than you personally) who are the problem.

It's even easier if you keep the definitions a bit fluid, so everyone (who can vote) can think of the bad immigrants as somebody else.

Yeah that's 100% you reading something into that. That was an explanation of how one group of immigrants could be turned anti-immigrant, including against people from their own ethnic group (i.e. second and third generation immigrants complaining about recent 1st generation immigrants). The ability to divide groups people might think you belong to into "we are the good ones" and " those other ones that you don't like are the bad ones" is pretty damn common and often used to reconcile positions that on the face of it would look completely inconsistent, and it's not limited to issues of race.

I agree that it'd be ideal if we keep spurious accusations of racism out of the immigration debate*, but I think it would also be worthwhile to keep spurious accusations of "you're using accusations of racism as a rhetorical bludgeon" out of the debate as well.

*though I do think that people with racist and social disruption agendas are more than happy to feed racist points into the debate to increase the tension and support for their point of view. I think it's worthwhile for us to be alert to that as well.

[crazy canuck]

The King will attend the opening of Parliament

[Bauer]

Another point, that I think is often overlooked, is if the left has a blind eye to popular sentiment and doesn't address the issue, whatever it may be (not just immigration), then the right will. And while the left could and should have a compassionate and "fair" resolution, I don't think the right will. So in the end it'll be worse for legal residents who don't yet have citizenship. Canadas right might not go full Trump expulsion but they'd be much more likely to go in that vein than the liberals or NDP.

I think there are fundamental flaws with both "left" and "right" at conceptual levels.  With the left it seems to be that progressiveness seems to lead to permissiveness, and then it leads to stupid counter reactions.

Another example is drugs and crime. 

[Bauer]

The King will attend the opening of Parliament

Guessing thats probably the biggest gesture of support he can make to our sovereignty in his dignified pompous royal capacity.

Also I found Carneys first presser to be great.  He sounds like a man in charge, with a plan he intends to execute.  Like a CEO but not the kind that bankrupts all his companies.

[crazy canuck]

The King will attend the opening of Parliament

Guessing thats probably the biggest gesture of support he can make to our sovereignty in his dignified pompous royal capacity.

Also I found Carneys first presser to be great.  He sounds like a man in charge, with a plan he intends to execute.  Like a CEO but not the kind that bankrupts all his companies.

I was thinking the same thing, on both points 

[jimmy olsen]

Australian conservative coalition just got annhilated. Did way worse than their Canadian counterparts.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2025/may/03/australian-federal-election-2025-live-news-today-anthony-albanese-labor-peter-dutton-liberal-coalition-greens-polls-vote-odds-results-politics-latest-updates

[Josephus]

If you can read this, I think it's a decent article from the toronto star about why many Toronto suburbs flipped to the Conservatives

here

[crazy canuck]

Pay wall

[Josephus]

Pay wall

bah...it was supposed to be gifted. Must have done something wrong.

[Jacob]

Australian conservative coalition just got annhilated. Did way worse than their Canadian counterparts.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2025/may/03/australian-federal-election-2025-live-news-today-anthony-albanese-labor-peter-dutton-liberal-coalition-greens-polls-vote-odds-results-politics-latest-updates

Great news!