[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[saskganesh]

A lot of immigrants vote Conservative. Have you looked at your backbench? Hello?

[Barrister]

Federally, Joe Clark defeated Trudeau in 1979 - and I'm pretty sure he'd be considered a Red Tory.

Joe Clark is the ur-Red Tory.  And the textbook example of why you don't go red Tory.  He was PM for nine months.

Remember Clark was the PC leader in the 90s.  He did not in fact lead to a resurgence of the PC Party.

It was only when Clark resigned, again, when MacKay won the leadership, that allowed the CA/PC merger, which eventually allowed Harper to win.

[Barrister]

A lot of immigrants vote Conservative. Have you looked at your backbench? Hello?

And?

Nobody (at least me) is suggesting the Conservatives go full nativist, anti-immigrant.

But lawful immigrants to Canada are skeptical about some of the temporary-worker visa shenanigans.  It's purely anecdotal, but I'll cite my sister-in-law.

[Jacob]

A lot of immigrants vote Conservative. Have you looked at your backbench? Hello?

It can work. Those (and those who vote for them) are the good, hardworking ones who are contributing positively to the economy (and who are already here). Those immigrants are great.

It's the bad, lazy ones that undermine the economy by draining services and making things unaffordable (and who aren't here, or if they are they're the ones in a different social or ethnic group than you personally) who are the problem.

It's even easier if you keep the definitions a bit fluid, so everyone (who can vote) can think of the bad immigrants as somebody else.

[Jacob]

Joe Clark is the ur-Red Tory.  And the textbook example of why you don't go red Tory.  He was PM for nine months.

Better than going Preston Manning, Stockwell Day, or Pierre Poilievre who've each been PM for zero months

Remember Clark was the PC leader in the 90s.  He did not in fact lead to a resurgence of the PC Party.

It was only when Clark resigned, again, when MacKay won the leadership, that allowed the CA/PC merger, which eventually allowed Harper to win.

Fair point.

That would lead me to conclude that Conservatives in Canada seem to win when they balance the Praire Reform faction with the East Coast Red Tory PC faction, as Harper did. That is not, IMO, evidence that leaning predominantly into the right flank is the correct way forward.

Sure, you can play footsie with the far right. But maybe you should also play footsie with the Red Tory types rather than reject them as being "not real Conservatives."

If Poilievre had been able to appeal more to Ford voters in Ontario and Houston voters in Nova Scotia, he might well be prime minister today.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah Mulroney ran as a Blue Tory?  So then why did the Reformers decide to leave BB?

The Reformers just can't bring themselves to admit that the PC's did very well until they split the party asunder.

[viper37]

Nobody (at least me) is suggesting the Conservatives go full nativist, anti-immigrant.

Uh... Have looked and listened to the PCC rhetoric?
The PQ and the BQ have been called racist for much, much, much less.

[saskganesh]

Anyway, the Conservatives have more seats in Ontario than Alberta. And in Ontario, there is room to grow.

If you want to talk about losers, the Conservatives have now lost 4 elections in a row playing footsie with fanatics.

But let's not pile on BB anymore. There's still hockey.

[HVC]

But let's not pile on BB anymore. There's still hockey.

The jets suck!

[Zoupa]

Nobody (at least me) is suggesting the Conservatives go full nativist, anti-immigrant.

Uh... Have looked and listened to the PCC rhetoric?
The PQ and the BQ have been called racist for much, much, much less.

Ca compte pas quand ca vient du Qc. Le baseline c'est qu'on est tous des racistes en partant de toute facon.

[Bauer]

Wouldn't it be nice to start political debates with high level statements / agreements then drilling down upon implementation of them.

On immigration i find it hard to believe there are any significant numbers of people who don't respect it.   We can/should be able to agree that it is a valued part of our society while at the same time agreeing there is healthy sustainable number the society can absorb.

Therefore the debate really is about where that healthy number is, which is a totally different conversation.

But it seems the left extreme calls anything calling for less immigration racist,  and the right extreme hiding real racism behind the conversation.

[Valmy]

and the right extreme hiding real racism behind the conversation.

I am jealous yours are still hiding it.

[crazy canuck]

@Bauer one of the significant sins Trudeau committed was politicizing getting vaccinated.  PP quickly joined in.

My hope is we don't see that with Carney. He is a boring banker, and that may reverse the polarization we are now experiencing.

[Jacob]

I'm going to respond to your comment in two separate posts, because I think there are two very different conversations to be had.

Wouldn't it be nice to start political debates with high level statements / agreements then drilling down upon implementation of them.

On immigration i find it hard to believe there are any significant numbers of people who don't respect it.  We can/should be able to agree that it is a valued part of our society while at the same time agreeing there is healthy sustainable number the society can absorb.

Therefore the debate really is about where that healthy number is, which is a totally different conversation.

I agree with your fundamental premise that there's probably an ideal number and mix of immigrants, and probably some number beyond which the strain on society is too much for us to be comfortable with.

My main concern is when "immigration" becomes the scapegoat for the most controversial social issue of the day. Today it's housing (and cost of living, maybe); in the past it's been jobs and crime.

But I'm curious what you think a sustainable number is, or alternately what are the elements that go into arriving at that number.

[Jacob]

... and this is a reply to the second strand of your post:

But it seems the left extreme calls anything calling for less immigration racist,  and the right extreme hiding real racism behind the conversation.

Maybe I've missed it, but I can't recall coming across anyone be called racist merely for calling for less immigration. As you say, there are elements of the extreme right who are chomping at the bit for disguising their racism and still be listened to and I expect they're being called out on occasion.

What are some of the most high profile examples of the left extreme calling people racist for lowering immigration?

Anecdotally, I've come across a non-trivial amount of straight up racism (usually directed at East Indians these days) which then leads into an attack on immigration; but I don't think that's what you're talking about.