Languish.org

I've given history, English, etc. a lot of shit over the past few days/weeks/years/the eons that we've coexisted uneasily together.  I don't think the fedgov should be in the business of sending people to school for such nonsense, let alone sticking them and taxpayers with the debt while transferring wealth to socially parasitic school administrators and professors.  I've also made it a point that I believe that history, literature, and so forth are hobbies; indeed, involving learning fewer marketable skills than most other hobbies do.  However, I think they probably have some small part to play in the basic education of our youth, if not our adult children, except for the ones getting teaching degrees in some lame subject like poetry, political science, or loserology.  It is up to the almighty State to destroy the redundant programs by turning off their money.

What say you?  Is there any reason to still teach people this crap?

P.S. languages I am not counting as liberal arts, as they involve actual skills training.  Archaeology and anthropology... maybe, maybe not.  Those are kind of real sciences, but I know little enough about their quality to say if they're worthless degrees or digging shit up and poking monkeys involves any economic value added.  But feel free to jump to your own conclusions!

Dude, you so have to get over your hang ups over your education.  It's reaching Raz heights.

:bleeding:

Yeah, give it a rest.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2013, 09:58:29 PM
Dude, you so have to get over your hang ups over your education.  It's reaching Raz heights.

Oh, go on.  Next week I'll have a new hang up.  Let this one breathe and live its life to its fullest till I forget about it and get really excited about mystery novels from the 1920s or something.

I believe that all education is a benefit to hahahaha just kidding who would vote for this option?

I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

:)

I'd say that if Yi and I basically agree on a position, it means it must be unambiguously right, only slightly less hard fact than the statements "the sky is blue" and "bears shit in the woods."

Quote from: Razgovory on April 17, 2013, 09:59:14 PM
Yeah, give it a rest.

:pinch:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

What's determines what is marketable and what isn't?

You are narrow minded and foolish. I hope you grow out of it one day.

Voted: hahaha

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2013, 10:30:12 PM
What's determines what is marketable and what isn't?

:unsure:

People getting jobs in their fields shortly after graduation.

At salaries sufficient to repay loans.

Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2013, 10:39:01 PM
You are narrow minded and foolish. I hope you grow out of it one day.

Voted: hahaha

As I knew you must.  Well met.

You should have went to ITT Tech.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:42:24 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2013, 10:30:12 PM
What's determines what is marketable and what isn't?

:unsure:

People getting jobs in their fields shortly after graduation.

At salaries sufficient to repay loans.

So... what would that be right now?

Quote from: 11B4V on April 17, 2013, 10:43:12 PM
You should have went

:pinch:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:42:24 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2013, 10:30:12 PM
What's determines what is marketable and what isn't?

:unsure:

People getting jobs in their fields shortly after graduation.

At salaries sufficient to repay loans.

I.e., quant.  They don't get it.  They haven't had the training.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

The trouble with that thinking is that you could have a kid who is destined to be the best historian ever, who would write the most amazing world changing books, but who due to his dad working in a factory is forced to go and become a mediocre engineer.



Its a difficult one.
Its not fair that the rich should have so much more opportunity open to them but at the same time its not fair you have these people studying fun degrees whilst others amongst us toil. I guess what is needed is for employers to wake up and realise that merely having a degree means nothing and anyone is capable of getting one if they have the patience. These degrees should become useless in actual fact, not just in theory, but still have them remain open to anyone....
But....that is still encouraging the would be great to go and pursue something he isn't too interested in.
Its tricky. I guess we need to have more cross-disciplinary stuff at uni. Have things be far more open for students of the hard sciences to take some history classes if it interests them.

Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2013, 11:34:05 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

The trouble with that thinking is that you could have a kid who is destined to be the best historian ever, who would write the most amazing world changing books, but who due to his dad working in a factory is forced to go and become a mediocre engineer.

If the kid is awesome, he or she will already be published, won awards, attended college-sponsored camps/conferences during high school, etc. Awesome people get recognized and get merit scholarships from a deluge of sources.

Some are even paid/recruited to not go to college and instead start working right away! :o

Much weight needs to be given to the humanities.  Have you ever seen the quality of critical thinking of people whose cultures' school systems only emphasize math and science? Yes, the average person's in Amerika may be abysmal too, but on average they're leaps and bounds ahead of math and science-heavy school system graduates.

Besides, people can figure out for themselves what they want to do and what makes sense for them much better than the state can.

Lastly, I respectfully suggest you move on from this "I was screwed by my education" shtick.  :)

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 17, 2013, 11:52:32 PM
Much weight needs to be given to the humanities.  Have you ever seen the quality of critical thinking of people whose cultures' school systems only emphasize math and science? Yes, the average person's in Amerika may be abysmal too, but on average they're leaps and bounds ahead of math and science-heavy school system graduates.

Source?

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:02:39 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 17, 2013, 11:52:32 PM
Much weight needs to be given to the humanities.  Have you ever seen the quality of critical thinking of people whose cultures' school systems only emphasize math and science? Yes, the average person's in Amerika may be abysmal too, but on average they're leaps and bounds ahead of math and science-heavy school system graduates.

Source?

Reality.

How was Ide screwed on his education?

He didn't make partner in PLJ's firm upon graduation.

If people do not learn to "think critically" by the end of high school, then that is maybe a lost cause. :(

Quote from: 11B4V on April 18, 2013, 12:05:14 AM
How was Ide screwed on his education?

He wasn't.  He got a law degree cause he wanted to be like John Edwards.

Ide, did you actually pass the bar or not?

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:08:29 AM
If people do not learn to "think critically" by the end of high school, then that is maybe a lost cause. :(

I haven't thought critically in like 15 years.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 17, 2013, 11:52:32 PM
Much weight needs to be given to the humanities.  Have you ever seen the quality of critical thinking of people whose cultures' school systems only emphasize math and science? Yes, the average person's in Amerika may be abysmal too, but on average they're leaps and bounds ahead of math and science-heavy school system graduates.

Agreed.  But as things stand right now that critical thinking ability is not rewarded sufficiently by the market to justify the cost.

And it's debatable whether critical thinking is a skill aquired by humanities majors at *all* schools.

QuoteBesides, people can figure out for themselves what they want to do and what makes sense for them much better than the state can.

Clearly not.  The great unwashed masses of high school students in the US have bought into the line that a college degree--any degree--is the ticket to the easy life.


[/quote]

Ide, imagine a generation growing up without being force fed basic humanities knowledge. Then imagine them raising children. Their children raising more children. Do you think that society has gotten better or worse in the interim?

QuoteClearly not.  The great unwashed masses of high school students in the US have bought into the line that a college degree--any degree--is the ticket to the easy life.

There are definitely examples of this (indeed, enough examples to warrant serious discussion and thought).  However, I also think this is a pretty recent phenomenon that has really only received significant press coverage in the past few years since the Financial Crisis. 

Obviously it's impossible to tell yet, but I would be surprised if more parents of students approaching college age (and the students themselves) weren't aware of this situation when it comes to choosing post-secondary options than would've been the case, oh, 5-10 years ago, and thus tailor their decisions accordingly.  Heck, I know if I had a kid, I'd try to steer him/her away from studying the humanities at college right now.   

Besides which, the other alternatives of the government steering kids into certain programs are just too unappealing for a democratic society.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 18, 2013, 12:27:12 AM
Ide, imagine a generation growing up without being force fed basic humanities knowledge. Then imagine them raising children. Their children raising more children. Do you think that society has gotten better or worse in the interim?

See a generation growing up without being force fed the body and blood of Christ. :(

The original - classical - intent of the liberal arts education was to give citizens the necessary skills to be active participants in civic life. Marketability is good, but entering the workforce/having a trade/etc is only one aspect of being a citizen.

My feeling is that you cannot (aside from some outliers who tend to prove the rule) achieve this goal without educating people in the sciences and the humanities.

"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 18, 2013, 12:42:12 AM
"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

:yes: Exactly this.

One of the problems with liberal arts *colleges* in particular these days is that many will allow a humanities major to escape school with barely any training in math or the sciences. That's no good. But it's no good to produce STEM drones either.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 18, 2013, 12:42:12 AM
"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

You want to build up people's character and wisdom so that they are resilient and adaptable to changing circumstances? How do I create a standardized test for that? :wacko:

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 12:36:46 AM
Besides which, the other alternatives of the government steering kids into certain programs are just too unappealing for a democratic society.

Don't have to worry about that, Mr. Santorum;  things like cutting Work Study Programs, Opportunity Grants and eventually Pell Grants are some of the other alternatives of the government steering kids into no programs at all.

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:45:28 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 18, 2013, 12:42:12 AM
"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

You want to build up people's character and wisdom so that they are resilient and adaptable to changing circumstances? How do I create a standardized test for that? :wacko:

:D

Antifragile citizens - that's the ultimate goal of a proper liberal arts education :contract:

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2013, 12:47:17 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 12:36:46 AM
Besides which, the other alternatives of the government steering kids into certain programs are just too unappealing for a democratic society.

Don't have to worry about that, Mr. Santorum;  things like cutting Work Study Programs, Opportunity Grants and eventually Pell Grants are some of the other alternatives of the government steering kids into no programs at all.

Yeah, on that, I probably should have specified "the government steering kids into certain programs in the manner suggested by some in this thread"... obviously grants and whatnaught currently exist and can be a good thing.

Don't most countries that pay for college give out scholarships based on what the economy needs?

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 12:40:48 AM
The original - classical - intent of the liberal arts education was to give citizens the necessary skills to be active participants in civic life. Marketability is good, but entering the workforce/having a trade/etc is only one aspect of being a citizen.

My feeling is that you cannot (aside from some outliers who tend to prove the rule) achieve this goal without educating people in the sciences and the humanities.

Fahdiz is 100% right.

We need to teach people liberal arts so they don't start idiotic threads like this that make them look like fucking retards.

Ide is a proof that once a redneck, always a redneck. Education begins at home. If it's not there, then anything else is a waste of time and money.

Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2013, 02:29:09 AM
Ide is a proof that once a redneck, always a redneck. Education begins at home. If it's not there, then anything else is a waste of time and money.

You know what rednecks are notorious for?  Advocating for a greater emphasis on hard science and mathematical education.

It's so cute when you try to understand America.  Or anything.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 18, 2013, 02:43:56 AM

Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2013, 02:29:09 AM
Ide is a proof that once a redneck, always a redneck. Education begins at home. If it's not there, then anything else is a waste of time and money.

You know what rednecks are notorious for?  Advocating for a greater emphasis on hard science and mathematical education.

It's so cute when you try to understand America.  Or anything.

No, you are an uneducated hick that cannot understand the benefits of liberal arts education because you got none. This is not a nationality thing. It is a class thing and it works the same across the globe.

Kids who are not introduced to classical music when they are young, will rarely appreciate it when they are old - same goes for a lot of things in life - you are the best example of that.

FWIW, I can't begin to describe how happy I am that I attended a school system that trained me in Shakespeare, western history, Plato and critical thinking, rather than a system that molded me into an IT office worker or a sheet metal cutter.   :)

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:45:28 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 18, 2013, 12:42:12 AM
"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

You want to build up people's character and wisdom so that they are resilient and adaptable to changing circumstances? How do I create a standardized test for that? :wacko:

I suggest you don't bother.

Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2013, 10:39:01 PM
You are narrow minded and foolish. I hope you grow out of it one day.

Voted: hahaha

It's not looking good.  He's gotten worse;  he used to be just inexperienced and immature--that people usually just naturally grow out of eventually.  Narrow-minded and foolish, not so much--that takes unusual development to grow out of.

In all honesty, posting on Languish probably doesn't help, at least not with the foolishness part.

The toilet paper dispenser at my University had "Humanities degrees, please take one" written above it.   :P

Liberal arts shouldn't be mandated out, but it should be made clear that getting a degree in art probably won't help you out in life unless you want to besomething like a curator, and even then there's a very limited demand.

Quote from: Brazen on April 18, 2013, 07:18:17 AM
The toilet paper dispenser at my University had "Humanities degrees, please take one" written above it.   :P

There was only 1?

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 18, 2013, 12:42:12 AM
"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

Case in point, I did a highly vocational IT degree, and graduated the year Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web, thus making every I'd learned obsolete.

Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2013, 02:53:04 AM
No, you are an uneducated hick that cannot understand the benefits of liberal arts education because you got none. This is not a nationality thing. It is a class thing and it works the same across the globe.

Kids who are not introduced to classical music when they are young, will rarely appreciate it when they are old - same goes for a lot of things in life - you are the best example of that.

It can't be a class thing, because you don't have any.

And what a surprise that kids who raised to like old stuff will like old stuff as adults.  Wow, what an insight.

At any rate Ide, it's surprising to see you of all people advocating turning the education system into a machine to produce drones for HR departments.

Quote from: Brazen on April 18, 2013, 08:05:31 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 18, 2013, 12:42:12 AM
"Marketable skills" will vary almost beyond recognition in the lifetime of people who live for 80 years in a fast-changing society. Far better to properly educate people so that they can deal with anything that comes up than turn them into ideal corporate servants for a particular moment of time.

Case in point, I did a highly vocational IT degree, and graduated the year Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web, thus making every I'd learned obsolete.

In my job training, my main focus was social security laws in Germany which were majorly revamped the year I graduated (1999ff), and I didn't work in the area afterwards (going into accounting instead :rolleyes: , so my knowledge was useless pretty soon after.

One way in which we (Americans) have screwed ourselves a bit is that it used to be that you could get a humanities degree and come out, decide you wanted to pursue a trade (that was marketable at the time, like electrician, computer repair, plumber, what-have-you) and do that as part of an apprenticeship/journeyman program, thus gaining your trade knowledge practically rather than academically.

Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

I didn't go to college. I bootstrapped my ass to Demi-god.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2013, 09:58:29 PM
Dude, you so have to get over your hang ups over your education.  It's reaching Raz heights.

I wouldnt be so hard on Raz

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

It seems to me that a time of massive unemployment would be a really good time to introduce some sort of apprenticeship credit program to employers...there are lots of people looking to make a change right now, and lots of people fed up with desk job life.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

Agrred. Language is only useful for thought.  The children of the ppor don't need to think, and so don't need much of a vocabulary.

The best part about this is that we don't need to spend any tax money on education.  Those who are too poor to afford education don't need to think and so don't need any education beyond sixth grade or so.  In fact, as Ide shows, education past about sixth grade is counter-productive for the children of the poor.  Ide knows enough to know that he should learn to think, but not enough to be able to actually think.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

It seems to me that a time of massive unemployment would be a really good time to introduce some sort of apprenticeship credit program to employers...there are lots of people looking to make a change right now, and lots of people fed up with desk job life.

Wouldn't it make more sense to go the other way and charge large tax penalties to employers who hire people with college degrees?

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2013, 11:41:48 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

It seems to me that a time of massive unemployment would be a really good time to introduce some sort of apprenticeship credit program to employers...there are lots of people looking to make a change right now, and lots of people fed up with desk job life.

Wouldn't it make more sense to go the other way and charge large tax penalties to employers who hire people with college degrees?

:D No, not in the sense of actually investing in the improvement of trades. Remember - a lot of those people who want jobs in the trades these days are fed up because their degrees aren't buying them what they thought they'd buy them.

And perhaps those folks with "useless" humanities degrees might have the critical thinking skills to enable them to be great tradesmen as opposed to good tradesmen.

I shudder to think how living in a world full of engineers might be.

Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2013, 12:02:07 PM
I shudder to think how living in a world full of engineers might be.

Everything nonliving functions properly and no one can look anyone else in the eye. :D

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 12:03:08 PM

Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2013, 12:02:07 PM
I shudder to think how living in a world full of engineers might be.

Everything nonliving functions properly and no one can look anyone else in the eye. :D

Or make small talk with strangers.  :P

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 03:28:43 AM
FWIW, I can't begin to describe how happy I am that I attended a school system that trained me in Shakespeare, western history, Plato and critical thinking, rather than a system that molded me into an IT office worker or a sheet metal cutter.   :)

Right. Eventually sheet metal is replaced by flubber and you have to start over. If you've been a sheet metal cutter who has a rounded education starting over *should* be a whole lot easier.

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

Most parents and students surveyed think all that is important. But when asked if they want to do it or want their children to do it (blue collar work), most then say "hell no!" :rolleyes:

I don't think any of us should be allowed to decide what kids should and shouldn't study.

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:50:11 PM
Most parents and students surveyed think all that is important. But when asked if they want to do it or want their children to do it (blue collar work), most then say "hell no!" :rolleyes:

I'm encouraging Jak to look for work as a farm hand right now. He eventually wants to go into Agricultural Engineering, so I told him to spend some time actually working with the tools of the trade before he bothers going to school to try to make them.

He may decide that he likes the farm work more, and I'd be okay with that, too. Ultimately, all that matters to most parents is that our kids are happy with what they do, and that what they do will pay the bills with a little extra.

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:50:11 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

Most parents and students surveyed think all that is important. But when asked if they want to do it or want their children to do it (blue collar work), most then say "hell no!" :rolleyes:

That is one of the reasons it is important to have those sorts of training programs within the workplace.  Once people get past high school and understand everyone cant be a /fill in the blank/ they can turn their minds to what makes more sense in terms of long term jobs that pay well.  The trades then become an obvious choice.  But if trades training is only offered through vocational institutions then they have a less value.  Partly because of the point you raise.

I could hook Jak up if he wants to move to Ohio.

Does he like pigs?  :P

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 01:02:50 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on April 18, 2013, 12:50:11 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 18, 2013, 11:25:06 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
Since apprenticeships in the trades have considerably dried up, seeing as many corporations find themselves unwilling to train, employers are beginning to demand vocational education requirements instead. This, in my opinion, makes some of those degrees artifically more valuable than they actually are. Learning about electricity is good, right, and proper. Learning about it on the job is what makes you a good electrician.

This is one of the election issues in our province - how to reinvigorate trades training in the workforce.  Everyone agrees it needs to be done.  I am not clear on the details of how anyone will actually do it though.

Most parents and students surveyed think all that is important. But when asked if they want to do it or want their children to do it (blue collar work), most then say "hell no!" :rolleyes:

That is one of the reasons it is important to have those sorts of training programs within the workplace.  Once people get past high school and understand everyone cant be a /fill in the blank/ they can turn their minds to what makes more sense in terms of long term jobs that pay well.  The trades then become an obvious choice.  But if trades training is only offered through vocational institutions then they have a less value.  Partly because of the point you raise.

:yes:

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 18, 2013, 12:55:38 PM
I don't think any of us should be allowed to decide what kids should and shouldn't study.

Well typically such sweeping and revolutionary sociological changes are decided upon by lunatics, so if anyone should decide it's me.                         

Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2013, 01:06:27 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 18, 2013, 12:55:38 PM
I don't think any of us should be allowed to decide what kids should and shouldn't study.

Well typically such sweeping and revolutionary sociological changes are decided upon by lunatics, so if anyone should decide it's me.                       

I'm cool with that.

Ide is just afraid of snakes: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/faq-the-snake-fight-portion-of-your-thesis-defense

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 18, 2013, 01:03:18 PM
I could hook Jak up if he wants to move to Ohio.

Does he like pigs?  :P

He likes bacon; does that count? :unsure:

Doubt he's going to want to move to Ohio, though. I mean, seriously.. who does?

Spending some tax money on the liberal arts up to and including HS level seems to me to make sense. Beyond that not so much. How to put this... people who study liberal arts at university are not very bright and what they produce is pretty crappy.

Quote from: Brazen on April 18, 2013, 07:18:17 AM
The toilet paper dispenser at my University had "Humanities degrees, please take one" written above it.   :P

You need to get that chiselled off the wall as it's a valuable* artefact, the one joke science undergrads have come up with in 150 years. 


*When I say valuable, it's the only example of it's class, but there are more than 100 examples of this joke as each university seems to had their own copy installed at one time or another.

I think I posted this before, hopefully not in this thread, but a particular problem with humanities degrees is that the standards have been lowered enough that there is some question whether the people in the programs learned anything at all. I would guess that I know more history than a number of history majors. Perhaps they developed critical thinking skills that I didn't, but I'm skeptical. A point that particularly bothers me is that people who spend four years majoring in a foreign language graduate without being able to speak the language with proficiency. How does that happen?

These problems exist in other disciplines too, but at least there are objective tests that will presumably wash out an engineering student that is clueless (a strong emphasis on the presumably).

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2013, 07:23:35 PM
I think I posted this before, hopefully not in this thread, but a particular problem with humanities degrees is that the standards have been lowered enough that there is some question whether the people in the programs learned anything at all. I would guess that I know more history than a number of history majors. Perhaps they developed critical thinking skills that I didn't, but I'm skeptical. A point that particularly bothers me is that people who spend four years majoring in a foreign language graduate without being able to speak the language with proficiency. How does that happen?

These problems exist in other disciplines too, but at least there are objective tests that will presumably wash out an engineering student that is clueless (a strong emphasis on the presumably).

Yes you've touch on some of that recently, but then again who here doesn't now repeat themselves.  :D

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2013, 07:23:35 PM
I think I posted this before, hopefully not in this thread, but a particular problem with humanities degrees is that the standards have been lowered enough that there is some question whether the people in the programs learned anything at all.

Yes, that's a very real problem.

It's not a reflection on the humanities themselves, though, unlike some in this thread (Ide) have opined.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 12:12:57 PM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 03:28:43 AM
FWIW, I can't begin to describe how happy I am that I attended a school system that trained me in Shakespeare, western history, Plato and critical thinking, rather than a system that molded me into an IT office worker or a sheet metal cutter.   :)

Right. Eventually sheet metal is replaced by flubber and you have to start over. If you've been a sheet metal cutter who has a rounded education starting over *should* be a whole lot easier.

:yes: And not only that - reducing education solely to its utility in one's job is also not the right way to think about education.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2013, 07:23:35 PM
I think I posted this before, hopefully not in this thread, but a particular problem with humanities degrees is that the standards have been lowered enough that there is some question whether the people in the programs learned anything at all. I would guess that I know more history than a number of history majors. Perhaps they developed critical thinking skills that I didn't, but I'm skeptical. A point that particularly bothers me is that people who spend four years majoring in a foreign language graduate without being able to speak the language with proficiency. How does that happen?

These problems exist in other disciplines too, but at least there are objective tests that will presumably wash out an engineering student that is clueless (a strong emphasis on the presumably).

If we're talking about post-high school education, then I think that's where the quality of the academic institution becomes important.  Trade school / vocational training is probably of more benefit to someone than an arts degree from a klown kollege.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 07:47:29 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2013, 07:23:35 PM
I think I posted this before, hopefully not in this thread, but a particular problem with humanities degrees is that the standards have been lowered enough that there is some question whether the people in the programs learned anything at all.

Yes, that's a very real problem.

It's not a reflection on the humanities themselves, though, unlike some in this thread (Ide) have opined.

Do you think the lowering of standards has nothing to do with the guaranteed federal money given to colleges for putting asses in seats?

What's a little annoying to me is how badly my position has been misrepresented.  I expect that kind of shit from Martinus, but the rest of you seem to be fighting the same straw man he is: that I said the study of culture and the arts was worthless in any context.  I'll grant that I haven't helped with overheated rhetoric, but my point is and always has been that debt-funding an education in history, English literature, and the like is a bad move for almost any undergrad, and a terrible use of government money--that liberal arts higher education is very close to less than worthless, and comes with a shockingly high opportunity cost.

If there were underwriting standards and the government guarantee vanished, the loans going to these programs would never be made; this is practically inarguable.  The economy does not require baristas who've read Epicoene.

given that I feel there is a low social value to post-HS liberal arts education and that there is objectively a low economic value to it, and given that you all apparently feel much the same way since no one has voted "other" and said it should be 100% paid for by society rather than individual student debtors, why should billions of dollars be transferred from the young consumers who drive our economy and from the taxpayers as a whole to enrich nothing more than university administrators, professors, and their staffs, particularly when the program by its very existence devalues the credentials it pays for so dearly?

How Yi is the only one who understood this is beyond me.  Not a slam on Yi, he's a smart guy, but the rest of you are supposed to be smart to, and when you get all "POETRY DEGREES MAKE DEMOCRACY HAPPEN" and "YOUR ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM MAKES ME SAD," i.e. behaving in the hyperbolic and functionally-illiterate manner ordinarily reserved for dumb Polacks, I can't help but wonder if perhaps I should have been a bit more serious myself.

Oh, and Martinus?  Your willingness to never let your presumed ability to understand what someone else is saying get in the way of a boring insult is why no one respects you.  The idea that I have no cultural education is negated by any knowledge of my interests, which you know damned well includes ancient and modern history, Greek plays, French literature, and the preservation of ephemeral popular culture for future generations, whether they give a shit or not.  That there should be some government-funded archival system with trained people running it is not the debate here--to that extent, I want my government to fund the preservation of all forms of culture so that the future can enjoy whatever bullshit they're into.  However, until the point that such preservation will provide jobs for the hundreds of thousands of liberal arts majors coasting through our overpriced and underperforming university system, it doesn't seem like a very good idea to flood our nation's food service and retail labor markets with hundreds of thousands of debtors.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 03:28:43 AM
FWIW, I can't begin to describe how happy I am that I attended a school system that trained me in Shakespeare, western history, Plato and critical thinking, rather than a system that molded me into an IT office worker or a sheet metal cutter.   :)

Do you think you would not care for Shakespeare, western history, and Plato if you'd been trained as a metal cutter?  Do you think you'd just watch plays about metal cutting and read about the history and philosophy of metal cutting or something?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 18, 2013, 12:27:12 AM
Ide, imagine a generation growing up without being force fed basic humanities knowledge. Then imagine them raising children. Their children raising more children. Do you think that society has gotten better or worse in the interim?

As I said before, I think it's valuable enough in the K-12 arena to teach it, for democracy and culture and critical thinking and all the other reasons outlined by my opponents.

But, related to my reply above, do you really--really--think that in a world where the number of liberal arts grads was reduced by a factor of ten, it would have any profound affect on the amount and quality of the cultural product we create, or that our conversations would become lowbrow and our lives gray?

I'm talking about keeping kids out of debt and unfucking the higher education market.  How this is even controversial, let alone worthy of invective, suggests how ingrained in our society is the idea, but not the reality, of what our colleges do.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 18, 2013, 09:05:48 PM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 03:28:43 AM
FWIW, I can't begin to describe how happy I am that I attended a school system that trained me in Shakespeare, western history, Plato and critical thinking, rather than a system that molded me into an IT office worker or a sheet metal cutter.   :)

Do you think you would not care for Shakespeare, western history, and Plato if you'd been trained as a metal cutter?

Oh, it's entirely possible - and I'd be worse off for it.

Well, looks like Ide had a cup of coffee. Iumpin' Iesu Christe.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 09:35:49 PM
Well, looks like Ide had a cup of coffee. Iumpin' Iesu Christe.

He's had a classical education! Get him!

I favour a Pol Pot-esque, Year Zero, peasantization and return to the farm, so as to gain virtue and meaning through hard, agricultural labour.   :P

Quote from: Ideologue on April 18, 2013, 09:12:37 PM
As I said before, I think it's valuable enough in the K-12 arena to teach it, for democracy and culture and critical thinking and all the other reasons outlined by my opponents.

Do you really think it's sufficiently taught in grades 1-12 to ensure good participants in civic life?

Quote from: HVC on April 18, 2013, 09:39:24 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 09:35:49 PM
Well, looks like Ide had a cup of coffee. Iumpin' Iesu Christe.

He's had a classical education! Get him!

:lol:

Quote from: Ideologue on April 18, 2013, 09:12:37 PM
As I said before, I think it's valuable enough in the K-12 arena to teach it, for democracy and culture and critical thinking and all the other reasons outlined by my opponents.

But, related to my reply above, do you really--really--think that in a world where the number of liberal arts grads was reduced by a factor of ten, it would have any profound affect on the amount and quality of the cultural product we create, or that our conversations would become lowbrow and our lives gray?

I'm talking about keeping kids out of debt and unfucking the higher education market.  How this is even controversial, let alone worthy of invective, suggests how ingrained in our society is the idea, but not the reality, of what our colleges do.

Eh, I'd be perfectly fine with the government paying for college completely. And how does taking away federal student aid from humanities majors keep kids out of debt?

:huh: They won't get loans to go to Starbucks school.

Quote from: fahdizDo you really think it's sufficiently taught in grades 1-12 to ensure good participants in civic life?

I meant to add that a gen-ed libarts component to the engineering, biology, and astronaut degrees we would offer under my system would be also be fine and acceptable.  There are positions mid-way between "no liberal arts taught in college ever" and "history degrees for all comers."

Quote from: Peter Wiggin link=topic=9700.msg567794#msg567794
Eh, I'd be perfectly fine with the government paying for college completely.

Word up.  Undergrad only, of course - we don't need any more J.D.s.

They'll go to college anyway because they're young and optimistic and think they'll get one of the cushy office jobs.

Quote from: Brazen on April 18, 2013, 07:18:17 AM
The toilet paper dispenser at my University had "Humanities degrees, please take one" written above it.   :P

It's pretty easy to get a good grade in something fun like history.
On the other hand if you choose to study "super hard physics" one might struggle.
Yet when it comes to getting a job all the employer tends to see is the grade, in hindsight I often think I should have studied history; had more fun time at school, enjoyed what I was learning more, and got a first and a job at the end of it.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 18, 2013, 10:13:37 PM
They'll go to college anyway because they're young and optimistic and think they'll get one of the cushy office jobs.

With what money?

QuoteEh, I'd be perfectly fine with the government paying for college completely. And how does taking away federal student aid from humanities majors keep kids out of debt?

And yes, that would be fine by me as well, because it means the DoE would step in and actually do its job.  But since that's a political fantasy, I didn't mention it in the poll.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 18, 2013, 10:18:59 PM
With what money?

The money Mom and Dad have to borrow from the bank. Or barring that, the money they get working at Starbucks.

It's a free country.  I think you'll find a lot fewer people going into majors with no obvious ROI when they're investing their own money, however.

Quote from: Tyr on April 18, 2013, 10:18:22 PM

Quote from: Brazen on April 18, 2013, 07:18:17 AM
The toilet paper dispenser at my University had "Humanities degrees, please take one" written above it.   :P

It's pretty easy to get a good grade in something fun like history.
On the other hand if you choose to study "super hard physics" one might struggle.
Yet when it comes to getting a job all the employer tends to see is the grade, in hindsight I often think I should have studied history; had more fun time at school, enjoyed what I was learning more, and got a first and a job at the end of it.

I've been a history buff since I was a toddler and I chose to study "super hard physics". The main reason was that that I wanted to be knowledgeable in several fields to increase my understanding of the world. One of the other reasons was that I realized during my HS years that history as it is being studied and researched at university is a joke and not intellectually or emotionally relevant.

Scientists are often knowledgeable in the liberal arts. Liberal arts people are often completely clueless about science.

Ide, at the risk of poking the bear, if you step back for a moment, aren't you better off with your education? You have an office job that pays reasonably well. I know it isn't a dream job, but do you really think you would be happier as a welder?

I'd be happier as a welder :(

Sadly, apprenticeship programs are virtually nowhere to be found around here. Craigslist ads I've seen for welders want "experienced" ones; none of them say "will train", "apprentice", or etc.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 08:46:51 AM
Ide, at the risk of poking the bear, if you step back for a moment, aren't you better off with your education? You have an office job that pays reasonably well. I know it isn't a dream job, but do you really think you would be happier as a welder?

Opportunity costs are hard to measure.  It was not unlikely I'd be in a restaurant management capacity, however, earning $10,000-20,000 a year more and with further opportunities for advancement.  I'm not doing poorly, but remember I'm a temp and there is vanishingly little chance for permanent employment, let alone true stability and forget real advancement, in doc review.

And that's my $65,000 + living expenses professional degree.  The only reason I earned more money after I got my history degree is I started waiting tables at a higher price-per-plate restaurant.

The problem is not the humanities.   The US is predominantly a service economy, and managers and executives in such industry require literacy, communication, and social reasoning skills that can be enhanced by a good humanities-based education.   The problem is the notion that everyone ought to go to university.  that is a problem because increasing the number of university graduates doesn't necessarily increase the number of jobs that require or need that level of education. 

Quote from: fahdiz on April 19, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
I'd be happier as a welder :(

My uncle was.  Always wished he stopped.

A guy I worked with in bail bonds early in my career left the biz to go be an underwater welder.  Traveled the fucking world and made serious coin.

I met an underwater welder down in Pepsi Cola, Florida who made massive bank.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 19, 2013, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 19, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
I'd be happier as a welder :(

My uncle was.  Always wished he stopped.

A guy I worked with in bail bonds early in my career left the biz to go be an underwater welder.  Traveled the fucking world and made serious coin.

Yeah, the only downside with being a welder is you need to travel to where the work is.  But if that is ok there is plenty of work for welders.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 19, 2013, 05:00:30 PM
I met an underwater welder down in Pepsi Cola, Florida who made massive bank.

Because it ranks high on dangerous jobs list.

Quote from: katmai on April 19, 2013, 05:05:45 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 19, 2013, 05:00:30 PM
I met an underwater welder down in Pepsi Cola, Florida who made massive bank.

Because it ranks high on dangerous jobs list.

True, but landlubber welders can also make a lot.  The problem with them is that jobs in one location are generally few and far between and so they need to travel a fair bit to have regular employment.

If these various piplines ever get approved there is a going to be a big demand.

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 19, 2013, 05:16:18 PM
True, but landlubber welders can also make a lot.  The problem with them is that jobs in one location are generally few and far between and so they need to travel a fair bit to have regular employment.

Yeah, or they get a long-term construction contract;  my uncle got a welding gig through my grandfather for Diablo Canyon NPP.  Lasted years.

QuoteIf these various piplines ever get approved there is a going to be a big demand.

Yeah.  Fixing leaks.

Pipeline welders make so much because QA demands keep the supply low.

Anecdotally, (and welding tickets were the career of choice among my peers growing up) even a licensed welder has to jump through major hoops to get into the game and if you fail one inspection you're back out of it.

I agree with Ide we should not finance liberal arts educations at the post-secondary level. However I disagree that they are unimportant. It's the difference between being a gentleman like myself and someone like who Ide was back in his unwashed white trash days. But I don't believe the government should help one aspire to such a thing, in fact it should discourage the lessers from aspiring to such a thing.

I may hate people like Martinus with the heat of the sun, but if we were ever to come to blows it would be in a duel between learned gentlemen. But someone of the unwashed masses, like Raz, for example, would not warrant a duel but would just be viciously bludgeoned on the spot with my walking stick or I'd have several of my manservants flog him and ride him out of town on a rail.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 19, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
I'd be happier as a welder :(

Sadly, apprenticeship programs are virtually nowhere to be found around here. Craigslist ads I've seen for welders want "experienced" ones; none of them say "will train", "apprentice", or etc.

You might be--without having met you, I get the impression you might be happy doing blue or white collar work. With Ide, I get the impression he is much better cut out for white collar work.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 02:24:03 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 08:46:51 AM
Ide, at the risk of poking the bear, if you step back for a moment, aren't you better off with your education? You have an office job that pays reasonably well. I know it isn't a dream job, but do you really think you would be happier as a welder?

Opportunity costs are hard to measure.  It was not unlikely I'd be in a restaurant management capacity, however, earning $10,000-20,000 a year more and with further opportunities for advancement.  I'm not doing poorly, but remember I'm a temp and there is vanishingly little chance for permanent employment, let alone true stability and forget real advancement, in doc review.

And that's my $65,000 + living expenses professional degree.  The only reason I earned more money after I got my history degree is I started waiting tables at a higher price-per-plate restaurant.

$65k, in the grand scheme of a lifetime, is not a lot of money. Servicing the debt on that is probably less than $200 a month.

Quote from: Maximus on April 19, 2013, 05:33:21 PM
Pipeline welders make so much because QA demands keep the supply low.

Anecdotally, (and welding tickets were the career of choice among my peers growing up) even a licensed welder has to jump through major hoops to get into the game and if you fail one inspection you're back out of it.

It's not just the tickets, the ones I worked with were on the edge of turning a craft into an art-form; the really good ones are really good, the less talented ones wouldn't last.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 06:31:09 PM
You might be--without having met you, I get the impression you might be happy doing blue or white collar work.

You know what? I take that as a compliment, and one I particularly needed to hear today. Thank you. :hug:

How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

Not people with college loans.  :P

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 06:36:05 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 02:24:03 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 08:46:51 AM
Ide, at the risk of poking the bear, if you step back for a moment, aren't you better off with your education? You have an office job that pays reasonably well. I know it isn't a dream job, but do you really think you would be happier as a welder?

Opportunity costs are hard to measure.  It was not unlikely I'd be in a restaurant management capacity, however, earning $10,000-20,000 a year more and with further opportunities for advancement.  I'm not doing poorly, but remember I'm a temp and there is vanishingly little chance for permanent employment, let alone true stability and forget real advancement, in doc review.

And that's my $65,000 + living expenses professional degree.  The only reason I earned more money after I got my history degree is I started waiting tables at a higher price-per-plate restaurant.

$65k, in the grand scheme of a lifetime, is not a lot of money. Servicing the debt on that is probably less than $200 a month.

No.  $65k + living expenses.  And it's about $1000 on a normal ten year schedule, which I obviously do not keep.  I guess it depends on what you mean by "service."  I "service" my debt on IBR in the mid-hundreds (dunno why I'm coy about my income, since market for doc review in Columbia is easily googleable, but at least it'll keep Tim from knowing :lol: although as part of my quasi-promotion I do make somewhat above market).  But that "service" takes a very long time, and indeed on a monthly basis comes very close to negating the difference between working as a waiter and working as a coder, at least on an hourly basis--I guess my law degree lets me work 50 hour weeks.  Thanks FLSA exemptions! :D

And, yes, that means that if I were paying $1000 a month, I'd effectively be making significantly less than a decent waiter who works 4/5 the hours, and probably free or heavily discounted food.

I have never once used my bachelors degree in any capacity whatsoever, though then again it didn't cost me a dime.  :bowler:  :blush:

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 08:12:49 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 06:36:05 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 02:24:03 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 19, 2013, 08:46:51 AM
Ide, at the risk of poking the bear, if you step back for a moment, aren't you better off with your education? You have an office job that pays reasonably well. I know it isn't a dream job, but do you really think you would be happier as a welder?

Opportunity costs are hard to measure.  It was not unlikely I'd be in a restaurant management capacity, however, earning $10,000-20,000 a year more and with further opportunities for advancement.  I'm not doing poorly, but remember I'm a temp and there is vanishingly little chance for permanent employment, let alone true stability and forget real advancement, in doc review.

And that's my $65,000 + living expenses professional degree.  The only reason I earned more money after I got my history degree is I started waiting tables at a higher price-per-plate restaurant.

$65k, in the grand scheme of a lifetime, is not a lot of money. Servicing the debt on that is probably less than $200 a month.

No.  $65k + living expenses.  And it's about $1000 on a normal ten year schedule, which I obviously do not keep.  I guess it depends on what you mean by "service."  I "service" my debt on IBR in the mid-hundreds (dunno why I'm coy about my income, since market for doc review in Columbia is easily googleable, but at least it'll keep Tim from knowing :lol: although as part of my quasi-promotion I do make somewhat above market).  But that "service" takes a very long time, and indeed on a monthly basis comes very close to negating the difference between working as a waiter and working as a coder, at least on an hourly basis--I guess my law degree lets me work 50 hour weeks.  Thanks FLSA exemptions! :D

And, yes, that means that if I were paying $1000 a month, I'd effectively be making significantly less than a decent waiter who works 4/5 the hours, and probably free or heavily discounted food.

I thought the term would be a lot longer than 10 years...

I think to repay in 25 it'd be like $600.  Never looked into it.

I wish the government would lend me $100,000 to buy a house.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
I think to repay in 25 it'd be like $600.  Never looked into it.

I wish the government would lend me $100,000 to buy a house.

Why the government in particular?

Unsure as to the purpose of the question.  Who do you think gives almost all educational loans?

But anyway, a bank probably isn't. :P

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
I think to repay in 25 it'd be like $600.  Never looked into it.

I wish the government would lend me $100,000 to buy a house.

So I was a bit off anyway...30 years and 3.4% (a google of interest rates) would give a bit under 300 with 65k of debt.

No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
I think to repay in 25 it'd be like $600.  Never looked into it.

I wish the government would lend me $100,000 to buy a house.

I'll loan you $100,000 at 5%. But if you miss two consecutive payments I will have you killed.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

My mortgage rate is 3.25%.  :hmm:

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

Hypothetical kids. :D

Quote from: alfred russel on April 20, 2013, 09:40:59 AM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

My mortgage rate is 3.25%.  :hmm:

Well, I'm sure that is very fine for you.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 20, 2013, 09:40:59 AM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

My mortgage rate is 3.25%.  :hmm:

That's an excellent rate!

I want a rate below 3%

Can I rant about liberal arts? Don't care much about rates.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

Well, I figured you could refinance, but after googling it seems there are challenges with refinancing student loans...So at this point I will just admit I was wrong about everything and carry on...  :D

Ide, if you had it all to do over again, what would you do? Skip college to focus on a career in restaurants?

Ide, just emigrate, there may even be a land of thin chicks out there, somewhere ?  :D

You mean like Ethiopia and Somalia?

I think Canada requires 250k in assets to emigrate there. A bitchin' DVD collection won't qualify.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 20, 2013, 01:13:50 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 20, 2013, 09:40:59 AM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

My mortgage rate is 3.25%.  :hmm:

That's an excellent rate!

2.99 here. Then again there's only a small portion left over so that's probably how i got max discretion.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

:yes: Liberal arts is a spice of life, but you can't feed yourself just with spices.

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:01:59 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

:yes: Liberal arts is a spice of life, but you can't feed yourself just with spices.

Then why would you get a degree in it?

Quote from: fahdiz on April 18, 2013, 11:50:55 AM
And perhaps those folks with "useless" humanities degrees might have the critical thinking skills to enable them to be great tradesmen as opposed to good tradesmen.

Yes, because getting a humanities degree without job prospects really shows how critical your thinking skills are.

I'm not entirely sure what a liberal arts degree even entails.  I know what a medieval liberal education was like.  There were seven subjects.  Grammar, Rhetoric, Arithmetic, geometry, logic, astrology, and music.  Music was actually more mathematics, I think it involved ratios and fractions.

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:07:29 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:01:59 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

:yes: Liberal arts is a spice of life, but you can't feed yourself just with spices.

Then why would you get a degree in it?

Simply having a degree is helpful in the job market.  My dad is a programmer, but got a degree in Psychology which he credits with helping him get a better position.  Not because of knowledge of psychology, but simply because having a piece of paper that says you went to college gives you a leg up.

Quote from: The Brain on April 18, 2013, 03:25:53 PM
Spending some tax money on the liberal arts up to and including HS level seems to me to make sense. Beyond that not so much. How to put this... people who study liberal arts at university are not very bright and what they produce is pretty crappy.

I wouldn't put it like that, but I'm glad someone else did.  :). I'm not sure where the notion that liberal arts gives you critical thinking skills is coming from anyway.  In my college experience, liberal arts students were very uncritical liberal drones.

Quote from: Razgovory on April 20, 2013, 10:20:26 PM

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:07:29 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:01:59 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

:yes: Liberal arts is a spice of life, but you can't feed yourself just with spices.

Then why would you get a degree in it?

Simply having a degree is helpful in the job market. 

Yes, I know that. Why a humanities degree though?

Quote from: Razgovory on April 20, 2013, 10:20:26 PM
Simply having a degree is helpful in the job market.  My dad is a programmer, but got a degree in Psychology which he credits with helping him get a better position.  Not because of knowledge of psychology, but simply because having a piece of paper that says you went to college gives you a leg up.

Those were the good ole days.

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:24:31 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on April 20, 2013, 10:20:26 PM

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:07:29 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:01:59 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I proposed something similar earlier: remove all government financial aid and loans and loan guarantees for majors that are not immediately marketable.  Let rich kids take humanities.

:yes: Liberal arts is a spice of life, but you can't feed yourself just with spices.

Then why would you get a degree in it?

Simply having a degree is helpful in the job market. 

Yes, I know that. Why a humanities degree though?

Maybe cause it's easy?   I don't know.

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

:blush:

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:29:10 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

:blush:

Seems rather smart to me.

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:32:13 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:29:10 PM
:blush:

Seems rather smart to me.

It is.  The utility of knowing that you have assets to fall back on if your employment goes to shit is worth more than pissing away every cent you earn.  Peace of mind is a pretty good thing to splurge on in our society.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 20, 2013, 06:54:55 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
No, my interest rates are not 3.4%.

Well, I figured you could refinance, but after googling it seems there are challenges with refinancing student loans...So at this point I will just admit I was wrong about everything and carry on...  :D

Ide, if you had it all to do over again, what would you do? Skip college to focus on a career in restaurants?

Can I carry back detailed knowledge of the markets or a sports almanac, or just key pieces of wisdom? :P  Seriously, because Replay is my favorite mental self-torture device.

But, if only wisdom gets to go back in time, I'd focus on math and science and probably be a nurse in a high-skill field, like anesthesia.  My family has connections in hospitals, too, so there's that.  My step-sister is specifically a nurse anesthetist and makes $125k a year for working 35 hours a week.  She owns a big house and just had her second kid. -_-

Alternatively, I'd focus on my art and be a comic penciller, with eyes toward writing.

Alternatively, restaurant work.

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:32:13 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:29:10 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

:blush:

Seems rather smart to me.

It is both smart and embarrassing.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 20, 2013, 10:55:52 PM

Quote from: 11B4V on April 20, 2013, 10:32:13 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 10:29:10 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

:blush:

Seems rather smart to me.

It is both smart and embarrassing.

How is it embarrassing to basically be a leg up on your peer group?

People who don't do stupid things when they're young are squares.

Quote from: DGuller on April 20, 2013, 11:11:29 PM
People who don't do stupid things when they're young are squares.

That's why they're accepted by the FBI.

How on earth does one even invest when we're talking about such small sums

Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2013, 07:41:18 AM
How on earth does one even invest when we're talking about such small sums

:hmm:

Generally if you want to invest small amounts like $200/mo brokerage trading fees eat away an unacceptable percentage of your returns. If you open an IRA though a lot of mutual fund companies will let you buy the fund for $1000 and then you can make minimum contributions of $100 or more with no trading fees. You could also buy into a DRIP/DSPP which are also cost effective ways to make small investments.

Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2013, 07:41:18 AM
How on earth does one even invest when we're talking about such small sums

When I first started working in high school I began by investing 50 dollars per month.  This was back when interest rates were somewhere around 15%.  That monthly amount didnt really go up until after law school.  But by that time I had a nice little pile of dough to help with a downpayment on my first property.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 19, 2013, 04:47:44 PM
The problem is not the humanities.   The US is predominantly a service economy, and managers and executives in such industry require literacy, communication, and social reasoning skills that can be enhanced by a good humanities-based education.   The problem is the notion that everyone ought to go to university.  that is a problem because increasing the number of university graduates doesn't necessarily increase the number of jobs that require or need that level of education.

Bingo.

So Ide, not to make this thread entirely about your career troubles, but having a law degree if you wanted to setup shop for yourself in some strip mall doing criminal defense for DUIs and suing businesses when people fall on the floor of their store how much money could you make at that?

I know a guy who is in a partnership with two other guys basically doing generic criminal defense, personal injury, and minor contract work in Fredericksburg (a moderately size small city) and those guys are loaded. The one who I'm friends with has a very nice,  big house. He also has a vacation home out on Deep Creek Lake in Maryland that I know for a fact cost over $300,000. He has two children, one went to UVA and the other Washington & Lee, he's paid both of their tuition out of pocket with no loans and bought them both very nice, $120-150k houses to live in while they're in college.

So I don't know his income, but it's obviously substantial, and he's not a partner at some big lawfirm, it's just him and two other guys that are partners (they have no associates but do I think have some paralegals and clerk types.)

Ide doesn't actually want to practice law.  His degree was pretty much a prop that he thought would help him get a government job.

Ah, that sounds stupid then. As someone in government I can tell you there's a lot cheaper and easier post-baccalaureate degrees you can get that will open up government jobs to you in abundance.

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2013, 10:28:37 AM
Ah, that sounds stupid then. As someone in government I can tell you there's a lot cheaper and easier post-baccalaureate degrees you can get that will open up government jobs to you in abundance.

Not to mention less evil degrees.

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
So Ide, not to make this thread entirely about your career troubles, but having a law degree if you wanted to setup shop for yourself in some strip mall doing criminal defense for DUIs and suing businesses when people fall on the floor of their store how much money could you make at that?

What's more, you're your own boss.  I've known a lot of these types, and while some only make an average living, they make their own hours and fuck their paralegals.

Then again, there are always a ton of NPOs screaming for entry-level counsel.  They don't make much, but Ide could find one that aligns with his passions and follows work that leads to personal fulfillment and a sense of accomplishment.  And after a few years, he can then go the government or corporate route, and then make the really big bucks crushing his former NPO.

Ide needs 4 years in the Navy.

Quote from: Ed Anger on April 21, 2013, 11:05:51 AM
Ide needs 4 years in the NavyMarine Corps.

We don't need Ide with a gun.

Quote from: Ed Anger on April 21, 2013, 11:05:51 AM
Ide needs 4 years in the Navy.

That would've paid for his liberal arts degree.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2013, 11:03:38 AM

Then again, there are always a ton of NPOs screaming for entry-level counsel.  They don't make much, but Ide could find one that aligns with his passions

The Anarcho-Syndicalist Committee for the Promotion of Fucking Anorexic Chicks.

Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2013, 07:41:18 AM
How on earth does one even invest when we're talking about such small sums

Mutual fund.  Their whole raison d'etre is put small, incremental amounts into the market.

"Engineering salaries rose, on average, 4% over the previous year to $62,535, but other industries saw larger increases. Those majoring in health sciences will see a 9.4% increase over last year, while business majors’ salaries will rise 7.1%.

The grads seeing the smallest pay bump are humanities and social-science majors, whose starting salaries inched up 1.9%, to $37,058."

http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2013/04/29/and-the-highest-paid-college-majors-are/

Top 10 majors, with starting salaries:

Petroleum Engineering: $93,500

Computer Engineering: $71,700

Chemical Engineering: $67,600

Computer Science: $64,800

Aerospace/Aeronautical/Astronautical Engineering: $64,400

Mechanical Engineering: $64,000

Electrical/Electronics and Communications Engineering: $63,400

Management Information Systems/Business: $63,100

Engineering Technology: $62,200

Finance: $57,400

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FOB-XG669_0429wi_D_20130429123945.jpg&hash=aac5bd317a136f356bbdafc670ed4786471a0789)

I find some of those starting salaries impossible to believe, unless they were only polling people working in Manhattan, Silicon Valley, Chicago, etc.

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 12:36:45 PM
I find some of those starting salaries impossible to believe, unless they were only polling people working in Manhattan, Silicon Valley, Chicago, etc.

I think those are median salary values.

The days of engineering types running major companies are over.  They'll get to a certain level of leadership, but that's all.  The Big Cheeses in tech sectors wind up being the humanities types.  Hell, even hospitals aren't run by doctors anymore.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
The days of engineering types running major companies are over.

That's a great tell for when a company's "growth" period ends. When the engineer who started it gets replaced by some person of a different field.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 01:10:07 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
The days of engineering types running major companies are over.

That's a great tell for when a company's "growth" period ends. When the engineer who started it gets replaced by some person of a different field.

:yes:

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 01:10:07 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
The days of engineering types running major companies are over.

That's a great tell for when a company's "growth" period ends. When the engineer who started it gets replaced by some person of a different field.

Ahhyup.  20 years ago, your local power company was probably run by somebody who started off climbing poles or worked a control room 20 years earlier.  Not anymore.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 01:10:07 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
The days of engineering types running major companies are over.

That's a great tell for when a company's "growth" period ends. When the engineer who started it gets replaced by some person of a different field.

The "downward" period begins when instead of hiring a humanities visionary they promote their CFO to CEO.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 01:10:07 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
The days of engineering types running major companies are over.

That's a great tell for when a company's "growth" period ends. When the engineer who started it gets replaced by some person of a different field.

That's my dream. I have no hard technical skills, but I weasel tech stuff into my job descriptions and titles for my largely admin roles. Later, I will manage the people with the hard technical skills.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 01:27:37 PM
The "downward" period begins when instead of hiring a humanities visionary they promote their CFO to CEO.

"You asked for miracles, Theo...I give you the M.B.A."

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 12:36:45 PM
I find some of those starting salaries impossible to believe, unless they were only polling people working in Manhattan, Silicon Valley, Chicago, etc.

Which ones concern you that way? The petroleum engineers are almost definitely not working in Chicago, Manhattan, or SF.

The Computer Science, MIS, and Finance ones basically.  The petroleum engineer one actually sounded reasonable to me.

63k is about right for a network engineer type I'd say.

Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
63k is about right for a network engineer type I'd say.

Even for a guy straight out of school with no experience? :hmm:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

Were they engineers?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 02:33:50 PM
Were they engineers?

They were grunts.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

It is. Makes it kind of a shame that they're in bed with all the companies who are completely assfucking our food supply.

My fantasy if I get banished from the government/military realm is to begin work at the lowest levels of McDonald's or WalMart and then rise towards the top. :)

All work is honorable!

Quote from: Phillip V on April 29, 2013, 02:41:30 PM
My fantasy if I get banished from the government/military realm is to begin work at the lowest levels of McDonald's or WalMart and then rise towards the top. :)

All work is honorable!

That certainly solves my dilemma.  Who needs HSPD-7 and -12 when there's McGriddles to be made?

Egg White McMuffins!

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 02:59:32 PM
Egg White McMuffins!

Are those any good?  I haven't been to breakfast at McDonald's in a while (fortunately for my cholesterol).

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

It is. Makes it kind of a shame that they're in bed with all the companies who are completely assfucking our food supply.

Is fahdiz one of those idiots whose bought into the "modern food production = poison" bullshit?

Quote from: Phillip V on April 29, 2013, 02:41:30 PM
My fantasy if I get banished from the government/military realm is to begin work at the lowest levels of McDonald's or WalMart and then rise towards the top. :)

All work is honorable!

The one big problem with the American Beauty paradigm is you can only afford rent at a boarding house with six crackhead housemates.

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 29, 2013, 03:07:37 PM
Is fahdiz one of those idiots whose bought into the "modern food production = poison" bullshit?

I think his beef--as it were--is with McDonald's atrocious record of industrial chicken processing, as opposed to Chik-fil-A's more holistic approach.

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 29, 2013, 03:07:37 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

It is. Makes it kind of a shame that they're in bed with all the companies who are completely assfucking our food supply.

Is fahdiz one of those idiots whose bought into the "modern food production = poison" bullshit?

No, I'm one of those other kinds of idiots.

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 03:00:48 PM

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 02:59:32 PM
Egg White McMuffins!

Are those any good?  I haven't been to breakfast at McDonald's in a while (fortunately for my cholesterol).

I've no idea. I believe the difference in calories is like 50 and I was like, mmm, why bother?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 03:09:35 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on April 29, 2013, 02:41:30 PM
My fantasy if I get banished from the government/military realm is to begin work at the lowest levels of McDonald's or WalMart and then rise towards the top. :)

All work is honorable!

The one big problem with the American Beauty paradigm is you can only afford rent at a boarding house with six crackhead housemates.

I have a large safety/housing net of family, friends, former colleagues, and church. :hug:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 03:09:35 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on April 29, 2013, 02:41:30 PM
My fantasy if I get banished from the government/military realm is to begin work at the lowest levels of McDonald's or WalMart and then rise towards the top. :)

All work is honorable!

The one big problem with the American Beauty paradigm is you can only afford rent at a boarding house with six crackhead housemates.

So you admit it. :hmm:

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 04:30:06 PM
So you admit it. :hmm:

Yes, I cracked from the intense pressure of your interrogation.

WTF do you mean "admit?"

That America is a blighted nation where many jobs don't pay a living wage.

Aren't people still living who make those wages? :hmm:

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 04:50:13 PM
Aren't people still living who make those wages? :hmm:

Depends on your definitions.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
That America is a blighted nation where many jobs don't pay a living wage.

Reading comprehension motherfucker, do you have it?

What do you mean by admit?  Have I tried to sustain the illusion that a person working minimum wage can support a family of four in comfort and style?

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 03:11:34 PM

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 29, 2013, 03:07:37 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

It is. Makes it kind of a shame that they're in bed with all the companies who are completely assfucking our food supply.

Is fahdiz one of those idiots whose bought into the "modern food production = poison" bullshit?

No, I'm one of those other kinds of idiots.

Fahdiz, an idiot for all seasons.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 03:09:35 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on April 29, 2013, 02:41:30 PM
My fantasy if I get banished from the government/military realm is to begin work at the lowest levels of McDonald's or WalMart and then rise towards the top. :)

All work is honorable!

The one big problem with the American Beauty paradigm is you can only afford rent at a boarding house with six crackhead housemates.

Actually my brother made some decent money in the industry.  He's a pretty hard worker.  Of course he's stupid so wouldn't take a district management job, and he's a drunk so he lost all his money.

Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2013, 05:04:59 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 03:11:34 PM

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 29, 2013, 03:07:37 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

It is. Makes it kind of a shame that they're in bed with all the companies who are completely assfucking our food supply.

Is fahdiz one of those idiots whose bought into the "modern food production = poison" bullshit?

No, I'm one of those other kinds of idiots.

Fahdiz, an idiot for all seasons.

:bowler:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
That America is a blighted nation where many jobs don't pay a living wage.

Reading comprehension motherfucker, do you have it?

What do you mean by admit?  Have I tried to sustain the illusion that a person working minimum wage can support a family of four in comfort and style?

Nope.

But it is within your purview to pretend it isn't a problem that anyone should do anything about.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:10:42 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
That America is a blighted nation where many jobs don't pay a living wage.

Reading comprehension motherfucker, do you have it?

What do you mean by admit?  Have I tried to sustain the illusion that a person working minimum wage can support a family of four in comfort and style?

Nope.

But it is within your purview to pretend it isn't a problem that anyone should do anything about.

I mean don't people always like to spend money they don't have? If it isn't 4 kids, it's a big screen plasma or a cadillac.

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 04:54:58 PM

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 04:50:13 PM
Aren't people still living who make those wages? :hmm:

Depends on your definitions.

Well certainly not by garbon standards.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:10:42 PM
Nope.

But it is within your purview to pretend it isn't a problem that anyone should do anything about.

I've never pretended people should do nothing about it.  Specifically, if you have a family to support you should look for a job that pays more.  If you just want more walking around money, look for a job that pays more.

Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2013, 05:12:54 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 04:54:58 PM

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 04:50:13 PM
Aren't people still living who make those wages? :hmm:

Depends on your definitions.

Well certainly not by garbon standards.

Damn him and his demands for refrigerated Cheddar!

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 05:14:13 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:10:42 PM
Nope.

But it is within your purview to pretend it isn't a problem that anyone should do anything about.

I've never pretended people should do nothing about it.  Specifically, if you have a family to support you should look for a job that pays more.  If you just want more walking around money, look for a job that pays more.

Great plan.  If you aren't making enough to support a family where are you going to find a job that pays more these days?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 05:14:13 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:10:42 PM
Nope.

But it is within your purview to pretend it isn't a problem that anyone should do anything about.

I've never pretended people should do nothing about it.  Specifically, if you have a family to support you should look for a job that pays more.  If you just want more walking around money, look for a job that pays more.

Yet I'm the one with unrealistic economic ideology. :P

Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2013, 05:20:45 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 05:14:13 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:10:42 PM
Nope.

But it is within your purview to pretend it isn't a problem that anyone should do anything about.

I've never pretended people should do nothing about it.  Specifically, if you have a family to support you should look for a job that pays more.  If you just want more walking around money, look for a job that pays more.

Great plan.  If you aren't making enough to support a family where are you going to find a job that pays more these days?

One avenue is to work under the table (thus showing no income) and then claim benefits like welfare, food stamps, disability, free phone, etc.

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:21:18 PM
Yet I'm the one with unrealistic economic ideology. :P

Finding a job is no fucking fun.  Being unemployed sucks ass.  Being in a low paying job sucks ass.  Having a family you can't support sucks ass.

But look at the alternative you are suggesting.  Have the courage of your convictions and see if legally mandating that each and every job in the US pay "a living wage" would have the effects you intend.

This is the part of the discussion when Captain Occupy wigs out and throws together some random slogans.  Don't be that guy.

Quote from: fahdiz on April 29, 2013, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2013, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Fun factoid:  every single Mickey D's CEO has started out as a grunt and climbed the ranks.

That's actually really cool.

It is. Makes it kind of a shame that they're in bed with all the companies who are completely assfucking our food supply.

I don't think the supply of food is in any danger.  There's a ton of fatness going around.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 05:32:34 PM
This is the part of the discussion when Captain Occupy wigs out and throws together some random slogans.  Don't be that guy.

When he throws a review of Elvis' Kid Galahad on you, then you'll be sorry.

 :lol:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 05:32:34 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 05:21:18 PM
Yet I'm the one with unrealistic economic ideology. :P

Finding a job is no fucking fun.  Being unemployed sucks ass.  Being in a low paying job sucks ass.  Having a family you can't support sucks ass.

But look at the alternative you are suggesting.  Have the courage of your convictions and see if legally mandating that each and every job in the US pay "a living wage" would have the effects you intend.

This is the part of the discussion when Captain Occupy wigs out and throws together some random slogans.  Don't be that guy.

I don't think you'd notice a dime's worth of difference if every job in the U.S. started paying at least $10-12 an hour tomorrow.  OK, maybe about a dime per purchase.  I wouldn't hurt, would you?

In the medium-term, however, we need to start thinking about how to transition from the job = life paradigm that cannot function in a society with billions of redundant human beings.  But a significant increase in the minwage would be a concrete step to a better, less unequal society that we could take today.

It may also help to address the lack of aggregate demand our late-stage capitalism is experiencing--that certainly makes more sense than the idea that lower taxes will increase growth.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2013, 06:28:28 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 05:32:34 PM
This is the part of the discussion when Captain Occupy wigs out and throws together some random slogans.  Don't be that guy.

When he throws a review of Elvis' Kid Galahad on you, then you'll be sorry.

^_^

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 06:39:13 PM
I don't think you'd notice a dime's worth of difference if every job in the U.S. started paying at least $10-12 an hour tomorrow.  OK, maybe about a dime per purchase.  I wouldn't hurt, would you?

And you came to this prediction how again?

First of all, you chose an hourly wage that's already close to a lot of state minimum wages.  But if you were to really increase the minimum wage, I think the increase would be much more than a dime a purchase.  Cost of labor is the biggest input for a lot of markets.  You can't increase the price of your most significant input by a substantial amount and not expect to see any increase in output price.

Why do you think a Happy Meal costs $8 in the UK?  Why do you think a medium pizza costs $20 in Denmark?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 06:50:27 PM
Why do you think a Happy Meal costs $8 in the UK?  Why do you think a medium pizza costs $20 in Denmark?

Does Ide think those things? :unsure:

Perhaps there is some other solution to add to that as well. Minimum wage is good, but it's not the cause of the issues. Wages rose in conjunction with productivity until 1971, and have stayed flat since then, despite the minimum wage rising faster in the post-70s period than before. If the old trend had continued the average wage in the US would be a hundred grand a year.

Is it possible to legislate a tie between productivity and wages in a free economy?  I'm totally down for that.

Anyway, maybe more later, dudes.  Gotta go.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 06:39:13 PM
I don't think you'd notice a dime's worth of difference if every job in the U.S. started paying at least $10-12 an hour tomorrow.  OK, maybe about a dime per purchase.  I wouldn't hurt, would you?

And you came to this prediction how again?

First of all, you chose an hourly wage that's already close to a lot of state minimum wages.  But if you were to really increase the minimum wage, I think the increase would be much more than a dime a purchase.  Cost of labor is the biggest input for a lot of markets.  You can't increase the price of your most significant input by a substantial amount and not expect to see any increase in output price.

Why do you think a Happy Meal costs $8 in the UK?  Why do you think a medium pizza costs $20 in Denmark?

It doesn't, it's nearer the equivalent of $3.5-$4.00.

Critical thinking supposedly learned from the liberal arts needs to be applied to picking romantic/marriage partners. So much wealth/potential is destroyed in abusive relationships, divorce, and neglected children.

Quote from: mongers on April 29, 2013, 07:19:17 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 06:39:13 PM
I don't think you'd notice a dime's worth of difference if every job in the U.S. started paying at least $10-12 an hour tomorrow.  OK, maybe about a dime per purchase.  I wouldn't hurt, would you?

And you came to this prediction how again?

First of all, you chose an hourly wage that's already close to a lot of state minimum wages.  But if you were to really increase the minimum wage, I think the increase would be much more than a dime a purchase.  Cost of labor is the biggest input for a lot of markets.  You can't increase the price of your most significant input by a substantial amount and not expect to see any increase in output price.

Why do you think a Happy Meal costs $8 in the UK?  Why do you think a medium pizza costs $20 in Denmark?

It doesn't, it's nearer the equivalent of $3.5-$4.00.

Yeah that's what my question was about as my quick google did not turn up the prices that Yi was suggesting.

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 07:21:00 PM

Quote from: mongers on April 29, 2013, 07:19:17 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on April 29, 2013, 06:39:13 PM
I don't think you'd notice a dime's worth of difference if every job in the U.S. started paying at least $10-12 an hour tomorrow.  OK, maybe about a dime per purchase.  I wouldn't hurt, would you?

And you came to this prediction how again?

First of all, you chose an hourly wage that's already close to a lot of state minimum wages.  But if you were to really increase the minimum wage, I think the increase would be much more than a dime a purchase.  Cost of labor is the biggest input for a lot of markets.  You can't increase the price of your most significant input by a substantial amount and not expect to see any increase in output price.

Why do you think a Happy Meal costs $8 in the UK?  Why do you think a medium pizza costs $20 in Denmark?

It doesn't, it's nearer the equivalent of $3.5-$4.00.

Yeah that's what my question was about as my quick google did not turn up the prices that Yi was suggesting.

Yeah, those things are typically a couple of quid, so say 20 minutes of minimum wage labour, maybe that's a better comparator ?   

Interesting to see if one of our tame Danes could chip in with the cost of a pizza over there; I'm certainly not googling for it.   :)

I find the price of pizza argument unconvincing.  Even assuming that higher minimum wage would lead to price of pizza going up, it's unlikely to go up by the same proportion as the minimum wage.  For people on the low end of the scale, that would still be a win, no?  And it would be a bigger win for the product that are less labor-intensive.

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 07:44:56 PM
I find the price of pizza argument unconvincing.  Even assuming that higher minimum wage would lead to price of pizza going up, it's unlikely to go up by the same proportion as the minimum wage.  For people on the low end of the scale, that would still be a win, no?  And it would be a bigger win for the product that are less labor-intensive.

It's an unequivocal win for people making minimum wage, unless price elasticity of demand results in the elimination of their job.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 07:47:42 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 07:44:56 PM
I find the price of pizza argument unconvincing.  Even assuming that higher minimum wage would lead to price of pizza going up, it's unlikely to go up by the same proportion as the minimum wage.  For people on the low end of the scale, that would still be a win, no?  And it would be a bigger win for the product that are less labor-intensive.

It's an unequivocal win for people making minimum wage, unless price elasticity of demand results in the elimination of their job.

Pizza's like gas, price inelastic, people have to have both.   :)

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 07:47:42 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 07:44:56 PM
I find the price of pizza argument unconvincing.  Even assuming that higher minimum wage would lead to price of pizza going up, it's unlikely to go up by the same proportion as the minimum wage.  For people on the low end of the scale, that would still be a win, no?  And it would be a bigger win for the product that are less labor-intensive.

It's an unequivocal win for people making minimum wage, unless price elasticity of demand results in the elimination of their job.

I used to believe that higher minimum wage leads to higher unemployment, since it kinda sounds like basic economics, but my impression is that economic studies don't really bear that out.  It could be that there is a non-basic second-order effect that largely counteracts the obvious conclusion.

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 07:54:25 PM
I used to believe that higher wage leads to higher unemployment, since it kinda sounds like basic economics, but my impression is that economic studies don't really bear that out.  It could be that there is a non-basic second-order effect that largely minimizes the obvious conclusion.

AFAIK there is exactly one study, on New Jersey fast food, that purports to reverse the slope of the demand for labor curve.  It's findings have been widely disputed, and AFAIK there has been no other study that produced a similar result.

Bottom line, you pass an increase in the min wage in your state, don't run crying about bad management and unfair shareholder value when unemployment goes up.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 07:54:25 PM
I used to believe that higher wage leads to higher unemployment, since it kinda sounds like basic economics, but my impression is that economic studies don't really bear that out.  It could be that there is a non-basic second-order effect that largely minimizes the obvious conclusion.

AFAIK there is exactly one study, on New Jersey fast food, that purports to reverse the slope of the demand for labor curve.  It's findings have been widely disputed, and AFAIK there has been no other study that produced a similar result.

Bottom line, you pass an increase in the min wage in your state, don't run crying about bad management and unfair shareholder value when unemployment goes up.

So why does Denmark with their $20 pizzas have less than 5% unemployment rate?  Could it be that social-democratic model, at least in the long run, has less obvious and tangible benefits that more than make up for the Econ 101 stuff?

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 08:04:16 PM
So why does Denmark with their $20 pizzas have less than 5% unemployment rate?  Could it be that social-democratic model, at least in the long run, has less obvious and tangible benefits that more than make up for the Econ 101 stuff?

It's a bit of a mystery to me as well.  One could theoretically reproduce Denmark's result by doubling *all* wages in the US.  Then demand for pizza would not drop as the price went up. 

The part that confounds me however, is how they insulate their labor market from the external accounts.  Why have they not priced themselves out of all export markets?  Why have their import competers not disappeared?

A tentative hypothesis is that as part of the Scandinavian social contract workers in tradeable sectors in effect accept lower wages than they could command internationally.  Say for example Hollywood actors accepted $100,00/year instead of demanding $20 million a movie.

I don't think we've ever increased the minimum wage enough in one go to hit the threshold that would put a serious dent in the demand. Something like 2% of the population makes the minimum right? Could be wrong but it's not a lot, afaik. Now if we had hiked it by twenty bucks in one go, that might be different.

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 08:04:16 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 07:54:25 PM
I used to believe that higher wage leads to higher unemployment, since it kinda sounds like basic economics, but my impression is that economic studies don't really bear that out.  It could be that there is a non-basic second-order effect that largely minimizes the obvious conclusion.

AFAIK there is exactly one study, on New Jersey fast food, that purports to reverse the slope of the demand for labor curve.  It's findings have been widely disputed, and AFAIK there has been no other study that produced a similar result.

Bottom line, you pass an increase in the min wage in your state, don't run crying about bad management and unfair shareholder value when unemployment goes up.

So why does Denmark with their $20 pizzas have less than 5% unemployment rate?  Could it be that social-democratic model, at least in the long run, has less obvious and tangible benefits that more than make up for the Econ 101 stuff?

We should definitely be more like Denmark: small, ethnically/linguistically homogeneous, energy self-sufficient, big oil/gas profits per citizen. :)

Norway has the oil.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 08:12:46 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 08:04:16 PM
So why does Denmark with their $20 pizzas have less than 5% unemployment rate?  Could it be that social-democratic model, at least in the long run, has less obvious and tangible benefits that more than make up for the Econ 101 stuff?

It's a bit of a mystery to me as well.  One could theoretically reproduce Denmark's result by doubling *all* wages in the US. Then demand for pizza would not drop as the price went up. 

The part that confounds me however, is how they insulate their labor market from the external accounts.  Why have they not priced themselves out of all export markets?  Why have their import competers not disappeared?

A tentative hypothesis is that as part of the Scandinavian social contract workers in tradeable sectors in effect accept lower wages than they could command internationally.  Say for example Hollywood actors accepted $100,00/year instead of demanding $20 million a movie.

I can't see that working as they have much less income inequality as compared to the US, it would more be like quadrupling minimum wage, doubling blue collar/low middle class, leaving the rest of the middle class even and probably halving and halving again the wealthy's income. 

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 08:12:46 PM
It's a bit of a mystery to me as well.

I think it's a mystery well-worth looking into before just assuming that the theory is correct and that reality is mistaken, don't you agree?

QuoteOne could theoretically reproduce Denmark's result by doubling *all* wages in the US.  Then demand for pizza would not drop as the price went up. 

I disagree.  I don't think Denmark established their minimum wage all in one fell swoop. 

One of my guesses is that a very low wage job can trap you.  You barely earn what you need, and after you're done working, there isn't a lot of "surplus" time, money, and energy to better your lot, unless you're just one of those exceptional people.  As a rule, people on average are not exceptional, so devising a society that requires them to be exceptional is unlikely to work well.  Therefore, when you couple high minimum wages with good safety net, you greatly increase the standard of living for those who are still employed, and free the most marginal workers from their dead-end jobs and allow them to improve their human capital.

Another theory is that poor people spend more of their money than rich people (turns out it may or may not be true, but let's assume it is).  In that case, raising the minimum wage shifts the distribution of wealth and income between the rich and the poor, and raises aggregate demand that creates more jobs.

Yet another theory is that minimum wage is just part of the social-democratic model, and the advantage of the social-democratic model is that few people go to waste.  When you minimize the loss of human potential, you maximize the average productivity, with all the resulting positive effects on GDP and employment.  It's not the kind of effect that materializes overnight, but over a couple of generations it can really deliver, and compensate for what should in theory be a more lethargic economic model.

QuoteThe part that confounds me however, is how they insulate their labor market from the external accounts.  Why have they not priced themselves out of all export markets?  Why have their import competers not disappeared?

There could be an efficiency wage effect.  If high minimum wages do indeed increase unemployment, then it just makes the still-employed all the more motivated to stay employed, rather than be close to indifferent about keeping their job.

Quote from: Phillip V on April 29, 2013, 08:24:09 PM
We should definitely be more like Denmark: small, ethnically/linguistically homogeneous, energy self-sufficient, big oil/gas profits per citizen. :)

And most importantly, we could be more highly educated, as this post demonstrates.  :)

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 08:32:30 PM
I think it's a mystery well-worth looking into before just assuming that the theory is correct and that reality is mistaken, don't you agree?

This snarky line would work a lot better if there weren't example after example of countries that had priced their labor out of international competitiveness.  I'm not assuming anything more than you are. 

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 08:40:29 PM

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 08:32:30 PM
I think it's a mystery well-worth looking into before just assuming that the theory is correct and that reality is mistaken, don't you agree?

This snarky line would work a lot better if there weren't example after example of countries that had priced their labor out of international competitiveness.  I'm not assuming anything more than you are.

You don't need countless counter-examples to have a second look at your theory, especially if you really are honestly trying to understand the world as best as you can.  Just one of them can suffice to make you conclude that there are important explanatory variables being left out.

Norway has seriously jacked up prices: I saw a pizza hut selling a normal pizza for $60 in the airport. Iirc typical value meals were in excess of $15 at McDonalds. That is partially driven by the social model, but also the oil.

Admittedly, I didn't look very long...but I didn't see evidence of $20 pizzas unless you are talking something a little more upscale (or just large) - so on par with what typically happens here.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2013, 08:49:53 PM
Norway has seriously jacked up prices: I saw a pizza hut selling a normal pizza for $60 in the airport. Iirc typical value meals were in excess of $15 at McDonalds. That is partially driven by the social model, but also the oil.

I wonder if there is a division by zero that happens somewhere in modern economies where service accounts for most of the GDP.  After all, if everything was service, and there are no imports/exports, then prices and wages could scale up by any multiple without there being any noticeable effect.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2013, 08:49:53 PM
Norway has seriously jacked up prices: I saw a pizza hut selling a normal pizza for $60 in the airport. Iirc typical value meals were in excess of $15 at McDonalds. That is partially driven by the social model, but also the oil.

Maybe because it was pizza hut in the airport.  I bet it costs extra to fly it out to your house.

There is truth to it.  Everything is jacked up in the airports.

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 08:57:42 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2013, 08:49:53 PM
Norway has seriously jacked up prices: I saw a pizza hut selling a normal pizza for $60 in the airport. Iirc typical value meals were in excess of $15 at McDonalds. That is partially driven by the social model, but also the oil.

I wonder if there is a division by zero that happens somewhere in modern economies where service accounts for most of the GDP.  After all, if everything was service, and there are no imports/exports, then prices and wages could scale up by any multiple without there being any noticeable effect.

Norway's service sector is probably comparatively smaller than most wealthy countries because of the oil industry crowding it out. The entire country only has something like 5-6 million people.

Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2013, 09:01:16 PM
There is truth to it.  Everything is jacked up in the airports.

I left the airport (but not Oslo). It wasn't just the airport.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 08:12:46 PM
The part that confounds me however, is how they insulate their labor market from the external accounts.  Why have they not priced themselves out of all export markets?  Why have their import competers not disappeared?

By focusing on sectors where either labor plays a minor part (petrochemical, energy, pharma) or cost is second is to other concerns like quality or robustness (pumps, actuators, instrumentation). R&D can play a big role here.
That's also how Germany manages to export shit. They are not exactly cheap either.

It's something you can see in traditional sectors as well. We've worked in a few newly-automated vineyards in the area.

Quote from: Iormlund on April 29, 2013, 09:22:24 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 08:12:46 PM
The part that confounds me however, is how they insulate their labor market from the external accounts.  Why have they not priced themselves out of all export markets?  Why have their import competers not disappeared?

By focusing on sectors where either labor plays a minor part (petrochemical, energy, pharma) or cost is second is to other concerns like quality or robustness (pumps, actuators, instrumentation). R&D can play a big role here.
That's also how Germany manages to export shit. They are not exactly cheap either.

It's something you can see in traditional sectors as well. We've worked in a few newly-automated vineyards in the area.

Yes, it looks like sectors of the Danish economy have more in common with the German way of doing things than they do with a semi-mythic Nordic socialist paradise.

In general most empirical studies in the U.S. won't show a huge impact from upping the minimum wage because historically increases in the minimum wage have mostly just resulted in lots of low income workers having their wages be "closer to the floor" than they already were. Very few people actually get paid minimum wage, so it's an effective raise for such a small portion of the workforce it is not surprising it has little real impact on anyone. By the time the next minimum wage hike goes through, the low income workers whose wages were so low as to be near the "new minimum" have gotten enough adjustments upwards they're just ready to have the new floor come up to meet them.

As Hunger Strike Grows, Guantánamo Adds Staff

JOB OPPORTUNITY: "Medical reinforcements" needed at American prison in Cuba to help carry out force-feedings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/us/guantanamo-adds-medical-staff-amid-hunger-strike.html

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 06:50:27 PM
First of all, you chose an hourly wage that's already close to a lot of state minimum wages.  But if you were to really increase the minimum wage, I think the increase would be much more than a dime a purchase.  Cost of labor is the biggest input for a lot of markets.  You can't increase the price of your most significant input by a substantial amount and not expect to see any increase in output price.

Why do you think a Happy Meal costs $8 in the UK?  Why do you think a medium pizza costs $20 in Denmark?

It's not due to labor cost differentials, that's for sure.

Actually looking at the Economist's Big Mac Index, the cost of a Big Mac in the UK is slightly lower than in the US; the cost in Denmark is only slightly higher.  The most expensive Big Mac is in Venezuela by far; Brazil, Uruguay, Colombia and Turkey are also higher than the US price.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2013, 09:04:41 PM
Norway's service sector is probably comparatively smaller than most wealthy countries because of the oil industry crowding it out. The entire country only has something like 5-6 million people.

Correct.  Also the inflow of oil revenues keeps the kroner high.  Also the country is not connected to the large continental logistics hubs.

Quote from: mongers on April 29, 2013, 08:29:17 PM
I can't see that working as they have much less income inequality as compared to the US, it would more be like quadrupling minimum wage, doubling blue collar/low middle class, leaving the rest of the middle class even and probably halving and halving again the wealthy's income.

I think it's more likely that the wealthy simply leave. They get that low gini through attrition.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2013, 10:30:23 AM

It's not due to labor cost differentials, that's for sure.

Actually looking at the Economist's Big Mac Index, the cost of a Big Mac in the UK is slightly lower than in the US; the cost in Denmark is only slightly higher.  The most expensive Big Mac is in Venezuela by far; Brazil, Uruguay, Colombia and Turkey are also higher than the US price.

You sure you're not looking at Big Mac/average wages?  I have a hard time believing that the nominal price of a Big Mac is slightly lower in the UK than in the US.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 08:12:46 PM
The part that confounds me however, is how they insulate their labor market from the external accounts.  Why have they not priced themselves out of all export markets?  Why have their import competers not disappeared?

Here is the list of things they export according to CIA factbook:
machinery and instruments, meat and meat products, dairy products, fish, pharmaceuticals, furniture, windmills

Machinery and instruments is probably high-tech stuff that isn't easily substituted by a lower wage country. Meat, dairy and fish are probably sold locally and most of the poor countries in the world aren't able to compete with a highly efficient western agri-industrial farm anyway. Pharmaceuticals is probably not price sensitive either. Furniture can be automated in production and probably doesn't need much manpower. Windmills is high tech manufacturing and Denmark has one of the world market leaders.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2013, 11:47:00 AM
You sure you're not looking at Big Mac/average wages? 

I was citing to the "raw index" which is just the price of a Big Mac in that country converted to US $.

I suspect based on the comments to the thread that you may be overrating the degree to which per hour labor costs determine final product costs or export competitiveness.

After a meeting, someone had a random note about some form that no one had heard of. I sent out an email to the people in charge of the forms asking whether the form exists. I titled the message, "Existential Question on Forms".

I expected to be stoned when I walked into the office, but apparently no one got the joke. Liberal arts education in this country has gone to hell.

Quote from: alfred russel on May 01, 2013, 02:10:14 PM

I expected to be stoned when I walked into the office,

OK, FB.

Quote from: The Brain on May 01, 2013, 02:13:08 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on May 01, 2013, 02:10:14 PM

I expected to be stoned when I walked into the office,

OK, FB.

:lol:

Quote from: The Brain on May 01, 2013, 02:13:08 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on May 01, 2013, 02:10:14 PM

I expected to be stoned when I walked into the office,

OK, FB.

Most of his time at work he's wasted. Is that the best way to get high on the company ladder?

Quote from: Jacob on April 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 19, 2013, 07:10:26 PM
How much is $200 a month in your earliest earning years going to be worth if invested and compounded over your career?

Who the fuck invests $200/month of their earliest earnings?

:unsure:

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
63k is about right for a network engineer type I'd say.

Even for a guy straight out of school with no experience? :hmm:

Yes.

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 01, 2013, 04:05:41 PM

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
63k is about right for a network engineer type I'd say.

Even for a guy straight out of school with no experience? :hmm:

Yes.

It helps they can actually do shit, unlike a lot of graduates past (ie me et al) and present. 

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 01, 2013, 04:05:41 PM

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 02:33:23 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
63k is about right for a network engineer type I'd say.

Even for a guy straight out of school with no experience? :hmm:

Yes.

UIUC lists the average starting salary for a new BS in CS at $72k. It helps that the bulk of these jobs are in high cost-of-living places like Silicon Valley

Quote from: Maximus on May 01, 2013, 04:34:47 PM
UIUC lists the average starting salary for a new BS in CS at $72k. It helps that the bulk of these jobs are in high cost-of-living places like Silicon Valley

Even around here they should pull $61k - $63k, unless they are schlubs who barely graduated.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 18, 2013, 08:15:32 PM
:yes: And not only that - reducing education solely to its utility in one's job is also not the right way to think about education.

I could see it working in the USSR.

QuoteI used to believe that higher minimum wage leads to higher unemployment, since it kinda sounds like basic economics, but my impression is that economic studies don't really bear that out.  It could be that there is a non-basic second-order effect that largely counteracts the obvious conclusion.

I think it depends. In the UK we introduced a minimum wage in the late 90s which the Tories warned would be a threat to employment, that didn't turn out to be true. It's subsequently increased at a low rate every year since.

Here research was done on raising the minimum wage to the 'living wage' level that some firms pay in London and the predicted impact was pretty negligible - but higher for the young unskilled, though we already have a lower minimum wage for people under 18 and 18-21 so that could help mitigate that.

Also I think the major minimum wage sectors - at least I'd guess - are actually ones were international competitiveness matters less: cleaners, maintenance, service staff in hotels. I think the minimum wage would have more impact if it were still the case that we had lots of entry-level factory jobs that were paying that sort of wage.

Personally I'd love to see the minimum wage substantially increased and the benefits that the government give to low-income workers, through tax credits, cut. Ideally give employers a payroll tax cut or something with the money. I think in this country one of the problems of the last Labour government was that we sort of nationalised low-paid employees and I think it's wrong for a country to need to subsidise low-paid work to that extent and make it part of the welfare state. Work should be enough.

Obviously anything like this needs to be done gradually, but I don't think a minimum wage increase necessarily needs to kill jobs.

QuoteNorway has the oil.

And most of Scandinavia, as a percentage, has as many 'foreign born' population as the US. And they're not Mexican. And Danish is tougher to learn than English.

QuoteI think it's more likely that the wealthy simply leave. They get that low gini through attrition.

I don't think that's it. It's certainly not my experience of Scandinavia or Scandinavians and I'm sure someone would've written about it. I think the level of social trust is very high which is key for wealthy and even middle class Scandis (or Dutch for that matter) supporting this sort of system.

Quote from: Sheilbh on May 01, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
I don't think that's it. It's certainly not my experience of Scandinavia or Scandinavians and I'm sure someone would've written about it. I think the level of social trust is very high which is key for wealthy and even middle class Scandis (or Dutch for that matter) supporting this sort of system.

Any idea why there are so few big international companies from there? Is it just a function of a low population or is there another reason? I think one of the things you see in places with a lot of wealthy people is that there are a lot of huge companies based there. Everybody knows Ikea and Volvo, but it sure seems Scandinavians are underrepresented on that level.

Well America is the best so hardly fair to compare.

I don't know what the big companies per capita looks like for Sweden.

It's easy to forget Securitas (270k employees) when discussing big Swedish companies.

Quote from: The Brain on May 01, 2013, 09:39:21 PM
It's easy to forget Securitas (270k employees) when discussing big Swedish companies.

No kidding?  Didn't know that.

Saab group's aerospace and military stuff is fairly large.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 01, 2013, 09:30:25 PM
Any idea why there are so few big international companies from there? Is it just a function of a low population or is there another reason? I think one of the things you see in places with a lot of wealthy people is that there are a lot of huge companies based there. Everybody knows Ikea and Volvo, but it sure seems Scandinavians are underrepresented on that level.

They seem to hit above their weight if anything: Ikea, Volvo, Ericsson, Skanska, H&M, Nordea, Sandvik, DNB, Det Norske Veritas and so on. There's probably even more when you get into oil and other energy companies. They're all in pretty diverse sectors too. When I was working I was in a consultancy firm that advised companies with expats and international assignments. We had someone who just dealt with our Scandinavian clients.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 01, 2013, 09:30:25 PM
Any idea why there are so few big international companies from there? Is it just a function of a low population or is there another reason? I think one of the things you see in places with a lot of wealthy people is that there are a lot of huge companies based there. Everybody knows Ikea and Volvo, but it sure seems Scandinavians are underrepresented on that level.

I don't know how you rate "few" international companies. Big Danish companies include:

• the A.P Møller-Mærsk group (the largest container shipping and supply ship operating company in the world, amongst other concerns)
• Arla Foods (7th largest dairy company in the world; is Danish-Swedish)
• Lego
• Carlsberg (4th largest brewery group in the world)
• Vestas (largest manufacturer of wind turbines in the world)
• ISS (facilities company with about $1B annual revenue)
• Grundfos (largest manufacturer of pumps)
• Bang & Olufsen
• Novo Nordisk (pharmaceutical company with $10B+ annual revenue)

I'm pretty sure Sweden is similar.

How many big companies would you expect from a country of less than 6 million?

One problem that is often pointed out in Sweden is the fact that all our big companies are old. For whatever reason new companies do not seem to grow huge.

Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2013, 09:42:08 AM
One problem that is often pointed out in Sweden is the fact that all our big companies are old. For whatever reason new companies do not seem to grow huge.

Out of the 30 blue chip companies that make up Germany's DAX30 index, more than half were founded in the 19th century. The rest is often spin-offs from one of the others or former state monopolies.

There are so many barriers now, plus the big old ones own the government and keep the little guys from competing with them effectively.

Quote from: Jacob on May 01, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
How many big companies would you expect from a country of less than 6 million?

That's about what I would expect.  A variety of mid-sized specialist corps.  Then again, the true megacorp is a pretty rare beast these days.  It's a sad, sad world we live in.

Quote from: Neil on May 02, 2013, 12:26:21 PM

Quote from: Jacob on May 01, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
How many big companies would you expect from a country of less than 6 million?

That's about what I would expect.  A variety of mid-sized specialist corps.  Then again, the true megacorp is a pretty rare beast these days.  It's a sad, sad world we live in.

We have a Renraku fan.

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 02, 2013, 12:48:25 PM

Quote from: Neil on May 02, 2013, 12:26:21 PM

Quote from: Jacob on May 01, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
How many big companies would you expect from a country of less than 6 million?

That's about what I would expect.  A variety of mid-sized specialist corps.  Then again, the true megacorp is a pretty rare beast these days.  It's a sad, sad world we live in.

We have a Renraku fan.

I'm just saying, wouldn't it be great to live in an arcology where you don't get killed and used for parts by some crazy AI?

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 03:14:36 PM

Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2013, 03:00:48 PM

Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 02:59:32 PM
Egg White McMuffins!

Are those any good?  I haven't been to breakfast at McDonald's in a while (fortunately for my cholesterol).

I've no idea. I believe the difference in calories is like 50 and I was like, mmm, why bother?

So I tried it this morning. Not really that much different from a regular one minus the egg yolk. The "cheddar" tastes basically the same as the American cheese on a regular one.  I guess then with less calories and cholesterol they are a fine substitution.

Oddly, the refer to them as Delights. I was confused when they called my order as that wasn't what I thought I'd ordered. :D

What is "American cheese"?

:mellow:

Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:50:17 AM
What is "American cheese"?

:hmm: That's actually a good question.  I know what it's not, but what is it exactly is something I don't know.

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

I dont know what that is either.  I have never heard the term used.

Quote from: DGuller on May 03, 2013, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:50:17 AM
What is "American cheese"?

:hmm: That's actually a good question.  I know what it's not, but what is it exactly is something I don't know.

Innovative packaging, not good for you..etc.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ln528n9Sb21qa8zbgo1_400.jpg&hash=ea6f2e3f5e4ad287d5ea865972258dec8c352ce2)

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:56:43 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

I dont know what that is either.  I have never heard the term used.

Well I'd also say getting snobby after a discussion of McDonald's is a little...out of place to say the least. ;)

Quote from: 11B4V on May 03, 2013, 10:58:15 AM

Quote from: DGuller on May 03, 2013, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:50:17 AM
What is "American cheese"?

:hmm: That's actually a good question.  I know what it's not, but what is it exactly is something I don't know.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ln528n9Sb21qa8zbgo1_400.jpg&hash=ea6f2e3f5e4ad287d5ea865972258dec8c352ce2)

I don't think a bottle of easy cheese marked cheddar is what most people refer to when they say American cheese. :mellow:

Kraft singles.

:mmm:

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:58:53 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:56:43 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

I dont know what that is either.  I have never heard the term used.

Well I'd also say getting snobby after a discussion of McDonald's is a little...out of place to say the least. ;)

When it comes to American cheese, it's not really snobbishness in play.  It's just a disdain for a truly horrible food-like product.  If you walk on the street and come across a dog turd, it's not really snobbish to avoid it instead of taking a bite out of it.

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:58:53 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:56:43 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

I dont know what that is either.  I have never heard the term used.

Well I'd also say getting snobby after a discussion of McDonald's is a little...out of place to say the least. ;)

Its not about snobbery.  I just have no idea what you are talking about when you say "American cheese".  Since you used the term I would have expected that you would know what it meant.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2013, 11:06:40 AM
Kraft singles.

Ah, ok, I know what that is. 

Google "google".  Find out what it can be used for.

Quote from: DGuller on May 03, 2013, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:58:53 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:56:43 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

I dont know what that is either.  I have never heard the term used.

Well I'd also say getting snobby after a discussion of McDonald's is a little...out of place to say the least. ;)

When it comes to American cheese, it's not really snobbishness in play.  It's just a disdain for a truly horrible food-like product.  If you walk on the street and come across a dog turd, it's not really snobbish to avoid it instead of taking a bite out of it.

I just took away your American card. You are back to being a Slav.

 :cry:

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:17:16 AM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2013, 11:06:40 AM
Kraft singles.

Ah, ok, I know what that is. 

Yeah heavily processed cheese.  Yummy.

Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 11:19:44 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:17:16 AM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2013, 11:06:40 AM
Kraft singles.

Ah, ok, I know what that is. 

Yeah heavily processed cheese.  Yummy.

We used to eat that when I was a kid and my parents couldnt afford real cheese.

Quote from: DGuller on May 03, 2013, 11:17:42 AM
Google "google".  Find out what it can be used for.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=american+cheese

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Since you used the term I would have expected that you would know what it meant.

Obviously. Also subsequent posts do show it is food snobbery (apparently mixed with ignorance) so suck it.

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 03, 2013, 11:18:03 AM

Quote from: DGuller on May 03, 2013, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:58:53 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:56:43 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
Actually wiki suggests you might call them Canadian singles or Canadian slices.

I dont know what that is either.  I have never heard the term used.

Well I'd also say getting snobby after a discussion of McDonald's is a little...out of place to say the least. ;)

When it comes to American cheese, it's not really snobbishness in play.  It's just a disdain for a truly horrible food-like product.  If you walk on the street and come across a dog turd, it's not really snobbish to avoid it instead of taking a bite out of it.

I just took away your American card. You are back to being a Slav.

:hug:

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 11:23:40 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Since you used the term I would have expected that you would know what it meant.

Obviously. Also subsequent posts do show it is food snobbery (apparently mixed with ignorance) so suck it.

Now that I know what it is you are eating, you bet.  How can you eat that crap?

It's as fake as Miracle Whip is, yet there are weirdoes around here who actually prefer Miracle Whip to real mayo. :yuk:

Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 11:29:18 AM
It's as fake as Miracle Whip is, yet there are weirdoes around here who actually prefer Miracle Whip to real mayo. :yuk:

Go fix your gun.

It is in perfect working condition now. :)

I want a block of government cheese now.  :(

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:25:17 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 11:23:40 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Since you used the term I would have expected that you would know what it meant.

Obviously. Also subsequent posts do show it is food snobbery (apparently mixed with ignorance) so suck it.

Now that I know what it is you are eating, you bet.  How can you eat that crap?

Because it can be tasty - especially when you get it from a deli and they slices it off the cheese block. I think I already said recently that cheese product clearly isn't the best but sometimes just get a hankering for basics.

Believe it or not, there are grades of quality with American cheese as well, ranging from stuff that's mostly oil :yuk: to stuff that's more or less :D cheese.

When it's decent, it can be pretty good. One of its best qualities is that it melts very well, unlike a lot of cheddars.

Yep. There is good American cheese. But people usually associate it with Kraft Singles which are...not actually cheese.

It was created specifically for the purpose of melting on cheeseburgers.

Ok, so when you guys say "American cheese", what you mean is anything from real cheddar cheese to something which isnt at all?

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 03, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
There is good American cheese.

Sure.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.walmartimages.com%2Fi%2Fp%2F00%2F07%2F83%2F54%2F70%2F0007835470332_500X500.jpg&hash=46222c080f844a2ed8960b915a60e0ee9b485a8b)

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 03, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
Yep. There is good American cheese. But people usually associate it with Kraft Singles which are...not actually cheese.

It was created specifically for the purpose of melting on cheeseburgers.

It's not like it is hard to melt cheddar on your burger...

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 10:50:17 AM
What is "American cheese"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APmr84rrVtU

There is only ONE acceptable use for American cheese, and that is as topping for a Philly cheesesteak (though I generally prefer provolone myself).  NO OTHER use of American 'cheese' is acceptable. :)

Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 03, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
Yep. There is good American cheese. But people usually associate it with Kraft Singles which are...not actually cheese.

It was created specifically for the purpose of melting on cheeseburgers.

It's not like it is hard to melt cheddar on your burger...

Yeah, but the texture it takes is less desirable. It gets oily. Or at least was thought to be so when they decided to create American.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 03, 2013, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 03, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
Yep. There is good American cheese. But people usually associate it with Kraft Singles which are...not actually cheese.

It was created specifically for the purpose of melting on cheeseburgers.

It's not like it is hard to melt cheddar on your burger...

Yeah, but the texture it takes is less desirable. It gets oily. Or at least was thought to be so when they decided to create American.

I havent noticed that.  After the burgers are finished on the grill I shave some pieces of cheddar off a block and let them melt.  Nothing oily about it.

 :licklips:



(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fup.picr.de%2F7924242ugf.jpg&hash=29f191fbb2b5b65a0ad4fdea222a024d7dd343d4)

figures :rolleyes:

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 12:01:12 PM
I havent noticed that.  After the burgers are finished on the grill I shave some pieces of cheddar off a block and let them melt.  Nothing oily about it.

I notice it if you let the cheese start to solidify again, but not freshly melted.

Re: American cheese, I think one of the biggest culture shocks coming down here was the willingness to completely debase the national name like that.

Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 12:01:12 PM
I havent noticed that.  After the burgers are finished on the grill I shave some pieces of cheddar off a block and let them melt.  Nothing oily about it.

I notice it if you let the cheese start to solidify again, but not freshly melted.

Ah, that is never a problem around my house. :D

Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
Re: American cheese, I think one of the biggest culture shocks coming down here was the willingness to completely debase the national name like that.

I think our cuisine is generally not know for being highbrow (though we certainly have highbrow sorts).

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:45:25 AM
Ok, so when you guys say "American cheese", what you mean is anything from real cheddar cheese to something which isnt at all?

I guess yeah. I mean some of that depends on where you put Colby in relation to Cheddar but yeah it does cover cheese to cheese product.

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 11:23:40 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Since you used the term I would have expected that you would know what it meant.

Obviously. Also subsequent posts do show it is food snobbery (apparently mixed with ignorance) so suck it.

Garbon accusing someone else of snobbery.   :hmm:

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 01:19:12 PM

Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
Re: American cheese, I think one of the biggest culture shocks coming down here was the willingness to completely debase the national name like that.

I think our cuisine is generally not know for being highbrow (though we certainly have highbrow sorts).

It's not that it's not highbrow. It's that it's not actually food. There's a part of the American identity that we're solid, genuine and dependable if a bit rough around the edges. Processed cheese product (and many other ubiquitous products) is the opposite of that.

Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 11:51:43 AM
There is only ONE acceptable use for American cheese, and that is as topping for a Philly cheesesteak (though I generally prefer provolone myself).  NO OTHER use of American 'cheese' is acceptable. :)

Holy shit.  YOU are going food snob on us?  I mean, I can understand cc.  His pathetic attempts to be snobby are almost Martinusian, but that's what he does these days.  But you're a fan of gas station food, for heaven's sakes.

Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 01:29:23 PM
It's not that it's not highbrow. It's that it's not actually food.

Sure it is.  Vegetable oil and food coloring.  That's food.

Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 02:29:44 PM

Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 11:51:43 AM
There is only ONE acceptable use for American cheese, and that is as topping for a Philly cheesesteak (though I generally prefer provolone myself).  NO OTHER use of American 'cheese' is acceptable. :)

Holy shit.  YOU are going food snob on us?  I mean, I can understand cc.  His pathetic attempts to be snobby are almost Martinusian, but that's what he does these days.  But you're a fan of gas station food, for heaven's sakes.

Cal's very select. Only eats out of the finest dumpsters.  ;)

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 02:37:20 PM
Sure it is.  Vegetable oil and food coloring.  That's food.

At best it's a condiment.

Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 02:29:44 PM

Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 11:51:43 AM
There is only ONE acceptable use for American cheese, and that is as topping for a Philly cheesesteak (though I generally prefer provolone myself).  NO OTHER use of American 'cheese' is acceptable. :)

Holy shit.  YOU are going food snob on us?  I mean, I can understand cc.  His pathetic attempts to be snobby are almost Martinusian, but that's what he does these days.  But you're a fan of gas station food, for heaven's sakes.

Just because he likes cheap junk food doesn't mean he doesn't have taste buds.

Sometimes cheap food is good. A lot of the classic gourmet dishes were developed by poor people trying to make good food out of less desirable things and make their existing food stores last longer. Ex: Charcuterie of all types, cassoulet, BBQ, etc.

Quote from: mongers on May 03, 2013, 01:28:40 PMGarbon accusing someone else of snobbery.   :hmm:

I know, it's pretty amusing. I always thought he was more self-aware than that.

Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 01:29:23 PM

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 01:19:12 PM

Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
Re: American cheese, I think one of the biggest culture shocks coming down here was the willingness to completely debase the national name like that.

I think our cuisine is generally not know for being highbrow (though we certainly have highbrow sorts).

It's not that it's not highbrow. It's that it's not actually food. There's a part of the American identity that we're solid, genuine and dependable if a bit rough around the edges. Processed cheese product (and many other ubiquitous products) is the opposite of that.

In your opinion.

Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:07:51 PM

Quote from: mongers on May 03, 2013, 01:28:40 PMGarbon accusing someone else of snobbery.   :hmm:

I know, it's pretty amusing. I always thought he was more self-aware than that.

Oh this is solely on food (or I guess consumables to include things like wine). I've never been snobby on that front. :)

Anyone who insists on calling all fizzy wine champagne can't be 100% snob.

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 12:27:00 PM
figures :rolleyes:

Remember, Knead it.

Also the MRE peanut butter makes a good ingrediant for a heat tab.  :P

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 05:56:15 PM
Anyone who insists on calling all fizzy wine champagne can't be 100% snob.

Yeah, but it's so incongruent with the sheer volume of pretension our good friend normally affects, that one can't help but be amused  :bowler:

Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 11:54:30 PM
Yeah, but it's so incongruent with the sheer volume of pretension our good friend normally affects, that one can't help but be amused  :bowler:

Oh hells yeah.

Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 11:54:30 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 05:56:15 PM
Anyone who insists on calling all fizzy wine champagne can't be 100% snob.

Yeah, but it's so incongruent with the sheer volume of pretension our good friend normally affects, that one can't help but be amused  :bowler:

Well I think I'm entirely consistent in that regard. :)

Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2013, 10:39:31 AMWell I think I'm entirely consistent in that regard. :)

Fair enough - we can count on you being miltantly downmarket and unsophisticated on the subject of of commestibles... except, perhaps, fancy cocktails?

I think the way to make sense of Grab On's thinking Yakie, is that things that are associated with places he identifies with are good, and things from other places are not good.

California and NYC are cool, therefore Napa Valley sparkling wine rocks.  America is cooler than the rest of the world, therefore American cheese is acceptable.

I like the phrase "militantly downmarket".

Quote from: Jacob on May 04, 2013, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2013, 10:39:31 AMWell I think I'm entirely consistent in that regard. :)

Fair enough - we can count on you being miltantly downmarket and unsophisticated on the subject of of commestibles... except, perhaps, fancy cocktails?

That seems to suggest that I'm prejudiced in the opposite way, that if it wasn't downmarket - I wouldn't enjoy it. My point was that I'm more open-minded in that area which probably stems from all the years where I was very selective about what I'd eat.

@Yi - I think that would be a mistake. At least as far as wine/"sparkling wine" is concerned - I consume more from South America/Italy/Spain. I don't think I "identify" with any of those places more than California.

And of course, I recognize that American cheese has nothing in common with its more illustrious cousins but that doesn't mean it can't serve a purpose.

I'm a lot like garbon in respect to food - capable of enjoying both highbrow and lowbrow and capable of telling the difference. Mine's a fairly omnivorous palate.

Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2013, 12:18:07 PM
@Yi - I think that would be a mistake. At least as far as wine/"sparkling wine" is concerned - I consume more from South America/Italy/Spain. I don't think I "identify" with any of those places more than California.

Consumption is generally a private act.  I'm talking about public utterances.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2013, 12:23:05 PM

Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2013, 12:18:07 PM
@Yi - I think that would be a mistake. At least as far as wine/"sparkling wine" is concerned - I consume more from South America/Italy/Spain. I don't think I "identify" with any of those places more than California.

Consumption is generally a private act.  I'm talking about public utterances.

I don't think that's true. A lot of consumption is in public.  Now if "public" here just means utterances on Languish maybe true as I don't think I generally source the originating countries of activities or consumables*.

*which dovetails nicely into my general use of the word champagne.

Quote from: fahdiz on May 04, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
I'm a lot like garbon in respect to food - capable of enjoying both highbrow and lowbrow and capable of telling the difference. Mine's a fairly omnivorous palate.

I eat Taco Bell.

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 04, 2013, 04:06:09 PM

I eat Taco Bell.

Therefore I shit 20 minutes later.

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 04, 2013, 04:06:09 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on May 04, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
I'm a lot like garbon in respect to food - capable of enjoying both highbrow and lowbrow and capable of telling the difference. Mine's a fairly omnivorous palate.

I eat Taco Bell.

:yuk:

Quote from: 11B4V on May 04, 2013, 04:28:24 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 04, 2013, 04:06:09 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on May 04, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
I'm a lot like garbon in respect to food - capable of enjoying both highbrow and lowbrow and capable of telling the difference. Mine's a fairly omnivorous palate.

I eat Taco Bell.

:yuk:

I get sick of burgers when I'm doing my rounds. It's different.

Plus I steal their napkins and mild sauce packets.

Are you a poor?

Quote from: The Brain on May 04, 2013, 05:01:44 PM
Are you a poor?

Free shit is free shit.

Quote from: The Brain on May 04, 2013, 05:01:44 PM
Are you a poor?

He's frugal.  :lol:

Those brown napkins may be shitty but they come in handy on the road.  :)

Free hot sauce is worth taking, mild not so much.

I had a free latte in a supermarket today. :skinflint:

Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 08:39:44 AM
So I tried it this morning. Not really that much different from a regular one minus the egg yolk. The "cheddar" tastes basically the same as the American cheese on a regular one.  I guess then with less calories and cholesterol they are a fine substitution.

Oddly, the refer to them as Delights. I was confused when they called my order as that wasn't what I thought I'd ordered. :D

I used my $1 Facebook coupon to get one for breakfast for this morning.  Not bad, but for a difference of 50 calories I'd still opt for the classic version.  It's probably the only thing on the McDonald's menu that I really like.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2013, 11:44:21 AM
I think the way to make sense of Grab On's thinking Yakie, is that things that are associated with places he identifies with are good, and things from other places are not good.

California and NYC are cool, therefore Napa Valley sparkling wine rocks.  America is cooler than the rest of the world, therefore American cheese is acceptable.

So he's kind of like Jos is to coal, but on a grander scale?

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 04, 2013, 05:06:38 PM
Those brown napkins may be shitty but they come in handy on the road.  :)

Yep, like when you're driving around and you hear one of the kids sneeze in the back seat.

Gross

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 10, 2013, 02:25:16 PM
Gross

We don't all have nannies wipe our kids' noses  <_<

Just let a large metal shelf shatter one of your legs, and you can then afford a nanny.

Deal.

Hold still.

With CdM's luck it'll probably be the shelf holding his own unopened wargames that falls on him.  Those shelves were never meant to hold that many unpunched counters, so the lawsuit against the manufacturer would never succeed.

Crushed by ASL rule books. Bad way to go.

That's why all the ASL stuff is on the lowest shelf.