Quote'Deplorable': U.S. defense chief condemns urinating Marines video
An Internet video showing what appear to be U.S. forces in Afghanistan urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters will not affect efforts to broker peace talks, a spokesman for the Afghan Taliban said Thursday.
The video, posted on YouTube and other websites, shows four men in camouflage Marine combat uniforms urinating on three corpses. One of them jokes: "Have a nice day, buddy." Another makes a lewd joke.
"This is not a political process, so the video will not harm our talks and prisoner exchange because they are at the preliminary stage," spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid told Reuters.
The footage, which the U.S. military said appeared to be authentic but had not been officially verified, could complicate efforts to promote reconciliation as foreign troops gradually withdraw.
The Obama administration, seeing a glimmer of hope in its effort to broker talks, is launching a fresh round of shuttle diplomacy with an immediate goal of sealing agreement for Taliban insurgents to open a political office in the Gulf state of Qatar.
Marc Grossman, Obama's special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, begins a diplomatic blitz this weekend that includes talks with Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Kabul and top officials in Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.
'Very, very bad impact'
The video will not help his efforts to build confidence among the warring parties.
"Such action will leave a very, very bad impact on peace efforts," said Arsala Rahmani, the top negotiator from Karzai's High Peace Council.
"Looking at such action, the Taliban can easily recruit young people and tell them that their country has been attacked by Christians and Jews and they must defend it," he said in the first comments from a high-ranking Afghan.
The New York Times reported that Grossman's efforts have been going on for the past year and involved a small team of American officials who secretly met multiple times with a shadowy representative of Afghanistan's Taliban leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, in the hope of starting peace talks.
It reported the administration's best chance for ending the war in Afghanistan had reached "a critical juncture."
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told the newspaper on Wednesday there appeared to be support, for the first time, for a political resolution that included Taliban leaders who ruthlessly ruled the country from 1996 until the American invasion after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
"The reality is we never have the luxury of negotiating for peace with our friends," it quoted Mrs. Clinton as saying. "If you're sitting across the table discussing a peaceful resolution to a conflict, you are sitting across from people who you by definition don't agree with and who you may previously have been across a battlefield from."
The U.S. Marine Corps has said it would investigate the Internet video of abuse.
Marines to be 'held accountable'
The NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan described the acts depicted in the video as "highly reprehensible" and "disgusting".
"The behavior depicted in this video is reprehensible and is not in keeping with the values of U.S. Armed Forces," ISAF spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Jimmie Cummings said.
A U.S. official said "it should be pretty easy" to identify the Marines in the video and those involved "will be held accountable for their actions."
The Marines, though not identified by name, were confirmed to be a sniper team out of Camp Lejeune, N.C., U.S. military officials told NBC News. They were deployed to southern Afghanistan from early 2011 until August of 2011.
In a formal statment, a Marine Corps official said: "The actions portrayed are not consistent with our core values and are not indicative of the character of the Marines in our Corps."
At first, the Marines could not determine whether the incident took place in Iraq or Afghanistan, but it was later determned to be Afghanistan.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim civil rights group in the United States, condemned the alleged desecration of corpses in a letter to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and obtained by Reuters.
"Any guilty parties must be punished to the full extent allowed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice and by relevant American laws," the letter said.
QuoteUpdated at 6:31 a.m. ET:
The NATO-led International Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan comes close to acknowledging that it thinks the video is real and promises a criminal investigation.
"ISAF strongly condemns the actions depicted in the video, which appear to have been conducted by a small group of U.S. individuals, who apparently are no longer serving in Afghanistan," the coaltion says in a statement on Thursday. "This behavior dishonors the sacrifices and core values of every service member representing the fifty nations of the coalition."
"Therefore, a United States Criminal Investigatory agency has launched an investigation. It will be thorough and any individuals with confirmed involvement will be held fully accountable," ISAF's statement adds.
QuoteUpdated at 6:58 a.m. ET:
President Hamid Karzai's government "strongly condemned" the video and called the actions by American soldiers "insulting" and "insane."
"The Islamic republic of Afghanistan is demanding the investigation and punishment for the solders from the U.S. government regarding this film as soon as possible," the presidential palace says in a statement released Thursday.
QuoteUpdated at 10:40 a.m. ET:
U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has condemned a video that apparently shows U.S. Marines urinating on the corpses of Afghan men, promising to punish those involved.
"I have seen the footage, and I find the behavior depicted in it utterly deplorable," Panetta says in a statement, adding that he had ordered the Marine Corps and the commander of U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan to investigate the incident.
"Those found to have engaged in such conduct will be held accountable to the fullest extent," he says.
The video that surfaced a day earlier appeared to show American forces urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters could aggravate anti-American sentiment in Afghanistan as the Obama administration hopes to end a decade-long war.
Similar affront to Fallujah in 2004.
Nonsense.
Maybe they were just trying to keep them warm? :unsure:
We look down on desecrating the dead in the west :P
Quote from: DGuller on January 12, 2012, 06:15:58 PM
Maybe they were just trying to keep them warm? :unsure:
Jellyfish. they were stung by jellyfish... after they were shot... by land jellyfish.
Quote from: HVC on January 12, 2012, 06:43:33 PM
Jellyfish. they were stung by jellyfish... after they were shot... by land jellyfish.
Better than the excuse I would've gave, which would've been athlete's foot.
Quote from: DGuller on January 12, 2012, 06:15:58 PM
Maybe they were just trying to keep them warm? :unsure:
Or cure their athlete's foot.
Fuck. A quarter second behind Thumper.
Taliban... toilet... they both start with 'T'. :)
Quote from: Caliga on January 12, 2012, 07:20:38 PM
Taliban... toilet... they both start with 'T'. :)
:(
Quote from: Tonitrus on January 12, 2012, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 12, 2012, 07:20:38 PM
Taliban... toilet... they both start with 'T'. :)
:(
I'll pee on your leg and tell you it's raining. :hug:
Nothing, fuck the taliban
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
if crazy Islamists were to do it on dead Marines, you'd all be up in arms about their savegery.
Quote from: viper37 on January 13, 2012, 01:00:04 AM
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
if crazy Islamists were to do it on dead Marines, you'd all be up in arms about their savegery.
Not really. Crazy islamist do things pretty routinely that makes pissing on already dead people pretty uninteresting. Like suicide bombers and such.
Or cutting people's heads off and putting the videos on the internet.
From the responses given, only HVC gets it. It has nothing to do with pissing off the Taliban or anyone else. It has everything to do with our self-image and maintaining a certain decorum we have created in the West around killing that allows us to call ourselves civilized and better than the "savages". It's for the same reason we give death row criminals the last meal and do not have public executions - this is a part of our "civilized" ways, there to convince us we are not like our enemies.
You may find it silly or hypocritical, but being blind to it or disregarding it as non-existent is just moronic.
It will be blown out of proportion but that does not make the act acceptable. They are undermining the war effort with this sort of bs, and filming it in this age of instant communications was a stupid error. They will be in for an unpleasant time when they go to their interviews with their CO.
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
Not really. The main damage will be at home. Liberal democracies are capable of waging foreign wars if the majority of the populace is convinced the cause is just and "our boys" are the "good guys", who play by the rules and adhere to some sort of chivalric-like code of conduct. Incidents/videos like this undermine this conviction.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
It will be blown out of proportion but that does not make the act acceptable. They are undermining the war effort with this sort of bs, and filming it in this age of instant communications was a stupid error. They will be for an unpleasant time when they go to their interviews with their CO.
Completely agree. It's just the sheer stupidity of not understanding the consequences of one's actions that's astounding here.
Quote from: viper37 on January 13, 2012, 01:00:04 AM
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
if crazy Islamists were to do it on dead Marines, you'd all be up in arms about their savegery.
They've done a lot worse. Not sure it would faze me much.
Ironic that pissing on Taliban would at the same time be pissing off Taliban.
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
Ironic that pissing on Talibans would at the same time be pissing off Talibans.
Pissing is not a precise art.
It's undignified.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
It will be blown out of proportion but that does not make the act acceptable. They are undermining the war effort with this sort of bs, and filming it in this age of instant communications was a stupid error. They will be for an unpleasant time when they go to their interviews with their CO.
Completely agree. It's just the sheer stupidity of not understanding the consequences of one's actions that's astounding here.
Most of us aren't thinking about the geopolitical consequences of every act we do.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 03:59:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
It will be blown out of proportion but that does not make the act acceptable. They are undermining the war effort with this sort of bs, and filming it in this age of instant communications was a stupid error. They will be for an unpleasant time when they go to their interviews with their CO.
Completely agree. It's just the sheer stupidity of not understanding the consequences of one's actions that's astounding here.
Most of us aren't thinking about the geopolitical consequences of every act we do.
Employees should be expected not to do things that make their employer look bad, while on duty. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 04:06:24 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 03:59:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
It will be blown out of proportion but that does not make the act acceptable. They are undermining the war effort with this sort of bs, and filming it in this age of instant communications was a stupid error. They will be for an unpleasant time when they go to their interviews with their CO.
Completely agree. It's just the sheer stupidity of not understanding the consequences of one's actions that's astounding here.
Most of us aren't thinking about the geopolitical consequences of every act we do.
Employees should be expected not to do things that make their employer look bad, while on duty. Wouldn't you agree?
*cough*
:lol:
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2012, 04:09:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 04:06:24 AM
Employees should be expected not to do things that make their employer look bad, while on duty. Wouldn't you agree?
*cough*
:XD:
It's probably against the rules.
We live in an age of instant communications, omnipresent cameras and moral cowardice, so this sort of thing will be frowned upon.
Meh. Show me a US Marine that isn't mean enough to piss on the corpse of an enemy he just killed & I'll show you a US Marine that needs to get drummed out. They're trained killers, not the Girl Scouts...
It seems bizarre to expect people killing each other to act with decorum and respect the whole time. I know these guys are professionals and all but they are not robots.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 08:55:54 AM
It seems bizarre to expect people killing each other to act with decorum and respect the whole time. I know these guys are professionals and all but they are not robots.
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 08:53:39 AM
Meh. Show me a US Marine that isn't mean enough to piss on the corpse of an enemy he just killed & I'll show you a US Marine that needs to get drummed out. They're trained killers, not the Girl Scouts...
See, but this is where the moral cowardice comes in. The public doesn't want to think about the consequences of their actions and policies. In their world, the only good soldier is like the ones on the GI Joe cartoon, or like the ones in the old WWII movies. It's the same well from which 'supporting the troops' flowed.
:yes:
I, for one, sleep better at night knowing that Col. Nathan Jessup is up on that wall, and prefer to just say "Thank you" to quibbling about some bullshit perceived dichotomy of how it's OK to put 5.56mm holes in a human being, but voiding one's bladder on their corpse after the fact in a cathartic flow is a No-No. Hell, stuff like this is going to save us millions of $$$ in PTSD therapy bills alone...
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:48:29 AM
From the responses given, only HVC gets it.
Oh, we get. We just don't fucking care.
Kinda like how you know defending pedophiles is wrong, but you do it anyway.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:54:28 AM
Completely agree. It's just the sheer stupidity of not understanding the consequences of one's actions that's astounding here.
Um they are infantry grunts not political scientists for fucksake. Are you seriously astounded people act like this in a war zone? You must be pretty easy to astound.
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 08:53:39 AM
Meh. Show me a US Marine that isn't mean enough to piss on the corpse of an enemy he just killed & I'll show you a US Marine that needs to get drummed out. They're trained killers, not the Girl Scouts...
No kidding.
You're in a 1 hour, 45-minute firefight with people actively trying to kill you and your friends.
You win.
Guess what: you're going to be jacked up on adrenaline to an ungodly degree. You're going to want to talk some smack.
Combat has different rules. You can't complain to HR.
Now, can you comport yourself properly as a soldier? Yes--at least you should on your own--and it also falls on the NCOs and junior officers to make sure you do. But to not expect this sort of thing happening from time to time is unrealistic.
Urinating on some dead guys that just tried killing them. BFD. Wake me up when these Marines mow down a field full of POWs, like the Krauts, or burn down a church full of innocent civilians, like the Brits.
I'm not peeing with people watching.
All joking aside, this is unacceptable and the golden shower squad will have to do some hard time.
I wonder what public opinion would be on this incident? It'd be an interesting poll question for Gallup, that's for sure. Even better if they added some what-ifs: pooping on the enemy, teabagging him, etc.
Anyway, I guess we should all be glad there wasn't menstrual blood involved-- that one really seems to set them off.
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 08:53:39 AM
Meh. Show me a US Marine that isn't mean enough to piss on the corpse of an enemy he just killed & I'll show you a US Marine that needs to get drummed out. They're trained killers, not the Girl Scouts...
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
Even some teenage punks know better than to shoot video of their mischief.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 08:53:39 AM
Meh. Show me a US Marine that isn't mean enough to piss on the corpse of an enemy he just killed & I'll show you a US Marine that needs to get drummed out. They're trained killers, not the Girl Scouts...
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
You would probably get punched in the face for that if you said that to them in person. :lmfao:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 09:45:41 AM
All joking aside, this is unacceptable and the golden shower squad will have to do some hard time.
Doubt it.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
Doubt it.
What do you figure will be the final result?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
Doubt it.
What do you figure will be the final result?
Show trial and drumed out unfortunately. I would put a $ donation to Languish on it.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
Isn't that sort of like saying they are trained as butchers, not as meat cutters?
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:22:42 AM
Show trial and drumed out unfortunately. I would put a $ donation to Languish on it.
And if they went by the book?
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:22:42 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
Doubt it.
What do you figure will be the final result?
Show trial and drumed out unfortunately. I would put a $ donation to Languish on it.
A dishonourable discharge...........in more ways than one :lol:
That would be a pity, but posting that stuff on the internet.........maybe they wanted a fast track out of the corps?
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:48:29 AM
From the responses given, only HVC gets it. It has nothing to do with pissing off the Taliban or anyone else. It has everything to do with our self-image and maintaining a certain decorum we have created in the West around killing that allows us to call ourselves civilized and better than the "savages". It's for the same reason we give death row criminals the last meal and do not have public executions - this is a part of our "civilized" ways, there to convince us we are not like our enemies.
You may find it silly or hypocritical, but being blind to it or disregarding it as non-existent is just moronic.
:hmm:
I thought you were in Poland.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
Isn't that sort of like saying they are trained as butchers, not as meat cutters?
Nope. It's the terms he is using.
Soldier = Army
Marines=Marines
I fuck with some of the knotheads at work and call them Naval Infantry. Also that thay are not a real branch of the military, so they answer to the Navy. There is no such thing as the Department of the Marine Corps. :D
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:22:42 AM
Show trial and drumed out unfortunately. I would put a $ donation to Languish on it.
And if they went by the book?
Lets make a bet.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:35:15 AM
Lets make a bet.
You're misunderstanding. I'm deferring to your knowledge. I was asking what you think the punishment would be if they followed the book.
I'd be happy to make a bet about something else though.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
Nope. It's the terms he is using.
Soldier = Army
Marines=Marines
I fuck with some of the knotheads at work and call them Naval Infantry. Also that thay are not a real branch of the military, so they answer to the Navy. There is no such thing as the Department of the Marine Corps. :D
:lol:
Marines are so nuts about this crap. What exactly do they think the term Marines means? :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 10:37:15 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:35:15 AM
Lets make a bet.
You're misunderstanding. I'm deferring to your knowledge. I was asking what you think the punishment would be if they followed the book.
I'd be happy to make a bet about something else though.
Well, we see at least; conduct unbecoming, disobeying a lawful order, indecent exposure...any one got anything else. I dont feel like browsing the UCMJ and Law of Land Warfare @ 0730 in the morning. :D
But why bother they wont do anytime in the big house as a result.
They'll all cop to it and get a Dishonorable Discharge out of it. No jail time, just loss of career and benefits.
When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
Isn't that sort of like saying they are trained as butchers, not as meat cutters?
Nope. It's the terms he is using.
Soldier = Army
Marines=Marines
I fuck with some of the knotheads at work and call them Naval Infantry. Also that thay are not a real branch of the military, so they answer to the Navy. There is no such thing as the Department of the Marine Corps. :D
My
Ass
Rides
In
Navy
Equipment
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 13, 2012, 11:55:24 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
Isn't that sort of like saying they are trained as butchers, not as meat cutters?
Nope. It's the terms he is using.
Soldier = Army
Marines=Marines
I fuck with some of the knotheads at work and call them Naval Infantry. Also that thay are not a real branch of the military, so they answer to the Navy. There is no such thing as the Department of the Marine Corps. :D
My
Ass
Rides
In
Navy
Equipment
Hehe, yea :D
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 13, 2012, 11:55:24 AM
My
Ass
Rides
In
Navy
Equipment
That's an oldie but a goodie.
I have an ex-Marine in my shop; when I sent out directives, I send out two versions; the official one, and the "Marine" one, which specifically requires a war face.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2012, 09:29:48 AM
or burn down a church full of innocent civilians, like the Brits.
Isn't that what air forces are for these days?
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
They are trained as soldiers, not as killers.
Isn't that sort of like saying they are trained as butchers, not as meat cutters?
Not really. In fact, I would say that our entire cultural treatment of warfare is based on recognizing this distinction.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:44:04 PM
Not really. In fact, I would say that our entire cultural treatment of warfare is based on recognizing this distinction.
Well certainly a soldier has a certain code of conduct and there are certain standards of warfare but in the end it is about fighting and winning battles and wars. There are many elements to doing that but infantry grunts are in the killing the enemy part of that.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 12:48:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:44:04 PM
Not really. In fact, I would say that our entire cultural treatment of warfare is based on recognizing this distinction.
Well certainly a soldier has a certain code of conduct and there are certain standards of warfare but in the end it is about fighting and winning battles and wars. There are many elements to doing that but infantry grunts are in the killing the enemy part of that.
Meh, I dislike the military so I don't really care if they are considered stupid killers in the end. I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 12:48:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:44:04 PM
Not really. In fact, I would say that our entire cultural treatment of warfare is based on recognizing this distinction.
Well certainly a soldier has a certain code of conduct and there are certain standards of warfare but in the end it is about fighting and winning battles and wars. There are many elements to doing that but infantry grunts are in the killing the enemy part of that.
Meh, I dislike the military so I don't really care if they are considered stupid killers in the end. I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
Why not?
They are heroes who put their life on the line for our country. They deserve our respect and admiration. But as part of training them to be soldiers they may not be the kind of person you'd want your daughter going out with.
I have the same mixed feelings about hockey players.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
Meh, I dislike the military so I don't really care if they are considered stupid killers in the end. I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
I am saying it is a human reaction to combat so not too terribly shocking. They are praised for basically giving up their humanity and taking on a horrible burden so I do not have to. So volunteering to become the sort of person who would kill some dudes and then piss on them is part of what makes them heroes. I mean to the extent they are.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 12:48:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:44:04 PM
Not really. In fact, I would say that our entire cultural treatment of warfare is based on recognizing this distinction.
Well certainly a soldier has a certain code of conduct and there are certain standards of warfare but in the end it is about fighting and winning battles and wars. There are many elements to doing that but infantry grunts are in the killing the enemy part of that.
Meh, I dislike the military so I don't really care if they are considered stupid killers in the end. I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
War isn't pretty, and at the end of the day, you're killing people. Whether you say "sorry about that, mate" or "die, motherfucker" when you do the killing, that basic fact is the same. While of course I would like the killers on our side to be perfectly honorable, and I think that honor should be strictly enforced, I also don't know what war does to the psyche of people. Thankfully, in this country, I have the choice of not knowing it personally, and it's the choice I happily made.
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
They are heroes who put their life on the line for our country.
[me] Ok. Yeah.
They deserve our respect and admiration.
[me] In as much as ordinary people like nurses, social workers, polciemen, firefighters, do, yeah.
But once they piss on other people, dead or alive, that bit about respect and admiration? Nah, it pretty much flies out the window for me and if they step on a land mine on their way back to base--I can't say I'd lose any sleep.
Quote from: Josephus on January 13, 2012, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
They are heroes who put their life on the line for our country.
[me] Ok. Yeah.
They deserve our respect and admiration.
[me] In as much as ordinary people like nurses, social workers, polciemen, firefighters, do, yeah.
But once they piss on other people, dead or alive, that bit about respect and admiration? Nah, it pretty much flies out the window for me and if they step on a land mine on their way back to base--I can't say I'd lose any sleep.
I was speaking of soldiers in general. I certainly wouldn't want these fellows to step on a land mine (Jos - really?), but I imagine they will be drummed out and that seems appropriate.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 01:01:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
Meh, I dislike the military so I don't really care if they are considered stupid killers in the end. I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
I am saying it is a human reaction to combat so not too terribly shocking. They are praised for basically giving up their humanity and taking on a horrible burden so I do not have to. So volunteering to become the sort of person who would kill some dudes and then piss on them is part of what makes them heroes. I mean to the extent they are.
I disagree. There are thousands, upon thousands, of other soldiers, presently, and in history, who didn't feel the need to piss on other soldeirs. Those are heroes, yeah. These ones are just fucked up.
Quote from: Josephus on January 13, 2012, 01:12:04 PM
I disagree. There are thousands, upon thousands, of other soldiers, presently, and in history, who didn't feel the need to piss on other soldeirs. Those are heroes, yeah. These ones are just fucked up.
Well when you are brutalized you do fucked up things. Many did less fucked up things, and many did much more fucked up stuff.
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
Why not?
They are heroes who put their life on the line for our country. They deserve our respect and admiration. But as part of training them to be soldiers they may not be the kind of person you'd want your daughter going out with.
I have the same mixed feelings about hockey players.
A soldier isn't a hero per se (although he may do heroic things). He's not joining up from a feeling of sacrifice but because he wants to (like killing people, thinks it'll make a man of him, can't think of anything esle to do, interested in technical training, etc). They deserve your respect and admiration when they do something that deserves your respect and admiration. Joining up isn't one of them
Quote from: Gups on January 13, 2012, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
Why not?
They are heroes who put their life on the line for our country. They deserve our respect and admiration. But as part of training them to be soldiers they may not be the kind of person you'd want your daughter going out with.
I have the same mixed feelings about hockey players.
A soldier isn't a hero per se (although he may do heroic things). He's not joining up from a feeling of sacrifice but because he wants to (like killing people, thinks it'll make a man of him, can't think of anything esle to do, interested in technical training, etc). They deserve your respect and admiration when they do something that deserves your respect and admiration. Joining up isn't one of them
Disagree. By the mere act of enlisting you are putting your life at risk, because you're accepting the risk you might be deployed to a war zone. The fact you may wind up being deployed to Wainright, Alberta for the duration of your enlistment doesn't cheapen that risk. And so they can be called heroes as far as I'm concerned.
Agree with Gups about heroes.
Disagree with Gups about motives for signing up.
Agree with Beeb about respect for people who are risking their lives in your service.
Quote from: Gups on January 13, 2012, 01:28:30 PM
A soldier isn't a hero per se (although he may do heroic things). He's not joining up from a feeling of sacrifice but because he wants to (like killing people, thinks it'll make a man of him, can't think of anything esle to do, interested in technical training, etc). They deserve your respect and admiration when they do something that deserves your respect and admiration. Joining up isn't one of them
I guess I mostly just give them my gratitude. So long as we have recruitment I will never have to undergo the ordeal of military service. My father's generation was not so lucky.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 01:15:16 PMWell when you are brutalized you do fucked up things. Many did less fucked up things, and many did much more fucked up stuff.
Being brutalized is no excuse, military is all about discipline. This case seems to be undignified conduct and should be treated as such.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 01:38:08 PM
Agree with Gups about heroes.
Disagree with Gups about motives for signing up.
Agree with Beeb about respect for people who are risking their lives in your service.
What was your motive for signing up?
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 01:45:39 PM
Being brutalized is no excuse, military is all about discipline. This case seems to be undignified conduct and should be treated as such.
I am sure it will not be considered such at their court-martial ;)
I am just saying I can certainly see how this sort of thing happens. I have heard all sorts of things our soldiers did during WWII that ranged from atrocities to the undignified. Of course back then it was not recorded and put on the internet so it was really rare anybody actually got called to account for them.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 01:47:59 PM
What was your motive for signing up?
I don't get it Raz.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 01:48:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 01:47:59 PM
What was your motive for signing up?
I don't get it Raz.
You disagreed with Gups possible motives for signing up. I wondered what yours was. Mine was "to be useful". They didn't want me around when they found out I was crazy. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 01:50:48 PM
You disagreed with Gups possible motives for signing up. I wondered what yours was. Mine was "to be useful". They didn't want me around when they found out I was crazy. :(
Gups didn't sign up either Raz. :mellow:
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
I wouldnt want to waste the money required to have expert witnesses explain to a civilian judiciary what it is like to be a soldier.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
You seem to be implying that the marines involved are better off being tried by a court martial than in a civilian criminal court. Well, you might be right if we're talking about an Afghan civilian court, but I suspect that a court martial can hand down a far harsher penalty than a civilian criminal court could in the US. In a civilian court, all they could be charged with AFAIK in most jurisdictions would be desecrating a corpse, which would probably just draw a relatively small fine (though I'm not sure about that). I'm sure that a court martial could level some far more serious charges.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:24:06 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
I wouldnt want to waste the money required to have expert witnesses explain to a civilian judiciary what it is like to be a soldier.
That would be a price I am willing to pay.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PMMeh, I dislike the military so I don't really care if they are considered stupid killers in the end. I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
I remember during my time in service we were very concerned about what raging faggot Pollack lawyers thought about us.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 13, 2012, 02:08:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 01:50:48 PM
You disagreed with Gups possible motives for signing up. I wondered what yours was. Mine was "to be useful". They didn't want me around when they found out I was crazy. :(
Gups didn't sign up either Raz. :mellow:
Yes, but I wasn't questioning Gups opinion, as his statement seemed quite reasonable. Hell, I don't know what Gups does or did. I just found out today he's from Cornwall. I thought he was from India or Pakistan or something.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Huh? Surely the laws regarding civilian conduct and the rules for soldierly conduct are not the same. I mean it is not a crime to disobey orders for the civvies.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Huh? Surely the laws regarding civilian conduct and the rules for soldierly conduct are not the same. I mean it is not a crime to disobey orders for the civvies.
Hence my point that the Marines involved would be much better off being tried in a Western civilian court than by a court martial, even if Zanza doesn't realize it.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Huh? Surely the laws regarding civilian conduct and the rules for soldierly conduct are not the same. I mean it is not a crime to disobey orders for the civvies.
As far as I am aware, other professions aren't exclusively judged by their peers, but rather by the general system of courts. May be different in common law countries.
Quote from: dps on January 13, 2012, 02:48:04 PMHence my point that the Marines involved would be much better off being tried in a Western civilian court than by a court martial, even if Zanza doesn't realize it.
Why? The law would still be the same.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
It will be blown out of proportion but that does not make the act acceptable. They are undermining the war effort with this sort of bs, and filming it in this age of instant communications was a stupid error. They will be for an unpleasant time when they go to their interviews with their CO.
Completely agree. It's just the sheer stupidity of not understanding the consequences of one's actions that's astounding here.
Gotta agree with Marty, no matter how much it pains me to do so.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:49:58 PM
other professions aren't exclusively judged by their peers, but rather by the general system of courts. May be different in common law countries.
Other professions usually do not lock people up simply for disobeying orders. Or do they? I know you Germans have this hardcore reputation.
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 02:57:42 PM
Gotta agree with Marty, no matter how much it pains me to do so.
I can understand how it is stupid I was just confused why it was astounding. You see the psychological struggles Siege goes through.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:49:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Huh? Surely the laws regarding civilian conduct and the rules for soldierly conduct are not the same. I mean it is not a crime to disobey orders for the civvies.
As far as I am aware, other professions aren't exclusively judged by their peers, but rather by the general system of courts. May be different in common law countries.
The legal profession is self-governing. :cool:
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 01:15:16 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 13, 2012, 01:12:04 PM
I disagree. There are thousands, upon thousands, of other soldiers, presently, and in history, who didn't feel the need to piss on other soldeirs. Those are heroes, yeah. These ones are just fucked up.
Well when you are brutalized you do fucked up things. Many did less fucked up things, and many did much more fucked up stuff.
I think that is largely true, but there is another aspect to this beyond how it looks.
What worries me when I see things like this is that it is indicative of a lack of discipline. Now, it may not be significant, just a one off thing where some guys were goofing around letting off steam in what seems a rather bizarre and disrespectful manner to civilians (on the other hand, killing people is pretty fucking bizarre too to civilians, so I get that they live in an environment where the macabre becomes routine). ON the other hand, the US military prides itself on being a professional, volunteer force with pretty serious standards of professionalism and behavior.
Pissing on dead Taliban is not as bad a break down in discipline as My Lai. Nor is it as bad a breakdown as murdering some girl and then making it look like the Taliban did it, or as bad as shooting your ex-NFL star buddy, nor is it as bad even as stacking naked POWs in pyramids. But all those things are on the same path that comes from lack of discipline, if at different points on the path, so it is concerning when you hear about it, because I am betting there is other shit going on that you don't hear about.
So to me, crap like this is concerning, even if I ignore all the hand wringing and wailing from those who just plain hate the military and are looking for something to be offended by.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 02:57:42 PM
Gotta agree with Marty, no matter how much it pains me to do so.
I can understand how it is stupid I was just confused why it was astounding. You see the psychological struggles Siege goes through.
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:01:22 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:49:58 PM
other professions aren't exclusively judged by their peers, but rather by the general system of courts. May be different in common law countries.
Other professions usually do not lock people up simply for disobeying orders. Or do they? I know you Germans have this hardcore reputation.
I have no idea about the US legal system, but I would be surprised if there aren't types of professional malpractice for other professions that can get you locked up.
I chose to do military service. No way in hell I was a hero.
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2012, 03:10:40 PM
I chose to do military service. No way in hell I was a hero.
I was speaking of countries whose militaries actually, you know, fight people once in a while.
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2012, 03:10:40 PM
I chose to do military service. No way in hell I was a hero.
I was speaking of countries whose militaries actually, you know, fight people once in a while.
Dodge: fail.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 03:07:28 PM
I have no idea about the US legal system, but I would be surprised if there aren't types of professional malpractice for other professions that can get you locked up.
I think here is a major difference. In our system malpractice is generally handled by lawsuit, not a criminal trial.
But really if a German soldier does something in Afghanistan he gets sent back to Germany to be tried in a civilian court?
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2012, 03:10:40 PM
I chose to do military service. No way in hell I was a hero.
Only a true hero denies being a hero. The Brain, you raise me up.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2012, 03:10:40 PM
I chose to do military service. No way in hell I was a hero.
Only a true hero denies being a hero. The Brain, you raise me up.
:blush:
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
But really if a German soldier does something in Afghanistan he gets sent back to Germany to be tried in a civilian court?
That might be, but it would be a unique-to-Germany thing. Remember, Germany isn't an example for anybody to follow on anything. They're a special case because their system of government was set up, by us, to prevent them from trying to conquer the world again. A real country could never survive and prosper under a German system.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:24:06 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
I wouldnt want to waste the money required to have expert witnesses explain to a civilian judiciary what it is like to be a soldier.
It's irrelevent though. Soldiers have rules. They breaks the rules, they face the punishment. There's not need for expert witnesses to explain what it's like to be in the army. The rules for conduct is made for soldiers.
Otherwise the case goes something like this:
Judge: "Soldier. You are here because you peed on the dead enemy. Which goes against the rules of conduct, as well as everything we stand for. What's your excuse?"
Soldier. "War. what is it good for? Absolutely nothing."
Judge: "Do we have a cooroborating witness?"
Witness: "Yes. I was in the first Gulf War. War is bad. I know someone who almost died."
Judge: "Fuck? REally? Release the soldier at once. Case dismissed. And next time we make rules about war conduct we should take into account that war is hell."
The thing is that rules don't really matter anymore, especially rules that the breaking of which doesn't hurt anyone.
We're all victims in this wacky world of ours.
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 13, 2012, 01:00:04 AM
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
if crazy Islamists were to do it on dead Marines, you'd all be up in arms about their savegery.
Not really. Crazy islamist do things pretty routinely that makes pissing on already dead people pretty uninteresting. Like suicide bombers and such.
it's not about the killing here, it's about the non respect to the dead. Like dragging a body to the streets (Somalia) or hanging them from a bridge (Afghanistan). These were seen as pretty horrific from the American point of view, more than the killing in itself.
Quote from: viper37 on January 13, 2012, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 13, 2012, 01:00:04 AM
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Man, if crazy Islamists see this video they might not like us.
if crazy Islamists were to do it on dead Marines, you'd all be up in arms about their savegery.
Not really. Crazy islamist do things pretty routinely that makes pissing on already dead people pretty uninteresting. Like suicide bombers and such.
it's not about the killing here, it's about the non respect to the dead. Like dragging a body to the streets (Somalia) or hanging them from a bridge (Afghanistan). These were seen as pretty horrific from the American point of view, more than the killing in itself.
Yeah, but I was not up in arms about either of those things.
No reason to get upset over hearing about people doing exactly what you expect them to do...
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 02:57:42 PM
Gotta agree with Marty, no matter how much it pains me to do so.
I can understand how it is stupid I was just confused why it was astounding. You see the psychological struggles Siege goes through.
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
It's not, but it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Too many loop holes in the US civilian system. Court Martial will do just fine for these lads. They will nail'em in a CM.
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 02:40:47 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
Huh? Surely the laws regarding civilian conduct and the rules for soldierly conduct are not the same. I mean it is not a crime to disobey orders for the civvies.
Agree with Valmy. Nor is Adultry as defined by the UCMJ. But thses guys will be slow roasted at a CM instead of a Civilian court circus
What would they be charged with under UCMJ? I'm drawing a blank, but I'm guessing there's something vague they'll be charged with.
Quote from: derspiess on January 13, 2012, 03:58:32 PM
What would they be charged with under UCMJ? I'm drawing a blank, but I'm guessing there's something vague they'll be charged with.
Off the top o the head.
Conduct Unbecoming
Disobeying a lawful order
Indecent exposure
Can anyone else add some more??
Quote from: derspiess on January 13, 2012, 03:58:32 PM
What would they be charged with under UCMJ? I'm drawing a blank, but I'm guessing there's something vague they'll be charged with.
Well in a civilian court it'd be indecent interference with human remains.
QuoteArticle 92—Failure to obey order or regulation
Maximum punishment.
(1) Violation or failure to obey lawful general order or regulation. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(2) Violation of failure to obey other lawful order. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
Note: For (1) and (2), above, the punishment set forth does not apply in the following cases: if in the absence of the order or regulation which was violated or not obeyed the accused would on the same facts be subject to conviction for another specific offense for which a lesser punishment is prescribed; or if the violation or failure to obey is a breach of restraint imposed as a result of an order. In these instances, the maximum punishment is that specifically prescribed else wherefor that particular offense.
(3) Dereliction in the performance of duties.
(A) Through neglect or culpable inefficiency. Forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months and confinement for 3 months.
(B) Willful. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
But bottomline is they embarrassed Uncle Sam publically and the Military will make them pay.
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 04:03:42 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 13, 2012, 03:58:32 PM
What would they be charged with under UCMJ? I'm drawing a blank, but I'm guessing there's something vague they'll be charged with.
Well in a civilian court it'd be indecent interference with human remains.
What would the penalty for that be in a Canadian court?
As I suggested, if a civilian here were to piss on a dead body on the side of the road, they'd probably just end up with a small fine levied against them in a civilian court. Same for a member of the armed services if they were tried in a civilian court. But in a court martial, I figure that these guys are going to end up doing some significant time in a military prison. Zanza, for some reason, seems to think otherwise--that they'd be dealt with harshly by a civilian court but that a military court will let them off easy.
QuoteZanza, for some reason, seems to think otherwise--that they'd be dealt with harshly by a civilian court but that a military court will let them off easy.
He couldnt be more wrong. If I had a chioce to pick the US civilian system or CM. I'd take the civilian courts any day.
Quote from: dps on January 13, 2012, 04:11:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 04:03:42 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 13, 2012, 03:58:32 PM
What would they be charged with under UCMJ? I'm drawing a blank, but I'm guessing there's something vague they'll be charged with.
Well in a civilian court it'd be indecent interference with human remains.
What would the penalty for that be in a Canadian court?
As I suggested, if a civilian here were to piss on a dead body on the side of the road, they'd probably just end up with a small fine levied against them in a civilian court. Same for a member of the armed services if they were tried in a civilian court. But in a court martial, I figure that these guys are going to end up doing some significant time in a military prison. Zanza, for some reason, seems to think otherwise--that they'd be dealt with harshly by a civilian court but that a military court will let them off easy.
That is going to very much depend on the individual facts. Pissing on a dead body that you happen to find at the side of the road might indeed get you a fine. But of course this is a pretty obscure section, and the only times I can even really recall it being laid is when someone is taking 'liberties' with a corpse. :x
He is coming from German history here. His reference to a 'state within a state' is what people used to call the German military during the Kaiserreich and Weimar Republics. Though I wouldn't want to stand before a Prussian-style military tribunal either.
If this happened sometime before August 2011, why did it take so long for it to be "leaked" to the MSM? :tinfoil:
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 13, 2012, 04:27:46 PM
If this happened sometime before August 2011, why did it take so long for it to be "leaked" to the MSM? :tinfoil:
ex-wife maybe??? :lmfao:
I have no doubt that if this vid had not gone viral and an NCO or Officer had seen this, they would have been told to knock it off or they would have joined them. It's only a big deal because it went public.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
I have no doubt that if this vid had not gone viral and an NCO or Officer had seen this, they would have been told to knock it off or they would have joined them. It's only a big deal because it went public.
It's never a big deal until you get caught.
Quote from: Barrister on January 13, 2012, 04:40:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
I have no doubt that if this vid had not gone viral and an NCO or Officer had seen this, they would have been told to knock it off or they would have joined them. It's only a big deal because it went public.
It's never a big deal until you get caught.
hehe...yea
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
But really if a German soldier does something in Afghanistan he gets sent back to Germany to be tried in a civilian court?
Depends. Minor disciplinary issues are handled by the chain of command which would be in Afghanistan, major disciplinary cases are handled by special courts that are headed by a professional judge who is assisted by two military lay judges. Those courts are in Germany. For criminal stuff (e.g. desertion, mutiny, disobeyance of orders, officers mistreating their men, war crimes etc.) normal civilian criminal courts are responsible and both the judges and the prosecutor will be civilians.
Anyway, I don't really try to convince you that our way is better or anything. Each country has to find its own way. The concept of being judged by peers has its charms too.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 04:52:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
But really if a German soldier does something in Afghanistan he gets sent back to Germany to be tried in a civilian court?
Depends. Minor disciplinary issues are handled by the chain of command which would be in Afghanistan, major disciplinary cases are handled by special courts that are headed by a professional judge who is assisted by two military lay judges. Those courts are in Germany. For criminal stuff (e.g. desertion, mutiny, disobeyance of orders, officers mistreating their men, war crimes etc.) normal civilian criminal courts are responsible and both the judges and the prosecutor will be civilians.
Anyway, I don't really try to convince you that our way is better or anything. Each country has to find its own way. The concept of being judged by peers has its charms too.
So, you think a US Military CM does not have a jury?
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
I have no doubt that if this vid had not gone viral and an NCO or Officer had seen this, they would have been told to knock it off or they would have joined them. It's only a big deal because it went public.
That is the problem.
IMO the best resolution would have been their NCO going ballistic and making their lives a misery for a few weeks, with the big wide world never finding out about it. These are young men in difficult circumstances commiting a foolish act, their lives may well be ruined now that is in the public sphere.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 05:03:45 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
I have no doubt that if this vid had not gone viral and an NCO or Officer had seen this, they would have been told to knock it off or they would have joined them. It's only a big deal because it went public.
That is the problem.
IMO the best resolution would have been their NCO going ballistic and making their lives a misery for a few weeks, with the big wide world never finding out about it. These are young men in difficult circumstances commiting a foolish act, their lives may well be ruined now that is in the public sphere.
Every been around a bunch of Grunts? Keep living in a fantasy world.
I would have built a pyramid of skulls.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 13, 2012, 05:09:00 PM
I would have built a pyramid of skulls.
and it would've beeen gloriuos.... :lol:
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 13, 2012, 05:09:00 PM
I would have built a pyramid of skulls.
Decimating the marine unit might have hurt morale...
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 05:03:45 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
I have no doubt that if this vid had not gone viral and an NCO or Officer had seen this, they would have been told to knock it off or they would have joined them. It's only a big deal because it went public.
That is the problem.
IMO the best resolution would have been their NCO going ballistic and making their lives a misery for a few weeks, with the big wide world never finding out about it. These are young men in difficult circumstances commiting a foolish act, their lives may well be ruined now that is in the public sphere.
Every been around a bunch of Grunts? Keep living in a fantasy world.
I don't know what you mean :hmm:
You are going to have to spell it out for me.
Quote from: dps on January 13, 2012, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
You seem to be implying that the marines involved are better off being tried by a court martial than in a civilian criminal court. Well, you might be right if we're talking about an Afghan civilian court, but I suspect that a court martial can hand down a far harsher penalty than a civilian criminal court could in the US. In a civilian court, all they could be charged with AFAIK in most jurisdictions would be desecrating a corpse, which would probably just draw a relatively small fine (though I'm not sure about that). I'm sure that a court martial could level some far more serious charges.
I dont imply they would be better off. My point is this is a good example of why military justice should be separate since what occurred is so far outside the realm of experience of a civilian jurist.
Quote from: Josephus on January 13, 2012, 03:29:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:24:06 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 13, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
This case is a good reason for having military tribunals. I have never lived under the stress these men have. They are best judged by people that can understand the context in which these acts occurred and the rules and regulations the military has for governing their conduct.
To counter the state within the state effect, I prefer having the military being subject to the normal civilian judiciary. It's part of the oversight of civil society over the military.
I wouldnt want to waste the money required to have expert witnesses explain to a civilian judiciary what it is like to be a soldier.
It's irrelevent though. Soldiers have rules. They breaks the rules, they face the punishment. There's not need for expert witnesses to explain what it's like to be in the army. The rules for conduct is made for soldiers.
Otherwise the case goes something like this:
Judge: "Soldier. You are here because you peed on the dead enemy. Which goes against the rules of conduct, as well as everything we stand for. What's your excuse?"
Soldier. "War. what is it good for? Absolutely nothing."
Judge: "Do we have a cooroborating witness?"
Witness: "Yes. I was in the first Gulf War. War is bad. I know someone who almost died."
Judge: "Fuck? REally? Release the soldier at once. Case dismissed. And next time we make rules about war conduct we should take into account that war is hell."
I dont think you understand the purpose of expert witnesses in this context, either that or you are trolling.
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
Sure you can. I for one am glad that those Marines are not only fighting and killing the people who would want to support Al Qaeda and kill me, but they're pissing on their corpses as well. Sorta like a golden exclamation point to the whole thing.
The Taliban deserve no quarter, deserve no respect. They'd give none to you or me in heartbeat, cockface.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:06:30 PM
But bottomline is they embarrassed Uncle Sam publically and the Military will make them pay.
I'd rather they weren't forced out. Cooling their heels in the stockade should be sufficient.
It is curious that people seem angry that the guys pissed on a corpse, not that they killed the people in the first place. If I had to chose between being killed by Marines or humiliated on camera with four guys pissing on me I think I'd go with the second one.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 05:58:21 PM
or humiliated on camera with four guys pissing on me I think I'd go with the second one.
You can probably make some good money on the side. Imma jus sayin
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 01:01:12 PM
I am saying it is a human reaction to combat so not too terribly shocking. They are praised for basically giving up their humanity and taking on a horrible burden so I do not have to. So volunteering to become the sort of person who would kill some dudes and then piss on them is part of what makes them heroes. I mean to the extent they are.
""We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf." - W. Churchill.
True, that.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:56:05 PM
So, you think a US Military CM does not have a jury?
If he thought this, he would be right. There is no jury in a CM, just a panel. They are all technically judges. Been there, did that.
This would make an awesome NCIS episode. If Ziva got pissed on.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2012, 05:03:45 PM
That is the problem.
IMO the best resolution would have been their NCO going ballistic and making their lives a misery for a few weeks, with the big wide world never finding out about it. These are young men in difficult circumstances commiting a foolish act, their lives may well be ruined now that is in the public sphere.
Agree. Not sure that their lives will be ruined (if they get worse than a Bad Conduct Discharge I will be astonished and amazed). BCDs revert to general discharges after some few years. A GD doesn't ruin your life.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2012, 05:53:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
I'm just annoyed by the cognitive dissonance of people saying on one hand that pissing on dead bodies is after all what killers do, but then the next day going on to praise these people as heroes and rolemodels. You can't have it both ways.
Sure you can. I for one am glad that those Marines are not only fighting and killing the people who would want to support Al Qaeda and kill me, but they're pissing on their corpses as well. Sorta like a golden exclamation point to the whole thing.
The Taliban deserve no quarter, deserve no respect. They'd give none to you or me in heartbeat, cockface.
Well said
Quote from: grumbler on January 13, 2012, 06:08:07 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 13, 2012, 04:56:05 PM
So, you think a US Military CM does not have a jury?
If he thought this, he would be right. There is no jury in a CM, just a panel. They are all technically judges. Been there, did that.
Close enough.
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
After some thought (and some beers), I have to admit that these guys do indeed deserve to get bounced from The Corps -- not for mentally & emotionally dehumanizing the enemy to the point where they felt compelled to piss on their corpses after killing them (hell, give me a case of PBR, a couple of Black Sabbath LP's & eight hours alone in my garage & I'm at that level
without getting shot at), but rather from being dumb enough to record it & put it on Teh Interwebs & making politicians have to explain it...
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
After some thought (and some beers), I have to admit that these guys do indeed deserve to get bounced from The Corps -- not for mentally & emotionally dehumanizing the enemy to the point where they felt compelled to piss on their corpses after killing them (hell, give me a case of PBR, a couple of Black Sabbath LP's & eight hours alone in my garage & I'm at that level without getting shot at), but rather from being dumb enough to record it & put it on Teh Interwebs & making politicians have to explain it...
Ah, to be 19 again...
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
After some thought (and some beers), I have to admit that these guys do indeed deserve to get bounced from The Corps -- not for mentally & emotionally dehumanizing the enemy to the point where they felt compelled to piss on their corpses after killing them (hell, give me a case of PBR, a couple of Black Sabbath LP's & eight hours alone in my garage & I'm at that level without getting shot at), but rather from being dumb enough to record it & put it on Teh Interwebs & making politicians have to explain it...
If cops haven't figured that out in over 20 years, why would you think Marines would?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 14, 2012, 01:35:09 AM
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
After some thought (and some beers), I have to admit that these guys do indeed deserve to get bounced from The Corps -- not for mentally & emotionally dehumanizing the enemy to the point where they felt compelled to piss on their corpses after killing them (hell, give me a case of PBR, a couple of Black Sabbath LP's & eight hours alone in my garage & I'm at that level without getting shot at), but rather from being dumb enough to record it & put it on Teh Interwebs & making politicians have to explain it...
If cops haven't figured that out in over 20 years, why would you think Marines would?
Marines are smarter than cops.
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 13, 2012, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 02:57:42 PM
Gotta agree with Marty, no matter how much it pains me to do so.
I can understand how it is stupid I was just confused why it was astounding. You see the psychological struggles Siege goes through.
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
Several reasons. The internet generation thinks in graphic terms. If there is no video record of it, it didn't happen.
You know, the price we pay for an oportunity to go to war is rather high.
Waking up everyday at 0415 in the morning, doing crazy bone breaking physical training, combat training day and night, rain or snow, endless formations, military discipline, no sick days unless you are really sick almost dying certified by an Army doctor, petty pay, shaving, haircuts, guard duty, and so on.
It really sucks and no money can properly compensate for what we put ourself through. We all end up with chronic pain and broken knees for the rest of our lives.
Then when we finally get there, we have to survive with Rules of Engagements designed to get us killed.
I ain't gonna tell my boys that they can't take videos or pictures. Fuck no.
I always make sure stupid shit does not happens, and so it does not get taped.
But stupid shit happens regardless of my best efforts and if it happens, you can be sure it will be taped.
Too me, the best way is to always make clear to my soldiers beforehand what they can do and what they can't, according with our RoEs.
And repeat it until they get it.
Still, stupid shit its going to happen, that's the nature of the beast.
The only think I can do is to control that the shit is not THAT stupid.
Pissing on dead bodies would be the last of my worries.
I would definitively not let it happen on my watch because it is an indicator of a breakdown in discipline.
It would lead to worst things.
But it is really very mild, and you can be sure the "Greatest Generation" did far worst with the Krauts and the Japs.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 05:58:21 PM
or humiliated on camera with four guys pissing on me I think I'd go with the second one.
You can probably make some good money on the side. Imma jus sayin
:yes:
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:15:25 AM
Pissing on dead bodies would be the last of my worries.
I would definitively not let it happen on my watch because it is an indicator of a breakdown in discipline.
It would lead to worst things.
But it is really very mild, and you can be sure the "Greatest Generation" did far worst with the Krauts and the Japs.
See what you said there makes sense. All the people in this thread going on about how it's perfectly normal to pee on dead bodies because of the stress of war. No, it isn't. The urge may be. But not the act. Soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and trained. And these guys obviously weren't and that's why they should be disciplined.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
See what you said there makes sense. All the people in this thread going on about how it's perfectly normal to pee on dead bodies because of the stress of war.
Who are those people? I don't see anyone arguing that, other than Neil, and Neil doesn't count since his posts are all trolls.
QuoteNo, it isn't. The urge may be. But not the act. Soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and trained. And these guys obviously weren't and that's why they should be disciplined.
Well, you beat the stuffing out of
that straw man! Well-done. You, too, are a hero!
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:15:25 AM
Pissing on dead bodies would be the last of my worries.
I would definitively not let it happen on my watch because it is an indicator of a breakdown in discipline.
It would lead to worst things.
But it is really very mild, and you can be sure the "Greatest Generation" did far worst with the Krauts and the Japs.
See what you said there makes sense. All the people in this thread going on about how it's perfectly normal to pee on dead bodies because of the stress of war. No, it isn't. The urge may be. But not the act. Soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and trained. And these guys obviously weren't and that's why they should be disciplined.
Well, it is perfectly normal. There isn't a single war in history where that sort of thing didn't go on. The idea that soldiers should be disciplined and trained to always look good on camera is a new one. It's sort of like the Victorian Royal Navy, which didn't practice gunnery because the burnt propellant would ruin the finish on their ships, which they polished and primped. That's why Western militaries aren't able to win anything anymore.
Quote from: grumbler on January 15, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
See what you said there makes sense. All the people in this thread going on about how it's perfectly normal to pee on dead bodies because of the stress of war.
Who are those people? I don't see anyone arguing that, other than Neil, and Neil doesn't count since his posts are all trolls.
Most of them, true. But some of them are just throwaway observations, where I'm not looking to troll anyone.
Quote from: Neil on January 15, 2012, 10:38:42 AM
Most of them, true. But some of them are just throwaway observations, where I'm not looking to troll anyone.
Correction acknowledged.
Quote from: grumbler on January 15, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
Who are those people? I don't see anyone arguing that, other than Neil, and Neil doesn't count since his posts are all trolls.
I wasnt thinking Neil.
For starters I'd say 11B4V; CCR; VAlmy; CDM.
Quote from: grumber
Well, you beat the stuffing out of that straw man! Well-done. You, too, are a hero!
Ah yes, the "Straw-Man" defence...surprised it took that long to air its ugly head. Waiting for the "marines are Nazis" to come up soon.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 15, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
Who are those people? I don't see anyone arguing that, other than Neil, and Neil doesn't count since his posts are all trolls.
I wasnt thinking Neil.
For starters I'd say 11B4V; CCR; VAlmy; CDM.
Quote from: grumber
Well, you beat the stuffing out of that straw man! Well-done. You, too, are a hero!
Ah yes, the "Straw-Man" defence...surprised it took that long to air its ugly head. Waiting for the "marines are Nazis" to come up soon.
Please point out where I said this was normal.
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 12:48:57 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 14, 2012, 01:35:09 AM
Quote from: C.C.R. on January 13, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
I am somewhat astounded that there are military people out there who still don't apparently understand that doing shit like this and recording it is not a great plan.
After some thought (and some beers), I have to admit that these guys do indeed deserve to get bounced from The Corps -- not for mentally & emotionally dehumanizing the enemy to the point where they felt compelled to piss on their corpses after killing them (hell, give me a case of PBR, a couple of Black Sabbath LP's & eight hours alone in my garage & I'm at that level without getting shot at), but rather from being dumb enough to record it & put it on Teh Interwebs & making politicians have to explain it...
If cops haven't figured that out in over 20 years, why would you think Marines would?
Marines are smarter than cops.
Apparenetly not. When have you seen a cop piss on a dead body?
Quote from: 11B4V on January 15, 2012, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 15, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
Who are those people? I don't see anyone arguing that, other than Neil, and Neil doesn't count since his posts are all trolls.
I wasnt thinking Neil.
For starters I'd say 11B4V; CCR; VAlmy; CDM.
Quote from: grumber
Well, you beat the stuffing out of that straw man! Well-done. You, too, are a hero!
Ah yes, the "Straw-Man" defence...surprised it took that long to air its ugly head. Waiting for the "marines are Nazis" to come up soon.
Please point out where I said this was normal.
Well you didn't come out and say it but you certainly implied that you support what they did.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:15:25 AM
Pissing on dead bodies would be the last of my worries.
I would definitively not let it happen on my watch because it is an indicator of a breakdown in discipline.
It would lead to worst things.
But it is really very mild, and you can be sure the "Greatest Generation" did far worst with the Krauts and the Japs.
See what you said there makes sense. All the people in this thread going on about how it's perfectly normal to pee on dead bodies because of the stress of war. No, it isn't. The urge may be. But not the act. Soldiers are supposed to be disciplined and trained. And these guys obviously weren't and that's why they should be disciplined.
You want to see some blood for this, don't you?
I would discipline the inmediate leadership for letting this happen, but I would not be too hard on the joes.
Joes are joes and they will do what their leaders let them do.
It is that simple.
It is the NCOs job to show Joe what right looks like, and enforce the rules and regulations.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
.surprised it took that long to air its ugly head.
Inventing another saying, eh? I mean, I know your head airs up, but I've never heard someone refer to others' doing the same...
Perry supports the Marines.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Perry-Marines-in-video-are-kids-not-criminals-2543013.php
Here's your original claim. Case you forgot.
QuoteAll the people in this thread going on about how it's perfectly normal to pee on dead bodies because of the stress of war.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 05:21:02 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 15, 2012, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 15, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
Who are those people? I don't see anyone arguing that, other than Neil, and Neil doesn't count since his posts are all trolls.
I wasnt thinking Neil.
For starters I'd say 11B4V; CCR; VAlmy; CDM.
Quote from: grumber
Well, you beat the stuffing out of that straw man! Well-done. You, too, are a hero!
Ah yes, the "Straw-Man" defence...surprised it took that long to air its ugly head. Waiting for the "marines are Nazis" to come up soon.
Please point out where I said this was normal.
Well you didn't come out and say it but you certainly implied that you support what they did.
So now it's implied....poor attempt at "The languish Two Step". I implied nothing of the sort. Most of my posts were talking about Court Martials. Get it right Asshat.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fflipthatbird.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fstone-cold-steve-austin-flipping-bird.jpg&hash=bdade6072e4553d36b969e4c6540b3ace8354772)
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
For starters I'd say 11B4V; CCR; VAlmy; CDM.
Let's see
11B4V
QuoteIt [doing shit like this]'s not [a great plan]
CCR:
QuoteI have to admit that these guys do indeed deserve to get bounced from The Corps
Valmy:
QuoteWell when you are brutalized you do fucked up things.
CDM:
QuoteI for one am glad that those Marines are not only fighting and killing the people who would want to support Al Qaeda and kill me, but they're pissing on their corpses as well.
Sounds like "All the people in this thread" is, in fact, just one guy.
QuoteAh yes, the "Straw-Man" defence...surprised it took that long to air its ugly head. Waiting for the "marines are Nazis" to come up soon.
This is the first I have heard of a "straw man defense." Whose defending what with it, and how is it "air[ing] its ugly head?" The "marines are Nazis" thing just came up... from you. I must admit that I haven't heard that one before. Heard 'em called lots of things (hell, called 'em lots of things) but not Nazis.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 15, 2012, 08:16:28 PM
So now it's implied....poor attempt at "The languish Two Step". I implied nothing of the sort. Most of my posts were talking about Court Martials. Get it right Asshat.
Don't worry. No one reading with any care for meaning mistook what you said for anything like approval.
At least we got a stone cold Steve Austin reference out of this.
Austin 3:16
Quote from: grumbler on January 15, 2012, 08:29:28 PM
CDM:
QuoteI for one am glad that those Marines are not only fighting and killing the people who would want to support Al Qaeda and kill me, but they're pissing on their corpses as well.
Sounds like "All the people in this thread" is, in fact, just one guy.
FWIW, grumbler, I would've approved of you pissing overboard on the Russkies, but it probably wouldn't have had the same effect.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2012, 08:48:21 PM
FWIW, grumbler, I would've approved of you pissing overboard on the Russkies, but it probably wouldn't have had the same effect.
Is this where I am supposed to whip out the "I've pissed more salt water than you've sailed over" line?
I always loved that line, even when my chiefs used it on me.
Not as good as the line the Marine DI used on me:
DI: Did YOU polish YOUR SHOES?
Me: YES, DRILL SERGEANT!
DI: With WHAT?
DOG SHIT?I laughed, and we all ran around the drill field for half an hour.
Gotta love the Gyrenes.