http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e9_1300102958
A school bully's victimn finally cracks, gives his tormentor his due :menace:
And is sent home for his effort while the bully goes free :(
V
Quote from: Valdemar on March 15, 2011, 06:22:09 AM
And is sent home for his effort while the bully goes free :(
That is usually how it goes.
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
That's a good take down. Should have kicked him in the face while he was down too.
Also go rampage on the tall kid that got close after. Assholes gotta learn to respect bigger kids.
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
Yeah, but that is usually because it is the kid responding who is actually seen, while the instigator is not seen. So you end up with one kid who *certainly* did something wrong, and another kid who you only have the word of someone else that they did something wrong.
This is a bullshit excuse though - it basically happens, IMO, because the adults don't want to go to the effort of actually figuring out what happened. That would involve actually talking to multiple kids to sort out what really happened. Too much bother. So they just punish the kid they KNOW did something wrong.
Although this could be changing. Certainly one thing in my kids elementary school that I have been really impressed with is how seriously the principals and teachers take bullying. It is absolutely not tolerated, and they seem to put significant resources into making that clear to the students and parents, and from what I can tell, it actually seems to have worked. Interesting to see if it holds true when my son goes off to middle school next year.
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
One can hope that bthe vid will act in the bullied boy's defense. usually you only get hearsay "he started, no he started"
V
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
I'd think so although I wonder who they would consider more of a problem...the person who instigates fights or the individual that escalates situations to violence.
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:47:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
I'd think so although I wonder who they would consider more of a problem...the person who instigates fights or the individual that escalates situations to violence.
I have to assume that the bully, the smaller kid, picked fights with the big kid before. But in any event the "bully" sucker punched the other kid, threw a few more punches, and started dancing around to fight. The other kid defended himself, and I'd say it could be argued that he used similar force in response against the bully to defend himself.
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:47:40 AM
I'd think so although I wonder who they would consider more of a problem...the person who instigates fights or the individual that escalates situations to violence.
Even then, the bully would be a higher-priority concern to me. If the bully could be a catalyst for inciting one student to violence, odds look pretty good the bully could be a catalyst for multiple violent incidents.
It's also hypocritical- most schools talk some kind of a tough-ish "zero tolerance on bullying" kind of game and yet react to bullies slowly, if at all. It seems like it takes a class' worth of students coming forward before any action is taken against a known bully.
According to the news article in Danish that first linked the vid. the bully has a history of harrassing this victim and the victim a history of not responding. Thats probably why the bully dared to be so openly aggressive.
V
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:47:40 AM
I'd think so although I wonder who they would consider more of a problem...the person who instigates fights or the individual that escalates situations to violence.
:huh: In the case of this video, it is the same kid (the one on the left).
Yeah, the skinny bully very clearly punches the big kid smack in the face, hard, twice, let alone any previous record.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 15, 2011, 09:20:02 AM
It's also hypocritical- most schools talk some kind of a tough-ish "zero tolerance on bullying" kind of game and yet react to bullies slowly, if at all. It seems like it takes a class' worth of students coming forward before any action is taken against a known bully.
Interesting. How do you know how "most schools" talk and react? Personal experience, or do you have some study that supports such a dubious contention?
My experience is that every school with which i have had experience has a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullying, like the policy on tobacco and alcohol.
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 09:32:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:47:40 AM
I'd think so although I wonder who they would consider more of a problem...the person who instigates fights or the individual that escalates situations to violence.
:huh: In the case of this video, it is the same kid (the one on the left).
I wasn't talking specifically about this case.
Quote from: Berkut on March 15, 2011, 08:42:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
Yeah, but that is usually because it is the kid responding who is actually seen, while the instigator is not seen. So you end up with one kid who *certainly* did something wrong, and another kid who you only have the word of someone else that they did something wrong.
This is a bullshit excuse though - it basically happens, IMO, because the adults don't want to go to the effort of actually figuring out what happened. That would involve actually talking to multiple kids to sort out what really happened. Too much bother. So they just punish the kid they KNOW did something wrong.
Although this could be changing. Certainly one thing in my kids elementary school that I have been really impressed with is how seriously the principals and teachers take bullying. It is absolutely not tolerated, and they seem to put significant resources into making that clear to the students and parents, and from what I can tell, it actually seems to have worked. Interesting to see if it holds true when my son goes off to middle school next year.
Yeah, that is something I'll be looking for too. In my day as a schoolkid, it was more of a wild west attitude - if you got beat, you were expected to suck it up, and if you complained about it kids and teachers alike held you in low esteem.
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
I remember the two times I stood up to bullying by fighting back, I ended up with a three-hour headmaster's detention on both occasions. But then we were endlessly lectured by teachers on how there was no place for bullying in a school.
The conclusion I drew is that it was better to take the odd gut-punch then to get suspended from school.
Quote from: Warspite on March 15, 2011, 10:51:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
I remember the two times I stood up to bullying by fighting back, I ended up with a three-hour headmaster's detention on both occasions. But then we were endlessly lectured by teachers on how there was no place for bullying in a school.
The conclusion I drew is that it was better to take the odd gut-punch then to get suspended from school.
Yeah, I thought this too. Then some kid broke my fucking arm. I wish I was smarter then and stood up to the bullies. I also wish I had the courage to tell the teachers they were incompetent fucks.
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 09:51:10 AM
I wasn't talking specifically about this case.
In general, people who instigate fights do so by engaging in violence. Schools, like society at large, certainly frown more on violence than
verbal bullying, but when we talk about bullying, we generally aren't talking about verbal bullying.
Quote from: Warspite on March 15, 2011, 10:51:33 AM
I remember the two times I stood up to bullying by fighting back, I ended up with a three-hour headmaster's detention on both occasions. But then we were endlessly lectured by teachers on how there was no place for bullying in a school.
The conclusion I drew is that it was better to take the odd gut-punch then to get suspended from school.
It depends. If the bullying is pretty much a one-off thing, then it probably is better to gut it out. If it is repeated, though, you are probably better-off getting the suspension than taking the abuse long-term.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2011, 11:38:23 AM
Quote from: Warspite on March 15, 2011, 10:51:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
I remember the two times I stood up to bullying by fighting back, I ended up with a three-hour headmaster's detention on both occasions. But then we were endlessly lectured by teachers on how there was no place for bullying in a school.
The conclusion I drew is that it was better to take the odd gut-punch then to get suspended from school.
Yeah, I thought this too. Then some kid broke my fucking arm. I wish I was smarter then and stood up to the bullies. I also wish I had the courage to tell the teachers they were incompetent fucks.
And
I wish I could always tell a story that would one-up every story anyone tells on this forum. :(
Quote from: Malthus on March 15, 2011, 09:55:00 AM
Yeah, that is something I'll be looking for too. In my day as a schoolkid, it was more of a wild west attitude - if you got beat, you were expected to suck it up, and if you complained about it kids and teachers alike held you in low esteem.
There have been advantages to all the "pussy parents" willing to sue at the drop of a hat, and one of them is that schools are expected to be a lot better at stopping bullying and abuse. The old "boys will be boys and girls will be girls" attitude seems to me to be pretty much gone.
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 11:49:55 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 15, 2011, 09:55:00 AM
Yeah, that is something I'll be looking for too. In my day as a schoolkid, it was more of a wild west attitude - if you got beat, you were expected to suck it up, and if you complained about it kids and teachers alike held you in low esteem.
There have been advantages to all the "pussy parents" willing to sue at the drop of a hat, and one of them is that schools are expected to be a lot better at stopping bullying and abuse. The old "boys will be boys and girls will be girls" attitude seems to me to be pretty much gone.
All my harsh, arbitrary mistreatment at school did was give me a victim complex.
Quote from: Valdemar on March 15, 2011, 06:22:09 AM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e9_1300102958
A school bully's victimn finally cracks, gives his tormentor his due :menace:
And is sent home for his effort while the bully goes free :(
V
that's the problem with bullying in schools. Teachers&directors penalize the victimes, not the tormentors.
I got bullied a fair amount in 6th and 7th grade but then started fighting back and got suspended several times in 7th and 8th grade. By high school people mostly left me alone.
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 11:47:32 AM
And
I wish I could always tell a story that would one-up every story anyone tells on this forum. :(
[/quote]
It's shame you can't. I guess you lived a boring life.
GOD DAMMIT.
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 11:49:55 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 15, 2011, 09:55:00 AM
Yeah, that is something I'll be looking for too. In my day as a schoolkid, it was more of a wild west attitude - if you got beat, you were expected to suck it up, and if you complained about it kids and teachers alike held you in low esteem.
There have been advantages to all the "pussy parents" willing to sue at the drop of a hat, and one of them is that schools are expected to be a lot better at stopping bullying and abuse. The old "boys will be boys and girls will be girls" attitude seems to me to be pretty much gone.
Heh, true. Plaintiff-side lawyers, to the rescue! :D
On another note - somewhat counterintuitively (in that parents usually go on about how much better things were when they were kids) I have found the teachers I have dealt with for kindergarden uniformly excellent - they clearly explained the pedogogical purposes for their lesson plans and seemed to just have a grip on things, and the kids actually seem to want to be there. Way I remember kindergarden (albeit memory is spotty) it was more like a zoo/jail.
Which was it? Zoo or jail?
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2011, 11:38:23 AM
Quote from: Warspite on March 15, 2011, 10:51:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
I remember the two times I stood up to bullying by fighting back, I ended up with a three-hour headmaster's detention on both occasions. But then we were endlessly lectured by teachers on how there was no place for bullying in a school.
The conclusion I drew is that it was better to take the odd gut-punch then to get suspended from school.
Yeah, I thought this too. Then some kid broke my fucking arm. I wish I was smarter then and stood up to the bullies. I also wish I had the courage to tell the teachers they were incompetent fucks.
And I wish I could always tell a story that would one-up every story anyone tells on this forum. :(
:lol:
Harassing the crippled kids now? Were you the bully growing up, or did getting bullied turn you into this mean spirited grumpy fucker?
More importantly, when you first carved these stories into cave walls, did your contemporaries consider it graffiti or was it considered a valid form of artistic expression?
I've had to deal with bullying with my kids on both sides of the coin.
As a package-deal, Carter & Jak were rarely bullied in elementary school, though they could - and often did - terrorize some of the socially weaker kids in elementary school. They quickly outgrew this, however, when their younger brother was the victim of a bully. Their response to the bully? Though the bully was quite a bit bigger than either boy, they scared him so badly that I was called to the school for a parent conference. End result: When the conversation was over - and all three of my boys were called in to talk about things - I was apologized to and no one was suspended. (Not even the bully, though he never bothered any of my kids again.)
When we moved downstate, Jak was bullied by a boy almost from the first day. After a few months of this, in which he never mentioned anything to me about it, the boy walked up to Jak in P.E. and punched Jak in the face. Jak didn't respond, the boy walked away, and then came back to take another swing. Jak picked the boy up, threw him down the bleachers, and proceeded to choke the shit out of the kid. End result: Jak received a one-day suspension and the other boy received a three-day suspension. I took Jak out to lunch and for ice cream, as I felt he'd done exactly what needed to have been done.
Jeremy was bullied by several boys during his seventh-grade year during Cross Country. This was while I worked at the school, so I was privy to the conversations going on about all of this. The kids were throwing sticks, rocks, and clumps of dirt at Jeremy and a few other kids. Jeremy ignored them completely, and went about his business. One of the other kids - a 6th-grade girl - went home in tears, and her parents showed up at the school pretty upset. End result: No suspensions, no missed cross country (they were the school's best chance at a State bid), nothing. A "don't do that anymore" talking to from the principal with their parents in the room. Didn't do squat to stop the bullying, so Carter & Jak talked to a couple of the boys' older brothers and basically warned them that they were going to go to the Middle School to kick the boys' asses if it didn't stop. The boys' older brothers put a stop to things.
Riley was a bully in elementary school. When she decided she didn't like someone, she made it her mission to make that person's life a living hell. At one point, one little girl refused to go to school for nearly a week because Riley had made things so awful for her, to the point of kicking the girl during P.E. leaving a softball-sized bruise on her thigh. I was called to the school, where I had to sit and watch the girl and her mother both tear up as the described all of the things my daughter had done to this child. End result: I was furious when the Principal refused to suspend Riley, so I pulled her out for three days, telling the other girl's mother that her daughter had a right to go to school without having to worry about if Riley were going to terrorize her. Riley received one of the few spankings of her life, was grounded to her room for 24 hours, and she and I had a very long talk about what her actions had done to the other girl. I then let her brothers know what she'd done, and they lit into her. Riley was allowed to go back to school (by me) after three days out, and she never bothered the girl again. In fact, Riley even invited the girl to a party she held a couple of months later. Ri never liked the other girl, but she never bullied her again.
By the way, in the six schools in three different school districts that my children have been in, they have all had a zero-tolerance for bullying policy in place. One - the Middle School - had even produced and made a video about ending bullying in the schools. It made little difference in their reaction to the bullying that took place. We certainly didn't receive a zero-tolerance reaction.
I was kind of a bully in early elementary school. I don't remember much of it but I remembered what made me stop. One angry giant size father really pissed off at me. He scared so much, I had trouble walking to school ( a 100m walk, if as much).
Later in life, I was bullied once but for some reason, I still don't know, the bully got his ass kick by the "back of the bus" gang after they witness what he did to me.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 15, 2011, 12:13:28 PM
I got bullied a fair amount in 6th and 7th grade but then started fighting back and got suspended several times in 7th and 8th grade. By high school people mostly left me alone.
I got suspended once and I didn't even hit the other guy. But I solved my problems otherwise. Never got bothered again by these wannabe Hell's.
The video is highly :lol: worthy.
Typical though what happened. Was always the same with me. People could pick on me just fine and get away with it, I smack them though and I get in trouble <_<
Quote from: Berkut on March 15, 2011, 08:42:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2011, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Obviously. Schools can't celebrate children fighting.
I was always amazed in school how the authorities seemed to consistently punish the kid who was provoked but leave the trouble makers to raise more hell untouched.
If a bully is going around provoking fights he probably should be punished also yes?
Yeah, but that is usually because it is the kid responding who is actually seen, while the instigator is not seen. So you end up with one kid who *certainly* did something wrong, and another kid who you only have the word of someone else that they did something wrong.
This is a bullshit excuse though - it basically happens, IMO, because the adults don't want to go to the effort of actually figuring out what happened. That would involve actually talking to multiple kids to sort out what really happened. Too much bother. So they just punish the kid they KNOW did something wrong.
Although this could be changing. Certainly one thing in my kids elementary school that I have been really impressed with is how seriously the principals and teachers take bullying. It is absolutely not tolerated, and they seem to put significant resources into making that clear to the students and parents, and from what I can tell, it actually seems to have worked. Interesting to see if it holds true when my son goes off to middle school next year.
A more interesting thing would be to see what happens when this pussified generation enters adulthood.
Yeah, I bet Marty was all bad ass in school.
Quote from: Berkut on March 15, 2011, 05:59:53 PM
Yeah, I bet Marty was all bad ass in school.
I was neither bullied nor was bullying others. School teaches social skills and life isn't always fair.
Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2011, 06:03:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 15, 2011, 05:59:53 PM
Yeah, I bet Marty was all bad ass in school.
I was neither bullied nor was bullying others. School teaches social skills and life isn't always fair.
So are you all pussified then, since you did not bully or get bullied?
I like running into the old school bullies in a store. Me: well off and successful. Them: in a greasy shirt, ugly wife and ugly kids. I just laugh.
This thread makes me scratch my head.
I was never Mr. Popularity, but I really wasn't ever bullied either. And I was a pretty big geek in school, no way around that.
Maybe a somewhat early puberty helped? There was a point when I was one of the tallest kids in class...
I was in a high school of 2000 people. There was usually 1 jerk + sycophants for each the freshman and sophomore classes. That shit went away after 10th grade. The bullies usually were left behind or were in gaol by 11th grade.
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2011, 06:28:16 PM
This thread makes me scratch my head.
I was never Mr. Popularity, but I really wasn't ever bullied either. And I was a pretty big geek in school, no way around that.
Maybe a somewhat early puberty helped? There was a point when I was one of the tallest kids in class...
Don't know what to tell you. Maybe because you are Canadian?
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2011, 06:28:16 PM
I was never Mr. Popularity, but I really wasn't ever bullied either.
Pussy.
My experience was that a lot of bullying was just overlooked. I think it was partly considered just part of how kids played with each other back then, and a lot of it was just a matter of the school athorities didn't really know how to respond to behavior that they didn't witness personally. Also, a lot of the bullying technically occured out of school--on the walk home for example.
Quote from: dps on March 15, 2011, 10:08:42 PM
My experience was that a lot of bullying was just overlooked. I think it was partly considered just part of how kids played with each other back then, and a lot of it was just a matter of the school athorities didn't really know how to respond to behavior that they didn't witness personally. Also, a lot of the bullying technically occured out of school--on the walk home for example.
The bullying I had was worst in Middle School. I think a great deal of the problem was due to the school being brand new. They were also trying new teaching methods (including one in the beginning where we were not issued any school books). Eventually the teachers just sort of gave up on trying to keep order and would just call the police if a major disturbance broke out. By the time I was in Eight grade they had a cop on duty there through out the day.
Quote from: Berkut on March 15, 2011, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2011, 06:03:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 15, 2011, 05:59:53 PM
Yeah, I bet Marty was all bad ass in school.
I was neither bullied nor was bullying others. School teaches social skills and life isn't always fair.
So are you all pussified then, since you did not bully or get bullied?
No. That's my point - there was bullying at my school but I managed to avoid it. IMO learning how is an important socializing lesson.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2011, 11:12:57 PM
I think a great deal of the problem was due to the school being brand new.
:zipped:
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2011, 06:28:16 PM
This thread makes me scratch my head.
I was never Mr. Popularity, but I really wasn't ever bullied either. And I was a pretty big geek in school, no way around that.
That's my experience too. I wonder if the fact that we both ended up as lawyers has something to do with it. I wonder if Malthus was bullied.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc
I wonder if you were both knocked on the head at some point, or perhaps accidentally made to ingest your own feces.
Well, it may sound like too much of a generalization, but ultimately I think bullying happens to people who induce aggression in other people - whether because they are different, or conceited, or snotty or whatever. It is not always fair - people get aggravated by stuff like other people being gay, or black or whatever - but it's a fact of life.
When you grow up, this kind of aggression does not go away - it just becomes more civilized - you are less likely to meet with physical violence or direct insults, but you are still being talked behind your back, overlooked for promotion or whatnot.
So my point is that being in a bullying environment teaches kids to develop social skills to either mask ("fit in") or transform this into non-passive-aggressive behaviour (sense of humour helps a lot for example if you are different and/or better at something than everyone else, want to stay being so, but don't want to be punched in the face too often).
I was a privileged background nerd who was gay (albeit unrealized at the moment), never had a girlfriend, had best grades in class and managed to get off attending PEd classes because I was so completely inept at sports. Yet I managed not to get bullied in a school that (because it was still under communist regime) had every kid from the area, including juvenile delinquents.
Sorry if it sounds socially darwinian but that's the way the world works.
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 11:43:46 AM
In general, people who instigate fights do so by engaging in violence. Schools, like society at large, certainly frown more on violence than verbal bullying, but when we talk about bullying, we generally aren't talking about verbal bullying.
I think in many cases verbal bullying can be for more damaing, esp. now where it can be spread out on facebook and other fora pretty quickly.
V
Quote from: Valdemar on March 16, 2011, 02:45:13 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 15, 2011, 11:43:46 AM
In general, people who instigate fights do so by engaging in violence. Schools, like society at large, certainly frown more on violence than verbal bullying, but when we talk about bullying, we generally aren't talking about verbal bullying.
I think in many cases verbal bullying can be for more damaing, esp. now where it can be spread out on facebook and other fora pretty quickly.
V
See, that's the kind of pussifying stuff I'm talking about it. "Verbal bullying". Suck it up for fucks sake. I can understand preventing more extreme forms of physical violence, but this is where it ends.
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 02:48:56 AM
See, that's the kind of pussifying stuff I'm talking about it. "Verbal bullying". Suck it up for fucks sake. I can understand preventing more extreme forms of physical violence, but this is where it ends.
A good thing you wont have kids marty dear.
A good number of verbal bullying can be just as terrrifying as a physical, espcially since it can reach you outside of school, yuo have no safe havens. there has been alot of cases of pics taken and spread in mbile chains alongwith harsh comments that have made kids try suicide and in one case (US ofc ;)) where a mother resorted to pretending to be teen driving one of her daughters classmates to suicide on a social media.
So yeah, when we were kids verbal abuse could be harsh, degrading and alot harder to take than physical, but it stayed in school. Not so today.
V
Kids today need to learn the same mantra we did- "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." While not completely accurate it's a useful thing to tell oneself.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 16, 2011, 03:08:50 AM
Kids today need to learn the same mantra we did- "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." While not completely accurate it's a useful thing to tell oneself.
That's a stupid mantra. Public humiliation that all your immature peers know about is nothing to scoff at, I'll take a couple of broken non-critical bones over that.
I was never bullied in US, I managed to just be one of the guys on neither end of the bullying spectrum. Ukraine was an entirely different story. I don't think there was a month when I wasn't involved in some non-trivial fight.
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
That's a stupid mantra. Public humiliation that all your immature peers know about is nothing to scoff at, I'll take a couple of broken non-critical bones over that.
Public humiliation is only as painful as you let it be.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 16, 2011, 05:18:23 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
That's a stupid mantra. Public humiliation that all your immature peers know about is nothing to scoff at, I'll take a couple of broken non-critical bones over that.
Public humiliation is only as painful as you let it be.
Sure it is, but kids should have a decent chance of handling it and today some cases are more like persecution and libel than mere mockery because you are fat. Not to mention backed up by mass distribution and photos.
V
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 02:41:36 AM
Sorry if it sounds socially darwinian but that's the way the world works.
So in the end, you're no better than the invaders 72 years ago.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 16, 2011, 05:18:23 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
That's a stupid mantra. Public humiliation that all your immature peers know about is nothing to scoff at, I'll take a couple of broken non-critical bones over that.
Public humiliation is only as painful as you let it be.
That's not true at all for children.
I love the idea that since Marty was not bullied, then the fact that other people WERE bullied somehow made him a better person. And their being beat up and humiliated is a necessary thing to happen in order for him to "not be a pussy".
Does that apply to bullies who beat the shit out of gay guys? Just a necessary thing in order to serve as an example to others, so they can function better in our society?
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 07:31:19 AM
I love the idea that since Marty was not bullied, then the fact that other people WERE bullied somehow made him a better person. And their being beat up and humiliated is a necessary thing to happen in order for him to "not be a pussy".
Does that apply to bullies who beat the shit out of gay guys? Just a necessary thing in order to serve as an example to others, so they can function better in our society?
:D
I love Languish
V
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 07:31:19 AM
I love the idea that since Marty was not bullied, then the fact that other people WERE bullied somehow made him a better person. And their being beat up and humiliated is a necessary thing to happen in order for him to "not be a pussy".
Does that apply to bullies who beat the shit out of gay guys? Just a necessary thing in order to serve as an example to others, so they can function better in our society?
:pinch:
I would say Mart is just trolling, but then that doesn't really jibe with his serious hissy fits.
So, sometimes I think he just says shit to be contrarian without thinking through the implications of his words.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 08:09:57 AM
I would say Mart is just trolling, but then that doesn't really jibe with his serious hissy fits.
So, sometimes I think he just says shit to be contrarian without thinking through the implications of his words.
fixed
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 08:09:57 AM
I would say Mart is just trolling, but then that doesn't really jibe with his serious hissy fits.
So, sometimes I think he just says shit to be contrarian without thinking through the implications of his words.
Don't we all do that sometimes?
I also like the part where Meri concludes that, if a school has bullying, it doesn't have a zero tolerance policy. :lol:
Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2011, 08:16:13 AM
I also like the part where Meri concludes that, if a school has bullying, it doesn't have a zero tolerance policy. :lol:
I think she concluded it based on Riley not being suspended despite being rather vicious.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 16, 2011, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 08:09:57 AM
I would say Mart is just trolling, but then that doesn't really jibe with his serious hissy fits.
So, sometimes I think he just says shit to be contrarian without thinking through the implications of his words.
Don't we all do that sometimes?
Not with quite the homoflair and outlandishness as Mart.
Honestly, I think there's truth in what Marti says... for his generation. When I was a child, there were a few kids who were bullied occasionally at school. Their lives were difficult, but they did learn to fight back, stay unseen, or how to make friends with people who could and would defend them. Most of those kids I've run into as an adult and they are fairly successful over all, though they despise talking about our youth. Those who were horribly bullied committed suicide early on. So in a Darwinian sense, he's correct.
What Marti fails to understand is that today's bullies are not yesterdays. Bullying seems to have become almost systematized. It's not just one or two bullies picking on one or two kids. There are whole groups of kids (boys and girls alike) who choose a single person to destroy. They take a dislike to them for some unknown reason, and then set out to destroy every aspect of their lives at school, at home, in public. Like Valdemar says, it can now easily go global in a matter of moments. It invades every aspect of their lives. And while some of you may say that the kids should just ignore it, that's an adult speaking.
For kids, everything is the Here and Now. In other words, the reason we, as adults, can blow that kind of stuff off is because we know that in a few days (or weeks) something new will come along and our stuff will be forgotten. For kids, what happens Right Here and Right Now is FOREVER. They haven't yet gotten the concept of time down. I mean, sure, they can tell time, but the idea that what's happening now isn't going to be the same tomorrow hasn't quite penetrated for them. And, as Valdemar has said, there is no escape.
This is one of those areas that was horrible when we were kids, and has only gotten worse. And quite frankly, I'm not willing to offer up any children to the Darwinian theory simply because it's easier than dealing with the problem at its root.
Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2011, 08:16:13 AM
I also like the part where Meri concludes that, if a school has bullying, it doesn't have a zero tolerance policy. :lol:
:mellow:
I guess grumbler has his bad reading comprehension days, too.
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 08:17:21 AM
I think she concluded it based on Riley not being suspended despite being rather vicious.
But zero tolerance of bullying doesn't mean a suspension every time someone accuses someone else of being mean. If Riley formally
admitted assaulting the other girl and received no punishment, then the school definitely not only lacks a zero tolerance policy, but lacks a sane principal. Unfortunately, there are as many incompetent hacks in education as in economics and statistics.
Quote from: merithyn on March 16, 2011, 08:27:58 AM
:mellow:
I guess grumbler has his bad reading comprehension days, too.
:mellow:
I guess Meri has her need to blame someone, anyone, for those times when she is unable to communicate clearly.
Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2011, 08:35:22 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 08:17:21 AM
I think she concluded it based on Riley not being suspended despite being rather vicious.
But zero tolerance of bullying doesn't mean a suspension every time someone accuses someone else of being mean. If Riley formally admitted assaulting the other girl and received no punishment, then the school definitely not only lacks a zero tolerance policy, but lacks a sane principal. Unfortunately, there are as many incompetent hacks in education as in economics and statistics.
She did. :mellow:
Quote from: merithyn on March 16, 2011, 08:26:30 AM
Honestly, I think there's truth in what Marti says... for his generation. When I was a child, there were a few kids who were bullied occasionally at school. Their lives were difficult, but they did learn to fight back, stay unseen, or how to make friends with people who could and would defend them. Most of those kids I've run into as an adult and they are fairly successful over all, though they despise talking about our youth. Those who were horribly bullied committed suicide early on. So in a Darwinian sense, he's correct.
What Marti fails to understand is that today's bullies are not yesterdays. Bullying seems to have become almost systematized. It's not just one or two bullies picking on one or two kids. There are whole groups of kids (boys and girls alike) who choose a single person to destroy. They take a dislike to them for some unknown reason, and then set out to destroy every aspect of their lives at school, at home, in public. Like Valdemar says, it can now easily go global in a matter of moments. It invades every aspect of their lives. And while some of you may say that the kids should just ignore it, that's an adult speaking.
For kids, everything is the Here and Now. In other words, the reason we, as adults, can blow that kind of stuff off is because we know that in a few days (or weeks) something new will come along and our stuff will be forgotten. For kids, what happens Right Here and Right Now is FOREVER. They haven't yet gotten the concept of time down. I mean, sure, they can tell time, but the idea that what's happening now isn't going to be the same tomorrow hasn't quite penetrated for them. And, as Valdemar has said, there is no escape.
This is one of those areas that was horrible when we were kids, and has only gotten worse. And quite frankly, I'm not willing to offer up any children to the Darwinian theory simply because it's easier than dealing with the problem at its root.
I don't actually agree - I think this is just the standard idea that "things were better/worse when I was a kid...".
The variability between locations is likely much more relevant than the variability over time. In other words, it might look better or worse to you compared to when you were a kid, but how do you know that isn't just because you happen to have moved somewhere where it is better or worse, as opposed to things getting worse over time?
Bullying is bullshit. It is a socially destructive process where children who do not really understand what they are doing harm one another. It does not need to be "part of growing up" anymore than the occasional kid getting third degree burns is necessary in order to teach kids to not play with gasoline and matches.
There are plenty of ways to teach children about how to interact with one another without the need to harm other children in the process. The idea that we are "pussifying" a generation because the adults decide to stop letting kids beat the shit out of whoever they decide are the social outcasts is idiotic. The only thing it shows is that some people never really grow up, and still think being bigots and bullies is just fine - as long as it is some OTHER group that is the ones selected for their hate.
I am very happy that this has become much more of an issue in US society at least (well, it is here in suburbia New York), and that finally adults are realizing that kids bullying one another is not just "kids being kids" - or rather, it IS kids being kids, but it is incredibly destructive and should not be tolerated. It might be the one positive that came out of Columbine, even though nobody will come right out and say it.
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2011, 06:28:16 PM
This thread makes me scratch my head.
I was never Mr. Popularity, but I really wasn't ever bullied either. And I was a pretty big geek in school, no way around that.
Maybe a somewhat early puberty helped? There was a point when I was one of the tallest kids in class...
Yeah, same here. I guess being taller and generally friendly to everyone helped. Plus, I don't think there was much bullying at my schools. If there was, I never noticed it.
I'd drag Mart behind a truck.
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 08:39:42 AM
I don't actually agree - I think this is just the standard idea that "things were better/worse when I was a kid...".
The variability between locations is likely much more relevant than the variability over time. In other words, it might look better or worse to you compared to when you were a kid, but how do you know that isn't just because you happen to have moved somewhere where it is better or worse, as opposed to things getting worse over time?
I would agree with this if it weren't for the online stuff that's now going on. The bullying permeates every aspect of a child's life now, which wasn't happening when I was a child. Of course, I think you and I are looking at two different things. Your kids are still young enough that you're seeing this through an elementary school lens, whereas mine are in middle school and high school, where things have stepped well and truly into the information age. I didn't notice a whole lot of differences in bullying between my childhood and my kids' while they were in elementary school, except that it was at least discussed. Once they got older, it was an entirely new situation.
QuoteBullying is bullshit. It is a socially destructive process where children who do not really understand what they are doing harm one another. It does not need to be "part of growing up" anymore than the occasional kid getting third degree burns is necessary in order to teach kids to not play with gasoline and matches.
There are plenty of ways to teach children about how to interact with one another without the need to harm other children in the process. The idea that we are "pussifying" a generation because the adults decide to stop letting kids beat the shit out of whoever they decide are the social outcasts is idiotic. The only thing it shows is that some people never really grow up, and still think being bigots and bullies is just fine - as long as it is some OTHER group that is the ones selected for their hate.
I am very happy that this has become much more of an issue in US society at least (well, it is here in suburbia New York), and that finally adults are realizing that kids bullying one another is not just "kids being kids" - or rather, it IS kids being kids, but it is incredibly destructive and should not be tolerated. It might be the one positive that came out of Columbine, even though nobody will come right out and say it.
Agreed on all counts.
I moved around constantly, so was the "new kid" a lot. This resulted in some bullying, but I was generally kind of big for my age, and pretty quickly developed a strategy for dealing with it - basically over-react to the first person screwing with me, and they tend to move along to an easier target.
This strategy backfired when I moved to Steele Elementary in Tucson in 5th grade. First day in the library, some kid came up behind me and did that "fake spit" thing where you blow air at someone, and I turned around and shoved him. This resulted in a challenge at the park after school. I showed up (the last thing you can do is NOT show up for something like that) and as I am walking towards the appointed location for my showdown with Mark, I see this huge group of kids all standing around waiting to watch. Another kid, comes up to me as I am walking over and tells me the kid I am about to fight gets in fights all the time, and never loses.
So yeah, this isn't looking good. But I square up and walk up, and the standard pushing/name calling/whatever ensues. Eventually I take a swing, and it is on.
Fucking kid was like some kind of amateur boxer or something. He kicked the shit out of me. But I am kind of stupid and stubborn when I get mad, so every time he nails me, I get back up. I get my share in as well, but it is by no means an even fight. Eventually he is telling me to stop, and pretty soon just about everyone is telling me to stop, but yeah, like I said, stupid and stubborn, so I keep getting up and going after him. He actually turned around and tried to walk away after knocking me down for the 3rd? 4th? time, but I got up and tackled him.
Eventually a teacher shows up to see what this big crowd of kids is doing, and everyone takes off. I come to school the next day looking like I got hit by a car, and Mark isn't looking much better. We get called into the principals office separately and then together, but neither of us will admit to anything, so it never really goes anywhere.
Mark wants to be my friend after that, and I play along enough to get him and his buddies to leave me alone, but I still think he was a fucking asshole. I wasn't the first kid he fought with, nor the last. He liked to fight, he was good at it, and he used his reputation to treat kids who would not tolerate getting their asses kicked like complete shit. Him and his friends were contemptible, and I don't think it taught anyone anything good, and plenty bad.
I got pretty good at dealing with bullies, but I wish I had been better at protecting other kids who were bullied. Watching some kid cry as some other kid just fucking humiliates him sucks. I hate bullies.
Actually, one caveat to my story. You know who I hated a lot more than Mark?
All his asshole posse who went around with him tormenting kids as part of their little "pack" of assholes. Marty wants to talk about pussies? Mark was a bully and a prick, but at least he was willing to put his ass on the line if someone stood up to him. his little friends who just ganged up (and by this I mean verbally, not physically - Mark was the enforcer and could handle any physical confrontation without assistance) on whoever they liked where the real losers. What did this bullying teach them that is so useful? Good thing they were not "pussified"!
I am sure later on in college when they beat the shit out of some fag, Marty and other people who think bullying should be tolerated would be blaming the gay guy for going to some pussy school where he didn't learn how to deal with it...?
Ahh, the bully sycophants. They always amused me. You could always get their goat by calling them a fag.
LOL looks like my comments struck a nerve with Berkut. :lol:
In my elementary school there was this strong teacher guy. When two guys were fighting, he took them apart, bitchslapped both, and that was it.
It was a simpler world :sleep:
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 09:40:50 AM
LOL looks like my comments struck a nerve with Berkut. :lol:
Perhaps. I really do despise bullies, and what is worse than bullies (who, lets be honest, are mostly just kids who do not know any better) are adults who condone and encourage it.
Combined with your well known hypocrisy, your position on bullying is really quite contemptible. It is, sadly, not surprising though.
I hate to say it, but Mart has a semi-valid point :ph34r:
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 09:59:32 AM
Perhaps. I really do despise bullies, and what is worse than bullies (who, lets be honest, are mostly just kids who do not know any better) are adults who condone and encourage it.
Agreed. People who claim that bullying should be tolerated as good 'character development' training or something should probably understand why listeners conclude that they are pinheads.
QuoteCombined with your well known hypocrisy, your position on bullying is really quite contemptible.
Disagree. It would be contemptible even if Marti was not a notorious hypocrite.
Quote from: derspiess on March 16, 2011, 10:45:12 AM
I hate to say it, but Mart has a semi-valid point :ph34r:
That we should beat up fags in school so they learn their proper place in society? Agreed.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 10:50:01 AM
That we should beat up fags in school so they learn their proper place in society? Agreed.
I don't really get what that would do. School life is so different from real life.
Quote from: garbon on March 16, 2011, 10:51:33 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 10:50:01 AM
That we should beat up fags in school so they learn their proper place in society? Agreed.
I don't really get what that would do. School life is so different from real life.
It is, and special conditions need to be applied, but I think teaching children that violence in a civil setting isn't acceptable is rather important.
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
That bullying is a useful way to strengthen the majority group at the expense of the victims is a theory I've seen voiced quite often and I'm not sure it's so easily dismissed without resorting to emotional arguments.
I think it's evident (granted, by way of anecdotal evidence) that bullying will in some cases strengthen the victims (although at what long-term psychological cost?) and in other cases cause life-long trauma or at worst completely destroy them. At the same time it comes off as pretty obnoxious to suggest this would somehow be a condition that should be encouraged in order to create a climate of competitiveness.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 10:53:14 AM
It is, and special conditions need to be applied, but I think teaching children that violence in a civil setting isn't acceptable is rather important.
Oh I certainly agree.
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
People must work in a very different kind of environment than those I've been exposed to - I don't think I've ever been exposed to anything that would constitute bullying at any job I've worked at. In fact, I am pretty sure anyone threatening anyone else with violence would be very quickly fired.
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
People must work in a very different kind of environment than those I've been exposed to - I don't think I've ever been exposed to anything that would constitute bullying at any job I've worked at. In fact, I am pretty sure anyone threatening anyone else with violence would be very quickly fired.
One of the very few people at my work who I know of being fired was fired for a confrontation that happened away from work, during happy hour. Once the rumors got to the manager, the instigator was gone.
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 08:59:36 AM
and pretty quickly developed a strategy for dealing with it - basically over-react to the first person screwing with me
:yeahright:
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 01:02:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 08:59:36 AM
and pretty quickly developed a strategy for dealing with it - basically over-react to the first person screwing with me
:yeahright:
I am not claiming it was the *right* way to deal with it, just that it worked. Until it got my ass kicked - but that kind of worked too.
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
People must work in a very different kind of environment than those I've been exposed to - I don't think I've ever been exposed to anything that would constitute bullying at any job I've worked at. In fact, I am pretty sure anyone threatening anyone else with violence would be very quickly fired.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing.
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
People must work in a very different kind of environment than those I've been exposed to - I don't think I've ever been exposed to anything that would constitute bullying at any job I've worked at. In fact, I am pretty sure anyone threatening anyone else with violence would be very quickly fired.
We're obviously working from different definitions. Isn't there an american catch all phrase for both verbal and physical harassment?
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 01:20:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
People must work in a very different kind of environment than those I've been exposed to - I don't think I've ever been exposed to anything that would constitute bullying at any job I've worked at. In fact, I am pretty sure anyone threatening anyone else with violence would be very quickly fired.
We're obviously working from different definitions. Isn't there an american catch all phrase for both verbal and physical harassment?
I don't think I've ever worked anywhere where verbal harassment to the extent that it could be called "bullying" is tolerated either. But maybe we do mean different things...
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 01:20:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
People must work in a very different kind of environment than those I've been exposed to - I don't think I've ever been exposed to anything that would constitute bullying at any job I've worked at. In fact, I am pretty sure anyone threatening anyone else with violence would be very quickly fired.
We're obviously working from different definitions. Isn't there an american catch all phrase for both verbal and physical harassment?
I don't think I've ever worked anywhere where verbal harassment to the extent that it could be called "bullying" is tolerated either. But maybe we do mean different things...
It's a common problem in health care in both Sweden and Norway. Primarily in female-dominated workplaces I think.
Actually, I would say I see verbal bullying while officiating...I am often surprised how much some people are willing to put up with...
Quote from: Berkut on March 16, 2011, 01:30:16 PM
Actually, I would say I see verbal bullying while officiating...I am often surprised how much some people are willing to put up with...
Well, duh... if you wear a striped shirt you get to bully all you want.
:P
Yeah, the Scandinavian understanding of bullying is a bit different than what I think Americans, Canadians and Brits mean when they talk of bullying.
When the Anglosphere speak of bullying, there seems to be more emphasis on violence part of the interaction. The "classic scenario" as it were seems to centre around one or two mean people with a coterie sycophants picking on a victim, escalating to violence to back up their dominance.
In Scandinavia (and I think in Japan too) the fundamental dynamic is understood to be less about the violence per se (not to say that there's no violence or even less violence) and more about being excluded from the social group. The classic bullying scenario is the one where "everyone in the class" continually derides the victim and almost compete amongst themselves in coming up with creative ways to humiliate them; it can involve violence but doesn't have to. The main thing is to never let the victim forget that "you're not one of us."
It might have something to do with the relatively more homogenous society and slightly more collectivist inclinations in Scandinavia, that social exclusion is more at the fore.
My point is that the kind of thing a Scandinavian tends to think of first when speaking of bullying - the repeated subtle and not so subtle ways that members of the group cut out and pick on one mutally agreed victim - carries over more easily to the adult workplace than the Anglo conception of bullying which I think is more along the lines of "I'm going to socially and physically demean you and you're going to take it because if you don't I'll beat you up out by the bike racks."
In Scandinavia, at least in my experience, the "beat you up bully" is more likely to find himself the target of bullying as the peer group as a whole decides they're unacceptable. This doesn't mean less bullying, however, nor solves the problem of the socially weak kid being bullied.
In school fights pinning someone down or giving them bloody noses would usually suffice. Except that one time when I beat semi-unconscious Mr. Big with his own drink bottle.
I dunno. Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind. That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.
@Jacob: from my experience in American and British schools, verbal bullying was very much considered equivalent to violent bullying.
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2011, 01:45:58 PM
In Scandinavia (and I think in Japan too) the fundamental dynamic is understood to be less about the violence per se (not to say that there's no violence or even less violence) and more about being excluded from the social group. The classic bullying scenario is the one where "everyone in the class" continually derides the victim and almost compete amongst themselves in coming up with creative ways to humiliate them; it can involve violence but doesn't have to. The main thing is to never let the victim forget that "you're not one of us."
Hey, that sort of sounds like the way we Languishistas treat each other continually. Especially when it comes to Slargos. :P
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 01:57:33 PM
I dunno. Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind. That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.
What places dd you work in where you actually saw or suffered from bullying?
"Verbal bullying" is so much in the eyes of the beholder that I am not sure what confidence to place in anecdotes about it. I have never worked in a place that condoned any kind of unprofessional behavior, but I can well believe that non-professional work places see it a fair amount.
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2011, 01:45:58 PM
In Scandinavia (and I think in Japan too) the fundamental dynamic is understood to be less about the violence per se (not to say that there's no violence or even less violence) and more about being excluded from the social group. The classic bullying scenario is the one where "everyone in the class" continually derides the victim and almost compete amongst themselves in coming up with creative ways to humiliate them; it can involve violence but doesn't have to. The main thing is to never let the victim forget that "you're not one of us."
This is called "cliquishness" in the US, as far as I know, and isn't considered at all the equivalent of bullying. It is considered fairly normal in Middle School, though certainly actively discouraged. It isn't clear to me how prevalent it remains in big US high schools; reports I hear from students differ on the subject.
Quote from: Malthus on March 16, 2011, 02:12:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2011, 01:45:58 PM
In Scandinavia (and I think in Japan too) the fundamental dynamic is understood to be less about the violence per se (not to say that there's no violence or even less violence) and more about being excluded from the social group. The classic bullying scenario is the one where "everyone in the class" continually derides the victim and almost compete amongst themselves in coming up with creative ways to humiliate them; it can involve violence but doesn't have to. The main thing is to never let the victim forget that "you're not one of us."
Hey, that sort of sounds like the way we Languishistas treat each other continually. Especially when it comes to Slargos. :P
Thankfully, I don't
feel bullied here so you get a pass. I will agree that Languish is a very dysfunctional society, however. :D
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 02:37:26 PM
Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass.
Clearly, we aren't doing our job properly. :(
:P
Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2011, 02:20:52 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 01:57:33 PM
I dunno. Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind. That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.
What places dd you work in where you actually saw or suffered from bullying?
"Verbal bullying" is so much in the eyes of the beholder that I am not sure what confidence to place in anecdotes about it. I have never worked in a place that condoned any kind of unprofessional behavior, but I can well believe that non-professional work places see it a fair amount.
I've never really suffered it to any real extent myself, but I've had friends who have. Typically it revolves around getting a "no smoke without fire" type situation going by gossip, exaggerations and outright lies.
Get enough of it circulating and it doesn't matter who did what, the victim will get stepped on. If she's additionally a temp it's much easier to get rid of her rather than sort out a rotten corporate culture.
I would possibly guess that this is a uniquely scandinavian problem partly for the reasons that Jacob already listed and because there is very strong job security for employees in the public sector and there's no real repercussions for the kind of harassment we're talking about here.
At one point a friend of mine discovered his boss was stealing narcotics, and was instead himself accused of the same and "fired" (IE no contract renewal).
I've seen a lot of this type of thing during my years working for temp agencies. It's pretty ugly and Norwegians excel at it.
Quote from: merithyn on March 16, 2011, 08:26:30 AM
Honestly, I think there's truth in what Marti says... for his generation. When I was a child, there were a few kids who were bullied occasionally at school. Their lives were difficult, but they did learn to fight back, stay unseen, or how to make friends with people who could and would defend them. Most of those kids I've run into as an adult and they are fairly successful over all, though they despise talking about our youth. Those who were horribly bullied committed suicide early on. So in a Darwinian sense, he's correct.
What Marti fails to understand is that today's bullies are not yesterdays. Bullying seems to have become almost systematized. It's not just one or two bullies picking on one or two kids. There are whole groups of kids (boys and girls alike) who choose a single person to destroy. They take a dislike to them for some unknown reason, and then set out to destroy every aspect of their lives at school, at home, in public. Like Valdemar says, it can now easily go global in a matter of moments. It invades every aspect of their lives. And while some of you may say that the kids should just ignore it, that's an adult speaking.
For kids, everything is the Here and Now. In other words, the reason we, as adults, can blow that kind of stuff off is because we know that in a few days (or weeks) something new will come along and our stuff will be forgotten. For kids, what happens Right Here and Right Now is FOREVER. They haven't yet gotten the concept of time down. I mean, sure, they can tell time, but the idea that what's happening now isn't going to be the same tomorrow hasn't quite penetrated for them. And, as Valdemar has said, there is no escape.
This is one of those areas that was horrible when we were kids, and has only gotten worse. And quite frankly, I'm not willing to offer up any children to the Darwinian theory simply because it's easier than dealing with the problem at its root.
Well, that could be right. I am just wondering if today the situation is really that worse or is this another of "kids these days" attitudes.
I guess with internet, youtube and mobile cameras, there is a greater potential for humiliating people, admittedly. But then I am not sure if this is really worse in terms of violence and stuff like that.
Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2011, 02:20:52 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 01:57:33 PM
I dunno. Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind. That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.
What places dd you work in where you actually saw or suffered from bullying?
Well, my quote said that I encountered *material* on it - i.e. mostly HR handouts and seminars and the like that people generally pay little attention to. This occured when I was / am working in labour relations.
But in fact, I have witnessed mild verbal bullying before at my first 'real job' after graduation. Nothing too egregious, just some rather condescending language. For example, one of my colleagues called the victim "an odd little man" to his face for no reason in particular.
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.
That bullying is a useful way to strengthen the majority group at the expense of the victims is a theory I've seen voiced quite often and I'm not sure it's so easily dismissed without resorting to emotional arguments.
I think it's evident (granted, by way of anecdotal evidence) that bullying will in some cases strengthen the victims (although at what long-term psychological cost?) and in other cases cause life-long trauma or at worst completely destroy them. At the same time it comes off as pretty obnoxious to suggest this would somehow be a condition that should be encouraged in order to create a climate of competitiveness.
I never said bullying should be encouraged. I am not advocating some kind of Lord of Flies attitude, but at the same time I am questioning the extreme "zero tolerance" policy that a lot of people here seem to embrace wholeheartedly.
I think a school should step in when there is an actual violence involved. What I hate is where this modern attitude is leading - to putting kids in jail because they post a mean remark about someone on Facebook. I think teaching kids how to deal with verbal abuse/attack - whether by conforming or for growing a pair of balls - without an adult stepping in is a valid lesson.
And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:
"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.
Regards,"
And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.
So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:11:39 PM
And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:
"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.
Regards,"
And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.
So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.
Where was the bullying there? I did not see one abusive statement in the entire e-mail.
Besides breaking down and crying when people are mean to you is certainly of those 'lessons' a girl might learn from school bullying :P
Now you look like a monster
Quote from: Valmy on March 16, 2011, 03:14:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:11:39 PM
And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:
"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.
Regards,"
And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.
So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.
Where was the bullying there? I did not see one abusive statement in the entire e-mail.
Maybe if she was actually bullied at school, she would have grown thick skin enough not to be brought to tears by criticism then?
My theory is that kids these days commit suicide from bullying not because bullies have grown so worse, but because thanks to helicopter parents and the like, kids are just fucking soft and are not accustomed to any form of negativity in their lives.
On a side note, what's up with women crying in professional situations when they screw up something or are criticised or anything? That's as unprofessional as a guy punching someone, imo.
Quote from: Valmy on March 16, 2011, 03:14:55 PM
Now you look like a monster
Yeah, and I hate it. My boss is much more abusive/mean and I lived through it without crying or anything. But the generation that is moving into professional life today comes from these privileged backgrounds and have completely wrong attitudes.
Also, I only had 5 people fired in 11 years of my professional career, so I'm pretty lenient. :P
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:21:09 PM
[Maybe if she was actually bullied at school, she would have grown thick skin enough not to be brought to tears by criticism then?
My theory is that kids these days commit suicide from bullying not because bullies have grown so worse, but because thanks to helicopter parents and the like, kids are just fucking soft and are not accustomed to any form of negativity in their lives.
On a side note, what's up with women crying in professional situations when they screw up something or are criticised or anything? That's as unprofessional as a guy punching someone, imo.
My theory is that kids have always been committing suicide for bullying and abuse we just know about it alot more now. Kids are not any softer than they were back in the day. I think learning how to deal with jerks is an important skill...but back when I was in school it was not like it was doled out in equal doses where everybody could profit it was systematically and constantly applied to the same people and they would be ganged up on by everybody. I do not think that is healthy or useful for anybody. I have no reason to think it was any different in days past or today.
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:11:39 PM
And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:
"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.
Regards,"
And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.
So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.
Who hired a woman?
Quote from: Malthus on March 16, 2011, 02:42:27 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 02:37:26 PM
Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass.
Clearly, we aren't doing our job properly. :(
Slargos is too dumb to realize he's being bullied most of the time. :P
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 02:37:26 PM
Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass. I will agree that Languish is a very dysfunctional society, however. :D
We put the "Fun" in dysfunctional. :)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 16, 2011, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 16, 2011, 02:42:27 PM
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 02:37:26 PM
Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass.
Clearly, we aren't doing our job properly. :(
Slargos is too dumb to realize he's being bullied most of the time. :P
You've never been clever enough to make it worth my while. :hug:
Languish in many ways is like a high school environment. The people we bully are generally the people perceived as stupid: Martinus, Strix, etc.
I don't bully.
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:21:09 PM
On a side note, what's up with women crying in professional situations when they screw up something or are criticised or anything? That's as unprofessional as a guy punching someone, imo.
I am forced to at least partially agree with Martinus here. Someone crying on the job due to criticism or inability to do the job is simply bizarre behavior. It is not, however, as unprofessional as physical violence (but, then we know Martinus' lack of skill with analogies well enough by now).
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 03:40:49 PM
Languish in many ways is like a high school environment. The people we bully are generally the people perceived as stupid: Martinus, Strix, etc.
I am not bullied here. I'm liked by most. :ph34r:
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:46:07 PM
I am not bullied here. I'm liked by most.
Bullied and delusional. :(
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 03:46:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:46:07 PM
I am not bullied here. I'm liked by most.
Bullied and delusional. :(
Hmm. Maybe I was bullied at school too, just didn't notice. :unsure:
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 03:45:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2011, 03:21:09 PM
On a side note, what's up with women crying in professional situations when they screw up something or are criticised or anything? That's as unprofessional as a guy punching someone, imo.
I am forced to at least partially agree with Martinus here. Someone crying on the job due to criticism or inability to do the job is simply bizarre behavior. It is not, however, as unprofessional as physical violence (but, then we know Martinus' lack of skill with analogies well enough by now).
The only bizarre thing here is the seeming inability to understand emotion. Fits the Languish profile, though.
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 03:40:49 PM
Languish in many ways is like a high school environment. The people we bully are generally the people perceived as stupid: Martinus, Strix, etc.
Heh - I know I made the comparison, but in jest. The essence of bullying, seems to me, is that there exists a well-defined and hierarchical "in group" which reinforces itself by violence or abuse directed against individual outcasts. Here, no such "in group" exists, and there is no-one immune to having abuse directed against them. ;) Often, the more hectoring and abusive a tone taken by someone, the more they get it back in spades.
The few whites on the forum are constantly bullying the brown masses.
Quote from: The Brain on March 16, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
The few whites on the forum are constantly bullying the brown masses.
:hmm: Are Southerners whites?
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 03:56:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 16, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
The few whites on the forum are constantly bullying the brown masses.
:hmm: Are Southerners whites?
If Caliga is any measure... :hmm:
And by "..." I mean "no".
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 04:08:32 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 03:56:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 16, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
The few whites on the forum are constantly bullying the brown masses.
:hmm: Are Southerners whites?
If Caliga is any measure... :hmm:
And by "..." I mean "no".
Caliga is a damnyankee, so...
Quote from: Slargos on March 16, 2011, 04:08:32 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 03:56:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 16, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
The few whites on the forum are constantly bullying the brown masses.
:hmm: Are Southerners whites?
If Caliga is any measure... :hmm:
And by "..." I mean "no".
Caliga's pretty white, but I'm Hispanic.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 16, 2011, 03:56:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 16, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
The few whites on the forum are constantly bullying the brown masses.
:hmm: Are Southerners whites?
Despite what some racists think, no race is perfect. :(
Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2011, 02:25:30 PMThis is called "cliquishness" in the US, as far as I know, and isn't considered at all the equivalent of bullying. It is considered fairly normal in Middle School, though certainly actively discouraged. It isn't clear to me how prevalent it remains in big US high schools; reports I hear from students differ on the subject.
It's a different thing than cliques, I think, at least as I understand them. It's about picking on one person very intently, not about different social groups disliking each other.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 16, 2011, 05:18:23 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 04:01:19 AM
That's a stupid mantra. Public humiliation that all your immature peers know about is nothing to scoff at, I'll take a couple of broken non-critical bones over that.
Public humiliation is only as painful as you let it be.
It only matters if you give a shit what other people think. Most languishites would be immune.
Seriously, I got bullied some in school. Taunting or trying to embarass me never bothered me a much, 'cause I really don't much care what people think of me. To be honest, physical attacks never bothered me that much, either, because I always felt I could take care of myself if I needed to. What really bothered me was when someone tried to steal or vandalize my stuff.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 16, 2011, 04:30:49 PM
Caliga's pretty white, but I'm Hispanic.
Caliga is extremely white. However, that'll change soon enough once Caliga starts taking his boat out and going fishing. :cool:
Not caring what other people think is fine if you're a Unabomber. For those who have a desire for social life, though, being made an outcast can be quite damaging.
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 07:52:33 PM
Not caring what other people think is fine if you're a Unabomber.
How would you know this...unless you yourself are the Unabomber! :o
DGuller, shame on you for framing that poor Mr. Kaczynski.
Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2011, 07:52:33 PM
Not caring what other people think is fine if you're a Unabomber. For those who have a desire for social life, though, being made an outcast can be quite damaging.
Eh, you get used to it.
Quote from: Caliga on March 16, 2011, 07:05:38 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 16, 2011, 04:30:49 PM
Caliga's pretty white, but I'm Hispanic.
Caliga is extremely white. However, that'll change soon enough once Caliga starts taking his boat out and going fishing. :cool:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2011, 06:20:26 PM
It's a different thing than cliques, I think, at least as I understand them. It's about picking on one person very intently, not about different social groups disliking each other.
It's all about dominance and submission play, but here totally non-consensual. The bully picks on the target because it cannot or is unwilling to stand his ground and retaliate, or lacks the social savyyness to make a network to support him. He is weak, the bully feels the fear, and with each picking on it confirms more and and more his dominance not only in the bullied's eyes, but also the peers.
The problem is, most times the target is encouraged not to defend himself or to find support in numbers through friends. Rather he is taught to be self-conscious about the others' - even the bully's - feelings. Alas, both family and school structures are badly, badly, badly equiped to deal with bullying.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 16, 2011, 02:54:56 PM
But in fact, I have witnessed mild verbal bullying before at my first 'real job' after graduation. Nothing too egregious, just some rather condescending language. For example, one of my colleagues called the victim "an odd little man" to his face for no reason in particular.
Kinda what I expected - what we have here is a different use of the word "bullying" from what I understand it to mean.
Being condescending isn't bullying, it's simply displaying a higher status. People do it all the time.
Bullying is harassing someone to make his life miserable because he is lower status, either to feel good about oneself or for the lulz.
Who asked for the seduction community's view?
Quote from: The Brain on March 17, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
Who asked for the seduction community's view?
Din mor. She just asked me. *puffs from his pipe* :cool:
Quote from: Drakken on March 17, 2011, 10:33:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 17, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
Who asked for the seduction community's view?
Din mor. She just asked me. *puffs from his pipe* :cool:
:hmm:
Thought the Brain took all jokes, even the worst ones. My disappointment is immense. :console:
In any case, bullying is much more than just being an ass, it's being an ass with the deliberate objective to hurt.
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2011, 06:20:26 PM
It's a different thing than cliques, I think, at least as I understand them. It's about picking on one person very intently, not about different social groups disliking each other.
Again, this is a language difference. Everywhere I have been in the US, cliquishness exists when a group of people think they are superior to others because they are members of that group. You don't need two groups to have a clique, unlike what you describe.
So, some of what you would call bullying I would call cliquishness.
Fair enough.
Here's a scenario:
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch, spread rumours about her being a slut; send her text messages calling her worthless; troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence; occasionally steal her homework and personal effects; react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter; and compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl.
You'd consider that cliqueishness rather than bullying? I mean, not that it matters what label we put on the behavior other than for clarity of communication.
In Scandinavia, the above scenario would be considered bullying. If actual violence was used by the girls against their victim, it'd still be considered bullying. The violence would of course be a very bad thing, but it would simply be considered one of many behaviours used to bully the victims (and one of the easier ones to deal with) rather than the line that divided bullying from a different sort of behaviour.
So when you hear people in Scandinavia speaking about work-place bullying (and no, I've never worked in a place where that happened either) that's what they mean, not someone punching someone or other physical stuff.
In short: yeah, language difference.
Nobody attacked me on facebook when I was in High school :)
Quote from: Jacob on March 17, 2011, 01:19:34 PM
Fair enough.
Here's a scenario:
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch, spread rumours about her being a slut; send her text messages calling her worthless; troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence; occasionally steal her homework and personal effects; react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter; and compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl.
You'd consider that cliqueishness rather than bullying? I mean, not that it matters what label we put on the behavior other than for clarity of communication.
No, I wouldn't. That's is bullying, which is my point. Even if the girl was part of another group, this would be bullying.
In your first scenario, where the interaction is "more about being excluded from the social group," is what i would call "cliquishness." Your second scenario, where the interaction is more about harming the other person than about making sure they know they aren't in your group, is bullying.
QuoteIn short: yeah, language difference.
:yes: I think English-speakers are used to having a bigger vocabulary with more precise distinctions.
Ah... that was just me expressing myself poorly, then. When I said "being excluded from the social group" I was thinking of that active and malicious exclusion that we both agree is bullying, not just the garden variety "you don't get invited to our activity/ party because we're not really friends."
Quote from: grumbler on March 17, 2011, 01:43:52 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 17, 2011, 01:19:34 PM
Fair enough.
Here's a scenario:
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch, spread rumours about her being a slut; send her text messages calling her worthless; troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence; occasionally steal her homework and personal effects; react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter; and compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl.
You'd consider that cliqueishness rather than bullying? I mean, not that it matters what label we put on the behavior other than for clarity of communication.
No, I wouldn't. That's is bullying, which is my point. Even if the girl was part of another group, this would be bullying.
In your first scenario, where the interaction is "more about being excluded from the social group," is what i would call "cliquishness." Your second scenario, where the interaction is more about harming the other person than about making sure they know they aren't in your group, is bullying.
QuoteIn short: yeah, language difference.
:yes: I think English-speakers are used to having a bigger vocabulary with more precise distinctions.
So you just used the term "bullying" for both physical and verbal harassment out of sloth?
Quote from: Drakken on March 17, 2011, 10:03:53 AM
Quote from: Jacob on March 16, 2011, 06:20:26 PM
It's a different thing than cliques, I think, at least as I understand them. It's about picking on one person very intently, not about different social groups disliking each other.
It's all about dominance and submission play, but here totally non-consensual. The bully picks on the target because it cannot or is unwilling to stand his ground and retaliate, or lacks the social savyyness to make a network to support him. He is weak, the bully feels the fear, and with each picking on it confirms more and and more his dominance not only in the bullied's eyes, but also the peers.
The problem is, most times the target is encouraged not to defend himself or to find support in numbers through friends. Rather he is taught to be self-conscious about the others' - even the bully's - feelings. Alas, both family and school structures are badly, badly, badly equiped to deal with bullying.
To be honest, the kind of
consensual "bully" set-up is pretty hot. :blush:
Wonder if I like it because I was never really bullied and was always a bit of a "golden boy". :unsure:
Quote from: Jacob on March 17, 2011, 01:19:34 PM
Fair enough.
Here's a scenario:
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch, spread rumours about her being a slut; send her text messages calling her worthless; troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence; occasionally steal her homework and personal effects; react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter; and compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl.
You'd consider that cliqueishness rather than bullying? I mean, not that it matters what label we put on the behavior other than for clarity of communication.
In Scandinavia, the above scenario would be considered bullying. If actual violence was used by the girls against their victim, it'd still be considered bullying. The violence would of course be a very bad thing, but it would simply be considered one of many behaviours used to bully the victims (and one of the easier ones to deal with) rather than the line that divided bullying from a different sort of behaviour.
So when you hear people in Scandinavia speaking about work-place bullying (and no, I've never worked in a place where that happened either) that's what they mean, not someone punching someone or other physical stuff.
In short: yeah, language difference.
The thing is, the behaviors you describe range from quite reprehensible to something that it would be totally ridiculous to ban/prevent. E.g.
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch - would that be punishable in Scandinavia schools? :huh:
spread rumours about her being a slut - probably bad but hardly actionable
send her text messages calling her worthless - a bit more actionable
troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence - so?
occasionally steal her homework and personal effects - actionable/bannable
react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter - depends on the type of insults, but barring big ones, hardly actionable
compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl - depends on the extent.
The problem is, with bullying defined as such as you get into the ridiculous area we got over the years with "fascism" and "genocide" - people stop taking these terms seriously anymore, because everything is dubbed thus.
The Street Fighter version of the video:
http://kotaku.com/#!5782603/casey-the-bully+breaking-zangief-kid-gets-the-street-fighter-remix-he-deserves
Even though like Berk i moved around a lot , only really had one kid try to bully me in 7th grade, he stopped when i knocked him on his ass.
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2011, 05:00:04 PM
The problem is, with bullying defined as such as you get into the ridiculous area we got over the years with "fascism" and "genocide" - people stop taking these terms seriously anymore, because everything is dubbed thus.
Sometimes it's hard to say where your schtick ends and your stupid begins.
When a fag is beaten to death by a mob of skinheads, should we perhaps treat every blow individually and determine that they really aren't that serious and that the death was an accident given that the fag was already in a weakened state when the last blow landed?
I mean, painting the individual blows like they were part of a determined beating is really going to weaken the definition of a determined beating since people just won't take it seriously any more.
Mother of the bully demands an apology. I'd tell her to fuck off if I was that kid's parents.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/17/mother-australian-bully-body-slammed-video-demands-apology-victim/
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2011, 05:00:04 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 17, 2011, 01:19:34 PM
Fair enough.
Here's a scenario:
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch, spread rumours about her being a slut; send her text messages calling her worthless; troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence; occasionally steal her homework and personal effects; react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter; and compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl.
You'd consider that cliqueishness rather than bullying? I mean, not that it matters what label we put on the behavior other than for clarity of communication.
In Scandinavia, the above scenario would be considered bullying. If actual violence was used by the girls against their victim, it'd still be considered bullying. The violence would of course be a very bad thing, but it would simply be considered one of many behaviours used to bully the victims (and one of the easier ones to deal with) rather than the line that divided bullying from a different sort of behaviour.
So when you hear people in Scandinavia speaking about work-place bullying (and no, I've never worked in a place where that happened either) that's what they mean, not someone punching someone or other physical stuff.
In short: yeah, language difference.
The thing is, the behaviors you describe range from quite reprehensible to something that it would be totally ridiculous to ban/prevent. E.g.
All (or most of) the girls in a class refuse to sit with one girl at lunch - would that be punishable in Scandinavia schools? :huh:
spread rumours about her being a slut - probably bad but hardly actionable
send her text messages calling her worthless - a bit more actionable
troll her facebook/myspace/other online presence - so?
occasionally steal her homework and personal effects - actionable/bannable
react to everything she says and does with derision, insults and laughter - depends on the type of insults, but barring big ones, hardly actionable
compete amongst themselves to pull off minor pranks and humiliation targetted at that one girl - depends on the extent.
The problem is, with bullying defined as such as you get into the ridiculous area we got over the years with "fascism" and "genocide" - people stop taking these terms seriously anymore, because everything is dubbed thus.
I have this crazy mindset that stuff that I wouldn't accept at a workplace shouldn't be OK in school. I am prepared to cut kids some slack because kids will be kids etc, but not a lot.
But as a workplace bully you probably don't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
Annonymous has hacked the school website for suspending Casey.
:lol:
http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/03/17/hacktivist-group-takes-down-school-web-site-of-bullied-australian-kid/
Quote from: The Brain on March 18, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
I have this crazy mindset that stuff that I wouldn't accept at a workplace shouldn't be OK in school. I am prepared to cut kids some slack because kids will be kids etc, but not a lot.
But as a workplace bully you probably don't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
You mean your workplace does not tolerate if you do not want to share a dinner table with a colleague you dislike? Wow, do you work at Einsetzkommando Carebear?
And I guess your workplace tolerates finger painting, people being absent from work if they bring a note from their parents, and people getting up from their desks and mulling around corridors of the office every hour or so when the bell rings - since such things are tolerated at schools, and if they weren't tolerated at your work, they wouldn't at schools either.
In short: you = idiot.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:38:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 18, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
I have this crazy mindset that stuff that I wouldn't accept at a workplace shouldn't be OK in school. I am prepared to cut kids some slack because kids will be kids etc, but not a lot.
But as a workplace bully you probably don't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
You mean your workplace does not tolerate if you do not want to share a dinner table with a colleague you dislike? Wow, do you work at Einsetzkommando Carebear?
You think that'll make me cry? Try harder, I'm not one of your regular victims.
Quote from: The Brain on March 18, 2011, 02:41:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:38:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 18, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
I have this crazy mindset that stuff that I wouldn't accept at a workplace shouldn't be OK in school. I am prepared to cut kids some slack because kids will be kids etc, but not a lot.
But as a workplace bully you probably don't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
You mean your workplace does not tolerate if you do not want to share a dinner table with a colleague you dislike? Wow, do you work at Einsetzkommando Carebear?
You think that'll make me cry? Try harder, I'm not one of your regular victims.
I elaborated why you are an idiot after you quoted that.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:44:41 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 18, 2011, 02:41:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:38:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 18, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
I have this crazy mindset that stuff that I wouldn't accept at a workplace shouldn't be OK in school. I am prepared to cut kids some slack because kids will be kids etc, but not a lot.
But as a workplace bully you probably don't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
You mean your workplace does not tolerate if you do not want to share a dinner table with a colleague you dislike? Wow, do you work at Einsetzkommando Carebear?
You think that'll make me cry? Try harder, I'm not one of your regular victims.
I elaborated why you are an idiot after you quoted that.
Amazingly your post makes LESS sense after the edit. :wacko:
I will put it in simple terms for you: work environment != school environment. Things tolerated in one are not tolerated in the other, and vice-versa. Only a retard like you would expect kids in grad school to behave in the same way as adult employees in a corporation.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:51:05 AM
I will put it in simple terms for you: work environment != school environment. Things tolerated in one are not tolerated in the other, and vice-versa. Only a retard like you would expect kids in grad school to behave in the same way as adult employees in a corporation.
I'm a retard now? That hurts man. Still no tears though.
Quote from: Slargos on March 17, 2011, 05:10:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2011, 05:00:04 PM
The problem is, with bullying defined as such as you get into the ridiculous area we got over the years with "fascism" and "genocide" - people stop taking these terms seriously anymore, because everything is dubbed thus.
Sometimes it's hard to say where your schtick ends and your stupid begins.
When a fag is beaten to death by a mob of skinheads, should we perhaps treat every blow individually and determine that they really aren't that serious and that the death was an accident given that the fag was already in a weakened state when the last blow landed?
I mean, painting the individual blows like they were part of a determined beating is really going to weaken the definition of a determined beating since people just won't take it seriously any more.
Actually, that's quite an ignorant analogy, because in criminal prosecution this is exactly what would be analyzed. Depending on context, intent, outcome or even individual qualities of the perps (e.g. a perp who is a professional fighter can be treated as using his fists as a "dangerous weapon") etc. people could be charged with everything ranging from "participation in a fight" (with or without a dangerous weapon), battery, battery resulting in death, attempted murder or actual murder, and individual skinheads may actually end up being charged with different crimes, even though they beat up the same fag.
As to the point at hand, I am just wondering how all the "zero tolerance policy" idiots would treat what you say.
For example, if that meant the school tries to make the singled out girl not to feel shitty and try to integrate her somehow then it's fine. But if it meant that the school would tell the other girls that they have to sit with the singled out girl at a lunch table or they would be punished, then it would be pretty fucked up.
And for the record, I would wager that in 9 cases out of 10, there is a "personal background" element to bullying that should also be addressed and not ignored. This is not to say that the victim is to blame, but usually there are some conditions from that person's background (usually some failure on behalf of the parents) that make someone a victim.
Whether these are:
- crazy fundie parents who would kick their son out of their home for being gay and/or make him go to a fire and brimstone church that would tell him that being gay is a horrible sin for which he would burn for all eternity - which make him commit suicide if someone calls him a faggot or posts his gay profile online, or
- "busy" parents who move around a lot without taking time to help the kid integrate in new environment (it's not just the school's job!) - not to mention without much consideration for their kid's wellbeing and how frequent moves are going to affect him, or
- a girl who is laughed at because she smells funny and dresses in lousy clothes - because her alcoholic parents fail to take care of her properly and spend all the money on booze, or
- simply some moronic "helicopter parents" who think it's better to send the kid to piano, French, mandarin, swimming and astrophysics lessons from early age, rather than letting him or her have fun in the playground and learn to interact with other kids - effectively creating a conceited nerd with no social skills
there is very often some element that can be traced to parents.
It's very easy to blame stupid kid "bullies" in such a case but kids are stupid and they can't always process all the background stuff - the school should first and foremost address the background situation.
Edit: So I guess I can see now why I instinctively oppose the "zero tolerance policy" in its extreme form - because it's another of these examples where there is a pressure for other people to take responsibility for raising someone else's kids. Parents should have more obligations (and if they fail to perform them, e.g. by instilling their kid with some idiotic bronze age religious mania, they should have the kids taken away from them) and less rights, not vice versa.
Any society that freaks out if a teacher gives a kid a light smack on the ear for misbehaving in class, yet is fine with parents sending their kid to deeply psychologically damaging "Jesus camp" to "pray the gay away" is a fucked up one.
I think I have it.
Martinus is actually not a gay lawyer, but in fact an agent provocateur from the catholic church deep under cover with the express purpose of ensuring that the level of animosity towards polish faggots does not decrease further.
I'm a bit perturbed I didn't see it earlier.
Good job.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 03:03:43 AM
Quote from: Slargos on March 17, 2011, 05:10:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 17, 2011, 05:00:04 PM
The problem is, with bullying defined as such as you get into the ridiculous area we got over the years with "fascism" and "genocide" - people stop taking these terms seriously anymore, because everything is dubbed thus.
Sometimes it's hard to say where your schtick ends and your stupid begins.
When a fag is beaten to death by a mob of skinheads, should we perhaps treat every blow individually and determine that they really aren't that serious and that the death was an accident given that the fag was already in a weakened state when the last blow landed?
I mean, painting the individual blows like they were part of a determined beating is really going to weaken the definition of a determined beating since people just won't take it seriously any more.
Actually, that's quite an ignorant analogy, because in criminal prosecution this is exactly what would be analyzed. Depending on context, intent, outcome or even individual qualities of the perps (e.g. a perp who is a professional fighter can be treated as using his fists as a "dangerous weapon") etc. people could be charged with everything ranging from "participation in a fight" (with or without a dangerous weapon), battery, battery resulting in death, attempted murder or actual murder, and individual skinheads may actually end up being charged with different crimes, even though they beat up the same fag.
As to the point at hand, I am just wondering how all the "zero tolerance policy" idiots would treat what you say.
Actually, you have a decent point here, in that the trial of the police officers for beating Rodney King largely revolved around issues similar to this. In the original trial, there wasn't much dispute that King's behavior justified some use of force against him; the question was at what point, if any, individual blows amounted to excessive force.
QuoteAnd for the record, I would wager that in 9 cases out of 10, there is a "personal background" element to bullying that should also be addressed and not ignored. This is not to say that the victim is to blame, but usually there are some conditions from that person's background (usually some failure on behalf of the parents) that make someone a victim.
OTOH, this post is mostly nonsense. Are there "personal background" elements that lead to some kids being bullied? Yeah, but not the stuff in your post. The stuff that gets a kid targetted for bullying tends to be factors such as:
* wearing glasses
* liking to read
* not being very athletic
* actually doing well in class
* having different tastes in music and entertainment that the "popular" kids.
None of that really has much to do with the kid's parents, for the most part.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 03:12:49 AM
Any society that freaks out if a teacher gives a kid a light smack on the ear for misbehaving in class, yet is fine with parents sending their kid to deeply psychologically damaging "Jesus camp" to "pray the gay away" is a fucked up one.
Teachers are employees of the state and people are compelled by law to put their kids into that teachers care. If you are required to send your kid someplace I can see you not wanting your kid to not be abused either by other kids or teachers.
Parents sending their own kids to religious activities, on the other hand, is something most people do not care about. It is not their kids. But as you know there are people who DO have a large problem with kids being indoctrinated into their parents religion or suffer abuse for coming out as gay. After all you yourself seem to have a large problem with it. Which makes your contempt for people who care about the treatment their own children have in schools really bizarre...
But having said that I do not really get the zero tolerance policy but generally when you start throwing around terms like that the policy is probably idiotic.
Quote from: dps on March 18, 2011, 12:59:16 PM
OTOH, this post is mostly nonsense. Are there "personal background" elements that lead to some kids being bullied? Yeah, but not the stuff in your post. The stuff that gets a kid targetted for bullying tends to be factors such as:
* wearing glasses
* liking to read
* not being very athletic
* actually doing well in class
* having different tastes in music and entertainment that the "popular" kids.
None of that really has much to do with the kid's parents, for the most part.
Nonsense kids are entirely shaped by their parents and any issues the kid has are created by their parents. After all kids are not people with their own independent ideas and personalities but robots to be programed by parents.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2011, 02:15:22 AM
Mother of the bully demands an apology. I'd tell her to fuck off if I was that kid's parents.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/17/mother-australian-bully-body-slammed-video-demands-apology-victim/
I guess that's why you shouldn't trust Fox News. The actual exchange went like this:
Interviewer: Are you gonna get your son to apologise?
Bully's Mother: I would like him to apologise yes.
Also:
Interviewer: So what did you say to your son?
Bully's Mother: I had a lot to say to my son yesterday. I said he was wrong for what he'd done.
The actual interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76bj74rlo5E
What's next? Are you going to post articles on how salt is going protect us against nuclear fallout from Japan?
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:51:05 AM
Only a retard like you would expect kids in grad school to behave in the same way as adult employees in a corporation.
I don't think there are any kids in grad school, Marty. Grad students are usually in their mid 20s at their youngest, barring the occasional prodigy.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2011, 02:21:09 AM
Annonymous has hacked the school website for suspending Casey.
:lol:
http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/03/17/hacktivist-group-takes-down-school-web-site-of-bullied-australian-kid/
Does the CIA just not assassinate people anymore?
Quote from: Jacob on March 18, 2011, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:51:05 AM
Only a retard like you would expect kids in grad school to behave in the same way as adult employees in a corporation.
I don't think there are any kids in grad school, Marty. Grad students are usually in their mid 20s at their youngest, barring the occasional prodigy.
Oops. How do you call the pre-high school?
puberty hell.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 04:41:21 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 18, 2011, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:51:05 AM
Only a retard like you would expect kids in grad school to behave in the same way as adult employees in a corporation.
I don't think there are any kids in grad school, Marty. Grad students are usually in their mid 20s at their youngest, barring the occasional prodigy.
Oops. How do you call the pre-high school?
Grallon's meat market.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 04:41:21 PM
Oops. How do you call the pre-high school?
Middle school or junior high depending on location, also elementary school before that.
Grade school(which was what I figured you were going for) is not used often, but I think it blanket covers all of k-12.
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 04:41:21 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 18, 2011, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 18, 2011, 02:51:05 AM
Only a retard like you would expect kids in grad school to behave in the same way as adult employees in a corporation.
I don't think there are any kids in grad school, Marty. Grad students are usually in their mid 20s at their youngest, barring the occasional prodigy.
Oops. How do you call the pre-high school?
Kindergarten.
The bullied kid, the big kid, now has the usual TV interviews. I just saw a brief part of it shown on another channel.