School bully gets what he deserves

[grumbler]

I dunno.  Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind.  That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.

What places dd you work in where you actually saw or suffered from bullying?

"Verbal bullying" is so much in the eyes of the beholder that I am not sure what confidence to place in anecdotes about it.  I have never worked in a place that condoned any kind of unprofessional behavior, but I can well believe that non-professional work places see it a fair amount.

[grumbler]

In Scandinavia (and I think in Japan too) the fundamental dynamic is understood to be less about the violence per se (not to say that there's no violence or even less violence) and more about being excluded from the social group. The classic bullying scenario is the one where "everyone in the class" continually derides the victim and almost compete amongst themselves in coming up with creative ways to humiliate them; it can involve violence but doesn't have to. The main thing is to never let the victim forget that "you're not one of us."

This is called "cliquishness" in the US, as far as I know, and isn't considered at all the equivalent of bullying.  It is considered fairly normal in Middle School, though certainly actively discouraged. It isn't clear to me how prevalent it remains in big US high schools; reports I hear from students differ on the subject.

[Slargos]

In Scandinavia (and I think in Japan too) the fundamental dynamic is understood to be less about the violence per se (not to say that there's no violence or even less violence) and more about being excluded from the social group. The classic bullying scenario is the one where "everyone in the class" continually derides the victim and almost compete amongst themselves in coming up with creative ways to humiliate them; it can involve violence but doesn't have to. The main thing is to never let the victim forget that "you're not one of us."

Hey, that sort of sounds like the way we Languishistas treat each other continually. Especially when it comes to Slargos. 

Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass. I will agree that Languish is a very dysfunctional society, however. 

[Malthus]

Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass.

Clearly, we aren't doing our job properly. 

[Slargos]

I dunno.  Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind.  That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.

What places dd you work in where you actually saw or suffered from bullying?

"Verbal bullying" is so much in the eyes of the beholder that I am not sure what confidence to place in anecdotes about it.  I have never worked in a place that condoned any kind of unprofessional behavior, but I can well believe that non-professional work places see it a fair amount.

I've never really suffered it to any real extent myself, but I've had friends who have. Typically it revolves around getting a "no smoke without fire" type situation going by gossip, exaggerations and outright lies.

Get enough of it circulating and it doesn't matter who did what, the victim will get stepped on. If she's additionally a temp it's much easier to get rid of her rather than sort out a rotten corporate culture.

I would possibly guess that this is a uniquely scandinavian problem partly for the reasons that Jacob already listed and because there is very strong job security for employees in the public sector and there's no real repercussions for the kind of harassment we're talking about here.

At one point a friend of mine discovered his boss was stealing narcotics, and was instead himself accused of the same and "fired" (IE no contract renewal).

I've seen a lot of this type of thing during my years working for temp agencies. It's pretty ugly and Norwegians excel at it.

[Martinus]

Honestly, I think there's truth in what Marti says... for his generation. When I was a child, there were a few kids who were bullied occasionally at school. Their lives were difficult, but they did learn to fight back, stay unseen, or how to make friends with people who could and would defend them. Most of those kids I've run into as an adult and they are fairly successful over all, though they despise talking about our youth. Those who were horribly bullied committed suicide early on. So in a Darwinian sense, he's correct.

What Marti fails to understand is that today's bullies are not yesterdays. Bullying seems to have become almost systematized. It's not just one or two bullies picking on one or two kids. There are whole groups of kids (boys and girls alike) who choose a single person to destroy. They take a dislike to them for some unknown reason, and then set out to destroy every aspect of their lives at school, at home, in public. Like Valdemar says, it can now easily go global in a matter of moments. It invades every aspect of their lives. And while some of you may say that the kids should just ignore it, that's an adult speaking.

For kids, everything is the Here and Now. In other words, the reason we, as adults, can blow that kind of stuff off is because we know that in a few days (or weeks) something new will come along and our stuff will be forgotten. For kids, what happens Right Here and Right Now is FOREVER. They haven't yet gotten the concept of time down. I mean, sure, they can tell time, but the idea that what's happening now isn't going to be the same tomorrow hasn't quite penetrated for them. And, as Valdemar has said, there is no escape.

This is one of those areas that was horrible when we were kids, and has only gotten worse. And quite frankly, I'm not willing to offer up any children to the Darwinian theory simply because it's easier than dealing with the problem at its root.

Well, that could be right. I am just wondering if today the situation is really that worse or is this another of "kids these days" attitudes.

I guess with internet, youtube and mobile cameras, there is a greater potential for humiliating people, admittedly. But then I am not sure if this is really worse in terms of violence and stuff like that.

[Camerus]

I dunno.  Here in Canada I've definitely encountered a lot of material on "workplace bullying", and it mostly all dealt with the verbal kind.  That the physical kind was unacceptable was pretty much a given.

What places dd you work in where you actually saw or suffered from bullying?

Well, my quote said that I encountered *material* on it - i.e. mostly HR handouts and seminars and the like that people generally pay little attention to.  This occured when I was / am working in labour relations.

But in fact, I have witnessed mild verbal bullying before at my first 'real job' after graduation.  Nothing too egregious, just some rather condescending language. For example, one of my colleagues called the victim "an odd little man" to his face for no reason in particular.

[Martinus]

Bullying is inevitable. No matter what kind of draconian "zero tolerance" policies are enacted, bullying will always exist (not only in schools but also perhaps more importantly in workplaces) as long as we don't invent some sort of behavioural modification chip.

That bullying is a useful way to strengthen the majority group at the expense of the victims is a theory I've seen voiced quite often and I'm not sure it's so easily dismissed without resorting to emotional arguments.

I think it's evident (granted, by way of anecdotal evidence) that bullying will in some cases strengthen the victims (although at what long-term psychological cost?) and in other cases cause life-long trauma or at worst completely destroy them. At the same time it comes off as pretty obnoxious to suggest this would somehow be a condition that should be encouraged in order to create a climate of competitiveness.

I never said bullying should be encouraged. I am not advocating some kind of Lord of Flies attitude, but at the same time I am questioning the extreme "zero tolerance" policy that a lot of people here seem to embrace wholeheartedly.

I think a school should step in when there is an actual violence involved. What I hate is where this modern attitude is leading - to putting kids in jail because they post a mean remark about someone on Facebook. I think teaching kids how to deal with verbal abuse/attack - whether by conforming or for growing a pair of balls - without an adult stepping in is a valid lesson.

[Martinus]

And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:

"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.

Regards,"

And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.

So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.

[Valmy]

And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:

"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.

Regards,"

And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.

So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.

Where was the bullying there?  I did not see one abusive statement in the entire e-mail.

Besides breaking down and crying when people are mean to you is certainly of those 'lessons' a girl might learn from school bullying 

Now you look like a monster

[Martinus]

And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:

"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.

Regards,"

And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.

So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.

Where was the bullying there?  I did not see one abusive statement in the entire e-mail.

Maybe if she was actually bullied at school, she would have grown thick skin enough not to be brought to tears by criticism then?

My theory is that kids these days commit suicide from bullying not because bullies have grown so worse, but because thanks to helicopter parents and the like, kids are just fucking soft and are not accustomed to any form of negativity in their lives.

On a side note, what's up with women crying in professional situations when they screw up something or are criticised or anything? That's as unprofessional as a guy punching someone, imo.

[Martinus]

Now you look like a monster

Yeah, and I hate it. My boss is much more abusive/mean and I lived through it without crying or anything. But the generation that is moving into professional life today comes from these privileged backgrounds and have completely wrong attitudes.

Also, I only had 5 people fired in 11 years of my professional career, so I'm pretty lenient.

[Valmy]

[Maybe if she was actually bullied at school, she would have grown thick skin enough not to be brought to tears by criticism then?

My theory is that kids these days commit suicide from bullying not because bullies have grown so worse, but because thanks to helicopter parents and the like, kids are just fucking soft and are not accustomed to any form of negativity in their lives.

On a side note, what's up with women crying in professional situations when they screw up something or are criticised or anything? That's as unprofessional as a guy punching someone, imo.

My theory is that kids have always been committing suicide for bullying and abuse we just know about it alot more now.  Kids are not any softer than they were back in the day.  I think learning how to deal with jerks is an important skill...but back when I was in school it was not like it was doled out in equal doses where everybody could profit it was systematically and constantly applied to the same people and they would be ganged up on by everybody.  I do not think that is healthy or useful for anybody.  I have no reason to think it was any different in days past or today.

[The Brain]

And speaking of "verbal bullying", yesterday I got an email from a junior lawyer which was not what I originally asked for. I wrote her an e-mail saying exactly that:

"Please prepare a succinct e-mail summarizing this so I can forward this to the client, and have it reviewed by X [her supervisor]. You will find the missing data [which she said she does not have] in XYZ. Please don't treat me as your supervisor on this issue - X should review it, I'm expecting a final product of your analysis.

Regards,"

And I was later told that she broke into tears because I was so mean to her.

So again. GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS.

Who hired a woman?

[Eddie Teach]

Thankfully, I don't feel bullied here so you get a pass.

Clearly, we aren't doing our job properly. 

Slargos is too dumb to realize he's being bullied most of the time.