(https://i.cbc.ca/1.3854981.1479391613!/fileImage/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/original_620/machzikei-hadas-synagogue-ottawa-swastika-racist-nov-17-2016.JPG)
As it happens, that's my parents' synagogue, so that's pretty close to home for me. They live a few minutes walk away and go there pretty much weekly.
Seems like there's been a sudden surge in anti-Semitic and white supremacist activity this last week or so, including in Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/swastika-machzikei-hadas-synagogue-1.3854868
Nazis. :angry:
It's terrible. I hope they catch them quickly.
Morons. Flog them in the town square.
Quote from: JakeAs it happens, that's my parents' synagogue, so that's pretty close to home for me.
Wow, I'm sorry, Jake.
Though this is new information to me. Apparently, for the past eleven years, I thought your parents were ethnic Danes who lived in Denmark. Were you actually born in Canada and I just now learned this?
Mom and step dad ya ignorant yokel
Sorry to hear about this Jacob. :cry:
Sucks. Sorry Jake :(
Quote from: katmai on November 17, 2016, 04:17:58 PM
Mom and step dad ya ignorant yokel
Sorry. I clearly missed that part in the bios we all have on the front page. (Seriously, I feel bad for not having a clearer idea of Jake's personal history. Feels like I ought to, right?)
Quote from: Martinus on November 17, 2016, 03:21:18 PM
Morons. Flog them in the town square.
Sarcasm noted, fuckstick.
What the hell :(
:mad: :(
Quote from: Ideologue on November 17, 2016, 04:25:40 PM
Quote from: katmai on November 17, 2016, 04:17:58 PM
Mom and step dad ya ignorant yokel
Sorry. I clearly missed that part in the bios we all have on the front page. (Seriously, I feel bad for not having a clearer idea of Jake's personal history. Feels like I ought to, right?)
I've mentioned it a few times, but a long time ago. I was born in Denmark (single mom! not a big deal in Denmark!). Later my mom met a Canadian diplomat and eventually they got married and we moved to Canada (three days before starting high school in a foreign country, whee!). Step dad is Jewish, she converted. I have Jewish siblings.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on November 17, 2016, 04:39:15 PM
What the hell :(
Apparently the third such incident in about a week in Ottawa.
Quote from: Jacob on November 17, 2016, 04:45:25 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 17, 2016, 04:25:40 PM
Quote from: katmai on November 17, 2016, 04:17:58 PM
Mom and step dad ya ignorant yokel
Sorry. I clearly missed that part in the bios we all have on the front page. (Seriously, I feel bad for not having a clearer idea of Jake's personal history. Feels like I ought to, right?)
I've mentioned it a few times, but a long time ago. I was born in Denmark (single mom! not a big deal in Denmark!). Later my mom met a Canadian diplomat and eventually they got married and we moved to Canada (three days before starting high school in a foreign country, whee!). Step dad is Jewish, she converted. I have Jewish siblings.
Thanks for filling me in. :)
Of course, it's a really shitty context to learn it in.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 17, 2016, 04:55:23 PM
Thanks for filling me in. :)
:hug:
QuoteOf course, it's a really shitty context to learn it in.
Said my mom: "I was just talking to one of the other ladies about the horrible colour they picked for the new paintjob on the doors. Maybe this means we can get it repainted in a different colour."
Your mom's pretty cool, Jake. :hug:
Quote from: Ideologue on November 17, 2016, 05:11:48 PM
Your mom's pretty cool, Jake. :hug:
I think so too :cheers:
I have a friend who grew up with assholes spraying swastikas on her door in Chisinau. Her family moved away, but she didn't much like Israeli politics and ended up settling in Montreal. Now she's raising her own little girl, and this is on the news. :(
Quote from: Jacob on November 17, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 17, 2016, 04:55:23 PM
Thanks for filling me in. :)
:hug:
QuoteOf course, it's a really shitty context to learn it in.
Said my mom: "I was just talking to one of the other ladies about the horrible colour they picked for the new paintjob on the doors. Maybe this means we can get it repainted in a different colour."
Well, that's definitely looking for a sliver lining.
The incident is further proof (if we needed any) that there are assholes everywhere.
http://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/ottawa-police-investigate-three-incidents-targeting-jews
What happened to good old-fashioned paki bashing? :(
You need to catch them in the act and beat the living shit out of them. That is the Ed Anger way.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2016, 09:28:02 PM
You need to catch them in the act and beat the living shit out of them. That is the Ed Anger way.
I approve.
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2016, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2016, 09:28:02 PM
You need to catch them in the act and beat the living shit out of them. That is the Ed Anger way.
I approve.
Really, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2016, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2016, 09:28:02 PM
You need to catch them in the act and beat the living shit out of them. That is the Ed Anger way.
I approve.
Really, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
Have you met a leftist before? :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2016, 04:26:00 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2016, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2016, 09:28:02 PM
You need to catch them in the act and beat the living shit out of them. That is the Ed Anger way.
I approve.
Really, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
Have you met a leftist before? :huh:
Yes, some of my friends are leftist politicians. Lovely people.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
The validity of this assertion depends a lot on the timeframe we are talking about :ph34r:
Quote from: Monoriu on November 19, 2016, 09:25:54 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
The validity of this assertion depends a lot on the timeframe we are talking about :ph34r:
That's true of virtually any statement, Mr let's-pillage-all-of-Asia-the-Middle-East-and-Europe-for-the-ego-of-the-Emperor/Khan.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
I've been looking for statistics to show that assertion that for a while now, but I could not find any. Can you by chance point me to them?
Quote from: Zanza on November 19, 2016, 09:44:13 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
I've been looking for statistics to show that assertion that for a while now, but I could not find any. Can you by chance point me to them?
He heard it from a dude selling white boot laces.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
Not usually. They usually are the same groups attacking mosques, so I doubt they would be muslims. Besides, if it were muslims, they would have tied this to Israel, somehow. The use of the word kike suggest english speaking neo-nazi type.
Quote from: viper37 on November 19, 2016, 10:31:35 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
Not usually. They usually are the same groups attacking mosques, so I doubt they would be muslims. Besides, if it were muslims, they would have tied this to Israel, somehow. The use of the word kike suggest english speaking neo-nazi type.
I don't know the Canadian situation very well, so I am happy to take your word for it.
Ethnic Albertans.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 10:39:41 AM
Ethnic Albertans.
What happened to Neil? Sunk by torpedoes?
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
The vast majority of anti-semitic crime in Europe is committed by Muslims. Is that also the case in Canada?
No.
As it happens, incidents like this are bringing the Jewish and Muslim communities together.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
I couldn't disagree more.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
I couldn't disagree more.
I'd ideally have people avoid it, but sometimes turn the other cheek just leaves you dead.
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
I couldn't disagree more.
I'd ideally have people avoid it, but sometimes turn the other cheek just leaves you dead.
Oh I'm not advocating the other cheek. Far from it: throw the book at them. But physical intimidation and vigilante justice place you outside the civilized order.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:30:58 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
I couldn't disagree more.
I'd ideally have people avoid it, but sometimes turn the other cheek just leaves you dead.
Oh I'm not advocating the other cheek. Far from it: throw the book at them. But physical intimidation and vigilante justice place you outside the civilized order.
Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country. :(
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:30:58 AM
Oh I'm not advocating the other cheek. Far from it: throw the book at them. But physical intimidation and vigilante justice place you outside the civilized order.
Fuck that "high road" noise. Curbstomp the shit out of them.
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:34:06 AM
Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country. :(
Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 11:37:43 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:30:58 AM
Oh I'm not advocating the other cheek. Far from it: throw the book at them. But physical intimidation and vigilante justice place you outside the civilized order.
Fuck that "high road" noise. Curbstomp the shit out of them.
The world will be a lot better when rival death squads roam the streets, you're right.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:34:06 AM
Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country. :(
Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.
I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right? :cry:
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:34:06 AM
Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country. :(
Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.
I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right? :cry:
If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.
Gonna make derspicy cry.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
but if they're union thugs trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets, then you have a problem with it?
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:23:27 AMI couldn't disagree more.
I gathered :)
To clarify, I don't think it's the only response - the whole set of civil society responses should be deployed. But when street level racist thugs claim the public space via extra legal methods, then I'm supportive of communities organizing to counter that.
Nor do I think it's the correct response to all manifestations of Fascism/ white nationalism - f. ex. as much as I might loathe an openly white nationalist politician or propagandist I don't support physically attacking them - but I do think it's fine to counter street level intimidation directly.
And finally, when it comes to someone limiting themselves purely to graffiti I don't think - notwithstanding my comment to Ed - that jumping directly to violence is necessary. A "hey what the fuck are you doing, get out of here before we kick you out" is likely sufficient. However, in my experience that only works if you're able and willing to back that up with force because otherwise they'll kick your ass instead.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
It worked in Germany. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:49:45 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:23:27 AMI couldn't disagree more.
I gathered :)
To clarify, I don't think it's the only response - the whole set of civil society responses should be deployed. But when street level racist thugs claim the public space via extra legal methods, then I'm supportive of communities organizing to counter that.
Nor do I think it's the correct response to all manifestations of Fascism/ white nationalism - f. ex. as much as I might loathe an openly white nationalist politician or propagandist I don't support physically attacking them - but I do think it's fine to counter street level intimidation directly.
And finally, when it comes to someone limiting themselves purely to graffiti I don't think - notwithstanding my comment to Ed - that jumping directly to violence is necessary. A "hey what the fuck are you doing, get out of here before we kick you out" is likely sufficient. However, in my experience that only works if you're able and willing to back that up with force because otherwise they'll kick your ass instead.
I think we may be apart only in the ultimate destination. I would view "communities organizing to counter that" as a total failure of civilized society. This is precisely why we give the state the monopoly of violence. Once "communities" assert the right to violence, the state has already started failing like a gangrenous limb.
As noble as the spirit of your community organization is, it legitimizes the violence by the fascists.
That's bullshit. Too many times fascists get to win the street battles, because they don't care about losing the court battles. Romper stompers get their own fucking medicine.
No, you shoot them in the motherfucking face out of the gate.
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2016, 04:26:00 AM
Have you met a leftist before? :huh:
Back when gay bashing was a regular occurrence in my area I also supported people organizing to fight gay bashers.
Is that similarly abhorrent to you?
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:41:29 AMIf people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.
Do you have room in your heart for people being less phlegmatic if they are likely to be one of the casualties - or if they're close to and care about individuals who are likely to be one of the victims?
Not ending up like Nazi Germany is one thing, but being a casualty still sucks and is ideally avoided.
Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.
Quote from: viper37 on November 19, 2016, 11:47:42 AMbut if they're union thugs trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets, then you have a problem with it?
I'm generally supportive of people resisting intimidation and physical violence, including if it's coming from union thugs. That said, I do think white nationalists/ Fascists are particularly bad for a variety of reasons.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:41:29 AMIf people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.
Do you have room in your heart for people being less phlegmatic if they are likely to be one of the casualties - or if they're close to and care about individuals who are likely to be one of the victims?
Not ending up like Nazi Germany is one thing, but being a casualty still sucks and is ideally avoided.
Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.
I can't really tell if we disagree by all that much....
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:07:59 PM
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
That's exactly what a Branch Trumpidian sympathizer would say. Fuck you, Jew-hater.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:07:59 PM
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
That's exactly what a Branch Trumpidian sympathizer would say. Fuck you, Jew-hater.
Well, he's Swiss. They didn't join in in the big Nazi bashing of the 1940's.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:07:59 PM
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
That's exactly what a Branch Trumpidian sympathizer would say. Fuck you, Jew-hater.
I hate to break it to you, but half my family is Jewish. Asshole.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:17:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:07:59 PM
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
That's exactly what a Branch Trumpidian sympathizer would say. Fuck you, Jew-hater.
I hate to break it to you, but half my family is Jewish. Asshole.
OK Jesus.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:17:40 PM
I hate to break it to you, but half my family is Jewish. Asshole.
Funny, that never seems to stop you cuntinental Euros from being fascist sympathizers.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:17:40 PM
I hate to break it to you, but half my family is Jewish. Asshole.
Funny, that never seems to stop you cuntinental Euros from being fascist sympathizers.
America is currently winning the fascism sweepstakes. I'll smugly cherish my liberty from a distance.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:20:33 PM
America is currently winning the fascism sweepstakes. I'll smugly cherish my liberty from a distance.
Don't worry, alt-right cockmuncher. The radioactive fallout from the 2019 detonations in France will eventually get to you.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:27:12 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:20:33 PM
America is currently winning the fascism sweepstakes. I'll smugly cherish my liberty from a distance.
Don't worry, alt-right cockmuncher. The radioactive fallout from the 2019 detonations in France will eventually get to you.
And you might actually be able to buy cheap real estate in a few years.
Probably from some of your non-white neighbors, since they'll be in a camp.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:28:24 PM
And you might actually be able to buy cheap real estate in a few years. Probably from some of your non-white neighbors, since they'll be in a camp.
Don't you have some banking to do? Deposit some gold fillings or something?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:28:24 PM
And you might actually be able to buy cheap real estate in a few years. Probably from some of your non-white neighbors, since they'll be in a camp.
Don't you have some banking to do? Deposit some gold filings or something?
Don't let your frustration out on me, go yell at Spicy's family or something.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:32:39 PM
Don't let your frustration out on me, go yell at Spicy's family or something.
It's your trollboat too. Now go get caught in an avalanche or something, or whatever the fuck it is you montagnards do when you're pretending you're not earning interest on dead Jew money.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2016, 12:40:04 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:32:39 PM
Don't let your frustration out on me, go yell at Spicy's family or something.
It's your trollboat too. Now go get caught in an avalanche or something, or whatever the fuck it is you montagnards do when you're pretending you're not earning interest on dead Jew money.
I've never talked about it here because I never thought it was relevant, but you are deeply insulting me and my family right now.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:42:35 PM
I've never talked about it here because I never thought it was relevant, but you are deeply insulting me and my family right now.
Big fucking deal, fuck you and your feelings, you alt-right fanboi fuck. Assfucks like you just continue to reinforce the premise that all Europeans are antisemites, and Europeans with Jewish blood are just well-disciplined antisemites.
Deeply insulting. Go fuck yourself.
I suggest you go away and rethink some things. You shouldn't be angry with me, you should be angry with people like spicy. Genuine liberals like me are, or at least should be, your best allies in this shitty situation.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
I suggest you go away and rethink some things. You shouldn't be angry with me, you should be angry with people like spicy. Genuine liberals like me are, or at least should be, your best allies in this shitty situation.
You don't seem like a very good ally. A fickle one perhaps.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
I suggest you go away and rethink some things. You shouldn't be angry with me, you should be angry with people like spicy. Genuine liberals like me are, or at least should be, your best allies in this shitty situation.
I suggest you go fuck your deeply insulted self, Heidi.
Seems like they've arrested a suspect now :)
Hami - I hope to continue the conversation with you, but I have to go shopping for mittens for my son.
I don't think a street gang should do what's best left to the almighty.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 01:32:10 PM
Seems like they've arrested a suspect now :)
Hami - I hope to continue the conversation with you, but I have to go shopping for mittens for my son.
For some reason I found that hilarious, and cute :hug: Congrats on the baby! I might be a wee tad behind the times, sorry.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/ottawa-police-arrest-young-offender-in-connection-to-week-long-series-of-swastika-tags-on-jewish-sites
Quote from: Josephus on November 19, 2016, 02:40:43 PM
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/ottawa-police-arrest-young-offender-in-connection-to-week-long-series-of-swastika-tags-on-jewish-sites
Canada has graffiti removal workers.
Anyone know what 14 88 Niggers is supposed to mean?
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AMReally, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.
I couldn't disagree more.
I'd ideally have people avoid it, but sometimes turn the other cheek just leaves you dead.
I always thought that Jesus really should've been more clear with that one. You turn the other cheek once, just to make sure that the person is really intent on hurting you before you engage in potentially unnecessary escalation. You don't keep alternating the cheeks after the second time, now you slap back and maybe even pull hair.
14: for the "Fourtheen Words" of the (Neo) Nazi Creed ("We Must Secure The Existence Of Our People And A Future For White Children.").
88 = HH = Heil Hitler.
It's become quite widespread in the altright / neonazis circle as a code word of pride.
Know your enemy.
I knew 88, but thanks Oexmelin for other.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 11:54:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2016, 04:26:00 AM
Have you met a leftist before? :huh:
Back when gay bashing was a regular occurrence in my area I also supported people organizing to fight gay bashers.
Is that similarly abhorrent to you?
Well, I was being needlessly snarky. I apologise.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
I suggest you go away and rethink some things. You shouldn't be angry with me, you should be angry with people like spicy. Genuine liberals like me are, or at least should be, your best allies in this shitty situation.
Hey now-- what did I do?
Quote from: derspiess on November 19, 2016, 05:08:22 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
I suggest you go away and rethink some things. You shouldn't be angry with me, you should be angry with people like spicy. Genuine liberals like me are, or at least should be, your best allies in this shitty situation.
Hey now-- what did I do?
LOL I suppose Hami is throwing you under the bus. :D
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
Genuine liberals like me are, or at least should be, your best allies in this shitty situation.
Saying that you have genuine liberals like Hamilcar for allies is just another way of saying you're about to be stabbed in the back.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 04:24:16 AM
Really, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.
Better for violent people like Ed & Jacob to let out their aggression on the internet than in a physical form. :P
I'm a jerk offline too. :)
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:52:28 AMI think we may be apart only in the ultimate destination. I would view "communities organizing to counter that" as a total failure of civilized society. This is precisely why we give the state the monopoly of violence. Once "communities" assert the right to violence, the state has already started failing like a gangrenous limb.
As noble as the spirit of your community organization is, it legitimizes the violence by the fascists.
I think in the face of organized fascist violence and intimidation, that noble sentiment amounts to "well-meaning but ineffective liberal handwringing".
To clarify, I don't think fighting fascists in the streets is the go-to response in all cases, but when the price of continual intimidation is acceptable for fascist thugs (i.e. it doesn't quite rise to the level of triggering official responses, or they carry it out on a wide enough scale and find the official punishment an acceptable cost of doing business and thus carry on) then it's an appropriate response IMO.
*That* said, in this particular case the response from civil society was encouragingly strong, and apparently they have the likely perp in custody so it seems there's no need for that kind of response; but I still consider it a viable option to keep on the table in the right circumstances.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:07:59 PM
I can't really tell if we disagree by all that much....
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
I don't at all advocate forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up.
A street fighting response is only, IMO, appropriate when fascists thugs are making a community unsafe through violence and vandalism.
Quote from: Zoupa on November 19, 2016, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 01:32:10 PM
Seems like they've arrested a suspect now :)
Hami - I hope to continue the conversation with you, but I have to go shopping for mittens for my son.
For some reason I found that hilarious, and cute :hug: Congrats on the baby! I might be a wee tad behind the times, sorry.
:hug:
A bit behind the times, yeah - he turned three last month :)
That's OK, Berkut's a lot older than that, and he still types with his on.
Berk's spontaneously combusts.
In theory, I believe that members of a community have the right to organize to protect themselves against criminal elements (whether or not those committing the crimes have a political/ideological motivation) if the state fails to do its duty to protect its citizens. In practice, I think it has to be extremely clear that the state is unwilling or unable to do its job before we resort to vigilantism. Our justice system isn't perfect, but I figure a jury is less likely to convict the wrong person than a vigilante mob is to get the wrong guy.
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2016, 04:34:06 PM
Well, I was being needlessly snarky. I apologise.
Apology accepted :hug:
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:34:06 AM
Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country. :(
Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.
I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right? :cry:
If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.
Yeah, Nazi Germany was a kind and sensitive person-nation that lost big, permanently lost German territory and saw Germany split in two for a generation. Trump America is going to win so much you won't even believe it.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 12:07:59 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:41:29 AMIf people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.
Do you have room in your heart for people being less phlegmatic if they are likely to be one of the casualties - or if they're close to and care about individuals who are likely to be one of the victims?
Not ending up like Nazi Germany is one thing, but being a casualty still sucks and is ideally avoided.
Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.
I can't really tell if we disagree by all that much....
I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.
The Trump supporters have all the guns and most of the dudes prone to knowing how to handle themselves in a fight. Not sure a bunch of demisexual genderfluid college students, black women, Latinos are going to fare so well against all the dudes with crew cuts, pick up trucks, and all the guns.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 20, 2016, 11:08:14 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 19, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2016, 11:34:06 AM
Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country. :(
Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.
I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right? :cry:
If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.
Yeah, Nazi Germany was a kind and sensitive person-nation that lost big, permanently lost German territory and saw Germany split in two for a generation. Trump America is going to win so much you won't even believe it.
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
Yes, it happened in Canada. But one would have to be wilfully blind to accept the proposition that it has nothing to do with the US.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 22, 2016, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
Yes, it happened in Canada. But one would have to be wilfully blind to accept the proposition that it has nothing to do with the US.
Are you blaming anti-Semitism in Canada on the US?
I think anti-semites and other racists in the West have taken heart from Trump's victory. They are certainly a local responsibility, but they definitely respond to events in the US... much like many of them respond well to Russian propaganda and funding.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2016, 12:02:14 PM
Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.
In the 90s, the main white supremacist organization in Canada, the Heritage Front, was infiltrated by the CSIS. Others were infiltrated by other agencies. I remember the fights between the Anti-facist league and the skinheads in Montreal, and they never achieved anything, except getting a few guys killed on each side. Eventually, these groups had ties with other criminal elements and were dismantled by police investigation or murder.
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
yes, we are two distinct countries with a physical and cultural firewall between us. Nothing comes from the US to Canada, be it people or thoughts. No US tv show or newsfeed comes into Canada. No newspaper or american website dedicated to news can be seen in Canada. If you ask the average Canadian "Who is Donald Trump?", they'll probably tell you it's a Disney cartoon character, showing the total isolation in which Canadians live.
I think we got "fuck her in the pussy" from youse guys.
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2016, 02:20:21 PM
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
yes, we are two distinct countries with a physical and cultural firewall between us. Nothing comes from the US to Canada, be it people or thoughts. No US tv show or newsfeed comes into Canada. No newspaper or american website dedicated to news can be seen in Canada. If you ask the average Canadian "Who is Donald Trump?", they'll probably tell you it's a Disney cartoon character, showing the total isolation in which Canadians live.
Not sure if serious. :unsure:
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2016, 02:17:52 PM
In the 90s, the main white supremacist organization in Canada, the Heritage Front, was infiltrated by the CSIS. Others were infiltrated by other agencies. I remember the fights between the Anti-facist league and the skinheads in Montreal, and they never achieved anything, except getting a few guys killed on each side. Eventually, these groups had ties with other criminal elements and were dismantled by police investigation or murder.
I remember those times well, yes :)
Heh, clashes between skinheads and anti-fascist groups where a thing in Barcelona during the early to mid-90s too, my neighborhood in particular was quite problematic. Guy got murdered a few metres from my doorstep, and I had often played football with the skinheads that got arrested for it.
Quote from: The Brain on November 22, 2016, 04:52:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2016, 02:20:21 PM
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
yes, we are two distinct countries with a physical and cultural firewall between us. Nothing comes from the US to Canada, be it people or thoughts. No US tv show or newsfeed comes into Canada. No newspaper or american website dedicated to news can be seen in Canada. If you ask the average Canadian "Who is Donald Trump?", they'll probably tell you it's a Disney cartoon character, showing the total isolation in which Canadians live.
Not sure if serious. :unsure:
Think about it a little more ;)
Quote from: viper37 on November 23, 2016, 10:25:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 22, 2016, 04:52:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2016, 02:20:21 PM
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.
yes, we are two distinct countries with a physical and cultural firewall between us. Nothing comes from the US to Canada, be it people or thoughts. No US tv show or newsfeed comes into Canada. No newspaper or american website dedicated to news can be seen in Canada. If you ask the average Canadian "Who is Donald Trump?", they'll probably tell you it's a Disney cartoon character, showing the total isolation in which Canadians live.
Not sure if serious. :unsure:
Think about it a little more ;)
:hmm: